A Wrecked Church!

[Praxeas]

A local church here pulled out of the UPCI and several members I know were not even aware

[Steve Epley]

They were in the ALJC for many years. The members didn't know they were out of it until shortly before the pastor died. A lawyer said the by-laws where not worth the paper they are written on. He also said everything "they are doing is illegal". This lawyer is a very well known and very busy lawyer, and is out of town a lot. He can't take the case, because he has left to go to WA, for some time, and we need someone now. Talking with another one, but you have to have a certain kind of lawyer.

Lawyers don't like to get mired down in church disputes. They can work themselves to the bone and the next thing they know someone had a prayer meeting and everything they worked for is forgiven and gone. Those are facts. OR the exact opposite they can work tirelessly and no one is made happy.
ANY bylaws can be voted out one meeting.

[Falla39]

The former late pastor did not give the mantle to the "local" preacher. The late pastor had been sick for quiet some time, some dementia even. This was his daughter's choice. He even said to the members that he did not think ***** was able to pastor a church. But, he always did what his daughter wanted.

And therein could be most of the problem, IMHO! Doing what his daughter wanted instead of following the leading of the Spirit! If we are not being led by the Spirit of GOD, then who? Disasterous!

Falla39

[rgcraig]

And therein could be most of the problem, IMHO! Doing what his daughter wanted instead of following the leading of the Spirit! If we are not being led by the Spirit of GOD, then who? Disasterous!

Falla39

But, to defend this minister he has been ill for a time and like Rapture said, even a touch of dementia.

[Falla39]

But, to defend this minister he has been ill for a time and like Rapture said, even a touch of dementia.

But, he always did what his daughter wanted.

I was responding to the ALWAYS, I guess!

[ILG]

I have a great heckling story. I was at a UPC revival in London England in 1977. (I don't want to give details of this story because I still have some portion of anonymity on here) and one night a young man and two young women probably in their early 20's showed up for the service.

During the preaching the young man began to heckle the UPC preacher visiting from the United States. Rather than kick the young man out or get angry the preacher (who is a really cool guy)used his sense of humor to respond directly back to the young man in a humorous but kind way.

This went on for a few minutes but eventually the young man shut up. Fast forward years later and after some big UPC meeting in the USA a man came up to this preacher and said "you don't know who I am do you?" To which my preacher friend replied no. The guy went on to say he was that young man who had heckled the preacher in London. He had been so moved by the message and the kind godly way this preacher handled his heckling that not too long after that meeting he gave his life to the Lord and became a Christian. Not an every day occurrence in London I assure you. When we were passing out fliers inviting people to that revival I had never met so many agnostic and atheist people in my life!

That's cool. ;)

[ILG]

I want everyone to continue to pray for the people of the "wrecked Church". They are in desperate need of prayer. These are spirit feeled, lovely, sweet, mostly older people of God. Pray, not just that they can keep their church, but for the healing of their souls, minds and health. People are saying this is gossip, but I'm telling you, it is the truth. Call some of the faithful warriors in the church and they will tell you. The truth needs to be told, so this can not happen anywhere else. People's souls are at risk, and life is too short, whe never know when our time will come. Some of these saints have been at this church since the beginning, 58 yrs ago, in an old small house. They have raised their children and grandchildren, and lost their husbands there. After working to build the church and going and being faithful all these years, they are told now that they do not have a say in anything. Only the men are allowed to vote, by invitation only, Monday night. Anyone that didn't receive an invitation will not be allowed on the property. Here goes:
The pastor, who everyone loved ,died. He had picked an assistant pastor of his daughter's choice, a good friend of hers. She would not let him put one of his family in. She would remind him that he promised. And, people did
hear this, each time. After he died, she had the church to vote on him as pastor, For several reasons they did not want him. Her, and him had a vote with the members anyway. They had everyone to put their names on the ballot. Even after throwing out some votes by her, he lost. Thy continued on as before. The majority of the people wrote a letter and signed a petition for a very well respected Bishop from MI to come and be the interium pastor. The daughter called him and threatened to sue if he came down. He backed off. Now, they have come up with a solution to put her friend in. They have sent out invitation only to the men to vote. They say they are going by the by-laws written in the 50's when the church was in an organization. One of the laws, are that the secretary has to be man. The daughter isn't a man, and has handled the books, and money, after leaving her job as RN many,many years ago.
Some of the members that have spoken out, have been sent letters informing them they are no longer allowed to be on the property. Some because they got up and left when a preacher was chastizing them. There are 4 members on the board. The board was appointed by the late pastor, never voted on by the church. The one trying to get voted on for pastor is on the board. One of the other, admits he has never had the Holy Ghost. No preacher will come in and take up for the saints. They say they don't want to get involved.
Like I said, they are heart broken, but are planning on leaving there, because of the leadership. They are going for the last time tomorrow. We need your prayers for strength. The bible says "In the last days the love of many will wax cold", and thats why they will treat the saints like they do.

Why did they have a vote on this preacher? Why did the board simply not appoint him? I am not finding any fault in what you wrote and not saying anything pro or con. I am just asking and wondering.

[ILG]

I know this is none of my business but what organization was this church in when it had those bylaws? If the bylaws are still valid and the person (daughter) who has taken over and is running things now is in violation of those bylaws, and there is now no higher organizational level they can appeal to, this may have to go into a secular court. People who have invested time and money in that building have something coming to them. If they are split into two groups, one group may have to buy the other out in order to retain use of the building. This may have gone as far as it can without outside legal intervention.

We had a situation here in Cincinnati with an ALJC church where one member asked to see the books. He wanted to know what some of the salaries were. When he requested this he was disfellowshipped and then told he could not see the books because he was no longer a member. He wound up going to court and the church had to give him he information he requested.

A church in a nearby city had a split over doctrine. Branhamism came in and some accepted it and some did not. It wound up going to civil court. One group got to keep the building but they had to pay the other group for their equity in the building.

I know this is going before secular courts but we're already involved with secular law the way we are organized with tax exempt status, etc.

I have a suggestion. When we were going through our issues, our by-laws stipulated that we use mediation to resolve issues rather than a secular court. There are mediation organizations. When we went to court for the first lawsuit, the judge threw the lawsuit out based on the need to go to arbitration based on our bylaws. (The people who filed the suit claimed we "refused to go" so they "had" to file). However, when we put up the funds and picked a couple of arbiters, we never heard from them again for months. Then, all of a sudden, they refiled the suit.

Anyway, there are other ways to resolve the issue than law. You can use an organization that does mediation and/or binding arbitration.

[ILG]

Since this church is most affiliated with the ALJC, perhaps some of the higher-ups (I shudder to say that, knowing my own situation....) could perhaps have a hearing as such over this situation. I personally think it would be better to get a jury of about 7 non-biased blue collar workers from an ALJC church and have a trial and a vote with an official simply presiding. This way it stays in the church and let both sides let the results be binding.

[Rapture 1]

The board did try to appoint him, and the majority of the people said no, so they finally agreed to a vote( the daughter and *****and the "board"), but he lost. If you weren't there you would never believe the scene the daughter and her friend made. As I said, tomorrow is most of the peoples last day, and they are leaving after Sunday School. The daughter has been calling some of them and asking for their tithes. I'm sorta glad it is coming to an end, so these good people can come together and worship without all this evil spirit in the church. I can remember over the years all the singing and shouting,and speaking in tongues, everyone loving one another. We used to have a great choir, and was asked to sing at other churches. A great time with great memories! I do not want these great people to get bitter and lose out because of about 20 people. We are all going to make it and be better people and christians as a result. The other one's, God have mercy, I wouldn't want to be in their place.

[Margies3]

WOW! how old is this daughter anyway? she sounds to me like she might be the one who is getting a bit senile! Who, in their right mind, calls the saints to ask them for their tithes - especially when you know that you've already ticked them off! Fruity if you ask me!

[ILG]

The board did try to appoint him, and the majority of the people said no, so they finally agreed to a vote( the daughter and *****and the "board"), but he lost. If you weren't there you would never believe the scene the daughter and her friend made. As I said, tomorrow is most of the peoples last day, and they are leaving after Sunday School. The daughter has been calling some of them and asking for their tithes. I'm sorta glad it is coming to an end, so these good people can come together and worship without all this evil spirit in the church. I can remember over the years all the singing and shouting,and speaking in tongues, everyone loving one another. We used to have a great choir, and was asked to sing at other churches. A great time with great memories! I do not want these great people to get bitter and lose out because of about 20 people. We are all going to make it and be better people and christians as a result. The other one's, God have mercy, I wouldn't want to be in their place.

I see, so they already tried the board route and there was a backlash. Oh, I would believe the scene. Truth is always stranger than fiction. I'm not sure why anybody is going tomorrow but I hope you can all find peace.

[ILG]

WOW! how old is this daughter anyway? she sounds to me like she might be the one who is getting a bit senile! Who, in their right mind, calls the saints to ask them for their tithes - especially when you know that you've already ticked them off! Fruity if you ask me!

Well, maybe she wants to kick some more people out. ;)

[Rapture 1]

Some of the ladies are going because one of them that was "kicked out" said she is going anyway, and they are worried that something might happen. Also, the wife and daughter are going to take down Bro ****** picture. It is hanging in the Fellowship Hall which is named for him. He would turn over in his grave if he could see what is happening now. He has been gone 28 long years, but never forgotten. When he preached, he would stand on the alter bench, reach way down, and sing "When He Reached Down His Hands For Me". What a great, great man, he would never in a million years have hurt anyone. He is missed. ( The daughter is almost 60)

[ILG]

Some of the ladies are going because one of them that was "kicked out" said she is going anyway, and they are worried that something might happen. Also, the wife and daughter are going to take down Bro ****** picture. It is hanging in the Fellowship Hall which is named for him. He would turn over in his grave if he could see what is happening now. He has been gone 28 long years, but never forgotten. When he preached, he would stand on the alter bench, reach way down, and sing "When He Reached Down His Hands For Me". What a great, great man, he would never in a million years have hurt anyone. He is missed. ( The daughter is almost 60)

The wife and daughter of the recently passed pastor are taking down the picture of what person who has been gone for 28 years? (Sorry just trying to understand.)

[ILG]

Here is my life from churches and districts and all that. Think twice before you go back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD2IG0oVn2Y

"Wounded"

You plowed over me like a tractor
You used me up and put me out to pasture
I'm left to eat your dust
Guess you're thinkin' that we must be done
You said you got my back every minute
Well you do
You've got it there to put your dagger in it
And knowing what i need
Still you stood and watched me bleed

[Chorus:]
Wounded, I'm wounded
I'm battered and broken and bruised
Wounded, I'm wounded
All tore up inside over you
Wonderin' why you do me like you do

I feel betrayed and so manipulated
I call a spade a spade, you call me jaded
Well, what do you expect
You give me no respect

[Chorus]

And this monkey on my back
Has stopped me in my tracks

[Chorus]

[CC1]

T The daughter has been calling some of them and asking for their tithes.

Ha! If I were one of those saints and the daughter called me asking for tithes she would get the rebuking it sounds like she so desperately needs.

I can't believe there are not some of this deceased pastor's former associates who won't stand up for his congregation against the daughter.

I have a feeling it may be that over the last few years as the pastors health declined he acquiesed more and more to the daughter's will so by the end it may be hard to distinguish what the pastors actual desires were vs what his daughter wanted. Particularly if any element of dementia or alzheimers was involved at the end.

One thing I do know is that true justice will occur in the end. If not here on earth it will on judgement day when all of our deeds are laid bare.

People that turn works for God into carnal situations that are manipulated for money and security will answer to God and if that is what is going on here there will be a judgement that may not be immediate but it will be final someday.

[Rapture 1]

The wife and daughter are of one of the ministers, and elders of the church. Not the late pastor. He has been gone 28 yrs. The pastor died a few months ago. The other minister was one of the earliest members. His wife is 89 yrs old but very sharp. This will be her last day there.

[StillStanding]

My thoughts and prayers are with the members of the "wrecked church", as today will certainly be an emotional day for all of them! I pray they never lose their joy, their hope and their faith! But.....most of all, don't lose your praise! ( somebody hold the mule while I dance a little!)

