The conclusion that the holiday is adapted paganism is foregone.
But some, apparently, feel that after a certain amount of time is past then this is no longer an issue.
Is there more info you need beyond that?
I think missourimary thought you contradicted yourself in the two quotes she made from you that she emboldened.
I thought your response to me earlier, saying you thanked me for my point that if the accusatory demeanor against those who have no intention of worshiping a false god is not in your assessment of us, then our words against such legalism did not apply to you. But now you mistaken our point with a strawman argument and claim we believe pagan practices are fine after a few centuries, when that is not our point at all.
It is not a matter of time passing that makes the activity moot in our minds. If that was true, then we are taking conscious effort to worship a false god and think we can still worship this false god after so many centuries, but not when the false worship was new, which is not what we are doing. This clearly shows you miss our point entirely.
It is the intentions of the people involved that make it moot when there is no inkling of worship or honour of false gods. Why does the Lord discern our thoughts and intents if He could care less what we intend, and judges us as pagans when we do something similar in activity for which we have no intention of honouring any false god?
The common denominator between Paul's allowance for eating meats offered to idols and it being a moot point when people have Christmas is the intention towards any false god is fully absent, and our hearts are solely focused on pleasing the one true God alone while we simply enjoy giving gifts, which is not even worshiping Jesus by doing so! How can it be false worship to a false god when the heart absolutely sees no such thing in it?
It is the same thing as speaking "MONDAY" on the second day of the week, when such a thing ORIGINATED in paganism. Try as one might, they cannot make any difference between christmas and the days of the week. (But I guess we can excuse things like that since it is allegedly impossible to avoid. So when it is impossible to not worship a false god, you folks claim it is okay to do so, for there is no difference in the lack of intention towards idols in speaking the days of the week any more than involvement in activities at Christmas, but you claim such activities at Christmas make us heathens.)
Refraining from holidays is not legalism, but declaring that one is worshiping a false god when the heart has simply no intention towards such a thing is indeed extreme legalism. What could be more extremely legalistic than accusing someone of idol worship when one's heart has been fully directed towards the one true God but did something physically, without intent to do so, that looked similar to what pagans did to their false gods, and equating them as one and the same with that pagan worshiper? Hooboy!
How many other things do we do on a daily basis, without any intention to worship a false god, that are reminiscent of activities from pagan worship? Maybe waving a hand on Thursday at 3pm was done in honour to the god thor. We better find out! Otherwise we could be judged for honouring thor when we wave at someone on a Thursday afternoon at 3pm, whether we only waved at John Doe or not. Oh, and we better change the names of the planets, for they're named after false gods as well. Then there's the months! False god names as well!
If these myriad of other things we do unconsciously, that are reminiscent of false god worship, will not see us judged for idolatry, then what is the difference between that and giving gifts under a decorated tree without any intention whatsoever of worshiping any god?
There's still some more legalism some folks need to come out of.
'Nuff said. No sense saying any more.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
I haven't kept up on the thread, but it seems the main underlying issue here is that some of us don't consider Christmas a pagan holiday and others do. Therefore, when verses are used that talk about "observing days" some say they didn't observe pagan days and others say it's widely known as a Christian holiday or that they are celebrating or commemorating Jesus' birth.
I don't think that, with that difference of opinion underlying the discussion, that everyone will ever come to agreement on this topic. It may be one of those things that we should agree to disagree on.
Yeah, but it's a forum annual decembers tradition.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
Is there other pagan customs we can christianize as long as we don't intend to worship a false God?
Can a converted buddhist continue with buddhist customs as long as his heart is not worshipping buddha?
How long out from pagan intent is a custom harmless? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?
I don't know many buddhist customs..... but let's say that he sat cross-legged to meditate, and that was part of his custom. If he can, as a Christian, sit that same way and pray to GOD.... yeah, no harm in that custom.
If a custom isn't in and of itself sinful, I don't see why it can't be transformed into worship for God.
Is there other pagan customs we can christianize as long as we don't intend to worship a false God?
I do not even see it as christianizing anything. It's giving gifts beneath a decorated tree.
Quote:
Can a converted buddhist continue with buddhist customs as long as his heart is not worshipping buddha?
If buddhists waved their hands to buddha on Saturday afternoon at 1:46am in some form of worship, that does not mean former buddhists cannot wave at a friend at 1:46am on saturday Morning. That is really all it amounts to.
Quote:
How long out from pagan intent is a custom harmless? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?
It has nothing to do with time. If someone worshiped a pagan tree god by putting sacrifices beneath a decorated tree, then left that false faith, and two hours later put a gift beneath a decorated tree for a friend, there is nothing wrong with that second act. All anyone can do is distort the point we are making and change it into some strawman like time passing to condone a ritual used in worship.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
If buddhists waved their hands to buddha on Saturday afternoon at 1:46am in some form of worship, that does not mean former buddhists cannot wave at a friend at 1:46am on saturday Morning. That is really all it amounts to.
. . .
And that about sums it up!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I do not even see it as christianizing anything. It's giving gifts beneath a decorated tree.
If buddhists waved their hands to buddha on Saturday afternoon at 1:46am in some form of worship, that does not mean former buddhists cannot wave at a friend at 1:46am on saturday Morning. That is really all it amounts to.
It has nothing to do with time. If someone worshiped a pagan tree god by putting sacrifices beneath a decorated tree, then left that false faith, and two hours later put a gift beneath a decorated tree for a friend, there is nothing wrong with that second act. All anyone can do is distort the point we are making and change it into some strawman like time passing to condone a ritual used in worship.
I know we can go down alot of rabbit trails of what if's, but what if one burnt an incense unto buddha today got coverted tonight but tomorrow say they burning it unto Christ?
Most truely converted pagan person would hold unto their idolatrous ways. Something about abstain from idols would mean something to them.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
What would such like mean? I have no doubts a true converted pagan would not want anything to do with "such like" their past pagan customs.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
I know we can go down alot of rabbit trails of what if's, but what if one burnt an incense unto buddha today got coverted tonight but tomorrow say they burning it unto Christ?
I never said anything about burning incense to Christ. In fact, I have emphasized all along the concept of simply giving gifts to each other beneath a decorated tree. No worship to God involved. The more correct comparison you should make is that if a former buddhist liked the smell of the incense, and simply burned it for the sake of the aroma, without any reference to Christ at all.
Quote:
Most truely converted pagan person would hold unto their idolatrous ways. Something about abstain from idols would mean something to them.
Only because of a weak conscience.
Quote:
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
What would such like mean? I have no doubts a true converted pagan would not want anything to do with "such like" their past pagan customs.
If they had a weak conscience, sure.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
I never said anything about burning incense to Christ. In fact, I have emphasized all along the concept of simply giving gifts to each other beneath a decorated tree. No worship to God involved. The more correct comparison you should make is that if a former buddhist liked the smell of the incense, and simply burned it for the sake of the aroma, without any reference to Christ at all.
Only because of a weak conscience.
If they had a weak conscience, sure.
So one who gives up his pagan customs has a weak conscious? Oh the poer of the christmas spirit and the length gone to misapply scripture for that magical time of year.
I think diggin4truth gave a great post regarding romans 14. see if I can find it.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
waving hands does not compare to pagan customs
Hybrid Mode
