Bring it on! I'll take your helping of both Evang!
Been Thinkin
I love fried okra, but boiled okra, and tomatoes, never let it be once named among us.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Unfortunately the church board only consist of three men! It seems to me a church running approximately 800 should have a dozen or more board members (just my opinion). I think none of the board members should be related to the pastor or each other. Shouldn't be hard in a congregation of that size.
When Bro Black resigned it was definitely a shock to many of us because we had no idea anything was even going on. To many apparently at least 100 (since that's the number of people it takes to bring a petition of no confidence) it was no shock! Well maybe that he resigned instead of fighting it. The church has not crumbled but is regrouping with the TN HQ assisting in the transition process. Every individual will process the situation in their own way but I can assure you that TB was and is loved. I've seen him handle people so lovingly and diplomatically. I've seen him protect his flock from allowing judgmental attitudes taking over in an unfortunate situation. I've heard him direct the church to not kick a person when they are down but to love them and pray for them and not talk bad about them.
I wish I could say I know what happened but I don't. I know I lost my pastor, I don't know where he is or how he's doing. My children have lost their youth pastor and his wife who from all I can gather did absolutely nothing wrong. We've lost another leadership pastor and his wife who also have no accusations of wrong doing! The original two preachers that were helping us immediately after the resignation and were expected to be with us up to six months are also gone suddenly! Time will tell how people will handle things during the process of getting a new pastor. I'm sure it won't be easy because of the size alone of the congregation it will be a challenge for any man of God especially since we lost so much of our experienced staff that could have helped a new pastor through the orientation and settling in. I know this, I feel like I've been sucker punched to the point of being disoriented in my own church. I never know who to expect to be in the pulpit and the ones that are there are strangers to me. I'm supposed to trust God to lead us through the process of finding a new pastor but since I trusted Him when I came to TPC I wonder if I have a clue as to what God's will is. I know I can trust Jesus I just question the way organized religion does things. I wonder if I've been misled to trust to much. I fight my flesh and wonder if I can even know the will of God for our lives right now. I know I'm going to keep on striving for the mark of the high calling! I know I'll pray and read the Word and for now keep still and know that He is God and wait on modern men to work through a business like process all the while praying they will use wisdom and love and the Spirit of God to make tons of decisions and probably rewrite another ton of policies to avoid a similar situation and pray a hedge of protection over my family to protect us while we seek His face! I know this is long but I guess it's my way of working it out in my mind.
The best advice that I can give you is TRUST GOD! And, you are right, hopefully, a better structure for business can be put in place for the future.
Keep focused on God and seek him and you, your family and the church will be fine.
__________________
Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
I love fried okra, but boiled okra, and tomatoes, never let it be once named among us.
Yuk!!!!!
__________________
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
The best advice that I can give you is TRUST GOD! And, you are right, hopefully, a better structure for business can be put in place for the future.
Keep focused on God and seek him and you, your family and the church will be fine.
I believe a lot of the criticism has been obfuscated by some here. We discussed should a fallen Pastor be re-instated to his office and the result were some accusing others of saying the man is beyond forgiveness
We discussed issues like money and suddenly everyone is labeled a pastor hater by a Pastor.
I think part of our problem is a culture of "Pastor worship" for some. By that I mean, the Pastor was elevated SO high when the focus should have been exclusively on God. People have a hard time moving on when the Pastor falls, when he lets them down. I know people who get bent out of shape if the Pastor did not shake their hand enough. Both the congregation and the Pastor are responsible for letting it get that far.
The Pastor is a man too and subject to pride, being put in such a position of power and adoration just adds to that.
I've heard of congregations falling apart because a beloved Pastor started a new work in another city and had a new pastor take over. Some even left that church to follow him to the new city.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
I believe a lot of the criticism has been obfuscated by some here. We discussed should a fallen Pastor be re-instated to his office and the result were some accusing others of saying the man is beyond forgiveness
We discussed issues like money and suddenly everyone is labeled a pastor hater by a Pastor.
I think part of our problem is a culture of "Pastor worship" for some. By that I mean, the Pastor was elevated SO high when the focus should have been exclusively on God. People have a hard time moving on when the Pastor falls, when he lets them down. I know people who get bent out of shape if the Pastor did not shake their hand enough. Both the congregation and the Pastor are responsible for letting it get that far.