PUSH. (Pray Until Something Happens!)

[HeavenBound]

The former late pastor did not give the mantle to the "local" preacher. The late pastor had been sick for quiet some time, some dementia even. This was his daughter's choice. He even said to the members that he did not think ***** was able to pastor a church. But, he always did what his daughter wanted.

I don't know if the daughter chose this man or not, all I know is our dear departed pastor put his assistant pastor in place as pastor in January of this year. I will agree that at times our deceased pastor suffered from dementia. The point is and should be no matter who picked him the majority of the Church members do not want him. We had a vote and now he is trying to overturn that vote which he lost. Everyone is trying to blame the daughter she has no power except what the acting pastor and the Trustee Board allows her to have. I do not care for this woman, but I do believe in putting blame where it belongs, she can't help it if the men can be led around like sheep.

[HeavenBound]

Lawyers don't like to get mired down in church disputes. They can work themselves to the bone and the next thing they know someone had a prayer meeting and everything they worked for is forgiven and gone. Those are facts. OR the exact opposite they can work tirelessly and no one is made happy.
ANY bylaws can be voted out one meeting.

The present leadership has fixed it where any voting goes his way they aren't following the by-laws anyhow. I was kicked out of the Church for speaking out in a meeting just like everyone else did and for walking out on a Pastor who was known to have disrespected our late Pastor often. I was 1 of at least 15 who walked out, but, the only 1 mailed a certified letter taking away my membership to the Church. My husband left with me, he was sent a letter to vote, that he met all the criteria of a member in good standing.

[rgcraig]

I don't know if the daughter chose this man or not, all I know is our dear departed pastor put his assistant pastor in place as pastor in January of this year. I will agree that at times our deceased pastor suffered from dementia. The point is and should be no matter who picked him the majority of the Church members do not want him. We had a vote and now he is trying to overturn that vote which he lost. Everyone is trying to blame the daughter she has no power except what the acting pastor and the Trustee Board allows her to have. I do not care for this woman, but I do believe in putting blame where it belongs, she can't help it if the men can be led around like sheep.

I agree, the men should stand up to her and be the leaders, but I can't agree with the "she can't help it" part - - she's taking advantage of them being spineless it sounds like.

[HeavenBound]

Since this church is most affiliated with the ALJC, perhaps some of the higher-ups (I shudder to say that, knowing my own situation....) could perhaps have a hearing as such over this situation. I personally think it would be better to get a jury of about 7 non-biased blue collar workers from an ALJC church and have a trial and a vote with an official simply presiding. This way it stays in the church and let both sides let the results be binding.

I like that idea if any would do this we would love to hear from them.

[StillStanding]

I'm not a legal person by any means, but if civil courts are going to eventually get involved, why not get an injunction to prevent the farce "invitation only" vote from taking place? After all, it appears that the "powers that be" were quick to threaten a civil lawsuit when it was recommend that an outside respected bishop help during the tradition period. I saw that as a reasonable compromise. I believe the courts would agree.

[StillStanding]

My thoughts and prayers are with the members of the "wrecked church", as today will certainly be an emotional day for all of them! I pray they never lose their joy, their hope and their faith! But.....most of all, don't lose your praise! ( somebody hold the mule while I dance a little!)

PUSH. (Pray Until Something Happens!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ioDkHjXtbg

[Rapture 1]

If you knew this daughter, you wouldn't even ask that question! She would never let anyone take control. She has never been a spiritual person. She has mostly stayed in the back of the church somewhere, while church was going on until recently. Now then she sits up close to the front.

[Cindy]

Seems like more than one has "dementia". Good grief.

[KeptByTheWord]

I will spend time in prayer today for this hurting group of people, that the Lord Almighty would step into this situation, and heal it in a way that only HE CAN! Be assured that God cares, and God is listening.

[ILG]

I don't know if the daughter chose this man or not, all I know is our dear departed pastor put his assistant pastor in place as pastor in January of this year. I will agree that at times our deceased pastor suffered from dementia. The point is and should be no matter who picked him the majority of the Church members do not want him. We had a vote and now he is trying to overturn that vote which he lost. Everyone is trying to blame the daughter she has no power except what the acting pastor and the Trustee Board allows her to have. I do not care for this woman, but I do believe in putting blame where it belongs, she can't help it if the men can be led around like sheep.

Sounds like you have a point there.

[ILG]

I like that idea if any would do this we would love to hear from them.

I think you would have to get an official or some outside unbiased party involved to see if they would do this. Any official will be somewhat biased because he will be related to the friend of the friend and on and on. If you could find an official who could just administrate and let both sides speak and have an unbiased jury decide the matter (possibly very hard to find one) that might work but it might not.

There are Christian mediation groups that specialize in this and they would be completely unbiased.

[ILG]

I have been reading the book Confessions of Surgeon by Paul A. Ruggieri. Last night I read a part where he talks about being sued. Early in his career, he rushed to the aid of an aging surgeon whose license should have been pulled as he kept messing up. However, the hospital was afraid to touch the old surgeon. He helped this surgeon who had made a huge mistake and left the room. The old surgeon then accidentally left a sponge in the person. The person sued. The old physician pretty much threw Dr. Ruggieri to the wolves in an attempt to keep his job. Here is what Dr. Ruggieri writes about having gone through it:

"The main truth is often irrelevant. The final truth ends up originating from an economic decision.....this (old) surgeon created his own problems. I don't blame the woman for suing....."

"Any patient, at any time, regardless of the quality of care given, can file a frivolous malpractice lawsuit, oblivious to the implications to those involved."

"As a result of two opening sentences in a legal letter, I was initiated into a secret club rarely spoken about. It is a club that brands you with a scarlet letter. A letter you spend the rest of your life trying to hide. I soon would journey through a process that swallows you whole, takes a few bites, and then regurgitates you. In the end, it leaves you alone to clean the emotional vomit off your white coat before getting back into the operating room. Living through a malpractice lawsuit forever changed me....the day I received that letter was the day I lost my professional virginity. I was young. It hurt like hell. I wanted it to be over quickly, and I would never speak about it again.....as the lawsuit unfolded, the very foundation of my professional altruism was shaken."

"As a defendant, I was embarrassed, shocked, %&$@ off, humbled and confused. I was embarrassed because the process made me feel as if I was part of some unspeakable evil. It made me feel as if I had purposely planned to cause harm, schemed to be negligent. I was shocked because nothing had prepared me to deal with the emotional baggage with being named in a lawsuit."

"As the suit ran it's slow course, it felt like I was emotionally bleeding every time I had to devote energy to defending myself. During the long, uninvolved gaps, I did my best to scab over the wounds until the next meeting or deposition. Then, the bleeding would start all over again.

"Three years later....the case was dropped. Yes, that was good news, but it was not over for me. For the next ten years, this black mark is on my record, even though I've been dropped from the case. Every time I apply for hospital privileges or renew my license, I have to explain it."

Wow. Could I ever relate to that! I had a hard time sleeping last night. My husband and I were never vindicated aside from the fact that the lawsuit(s) were finally dropped. Every friend that the previous pastor had ever had believed we were evil church destroyers. Many of the church members believed that. Far and wide, anywhere I go, if I were to walk into a UPC church and people found out who I was, there would be whispers and gossip. We had moved here from another state and no one here knew us when we took the church. We were both first generation Pentecostals.

When my husband decided to disafilliate the church, we had pretty much lost all confidence and hope in the district superintendent and presbyter. Of course, the presbyter had to show up for the disaffiliation meeting. He basically told the people that if there was a vote to disafilliate that we would take any money left. The district was there to protect them from that, from evil people like us! HA! Hogwash.

[ILG]

Anyway, lawsuits are so horrible. They suck the life out of you and drag on.....and on......and on......just when you think you are going to get a resolution, there is another reason to go back and back and back.

Just remember, the church building is a building. It is not God, it is not the church. It is not worth sweating great drops of blood over.

We were the defendants. We had no choice. If you have a choice, don't walk, RUN to the nearest exit. You may feel right, but you can take that rightness in your soul with you wherever you go. When we disaffiliated the church we could have pulled the church OUT of the organization. Why didn't we? We did not want to hurt the people who had supported us in any way. We quietly disappeared. Records in tact.

By the way, when we left, we didn't want any chance of revisionist history happening. My husband just happened to work for a printing company at the time and he took sheafs of paper with him to work every day. We took copies of the vast majority of the records with us, so, if anyone destroyed those other records there are more......but I will never say where.

[Rapture 1]

ILG, I couldn't agree with you more. That's what they are doing. There were only 20 there this morning, and 6 "the good guys" will not be back.

[ILG]

ILG, I couldn't agree with you more. That's what they are doing. There were only 20 there this morning, and 6 "the good guys" will not be back.

Good for them.

[Sister Alvear]

This thread causes me to cry...

[Sam]

This thread causes me to cry...

I don't know the people involved but it's sad to hear of a thriving church degenerating to nothing.

Many, many years ago Tom and Horace Skirvin (they were brothers) preached the Jesus' name message in southern Indiana and northern Kentucky. It is my understanding that several churches were established in the area that still continue (although there have been some fights and splits) to this day as UPC, PAW, and independent churches in those areas of Kentucky and Indiana. I've preached in a couple of them maybe 40 years ago. Horace died as an old man in 1958 or 59. His brother Tom outlived him by several years. I've preached in the Warsaw, KY church for Bro. Tom a few times maybe as long ago as when I was single, can't remember. Well, Tom got old and the church just died around him. He passed it on after his death to a PAW pastor and it finished dying with the PAW pastor. There was no outreach, just sitting there waiting for people to come. The PAW pastor died and his wife was about the only member left. It is my understanding that she sold the building and there are apartments built there now.

[HolyFire]

ILG, I couldn't agree with you more. That's what they are doing. There were only 20 there this morning, and 6 "the good guys" will not be back.

Ichabod...and don't be surprised if judgement happens in plain sight. I don't say this lightly. I hope for reconciliation and a move of God though. Scary situation, especially if all of this is true.

[ILG]

Ichabod...and don't be surprised if judgement happens in plain sight. I don't say this lightly. I hope for reconciliation and a move of God though. Scary situation, especially if all of this is true.

One of the people that sued us died towards the end. I always felt like that person was more of a victim though than a perpetrator.

[Rapture 1]

I wish this wasn't true. There have a lot of tears shed. The 89 yrs old christian lady that I spoke of earlier said the daughter spoke to her for the first time ever after sunday school and said, "I love you and this isn't over yet". The lady left then and dosn't plan on going back. She said one thing that reallly bothers her is, that she will not get to have her funeral there like her husband did. She and the others will be okay tho, they have God on their side, and feels peace with themselves. There is a great UPC church about 25 miles from there that has a great Pastor, and run about 800. A very religious, conservative, with standards like we grew up in. There isn't any ALJC churches in that area, which is sad.

[StillStanding]

I wish this wasn't true. There have a lot of tears shed. The 89 yrs old christian lady that I spoke of earlier said the daughter spoke to her for the first time ever after sunday school and said, "I love you and this isn't over yet". The lady left then and dosn't plan on going back. She said one thing that reallly bothers her is, that she will not get to have her funeral there like her husband did. She and the others will be okay tho, they have God on their side, and feels peace with themselves. There is a great UPC church about 25 miles from there that has a great Pastor, and run about 800. A very religious, conservative, with standards like we grew up in. There isn't any ALJC churches in that area, which is sad.

This breaks my heart! After 50+ years, she feels like a stranger in her own land. Surely they'll let her and other loyal and faithful saints for so many years have their funeral there at that church!

A church that ran over 300 in regular attendance at it's peak, is now down to less than 20 people! How sad! I fear that it's headed toward the same outcome as the church in Sam's story. The "invitation only" vote is now irrelevant. They won! The vote is fixed and the local preacher becomes the pastor, but the pastor of what? 18 people?

Maybe this story will serve as an example for other elderly pastors of the need to step down before their health gets so bad and they drag the church down with them. Maybe this can serve as a example of what can possibly happen if a church becomes a family business or kingdom. It's so very very sad!

[Rapture 1]

[

[Rapture 1]

This lady said she didn't mean the daughter spoke to her, she got the name mixed up. It was the daughter's friend. She ,along with some of the others want to get all this behind them and get on with their lives. Life is to short, and other things more important to worry about than things you can't do anything about. Life is good and God is good!!!! There are greater things ahead for us!

[Sister Alvear]

I have preached for Brother Adams that is in Memphis. He has a good church and in his building is also a good Spanish church. But there are others also in Memphis.

[Steve Epley]

I have preached for Brother Adams that is in Memphis. He has a good church and in his building is also a good Spanish church. But there are others also in Memphis.

He is a good man and the work is great there. Not UPC would be a good option.

[ILG]

This lady said she didn't mean the daughter spoke to her, she got the name mixed up. It was the daughter's friend. She ,along with some of the others want to get all this behind them and get on with their lives. Life is to short, and other things more important to worry about than things you can't do anything about. Life is good and God is good!!!! There are greater things ahead for us!

That is awesome. I admire them for walking away.

[Rapture 1]

Where is Bro Adam's church? Some would like to know.

[KeptByTheWord]

That is awesome. I admire them for walking away.

Yes, indeed! Follow Christ, not man, or manmade institutions.

[Steve Epley]

Where is Bro Adam's church? Some would like to know.

I will find the location. It is the church that Bro. Lewis & Burgess pastored.

[Sister Alvear]

Brother Epley...Is it Woodlawn? I cannot remember. If you do not have the address I am sure you could get it through Brother Holmes.

[Cindy]

Isn't it wonderful that we have AFF to bring people together and share to help our brothers and sisters.

Elder Epley and Sister Alvear such great resources y'all are sharing our wonderful heritage.

[StillStanding]

I will find the location. It is the church that Bro. Lewis & Burgess pastored.

http://cltmemphis.org/

[Sister Alvear]

Christian Life Tabernacle | 2869 Woodlawn Terrace Memphis, TN 38127 |

[Rapture 1]

Thank you. Bro Lewis was a great man! Been to his church years ago, didn't know it was still going.

[HeavenBound]

I think you would have to get an official or some outside unbiased party involved to see if they would do this. Any official will be somewhat biased because he will be related to the friend of the friend and on and on. If you could find an official who could just administrate and let both sides speak and have an unbiased jury decide the matter (possibly very hard to find one) that might work but it might not.

There are Christian mediation groups that specialize in this and they would be completely unbiased.

Please could you tell me how to contact them. I'm sure we all would like to talk to them.

[ILG]

Please could you tell me how to contact them. I'm sure we all would like to talk to them.

I can't recommend or not recommend any of these groups but I found these online when I did a google search for Christian mediation. We were going to use one of these groups for our issues but the people who sued would not put up the money and pick anyone although they at first agreed to use mediation (and told everyone we refused to use it). I am sure the use of the term "Christian" will be the wider usage in our culture and some may not feel these people are "Christians" that can be used for mediation purposes. (The plaintiffs in our situation refused to go before the district board.) However, I feel they would be much more unbiased than anyone closer to the issue.

http://christianmediationservicesllc.com/

http://www.christianmediation.org/

http://justpeaceumc.org/2010/02/faith-based-christian-mediation/

http://christianmediate.com/

You can also do mediation/binding arbitration with a group of your choosing that both parties agree upon to use. You just have to make sure it is legally binding.

I wish you all well.

[ILG]

I also can't testify to what the process of mediation with any mediation group is like since we never got that far. However, I can say that lawsuits can drag on for years and it is like a slow bleed that goes on and on.

I would hope that mediation or binding arbitration could be quicker. You might still need lawyers on each side but how I think it works is that you get your lawyers to guide you both through presenting your sides and you meet once and get it over with, but I can't say that for sure.

[Praxeas]

As much as it might hurt, maybe it's just better to move on, find or start another church and leave those others to their own devices and pray God intervene in the lives of all to heal and correct?

[ILG]

As much as it might hurt, maybe it's just better to move on, find or start another church and leave those others to their own devices and pray God intervene in the lives of all to heal and correct?

I could see how people might feel either way. I guess the main thing to do is count the cost of how horrific it could be before you step in. Of course, being the plaintiffs in the case, you could drop it at any time.

This may sound terrible to your ears at the moment, but it may help. Think about the woman and what she may be thinking. Her Daddy died. She is in grief. She believes that her Daddy's proclamation of this man being pastor is law or should be recognized. She believes that those that voted against this man are against God or at the very least are against the loyalty of her father's memory.

Rather than force the issue, maybe some time and space for all is best. Maybe instead of believing she is a bad person, maybe she is just trying to hold up her father's memory.

If you look this all over and think it all over and are convinced otherwise, that she is maliciously and negligently running roughshod over people, maybe you should go for mediation.

Maybe you should go for mediation anyway. Maybe she would see her fault and the church could find healing and come together.

Or maybe she is evil and the present pastor is evil. If so, you can fight it and you may win, but just know and be forewarned that fighting a spiritual war is a real war. It is ugly. It is mean. It is horrific.

Sometimes wars are just and need to be fought. But you might have war wounds for the rest of your life.

If you pray and are convinced you should fight, then fight. Otherwise, run for your life.

[ILG]

(My belief is that emotions are running high on all sides and mistakes are being made. But I am not sure that there is gross negligence. There is an abuse of power going on but I think they feel justified because of Daddy's memory. That doesn't make it right but I don't necessarily think it is based on evil motives. But this is not my battle and not my war so I would stay out of any decisions made.)

[rgcraig]

Looks like to me there are personal gains if not evil motives.

[ILG]

Looks like to me there are personal gains if not evil motives.

But if we are to view this from a compassionate aspect (and I am not saying that it should or should not be viewed from that aspect) those personal gains may be incidental and not the main motivation. It may only be about her Daddy's memory and his wishes, in her mind. We don't know her mind. Or it could be she only cares about her salary. Since I don't know any of these people, I don't know. Sometimes, even if you do know people, you still don't know.

I guess I am just saying her decisions may be clouded with grief. I don't know what the right answer is but I am just trying to throw some thoughts out there to consider. it may help in making the decisions that need to be made.

There is a saying "The only thing needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing".

The thing for those involved to determine is if this is that kind of case or not. Only they can answer that for themselves.

[Margies3]

But if we are to view this from a compassionate aspect (and I am not saying that it should or should not be viewed from that aspect) those personal gains may be incidental and not the main motivation. It may only be about her Daddy's memory and his wishes, in her mind. We don't know her mind. Or it could be she only cares about her salary. Since I don't know any of these people, I don't know. Sometimes, even if you do know people, you still don't know.

I guess I am just saying her decisions may be clouded with grief. I don't know what the right answer is but I am just trying to throw some thoughts out there to consider. it may help in making the decisions that need to be made.

There is a saying "The only thing needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing".

The thing for those involved to determine is if this is that kind of case or not. Only they can answer that for themselves.

I would have considered the underline statement EXCEPT that she gave herself such a huge raise.

[ILG]

I would have considered the underline statement EXCEPT that she gave herself such a huge raise.

Hmm, yes, I forgot about that. How exactly did she accomplish that? Does not that sort of thing have to pass by the board? Did not someone approve that?

[Sister Alvear]

it is just sad all the way around...

[StillStanding]

it is just sad all the way around...

Yes it is, Sis Alvear, yes it is!

My heart breaks for an 84 year old precious godly lady that is caught up in the middle of all of this turmoil. She is one of the sweetest people that you've ever met, and would never hurt a fly!

After over 50 years of faithfulness to that church and the former pastor, she suddenly has to find a new church to attend. This church was her "home", and she is worried about feeling comfortable attending church anywhere else. Her world has been turned upside down!

[Rapture 1]

Believe me, it is the personal gains! And that has been going on for a long time. But, I think it is time to walk away from all of this. And that is what I think everyone is planning on doing,at least the ones I've talked with. Life is too short to let you lose your soul and become bitter over something like this.

[StillStanding]

But if we are to view this from a compassionate aspect (and I am not saying that it should or should not be viewed from that aspect) those personal gains may be incidental and not the main motivation. It may only be about her Daddy's memory and his wishes, in her mind. We don't know her mind. ......


I believe in her mind she is safeguarding her father's legacy. Maybe she fears a new pastor coming in who would disregard the history and legacy laid before it. I've seen this happen before! Who knows?

[Rapture 1]

She wouldn't let any of her family take over. She insists on her "friend"! Her family would have continued the legacy, and had a smooth transition, but she wouldn't have been in control and she knew that.

[StillStanding]

Believe me, it is the personal gains! And that has been going on for a long time. But, I think it is time to walk away from all of this. And that is what I think everyone is planning on doing,at least the ones I've talked with. Life is too short to let you lose your soul and become bitter over something like this.

Of course, this is easier said than done! This is like a divorce. Everyone will have to go thru the cycle of shock, hurt and anger before they finally reach acceptance.

[ILG]

I believe in her mind she is safeguarding her father's legacy. Maybe she fears a new pastor coming in who would disregard the history and legacy laid before it. I've seen this happen before! Who knows?

Well, any suit of any kind would look only at facts. How a person can "give themselves a raise" is not understood by me. They would look at by-laws and how the church was set up. If there were no by-laws etc., any kind of teeth of any kind would be hard to find and do anything about.

[ILG]

Of course, this is easier said than done! This is like a divorce. Everyone will have to go thru the cycle of shock, hurt and anger before they finally reach acceptance.

Yes, it is like a divorce.

[Margies3]

All I can say is that I would NEVER want to be in that woman's shoes when it was time to stand before God, unless she comes to her senses and repents of what she's done. You cannot do this kind of damage to the church of God and not have to answer for it.

As far as the elderly people go - the one thought I keep having is that this is good practice for the day when God calls them to their eternal reward. There they will be fellow-shipping with a whole new group of people - just like they are in whatever new church they decide to become a part of here :) I know that's not much consolation. But maybe it's a little??

[Steve Epley]

Will not go into any details but I know a church that failed the majority of the saints were forced to go to another church with a good pastor. The church welcomed them with open arms. The Pastor told me a couple of years after the saints had been there "these are wonderful people they really try and we love them but in truth this will never feel like home to them. I can see their children really blending in perfectly but the bulk of these older saints really seem more like visitors in their minds than members." That has been years ago the saints have remained and been faithful however it's not home. I feel for the older saints of this assembly.

[Cindy]

This whole situation breaks my heart.

[StillStanding]

Will not go into any details but I know a church that failed the majority of the saints were forced to go to another church with a good pastor. The church welcomed them with open arms. The Pastor told me a couple of years after the saints had been there "these are wonderful people they really try and we love them but in truth this will never feel like home to them. I can see their children really blending in perfectly but the bulk of these older saints really seem more like visitors in their minds than members." That has been years ago the saints have remained and been faithful however it's not home. I feel for the older saints of this assembly.

I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts about the older saints. Two of them visited a different church on Sunday morning for the first time in 50 years, and we're very uncomfortable. Although they enjoyed the message, the music was too contemporary and the preacher didn't wear a suit and tie! Each church develops their own culture, so church will never be the same. They'll probably check out another church. *smile*

[HeavenBound]

I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts about the older saints. Two of them visited a different church on Sunday morning for the first time in 50 years, and we're very uncomfortable. Although they enjoyed the message, the music was too contemporary and the preacher didn't wear a suit and tie! Each church develops their own culture, so church will never be the same. They'll probably check out another church. *smile*

I went to Church Sunday even though I was mailed a certified letter that I was no longer a member. Nobody said anything to me about it. I attended Sunday School and my teacher, a wonderful Godly man, was so close to tears that it hurt myself and my husband to witness. This is hurting everyone who loves this Church. This is Home to so many that now have to try to find a new Church to call home. They have attended since they were young newlyweds, raised there children in this Church and now their children's children are there. This is even splitting families up. I know of 1 couple the wife is against and the husband is for the Pastor that lost the election but won't step down.
Now Church service was different Bro. JK preached what was a campaign for Bro. F., also during all of this Bishop D. C. from out of statei has been advising Bro. F. and Sister K (the deceased Pastor's daughter) on how to do things. He also gave the congregation their orders, we could not talk to each other about any of this, we couldn't have visitors from other church's and various other rules. All approved by Bro. F and Sister K. and our Trustee Board that was never voted in by the members of the Church. I didn't know whether to stand up and say Hail Hitler! or what June 3rd when this atrocity happened, I felt like we were being treated like they owned us , and this man was nobody we recognized as being in charge. That we were allowed by their sufferance to be at the Church. It is morally and legally a shame what has been done to the people of this Church.