The Pastor is a man too and subject to pride, being put in such a position of power and adoration just adds to that.
I've heard of congregations falling apart because a beloved Pastor started a new work in another city and had a new pastor take over. Some even left that church to follow him to the new city.
Don't know who you had reference to (the bolded) but please make sure it's not me. I do disagree with many statements made against the Pastor but I don't think I went as far as you stated above. If I did please show it to me and I will repent and ask your forgiveness.
I just simply think maybe the following scripture might apply. Romans 13:7 ¶ Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (And the saint is due honor, too.)
Romans 12 speaks about the body and the ministry. And it would seem that some think the "head," and I hesitate to use that part of the body, is of no more importance than the big toe. The big toe will not function without the head being in operation. And yes, there are some Pastors who would be qualified as having "the big head syndrome!"
Just thinkin"
Been Thinkin
__________________
"From the time you're born, 'til you ride in the hearse, there ain't nothing bad that couldn't be worse!"
LIFE: Some days you're the dog and some days you're the hydrant!
I have ... Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia! The fear of long words.
"Prediction is very hard, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra
"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave in reflection." - Thomas Paine
Unfortunately, in an organization, the organization's manual is "the bible". Not, THE BIBLE. An organization is not worried about the man or the family. Only the organization. I grew up in the UPC and have seen so many of these same situations happen through the years to good good men. At the end of the day we are all "flesh". WORRY about the ones that have TB on the chopping block == you can bet there are skeletons they have.
REAL christians and especially REAL preachers will be like a doctor and flip into "rescue" mode. That is what the church is...a hospital for the wounded. But, the church and especially organizations loose that focus. Sad, but church politics reign supreme. The wounded ARE left to die.
Let us search out Jesus' heart. For REAL. Too much opinion, and not enough scriptural foundation.
When I asked a question what does Galatians 6:1 mean to you....answers were very carnal. One person said I am all for restoration IF.....there was no IF stated in Galatians 6:1. It was a directive....ye that are SPIRITUAL, restore. I guess that (SPIRITUAL) is the problem.
One cannot restore another if the fallen brother plays the victim, acts as if he and his family have been mistreated and been treated unfairly. If one does not humble himself and in contrition admit there's been a gross breach in character and trust, if one attacks those who brought his sins into the light as though they are vermin and should be shot, I think those that are spiritual will realize you cannot restore one who is full of pride and anger. Sure, anyone who is a Christian wants to see any fallen believer restored. But until the backslider comes to his senses and realizes he must first rise and return to His Father, all we can do is hope and pray the man acknowledges he needs restoration.
I don't believe that means he qualifies to ever grace another pulpit and speak with authority. Some errors are so egregious, leadership in the church is forever forfeited. That doesn't mean they can't be a part of Body of Christ. Restoration to the Church and restoration to the ministry are two separate issues.
First, I would like to address whomever said I was bitter and perhaps with a bunch of friends licking our wounds. This couldn't be farther from the truth. I am not bitter, just observant. I have no axe to grind with anyone. I have many friends and family in the UPCI and have no intention on ending those relationships. I acknowledge that there are very many good men and women in that fellowship. I was merely pointing out, that at close of day, The UPCI manual becomes more relied upon than THE WORD! No one can deny that if they are living in reality. No matter how you cut it, there are alot of man made rules and standards that have nothing to do with the Word. It puts people looking and making sure the outside is more important than the inside in alot of instances. NOT sterotyping all UPCI folks either. Please read - alot of instance.
I am not "standard free" I believe in outward and inward holiness. Enough on that subject.
Forgiveness was never in question. However, restoration is. No one can say that relationships in the family will not be restored. That would not be our call, that would be the family. Money misuse.....IF that is proven that would be up to that church. Nobody here can be in judgement of what has been repented for. That is between a person and their God. We don't know. We can't judge that. Time will tell all of that. It just deeply disturbs me that 75 pages of posts, and maybe 3 or 4 about restoration - and oddly, seemed to come from the people from his church, that loved him the most. That is all.
Oftentimes the UPC manual becomes a political tool to use against enemies, a means to control District officials, a way to maintain the status quo, to promote legalism. And usually those same people violate the same manual they use to accuse others.
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