[StillStanding]

I'm sitting here ( not standing! Ha!) in awe that the leadership of this church was possibly advised by a neighboring pastor to take the actions they did! Heaven help us all!

From my view, it comes down to this:

1. The majority of members of this church were familiar with the local preacher and for one reason or another were not comfortable with him serving as pastor.

2. They prefer a pastor that is free from controversial rumors.

3. They prefer a pastor who they can totally respect and trust.

4. They have chosen to walk instead of being force-fed.

[ILG]

Bishop D. C. from out of statei has been advising Bro. F. and Sister K (the deceased Pastor's daughter) on how to do things. He also gave the congregation their orders, we could not talk to each other about any of this, we couldn't have visitors from other church's and various other rules. All approved by Bro. F and Sister K. and our Trustee Board that was never voted in by the members of the Church. I didn't know whether to stand up and say Hail Hitler! or what June 3rd when this atrocity happened, I felt like we were being treated like they owned us , and this man was nobody we recognized as being in charge. That we were allowed by their sufferance to be at the Church. It is morally and legally a shame what has been done to the people of this Church.

There you have it. Who is this bishop and why does he think he has the right to do this? I thought this was an independent church? When they start giving rules about not being allowed to talk to each other, yes, Hail Hitler are the right words to use, I'd say.

[AreYouReady?]

He also gave the congregation their orders, we could not talk to each other about any of this, we couldn't have visitors from other church's and various other rules.

Classic signs of abuse. The forbidding of verbal exchange. The hiding of what is happening in order to complete the dirty work behind the scenes. :foottap

[Esaias]

:... but in truth this will never feel like home to them. I can see their children really blending in perfectly but the bulk of these older saints really seem more like visitors in their minds than members."

How can people with the Holy Ghost not feel 'at home' with others who have the Holy Ghost... barring any weirdness going on or something?

EVERYPLACE I have been to that was full of Holy Ghost people, I have felt 'at home'.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything family members do, but still, family is family.

Right?

I don't get this being so attached to a particular congregation that one cannot 'feel at home' with another, assuming the Spirit is the same?

Maybe it's my lack of traditional upbringing or something.

[ILG]

A Love Story

I was thinking about StillStanding's post about this being like a divorce. I don't think you get over a divorce like you might some other things that happen in life. Depending on how long the "marriage" was and other criteria, the "divorce" can be horrible and have very long lasting wounds.

For me, I loved the UPC with all my heart. I had given my life to it. I defended it in the face of criticism. I left my previous life and friends (and even family to some extent) behind for it. My husband and I built a church that still stands today. We drove past it when we were on vacation a while back. We pulled up and I ran up and looked in the windows (something that my husband was uncomfortable doing). When I got back into the car I said "Isn't it funny that these people are in this church because of us and they could drive up and confront us about looking in the windows and ask us what we are doing?" He said "Yes, that is strange." I remember driving by one day and feeling the impression of God to call the pastor of this previous Church of God church and ask him if he wanted to sell the building. I called him and he said I should have my husband call him. The rest is history. It is a UPC today. And yet, they would not recognize me today and would probably chase me away if they saw me looking into the windows.

The church that I loved rejected me before I ever rejected it. We built a church and gave thousands of hours and dollars to both churches and the organization. We did fundraisers, taught Bible studies, passed out tracts, taught Sunday School, picked people up. We had potlucks and did baptisms and prayed our hearts out. We sang (I love to sing and play piano and I have nowhere to do that now) and worshiped God. We raised our children in this organization to be good people, with morals. My daughter used to sing with me.

What we gave so much to, kicked us in the teeth and stole from us. It stole our reputation, our livelihood, our peace, parts of my children's childhoods, our health and our community.

Yes, I have said leaving is the best thing we ever did and I meant that. But it did not come without a price, let me tell you. Leaving came with redefining who we were completely. We were no longer ministers, no longer UPC, no longer singers and piano players, no longer church builders. We were no longer who we had been for 19 years.

Anyway. Divorce.

Most of the time I don't think about these things and they are buried somewhere, but talking about these things lately has brought some stuff to the surface. I have had trouble sleeping and my shoulders and neck have been stiff. I appreciate very deeply being able to write what I wrote in this thread and I also very deeply appreciate the compassionate responses. It has been scary writing what I have written in this thread. I have previously said we had been through a lawsuit and things like that but I have never before written what I have written in this thread about some of the details. I have kept it quiet and hidden mostly for so long that writing about it has been very difficult. Yet, I am very thankful for the opportunity to do so. Thanks for listening.

To the UPC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLQl3WQQoQ0

[KeptByTheWord]

The two "cohorts" in this case, seemingly the pastor's daughter and Bro. F. may succeed in forcing their will on the congregation... but it seems to me that there is not going to be much of a congregation left!

So to what purpose they think this is going to avail, is completely beyond me! To have won a battle.... but lost the war...

The story is not over yet.

Remember our faith and trust is never, ever, to be in man... but our trust is in Jesus.

[KeptByTheWord]

A Love Story

I was thinking about StillStanding's post about this being like a divorce. I don't think you get over a divorce like you might some other things that happen in life. Depending on how long the "marriage" was and other criteria, the "divorce" can be horrible and have very long lasting wounds.



Indeed it is a love story gone wrong.... yet I think perhaps this is because that love and faith has been put, in part, into a man, a building, a denomination, a group of people... etc. instead of realizing all along that the church belongs to Jesus.

Maybe this is God's way of bringing the focus back to HIM, where it belongs. It is not "so and so's church" but it is the church of Jesus Christ. It does feel like a divorce and a betrayal of sorts.... but I believe the hand of God is not finished with this congregation of people yet....

[ILG]

Indeed it is a love story gone wrong.... yet I think perhaps this is because that love and faith has been put, in part, into a man, a building, a denomination, a group of people... etc. instead of realizing all along that the church belongs to Jesus.

Maybe this is God's way of bringing the focus back to HIM, where it belongs. It is not "so and so's church" but it is the church of Jesus Christ. It does feel like a divorce and a betrayal of sorts.... but I believe the hand of God is not finished with this congregation of people yet....

Yes, I think it does bring our attention back to where it belongs. No doubt about that. Not that I think God endorses abuse for any "good" reason.

[Falla39]

Classic signs of abuse. The forbidding of verbal exchange. The hiding of what is happening in order to complete the dirty work behind the scenes. :foottap

Malachi 3:15-18

15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

[Steve Epley]

How can people with the Holy Ghost not feel 'at home' with others who have the Holy Ghost... barring any weirdness going on or something?

EVERYPLACE I have been to that was full of Holy Ghost people, I have felt 'at home'.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything family members do, but still, family is family.

Right?

I don't get this being so attached to a particular congregation that one cannot 'feel at home' with another, assuming the Spirit is the same?

Maybe it's my lack of traditional upbringing or something.

One question how long have you been in one local congregation? Some of these folks married in that church-raised their children there-and even their grandchildren. They have been faithful thru thick and thin attending services for years. That local church is their church family. This is like an unwanted divorce when you have been happy in the marriage. They may go somewhere and heal but in these senior years I doubt they live long enough to feel at home. However I encourage them to get up and get out and find somewhere to go. I suggest Elder Adam's church.

[seekerman]

It's with sadness that I read of stories like this and the hurt and harm that comes to the children of God through such behavior. I realize the people have been hurt/harmed and even though it seems that the individuals who are controlling the building church system are inflicting pain and suffering, they're probably experiencing the same thing themselves. Probably in their mind they're protecting their building church system and see the individuals who are against them as against the truth.

The main problem is with the typical oneness Pentecostal church building system. I've noticed the typical phrase of 'bro so-and-so's' church in this thread and others. Go to 'bro so-and-so's church'. 'Bro-so-and-so' has a great church in this town and that town. Such 'church' systems are a disservice to God. It's not his system, but preachers will work and suffer and work the people and politic and money-money and 'building is the house of the Lord, , in order to build a manmade kingdom. The people are taught to serve the pastor and building and then when something comes along like the fiasco we're reading about, seeing the hurt and harm and pain and suffering, little is said that the preacher set up a system which isn't scriptural at all. It's almost like a franchise with McDonalds competing with Burger King and Burger King competing with Wendy's and if an individual has the particular denominational franchise, UPC, ALJC, Other, then they have the rights to a certain territory. When the franchisee passes away, the franchise is still owned and controlled by the family. So it is with some much of the oneness Pentecostal system. The father passes the franchise on to the children. The father and his family have put money and time and effort and tears into the franchise and therefore the son/daughter inherits the 'church' business.

This problem we're reading about originated with the Roman Catholic Church and the system which they instituted with didn't have scriptural support, as much of their teachings lack. The building=church and a pope-like figure heading the building-church has it's basis in Roman Catholicism. The pope/preacher is to be obeyed, he's the guy who speaks for God and to question him or the building-church system is blasphemy and the reward for such individual behavior is hell.

The sheep are scattered in this sordid story because of two things. First, the 'church' system which was established was against scripture to begin with and second, the devil knew it.

Sadly, those sheep who are scattered think the pastor was their shepherd instead of Jesus and they believe that they must attend and support a church=building system in order to not forsake the assembling of themselves together. Because of the error which was taught as truth to them, they are unable to simply meet as the New Testament church did. The Roman Catholic system puts people in bondage to the building=church system that few can escape from.

The best thing that could happen is that they never attend another building=church system and do as the New Testament church did. Unless that happens they're just trading Roman Catholic systems of bondage.

[houston]

Really, ILG??? I can never listen to that song again. Thanks.

[houston]

You should have set fire to the rain...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mzLQyd36A

[KeptByTheWord]

The best thing that could happen is that they never attend another building=church system and do as the New Testament church did. Unless that happens they're just trading Roman Catholic systems of bondage.

:thumbsup

In many cases, yes indeed. Yet, I know there are true churches of Jesus out there whose main focus is to glorify Jesus, and not the pastor, building, or denomination. They are out there, and maybe it takes situations such as this, to help people realize that the church is not a building, group, denomination or such like. The true church of Jesus are those who have taken up their cross to follow Him, and let nothing get in the way of the work done at Calvary in their lives.

[AreYouReady?]

It's with sadness that I read of stories like this and the hurt and harm that comes to the children of God through such behavior. I realize the people have been hurt/harmed and even though it seems that the individuals who are controlling the building church system are inflicting pain and suffering, they're probably experiencing the same thing themselves. Probably in their mind they're protecting their building church system and see the individuals who are against them as against the truth.

The main problem is with the typical oneness Pentecostal church building system. I've noticed the typical phrase of 'bro so-and-so's' church in this thread and others. Go to 'bro so-and-so's church'. 'Bro-so-and-so' has a great church in this town and that town. Such 'church' systems are a disservice to God. It's not his system, but preachers will work and suffer and work the people and politic and money-money and 'building is the house of the Lord, , in order to build a manmade kingdom. The people are taught to serve the pastor and building and then when something comes along like the fiasco we're reading about, seeing the hurt and harm and pain and suffering, little is said that the preacher set up a system which isn't scriptural at all. It's almost like a franchise with McDonalds competing with Burger King and Burger King competing with Wendy's and if an individual has the particular denominational franchise, UPC, ALJC, Other, then they have the rights to a certain territory. When the franchisee passes away, the franchise is still owned and controlled by the family. So it is with some much of the oneness Pentecostal system. The father passes the franchise on to the children. The father and his family have put money and time and effort and tears into the franchise and therefore the son/daughter inherits the 'church' business.

This problem we're reading about originated with the Roman Catholic Church and the system which they instituted with didn't have scriptural support, as much of their teachings lack. The building=church and a pope-like figure heading the building-church has it's basis in Roman Catholicism. The pope/preacher is to be obeyed, he's the guy who speaks for God and to question him or the building-church system is blasphemy and the reward for such individual behavior is hell.

The sheep are scattered in this sordid story because of two things. First, the 'church' system which was established was against scripture to begin with and second, the devil knew it.

Sadly, those sheep who are scattered think the pastor was their shepherd instead of Jesus and they believe that they must attend and support a church=building system in order to not forsake the assembling of themselves together. Because of the error which was taught as truth to them, they are unable to simply meet as the New Testament church did. The Roman Catholic system puts people in bondage to the building=church system that few can escape from.

The best thing that could happen is that they never attend another building=church system and do as the New Testament church did. Unless that happens they're just trading Roman Catholic systems of bondage.

This pretty much sums it up.

Of course you are not going to get many "amens" from your post because the people have been taught to believe it just as you posted.

[HeavenBound]

There you have it. Who is this bishop and why does he think he has the right to do this? I thought this was an independent church? When they start giving rules about not being allowed to talk to each other, yes, Hail Hitler are the right words to use, I'd say.

He was a superintendent of the ALJC for a time and is a Bishop of a Church in another state and was asked by the deceased Pastor's daughter and her choice for Pastor to please come advise them. They gave him the right although the majority didn't like it.

[HeavenBound]

How can people with the Holy Ghost not feel 'at home' with others who have the Holy Ghost... barring any weirdness going on or something?

EVERYPLACE I have been to that was full of Holy Ghost people, I have felt 'at home'.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything family members do, but still, family is family.

Right?

I don't get this being so attached to a particular congregation that one cannot 'feel at home' with another, assuming the Spirit is the same?

Maybe it's my lack of traditional upbringing or something.

Remember some of these members are 80 or older and have been together most of their lives.

[mizpeh]

How very sad! I read the majority of this thread this morning after working all night and about half way through began to feel the sweet presence of God. Praying for these folks.

[StillStanding]

Well.......surprise, surprise! I was just told the the local pastor won the vote last night as new pastor 10-2! This goes down as the most unbelievable farce church business vote that I've ever heard of in my lifetime! Shame on them!

[rgcraig]

Well.......surprise, surprise! I was just told the the local pastor won the vote last night as new pastor 10-2! This goes down as the most unbelievable farce church business vote that I've ever heard of in my lifetime! Shame on them!

12 people....wow!

I'm surprised they even counted the two neys.

So, very sad and I know very hurtful for the majority of those precious saints. I pray they find a place of love and healing.

[Rapture 1]

The 3 men that they sent letters to, to vote, because they didn't show up (which they knew they wouldn"t), they, the "Bishop",(even tho he isn't a member), and the others put them down as a yes vote for *****. He would have still won because they knew how many letters were sent and how they would vote!! So ,I believe it was 12 to 2. Is this illegal or what?

[HolyFire]

It's with sadness that I read of stories like this and the hurt and harm that comes to the children of God through such behavior. I realize the people have been hurt/harmed and even though it seems that the individuals who are controlling the building church system are inflicting pain and suffering, they're probably experiencing the same thing themselves. Probably in their mind they're protecting their building church system and see the individuals who are against them as against the truth.

The main problem is with the typical oneness Pentecostal church building system. I've noticed the typical phrase of 'bro so-and-so's' church in this thread and others. Go to 'bro so-and-so's church'. 'Bro-so-and-so' has a great church in this town and that town. Such 'church' systems are a disservice to God. It's not his system, but preachers will work and suffer and work the people and politic and money-money and 'building is the house of the Lord, , in order to build a manmade kingdom. The people are taught to serve the pastor and building and then when something comes along like the fiasco we're reading about, seeing the hurt and harm and pain and suffering, little is said that the preacher set up a system which isn't scriptural at all. It's almost like a franchise with McDonalds competing with Burger King and Burger King competing with Wendy's and if an individual has the particular denominational franchise, UPC, ALJC, Other, then they have the rights to a certain territory. When the franchisee passes away, the franchise is still owned and controlled by the family. So it is with some much of the oneness Pentecostal system. The father passes the franchise on to the children. The father and his family have put money and time and effort and tears into the franchise and therefore the son/daughter inherits the 'church' business.

This problem we're reading about originated with the Roman Catholic Church and the system which they instituted with didn't have scriptural support, as much of their teachings lack. The building=church and a pope-like figure heading the building-church has it's basis in Roman Catholicism. The pope/preacher is to be obeyed, he's the guy who speaks for God and to question him or the building-church system is blasphemy and the reward for such individual behavior is hell.

The sheep are scattered in this sordid story because of two things. First, the 'church' system which was established was against scripture to begin with and second, the devil knew it.

Sadly, those sheep who are scattered think the pastor was their shepherd instead of Jesus and they believe that they must attend and support a church=building system in order to not forsake the assembling of themselves together. Because of the error which was taught as truth to them, they are unable to simply meet as the New Testament church did. The Roman Catholic system puts people in bondage to the building=church system that few can escape from.

The best thing that could happen is that they never attend another building=church system and do as the New Testament church did. Unless that happens they're just trading Roman Catholic systems of bondage.

I'm against a family owned and operated church system, but how is it supposed to work? What's the scriptural method?

[rgcraig]

The 3 men that they sent letters to, to vote, because they didn't show up (which they knew they wouldn"t), they, the "Bishop",(even tho he isn't a member), and the others put them down as a yes vote for *****. He would have still won because they knew how many letters were sent and how they would vote!! So ,I believe it was 12 to 2. Is this illegal or what?

Thinking that God wouldn't approve.

[Esaias]

One question how long have you been in one local congregation? Some of these folks married in that church-raised their children there-and even their grandchildren. They have been faithful thru thick and thin attending services for years. That local church is their church family. This is like an unwanted divorce when you have been happy in the marriage. They may go somewhere and heal but in these senior years I doubt they live long enough to feel at home. However I encourage them to get up and get out and find somewhere to go. I suggest Elder Adam's church.

That's what I was saying... must be my lack of traditional upbringing. I can understand the hurt and pain, but I honestly cannot understand (relate, maybe?) the idea of not feeling at home with Holy Ghost people. I have stopped in for a meeting out of state at a church I saw listed in the phone book... and felt right at home. Same Spirit.

Course, they say Tennessee is a lot like Texas, so...

:nod

[Esaias]

It's with sadness that I read of stories like this and the hurt and harm that comes to the children of God through such behavior. I realize the people have been hurt/harmed and even though it seems that the individuals who are controlling the building church system are inflicting pain and suffering, they're probably experiencing the same thing themselves. Probably in their mind they're protecting their building church system and see the individuals who are against them as against the truth.

The main problem is with the typical oneness Pentecostal church building system. I've noticed the typical phrase of 'bro so-and-so's' church in this thread and others. Go to 'bro so-and-so's church'. 'Bro-so-and-so' has a great church in this town and that town. Such 'church' systems are a disservice to God. It's not his system, but preachers will work and suffer and work the people and politic and money-money and 'building is the house of the Lord, , in order to build a manmade kingdom. The people are taught to serve the pastor and building and then when something comes along like the fiasco we're reading about, seeing the hurt and harm and pain and suffering, little is said that the preacher set up a system which isn't scriptural at all. It's almost like a franchise with McDonalds competing with Burger King and Burger King competing with Wendy's and if an individual has the particular denominational franchise, UPC, ALJC, Other, then they have the rights to a certain territory. When the franchisee passes away, the franchise is still owned and controlled by the family. So it is with some much of the oneness Pentecostal system. The father passes the franchise on to the children. The father and his family have put money and time and effort and tears into the franchise and therefore the son/daughter inherits the 'church' business.

This problem we're reading about originated with the Roman Catholic Church and the system which they instituted with didn't have scriptural support, as much of their teachings lack. The building=church and a pope-like figure heading the building-church has it's basis in Roman Catholicism. The pope/preacher is to be obeyed, he's the guy who speaks for God and to question him or the building-church system is blasphemy and the reward for such individual behavior is hell.

The sheep are scattered in this sordid story because of two things. First, the 'church' system which was established was against scripture to begin with and second, the devil knew it.

Sadly, those sheep who are scattered think the pastor was their shepherd instead of Jesus and they believe that they must attend and support a church=building system in order to not forsake the assembling of themselves together. Because of the error which was taught as truth to them, they are unable to simply meet as the New Testament church did. The Roman Catholic system puts people in bondage to the building=church system that few can escape from.

The best thing that could happen is that they never attend another building=church system and do as the New Testament church did. Unless that happens they're just trading Roman Catholic systems of bondage.

And there ya have it!

[OHappyDay]

I write this in hopes of setting a few facts straight for the record. 1.) The church has never been affliated with the ALJC or the UPC. 2.) The church was set up as a 501c3. 3) The church has always had a board of trustees. 4.) The church has always had bylaws. 5.) The original bylaws are not, I repeat, are NOT the bylaws that are in place now or are being used now. The bylaws were changed after the Bishop became ill and mentally incapacitated. They have been changed multiple times to fit the WILL of the daughter. 6.) One by one the board members were slowly replaced by "yes men". They follow her and her "boyfriend's" every instruction. This is when the bylaws and everything else was changed. 7.) The daughter had complete control of the dad including his medicine. She is a former nurse. She also has power of attorney of the entire estate. 8.) As per the previous points, this left other members of the family POWERLESS.

[Esaias]

I write this in hopes of setting a few facts straight for the record.The church was set up as a 501c3.

And this is what allows for such power-struggles to carry on - setting up a corporation allows the people who set it up to dictate what it does and where the property goes etc.

If the Board breaks it's own by-laws the best that can happen is a civil suit?

Gee, won't THAT be a fun thing.

By the way... setting up a corporation and passing it off to others as 'the church' would seem like false advertising, to me... just saying...

[rgcraig]

Wow - - that could get pretty sticky if there is rental property involved in the 501c3.

[OHappyDay]

The reason why I am setting a few facts straight is the daughter will deny the allegations on the internet as being inaccurate or wrong. But only small parts of it were wrong/small inaccuracies. The allegations overall as a whole are true.

9.) The Bishop himself and other men in the church were affliated with various organizations. But never the church itself.
10) The two sons and the two grandsons are ministers and are GOOD MEN. The youngest son pastors in Colorado Springs, CO. The youngest grandson pastors in Lousiana. The eldest son and the eldest grandson pastor a church in the suburbs.
11.) Dear saints of God have been leaving the church because of the relationship between the daughter and the new "pastor" for a very long time. This relationship was kept hidden from the Bishop. And these two used their positions in the church and their control over the Bishop against any opposition as previously mentioned in the above thread.
12.) The church was set up correctly in accordance with the IRS and Biblical laws.

[Steve Epley]

The reason why I am setting a few facts straight is the daughter will deny the allegations on the internet as being inaccurate or wrong. But only small parts of it were wrong/small inaccuracies. The allegations overall as a whole are true.

9.) The Bishop himself and other men in the church were affliated with various organizations. But never the church itself.
10) The two sons and the two grandsons are ministers and are GOOD MEN. The youngest son pastors in Colorado Springs, CO. The youngest grandson pastors in Lousiana. The eldest son and the eldest grandson pastor a church in the suburbs.
11.) Dear saints of God have been leaving the church because of the relationship between the daughter and the new "pastor" for a very long time. This relationship was kept hidden from the Bishop. And these two used their positions in the church and their control over the Bishop against any opposition as previously mentioned in the above thread.
12.) The church was set up correctly in accordance with the IRS and Biblical laws.

I do not think the ALJC has church affliation only a ministers' fellowship thus the org. wpuld have no legal power only influence. If the other family members cannot exercise influence and old friends of the former pastor then forget it.

[OHappyDay]

13.) This church was a powerful church and did become very large. The numbers stated in this thread are incorrect. The church grew to somewhere between 700-800 people at its peak. There were 4-6 school buses to pick up people. Some of the buses would have to make multiple trips. But the church is located in a part of town that has been in decay for years and the numbers dropped substantially over time. As of a few years ago it still ran a good number.
14.) Bishop did not set it up as a kingdom nor did he run it as a kingdom. Bishop and his wife were Godly, God fearing people who gave themselves regularly to prayer and fasting even in their last few years. The Bishop's wife personally knocked over 20,000 doors in that community all to further the Kingdom OF GOD.
15.) It is true, I repeat, it is true that the daughter has threatened to sue people for slander and has threatened much more. That's crippling many attempts to help the people of this church.

[Esaias]

The reason why I am setting a few facts straight is the daughter will deny the allegations on the internet as being inaccurate or wrong.

Anybody who would deny internet allegations is clearly delusional!

:thumbsup




Sorry, I'm bowing out now, I really don't have a dog in this fight. Hopefully the people of God will find peace.

[KeptByTheWord]

13.) This church was a powerful church and did become very large. The numbers stated in this thread are incorrect. The church grew to somewhere between 700-800 people at its peak. There were 4-6 school buses to pick up people. Some of the buses would have to make multiple trips. But the church is located in a part of town that has been in decay for years and the numbers dropped substantially over time. As of a few years ago it still ran a good number.
14.) Bishop did not set it up as a kingdom nor did he run it as a kingdom. Bishop and his wife were Godly, God fearing people who gave themselves regularly to prayer and fasting even in their last few years. The Bishop's wife personally knocked over 20,000 doors in that community all to further the Kingdom OF GOD.
15.) It is true, I repeat, it is true that the daughter has threatened to sue people for slander and has threatened much more. That's crippling many attempts to help the people of this church.

Even in light of your information, I repeat my stance on this issue. The daughter may think she has won this "battle" but she has not won the war.

The church will be a shell of what it was, with the spirit of the Lord departed, and it won't be long before all she has sought to set up will come to naught.... unless she finds a place of true repentance.

[Rapture 1]

The church was ALJC until a few years ago. Most of the people didn't know the pastor had got out of it. It was started as ALJC about 58 years ago with Bro R and then Bro P. Bro P and Bro W wrote the ByLaws at that time. Every one who went there years ago can tell you that. The old building probably held about 300 to 400.Thats why they built a new building. I don't know how many that held. But it's been going down in numbers in the last few years. Several of the older members live in that area that is still safe, so, they don't have to drive but a few blocks. The church did have some large school buses at one time
to pick up kids, but I believe that was quiet a while ago. Years ago the church fellowshiped with the West Tn district of ALJC. There were some good times and good memories for everyone during that time ,everyone says. The Late Pastor does have some great sons and grandchildren that go eleswhere. And his wife was a fantastic teacher, very smart lady. She definitely knew her bible history!!
From what I understand, the by Laws have been changed more that once, over the years. And so many of the board members have died, got upset (?) and gone on somewhere else. The present board was appointed by the late pastor, and not voted on by the people.

[OHappyDay]

16.) Again I state, the ministers have been affiliated with the ALJC, but NOT the church itself.
17.) The church building, the church property, and any funds "hidden or unhidden" would make for a nice retirement package, dont ya think... equals incentive.

[KeptByTheWord]

Sure, it all would make a nice retirement package, but what about the eternity fund.... this would be the one worth worrying about.... which would be in great jeopardy without a heart of repentance ....

If indeed this is her plan, to eventually shut the church down, and "enjoy" herself a nice little retirement, seems she has perfectly executed the plan, at least in this life. But there is eternity to be concerned about, and apparently that is not playing the least bit of importance to her right now. But God keeps a good record book.... her day will come.

It is really so sad to see the Jezebel spirit manifesting when she had such kind, godly, wonderful parents.

Will continue to pray that her heart will be changed. We are commanded by Jesus to "love our enemies" and though this is hard to do in the midst of the battle, if you can persevere, and pray for this woman and her cohorts with a sincere desire to see the Lord do a mighty miraculous work, the cards on the table could shift in a mighty and miraculous way. There is no obstacle too big that God can't remove it.

I am praying in that way. This church and this situation is near and dear to my heart as they provided healing, and comfort to our family in our time of need years ago, and I will continue to hold them up before the Lord.

[StillStanding]

13.) This church was a powerful church and did become very large. The numbers stated in this thread are incorrect. The church grew to somewhere between 700-800 people at its peak. There were 4-6 school buses to pick up people. Some of the buses would have to make multiple trips. But the church is located in a part of town that has been in decay for years and the numbers dropped substantially over time. As of a few years ago it still ran a good number.
14.) Bishop did not set it up as a kingdom nor did he run it as a kingdom. Bishop and his wife were Godly, God fearing people who gave themselves regularly to prayer and fasting even in their last few years. The Bishop's wife personally knocked over 20,000 doors in that community all to further the Kingdom OF GOD.
15.) It is true, I repeat, it is true that the daughter has threatened to sue people for slander and has threatened much more. That's crippling many attempts to help the people of this church.

Thanks for setting the record straight. I must say that even though the church had an appointed trustee board, it did not have a regular church board, which members are normally proposed by the pastor and approved by church member vote. A trustee board is for legal property and asset purposes. They do not set and approve budgets, plus approve policy and all business matters of the church.

This church was run with an autocratic leadership style which is common in conservative Pentecostal circles.

Nobody is accusing the former bishop of abusing power, in fact, everyone that I know loved him very much! The
only problem was the vacuum of power that was created when he passed away.

My heart goes out to all the wonderful and godly people that have been disenfranchised and bullied in,this church situation. I'm praying that all find peace.

[mizpeh]

That's what I was saying... must be my lack of traditional upbringing. I can understand the hurt and pain, but I honestly cannot understand (relate, maybe?) the idea of not feeling at home with Holy Ghost people. I have stopped in for a meeting out of state at a church I saw listed in the phone book... and felt right at home. Same Spirit.

Course, they say Tennessee is a lot like Texas, so...

:nodI've felt that same Spirit in Trinitarian Pentecostals churches as well.

[HolyFire]

Even in light of your information, I repeat my stance on this issue. The daughter may think she has won this "battle" but she has not won the war.

The church will be a shell of what it was, with the spirit of the Lord departed, and it won't be long before all she has sought to set up will come to naught.... unless she finds a place of true repentance.

If she can. I'll never say it's too late, but I'm reminded of a story from West Memphis, AR before I got there. Prophet R.L. M was preaching a revival there in the 80's. During service he stopped and said someone is going to die, they've been causing problems for a neighboring church. He said for them to make things right with that pastor (who happened to be there). The man responsible got up, went to the pastor, who accepted the apology and along w/ Bro. Ml, prayed him through (I believe that's how it went). What I know sure is Bro M called it out, the guy got right. After service he had a heart attack in the foyer, and before he was laid on sidewalk outside he was dead.

We tend to forget the severity of God, and major on the goodness. Hearing about Bro. C in Thailand and what befell those who opposed what God was trying to do, and other stories of people trying to wreck a church, it makes me wonder what's going to happen here. I'm nervous for this lady and preacher.

[ILG]

Really, ILG??? I can never listen to that song again. Thanks.

I am very sorry.

I do set fire to the rain! I love Adele. :)

[ILG]

He was a superintendent of the ALJC for a time and is a Bishop of a Church in another state and was asked by the deceased Pastor's daughter and her choice for Pastor to please come advise them. They gave him the right although the majority didn't like it.

Yeesh. It's the same all over it seems.

[ILG]

We tend to forget the severity of God, and major on the goodness. Hearing about Bro. C in Thailand and what befell those who opposed what God was trying to do, and other stories of people trying to wreck a church, it makes me wonder what's going to happen here. I'm nervous for this lady and preacher.

What happened there?

[StillStanding]

Oh yeah, I was told the daughter also had her new salary approved by the same bogus church vote! Why not milk it for all it's worth?

The daughter now is firmly in control of he church. The "new" pastor is her puppet! Her pitiful scorched earth scheme seems to have worked!

I believe that she thinks the sheep will return once things blow over. After all, they are lowly sheep that need a strong person like her to tell them what to do. She will be wrong! All she has accomplished is reducing the size of the church by 75%. Good luck with that fabulous salary with a church that runs 20 people! When will the epiphany come where she realizes she drove away the very people who were paying her salary?

I was told that former members will only consider returning if the daughter leaves! Unfortunately, that will never happen without a court order! Sad, sad day for the "wrecked church".

[Margies3]

Oh yeah, I was told the daughter also had her new salary approved by the same bogus church vote! Why not milk it for all it's worth?

The daughter now is firmly in control of he church. The "new" pastor is her puppet! Her pitiful scorched earth scheme seems to have worked!

I believe that she thinks the sheep will return once things blow over. After all, they are lowly sheep that need a strong person like her to tell them what to do. She will be wrong! All she has accomplished is reducing the size of the church by 75%. Good luck with that fabulous salary with a church that runs 20 people! When will the epiphany come where she realizes she drove away the very people who were paying her salary?

I was told that former members will only consider returning if the daughter leaves! Unfortunately, that will never happen without a court order! Sad, sad day for the "wrecked church".

yep! that salary approval means not a thing if there is no money available to pay it. And if there are no people, then there can be no money. Too bad for her. Hope she's not counting on those dollars cuz she sounds like she's gonna outa luck to me.

[CC1]

All she has accomplished is reducing the size of the church by 75%. Good luck with that fabulous salary with a church that runs 20 people! When will the epiphany come where she realizes she drove away the very people who were paying her salary?



If the church owns rental property as was mentioned I am guessing her income is paid from that cash flow more than the tithes of this small of a church.

[AreYouReady?]

Maybe baby girl will read this thread and get her "epiphany"?

She must have read Naomi Klein's book "The Shock Doctrine" in which the ultra rich use the "blank slate" practice to remake a place into what they want it to be. :(

[HolyFire]

What happened there?

Some American missionaries there opposed him and ended up insane. One native Thai pastor walked up to Bro C, who confronted the local guy about his adultery revealed to Bro C by God. Bro. C asked him "Are you living in adultery!?!?". The guy moved his mouth to say no, but God locked his jaws. For six months they were locked until he tracked down Bro. C, confessed (wrote it I guess) and was converted to Jesus Name/HG message.

[ILG]

If the church owns rental property as was mentioned I am guessing her income is paid from that cash flow more than the tithes of this small of a church.

That's what I was thinking.

[ILG]

Some American missionaries there opposed him and ended up insane. One native Thai pastor walked up to Bro C, who confronted the local guy about his adultery revealed to Bro C by God. Bro. C asked him "Are you living in adultery!?!?". The guy moved his mouth to say no, but God locked his jaws. For six months they were locked until he tracked down Bro. C, confessed (wrote it I guess) and was converted to Jesus Name/HG message.

Why doesn't anything like that ever happen around here? ;)

[Margies3]

Why doesn't anything like that ever happen around here? ;)

Because if someone's jaw was locked after the pastor spoke to them here, that person would see a lawyer and sue the pastor. We love to sue in this country!

[ILG]

Because if someone's jaw was locked after the pastor spoke to them here, that person would see a lawyer and sue the pastor. We love to sue in this country!

So God is keeping pastors from being sued? :dogkiss

[StillStanding]

If the church owns rental property as was mentioned I am guessing her income is paid from that cash flow more than the tithes of this small of a church.

Since the church is a 501(c)(3) religious organization, I wonder if the following rules apply to the rental properties:

From IRS website -
Unrelated Business Income Tax

Even though an organization is recognized as tax exempt, it still may be liable for tax on its unrelated business income. For most organizations, unrelated business income is income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the charitable, educational, or other purpose that is the basis of the organization's exemption. An exempt organization that has $1,000 or more of gross income from an unrelated business must file Form 990-T. An organization must pay estimated tax if it expects its tax for the year to be $500 or more.

The obligation to file Form 990-T is in addition to the obligation to file the annual information return, Form 990, 990-EZ or 990-PF. Each organization must file a separate Form 990-T, except title holding corporations and organizations receiving their earnings that file a consolidated return under Internal Revenue Code section 1501.


Inurement/Private Benefit - Charitable Organizations

A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization.

[Steve Epley]

I doubt very seriously this is 5013C organization. Might be incorporated by the State of Tennesee?

[StillStanding]

I doubt very seriously this is 5013C organization. Might be incorporated by the State of Tennesee?

Isn't a church required to be 501(c)3 if the members are allowed to deduct donations from their taxes?

[bishoph]

Isn't a church required to be 501(c)3 if the members are allowed to deduct donations from their taxes?

NO! Under the IRS tax code churches are automatically tax exempt and do not NEED to apply for a 501(c)3. In fact they are at this time exempt from having to file. Situations like this one will eventually lead to that not being the case.

[rgcraig]

Since the church is a 501(c)(3) religious organization, I wonder if the following rules apply to the rental properties:

From IRS website -
Unrelated Business Income Tax

Even though an organization is recognized as tax exempt, it still may be liable for tax on its unrelated business income. For most organizations, unrelated business income is income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the charitable, educational, or other purpose that is the basis of the organization's exemption. An exempt organization that has $1,000 or more of gross income from an unrelated business must file Form 990-T. An organization must pay estimated tax if it expects its tax for the year to be $500 or more.

The obligation to file Form 990-T is in addition to the obligation to file the annual information return, Form 990, 990-EZ or 990-PF. Each organization must file a separate Form 990-T, except title holding corporations and organizations receiving their earnings that file a consolidated return under Internal Revenue Code section 1501.


Inurement/Private Benefit - Charitable Organizations

A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization.

That's exactly what I'm wondering! The IRS might need to check into what's going on here.

[rgcraig]

I'm pretty certain that one of the members stated that it was 501(c)3.

[HeavenBound]

The church was ALJC until a few years ago. Most of the people didn't know the pastor had got out of it. It was started as ALJC about 58 years ago with Bro R and then Bro P. Bro P and Bro W wrote the ByLaws at that time. Every one who went there years ago can tell you that. The old building probably held about 300 to 400.Thats why they built a new building. I don't know how many that held. But it's been going down in numbers in the last few years. Several of the older members live in that area that is still safe, so, they don't have to drive but a few blocks. The church did have some large school buses at one time
to pick up kids, but I believe that was quiet a while ago. Years ago the church fellowshiped with the West Tn district of ALJC. There were some good times and good memories for everyone during that time ,everyone says. The Late Pastor does have some great sons and grandchildren that go eleswhere. And his wife was a fantastic teacher, very smart lady. She definitely knew her bible history!!
From what I understand, the by Laws have been changed more that once, over the years. And so many of the board members have died, got upset (?) and gone on somewhere else. The present board was appointed by the late pastor, and not voted on by the people.

All of this is true, when the Bible College was closed and then the Church school closed the Church rolls dropped very much. The church has a telephone book that lists less than 100 members and that includes people who live in other states and nursing homes. Now losing about 28 to 40 members, because of this.

[HeavenBound]

All of this is true, when the Bible College was closed and then the Church school closed the Church rolls dropped very much. The church has a telephone book that lists less than 100 members and that includes people who live in other states and nursing homes. Now losing about 28 to 40 members, because of this.

From my understanding the by-laws are the same ones that were in place in the 50's.

[StillStanding]

NO! Under the IRS tax code churches are automatically tax exempt and do not NEED to apply for a 501(c)3. In fact they are at this time exempt from having to file. Situations like this one will eventually lead to that not being the case.

Ok, I stand corrected! I'm on the board of two community 501(c)3 organizations, and the requirements are pretty stringent.

[Sam]

NO! Under the IRS tax code churches are automatically tax exempt and do not NEED to apply for a 501(c)3. In fact they are at this time exempt from having to file. Situations like this one will eventually lead to that not being the case.

by allowing a "church" to be tax exempt,
couldn't that be considered an establishment of religion by the state?

[StillStanding]

16.) Again I state, the ministers have been affiliated with the ALJC, but NOT the church itself.
17.) The church building, the church property, and any funds "hidden or unhidden" would make for a nice retirement package, dont ya think... equals incentive.

Yep!:thumbsup

[StillStanding]

by allowing a "church" to be tax exempt,
couldn't that be considered an establishment of religion by the state?

This is why we must walk softly here. As BishopH referred to, there are many instances where this church exemption has led to fraud.

[StillStanding]

I'm pretty certain that one of the members stated that it was 501(c)3.

Yep! Here is the quote:

"I write this in hopes of setting a few facts straight for the record. 1.) The church has never been affliated with the ALJC or the UPC. 2.) The church was set up as a 501c3. 3) The church has always had a board of trustees. 4.) The church has always had bylaws. 5.) The original bylaws are not, I repeat, are NOT the bylaws that are in place now or are being used now. The bylaws were changed after the Bishop became ill and mentally incapacitated. They have been changed multiple times to fit the WILL of the daughter. 6.) One by one the board members were slowly replaced by "yes men". They follow her and her "boyfriend's" every instruction. This is when the bylaws and everything else was changed. 7.) The daughter had complete control of the dad including his medicine. She is a former nurse. She also has power of attorney of the entire estate. 8.) As per the previous points, this left other members of the family POWERLESS."

I was assuming this was correct!

[AreYouReady?]

by allowing a "church" to be tax exempt,
couldn't that be considered an establishment of religion by the state?

No because the Internal Revenue Service is part of the Federal Reserve, which is not an elected governmental department.

Federal Reserve Board: As the nation’s central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.

http://factcheck.org/2008/03/federal-reserve-bank-ownership/


Is the Federal Reserve not under Constitutional Authority thus the reason why they can make rules and regulations regarding the finances of a church?

[rgcraig]

Yep! Here is the quote:

"I write this in hopes of setting a few facts straight for the record. 1.) The church has never been affliated with the ALJC or the UPC. 2.) The church was set up as a 501c3. 3) The church has always had a board of trustees. 4.) The church has always had bylaws. 5.) The original bylaws are not, I repeat, are NOT the bylaws that are in place now or are being used now. The bylaws were changed after the Bishop became ill and mentally incapacitated. They have been changed multiple times to fit the WILL of the daughter. 6.) One by one the board members were slowly replaced by "yes men". They follow her and her "boyfriend's" every instruction. This is when the bylaws and everything else was changed. 7.) The daughter had complete control of the dad including his medicine. She is a former nurse. She also has power of attorney of the entire estate. 8.) As per the previous points, this left other members of the family POWERLESS."

I was assuming this was correct!

So, if there's profit being made on the rental property that should be taxed correct?

[Esaias]

No because the Internal Revenue Service is part of the Federal Reserve, which is not an elected governmental department.

Federal Reserve Board: As the nation’s central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.

http://factcheck.org/2008/03/federal-reserve-bank-ownership/


Is the Federal Reserve not under Constitutional Authority thus the reason why they can make rules and regulations regarding the finances of a church?

Well.... A A A A A C T U A L L Y... the IRS is a private corporation registered in the US Virgin Islands and isn't even lawfully a governmental entity... buuuuut... we'll just let that one slide on by...

:heeheehee


The IRS does not make rules and regulations regarding churches, period. the IRS in their publication for churches states so. The courts have routinely held that government is prohibited by the 1st Amendment from even defining what a church is or is not.

A CORPORATION, on the other hand, and ESPECIALLY a 501(c)3 Corporation, are a whole nuther ball of wax. THOSe things are created by the state or federal government upon application with the state or federal Secretary of State. And as creations of the civil government, are subject to whatsoever 'reasonable and prudent' rules and regulations the government comes up with.

Churches are outside the jurisidiction of federal or state control as far as finances go.

Personal incomes, by the way, are a separate issue. (The Tax Man cometh!)

[Esaias]

So, if there's profit being made on the rental property that should be taxed correct?

Depends on who's name is on the deeds to those properties.

If the 501(c)3 corp's name is the deed holder, then they would qualify as income, but not necessarily taxable.

By the way, RENTAL INCOME is pretty much non-taxable, once you take out for depreciation. This is why people who properly invest in rental real estate make lots of money and pay little to no taxes.

:nod

[CC1]

Churches are going to face tougher scrunity regarding their non profit status for a lot of different reasons. One of them is an agenda against churches but another reason is abuse of non profit status.

They recently cracked down on Yoga studios in California because they were claiming to be "churches" and were claiming non profit status.

[Esaias]

Churches are going to face tougher scrunity regarding their non profit status for a lot of different reasons. One of them is an agenda against churches but another reason is abuse of non profit status.

They recently cracked down on Yoga studios in California because they were claiming to be "churches" and were claiming non profit status.

What's sad is that churches are already exempt from reporting. But once you claim 'non profit' you open a big ole can of worms, and lots of people will get burned because of unscrupulous charlatans.

Of course, if the tax structure wasn't so whacked out to begin with, none of this would really matter.

[ILG]

Churches are going to face tougher scrunity regarding their non profit status for a lot of different reasons. One of them is an agenda against churches but another reason is abuse of non profit status.

They recently cracked down on Yoga studios in California because they were claiming to be "churches" and were claiming non profit status.

Abuse of non-profits is likely a much larger reasons than an agenda against churches. I think most people who have an agenda against churches have that agenda because of abuse in the first place.

[StillStanding]

Christ Church in Nashville built a new building in 2005 that included a gym and work-out area. They had sports leagues rent the gym, and they charged a small monthly fee for church members to use the workout facilities for extra income to help meet their expenses.

The IRS came in and told them they had to pay taxes on the portion of the building used as a gym and workout area! They now lease it out to the YMCA and let them deal with the tax issues. They are still responsible for the back taxes, plus penalty and interest, for the past years of the gym's existence.

BTW, the new building had a book store with a coffee shop inside, and they had to shut down the bookstore and move it back into the main building to keep from paying taxes on it too!

If the "wrecked church" is indeed a 501(c)(3) organization, there could be enough abuse of their non-profit standing that the IRS could come in and do major damage!

[ILG]

I would just like to say how glad I am that there have been so few posts telling members, past members and others to "quit whining, stop gossiping, you are bitter, you are backslid" yada yada yada. These issues need to be discussed because it seems that the only thing that stops abuse is exposure.

[Rapture 1]

Still Standing, all correct I believe, except that the church was in ALJC for many years. The pastor was also in ALJC, dropped out a few years ago, joined UPC for a short while, then dropped out of that. When someone checked about the church not being in ALJC, he hadn't payed the fees. And of course he wasn't the one paying the bills!

[Rapture 1]

ILG, you are right! These people are not bitter, like so many people get. They are just very hurt and confused. I think ,from what I hear from them, is that they are even stronger in their faith. I have seen so many in situations similiar to this, start going to othr denominal churchs or quit completely. Not so with these people!! They are very strong and courageous people who have been wronged and are trying to deal with it the best they can.

[StillStanding]

ILG, you are right! These people are not bitter, like so many people get. They are just very hurt and confused. I think ,from what I hear from them, is that they are even stronger in their faith. I have seen so many in situations similiar to this, start going to othr denominal churchs or quit completely. Not so with these people!! They are very strong and courageous people who have been wronged and are trying to deal with it the best they can.

:thumbsup We must remember that these are people who stayed faithful to God and this church even when the bishop was in poor health with dementia. They did not abandon and look elsewhere when things got "awkward". These are precious saints that ANY church would be proud to have!

[Esaias]

I would just like to say how glad I am that there have been so few posts telling members, past members and others to "quit whining, stop gossiping, you are bitter, you are backslid" yada yada yada. These issues need to be discussed because it seems that the only thing that stops abuse is exposure.

Now who would do something like that?

:bigbaby

[StillStanding]

A quick word about the former pastor's two sons:

I have heard nothing but great things about these men of God! They have been extremely cordial and have empathized with the saint's struggle. They are two of the kindest men you'll find anywhere! It's too bad that they were powerless to do anything for the people of that church.

[AreYouReady?]

Well.... A A A A A C T U A L L Y... the IRS is a private corporation registered in the US Virgin Islands and isn't even lawfully a governmental entity... buuuuut... we'll just let that one slide on by...

:heeheehee

Yeah. There is a lot of controversy surrounding that one...but like you say, we'll just let that one slide on by.


The IRS does not make rules and regulations regarding churches, period. the IRS in their publication for churches states so. The courts have routinely held that government is prohibited by the 1st Amendment from even defining what a church is or is not.

A CORPORATION, on the other hand, and ESPECIALLY a 501(c)3 Corporation, are a whole nuther ball of wax. THOSe things are created by the state or federal government upon application with the state or federal Secretary of State. And as creations of the civil government, are subject to whatsoever 'reasonable and prudent' rules and regulations the government comes up with.

Churches are outside the jurisidiction of federal or state control as far as finances go.

Personal incomes, by the way, are a separate issue. (The Tax Man cometh!)

So...are you saying that churches may have been tricked into designating and applying for a 501 c 3 tax exempt status, thus making them a corporation that has to abide by the rules set forth by the IRS?

Tell me that is not true!

[ILG]

Now who would do something like that?

:bigbaby

My, I dunno. :drama

[CC1]

I would just like to say how glad I am that there have been so few posts telling members, past members and others to "quit whining, stop gossiping, you are bitter, you are backslid" yada yada yada. These issues need to be discussed because it seems that the only thing that stops abuse is exposure.

Naw, we won't tell them they are bitter and need to move on unless years later they are not going to church because of this horrible thing that happened in 2012.

[RandyWayne]

Naw, we won't tell them they are bitter and need to move on unless years later they are not going to church because of this horrible thing that happened in 2012.

Ya, give it 25-30 years and then only if they were involved in this whole mess as a teen, and if the parents of the teen were telling him/her to bow to the will of the daughter because she was God's Anointed.

[houston]

Naw, we won't tell them they are bitter and need to move on unless years later they are not going to church because of this horrible thing that happened in 2012.

You ain't gonna let it go, are you?

[houston]

Ya, give it 25-30 years and then only if they were involved in this whole mess as a teen, and if the parents of the teen were telling him/her to bow to the will of the daughter because she was God's Anointed.

good grief

[HeavenBound]

Oh yeah, I was told the daughter also had her new salary approved by the same bogus church vote! Why not milk it for all it's worth?

The daughter now is firmly in control of he church. The "new" pastor is her puppet! Her pitiful scorched earth scheme seems to have worked!

I believe that she thinks the sheep will return once things blow over. After all, they are lowly sheep that need a strong person like her to tell them what to do. She will be wrong! All she has accomplished is reducing the size of the church by 75%. Good luck with that fabulous salary with a church that runs 20 people! When will the epiphany come where she realizes she drove away the very people who were paying her salary?

I was told that former members will only consider returning if the daughter leaves! Unfortunately, that will never happen without a court order! Sad, sad day for the "wrecked church".

All things are possible through God, the battle may be over but if the members will think and listen instead of letting emotion rule, then the war is not lost. We still have options.

[HeavenBound]

A quick word about the former pastor's two sons:

I have heard nothing but great things about these men of God! They have been extremely cordial and have empathized with the saint's struggle. They are two of the kindest men you'll find anywhere! It's too bad that they were powerless to do anything for the people of that church.

This is so true. Bro.D.J. and Bro.C.J. are both great men of God. They feel for us.

[StillStanding]

This is my last post on this subject. Some innocent people have found out about this thread, have connected the dots of where and who we are speaking about, and have been hurt! Nobody likes to have their dirty laundry exposed to " God-knows-who". To all the innocent I apologize! I was wrong to cause more hurt and pain to an already hurtful and painful situation. My wife is one of those who is embarrassed that I started this thread.

As previously stated, my motivation for this thread was to expose what I believe to be leadership abuse in a scheme to force-feed a pastor to this church that the members overwhelmingly disapproved of for one reason or another. I couldn't stay silent when good and godly saints were given certified letters that they were no longer members of a church that they have attended for 50+ years. Their sin? They had voted "no" on the ballot for the new pastor! The rest is now history.

For the record, I have never been a member of this church. It has been brought to my attention that some of what I have written is true, but some may be untrue. Either way, I will now just pray that all things work out for God's glory.

As I mentioned early in this thread, I have nothing to gain, but I could lose some precious friendships. I have simply been standing up and giving a voice to the disenfranchised and bullied. There is always collateral damage in conflicts, and I am deeply sorry for the innocent that have been embarrassed and hurt because of this thread.

[OHappyDay]

I would like to humbly apologize to the dear saints of G.R. and to the J family. They have gone through more than enough with the death of first the Bishop's wife and then the Bishop, but you cannot let evil men or women win. You must take a stand.

18) The newly elected pastor ("the boyfriend") and the daughter have both been divorced.
19) There have been allegations brought against the boyfriend by multiple women in the church (by multiple I mean more than 3) of improper conduct.
20) These allegations started prior to his nomination for pastor.
21) This caused many people to leave the church. There has been a domino affect ever since.

[ILG]

Ya, give it 25-30 years and then only if they were involved in this whole mess as a teen, and if the parents of the teen were telling him/her to bow to the will of the daughter because she was God's Anointed.

My kids don't go to church. One of them just started seeing a therapist for all this. These were formative years for my kids when all this happened. Then, we left the UPC and we all had to adjust to a completely new culture. Then, my husband got cancer. I would say the last three years have been peaceful. I think seeing a therapist might be a good idea. The therapist specializes in trauma.

We went to another church for four years after we left the UPC. We looked long and hard before picking this church. It was an evangelical church. We met with the pastor once and told him our story. He was kind to us that day, but seemed to shy away from us after that because of our background. This was a newer church and growing like mad. The pastor was and is very busy. My husband gathered all his courage and asked the pastor to sponsor him with global. Of course, global is a oneness org and the pastor is trinitarian. The pastor told him to get him the paperwork. My husband did. The pastor never filled it out or said another thing to my husband. After all we had been through, my husband just did not have the stomach to approach him again. He felt completely defeated and deflated. The pastor also told him he was going to have him speak about a missions trip. My husband was very excited. This was the first chance he had gotten since we left the UPC. Months went by and he wasn't asked. My husband was ready to throw in the towel but kept going to church because of me and the kids.

I talked to the youth minister about my son volunteering at the church. I felt he needed some involvement and mentorship especially after what we had been through. I talked to him through email and we got it all set up. My son was going to start after the youth minister got back from a vacation. My son was excited about this. I asked the youth minister if he wanted a reminder email from me when he got back from vacation. He said yes. I sent three. No response. When I told my son, he shrugged. He was so used to this kind of thing.

Easter Sunday morning a few years ago, I had been sick with anemia so we hadn't been to church in a couple weeks. I made an effort to be there that day. I was bending over to pick up a bulletin when WHACK! I saw stars. Literally. The guy in front of me, who was holding his daughter, fell backwards and hit me in the head with his chair with his weight and hers. My glasses flew. I almost blacked out. My husband picked up the glasses and was trying to give them to the guy. The usher ran up to the guy and asked him if he and his daughter were okay. I was so whacked that I couldn't even speak. No one asked me how I was at all. I went to the bathroom and cried my eyes out. This was my life. A man with no hurt or harm but a slight startle gets asked if he is okay and I, who am almost passed out (and I had a painful lump for two weeks) gets left completely ignored. It wasn't the instance as much as it was I saw all the events of my life in churches at that moment.

I never went back.

[Rapture 1]

In reply to STILL STANDING: I'm sorry if some people have been hurt or offended by any of these comments, but I'm glad you started this!! The most INOCENT people in all of this is, are the saints who have been wronged at GR church! They appreciate someone caring enough for them to stand up and let people know. As I have said before, not ONE preacher would come there and take up for them, only the ones who would speak up for "your pastor", and everyone knows who they are. No one wanted to get involved! They were just "sorry". The inocent ones are like the lady in her 80's, talking to the other ladies in the back, the daughter, passes by and thinking she overhears her dad being mentioned yells at the lady and says loudly "shut your mouth", and telling the same lady that her parents used to talk about her (the older lady) and her late husband and blaming the lady for things. Needless to say the lady was HURT and INOCENT. That is just one incident! There are so many more. Yes, these are the most INOCENT!! The others will go on with their lives, going to the church of their choice, while these, esp older, will never get over this hurt. They will go on living for God, and forgiving, but will never forget, and will always have a great sadness for the place that they had such great memories over the years.
Well, is that wedding bells I hear?? Wait, someone just told me "the fat lady hasn't sung yet!!!

[Esaias]

Yeah. There is a lot of controversy surrounding that one...but like you say, we'll just let that one slide on by.




So...are you saying that churches may have been tricked into designating and applying for a 501 c 3 tax exempt status, thus making them a corporation that has to abide by the rules set forth by the IRS?

Tell me that is not true!

:thumbsup

[AreYouReady?]

My kids don't go to church. One of them just started seeing a therapist for all this. These were formative years for my kids when all this happened. Then, we left the UPC and we all had to adjust to a completely new culture. Then, my husband got cancer. I would say the last three years have been peaceful. I think seeing a therapist might be a good idea. The therapist specializes in trauma.

We went to another church for four years after we left the UPC. We looked long and hard before picking this church. It was an evangelical church. We met with the pastor once and told him our story. He was kind to us that day, but seemed to shy away from us after that because of our background. This was a newer church and growing like mad. The pastor was and is very busy. My husband gathered all his courage and asked the pastor to sponsor him with global. Of course, global is a oneness org and the pastor is trinitarian. The pastor told him to get him the paperwork. My husband did. The pastor never filled it out or said another thing to my husband. After all we had been through, my husband just did not have the stomach to approach him again. He felt completely defeated and deflated. The pastor also told him he was going to have him speak about a missions trip. My husband was very excited. This was the first chance he had gotten since we left the UPC. Months went by and he wasn't asked. My husband was ready to throw in the towel but kept going to church because of me and the kids.

I talked to the youth minister about my son volunteering at the church. I felt he needed some involvement and mentorship especially after what we had been through. I talked to him through email and we got it all set up. My son was going to start after the youth minister got back from a vacation. My son was excited about this. I asked the youth minister if he wanted a reminder email from me when he got back from vacation. He said yes. I sent three. No response. When I told my son, he shrugged. He was so used to this kind of thing.

Easter Sunday morning a few years ago, I had been sick with anemia so we hadn't been to church in a couple weeks. I made an effort to be there that day. I was bending over to pick up a bulletin when WHACK! I saw stars. Literally. The guy in front of me, who was holding his daughter, fell backwards and hit me in the head with his chair with his weight and hers. My glasses flew. I almost blacked out. My husband picked up the glasses and was trying to give them to the guy. The usher ran up to the guy and asked him if he and his daughter were okay. I was so whacked that I couldn't even speak. No one asked me how I was at all. I went to the bathroom and cried my eyes out. This was my life. A man with no hurt or harm but a slight startle gets asked if he is okay and I, who am almost passed out (and I had a painful lump for two weeks) gets left completely ignored. It wasn't the instance as much as it was I saw all the events of my life in churches at that moment.

I never went back.

ILG, my heart breaks for you and your family!

I just want you to know that I understand exactly how you feel. Well, maybe not exactly. I have been through my own experience that I just cannot write about, but while it was traumatic for me, it is nothing what your family has been through. Maybe someday though.

The way I see this, the next time you go to a church for worship, it would be wise not to tell anybody anything about what happened to your family. It is quite possible that the pastor saw trouble coming to his little business corporation and he was thinking in terms of money and prestige instead of Christ and His Kingdom.

The way I see it, people who have been abused by those in the system have their opportunity to teach and preach Christ from without the camp. Christ has removed those of us from that system so that He can truly be head of His Church. It takes much more discipline on our part to study the Word, pray and be sincere in our walk because we do not have the critical "eye" of others looking at how we dress or how long our hair is. We have the opportunity to have bible studies or just to talk about Jesus without having to ask permission from some man who gets himself set up as a pastor (king) over others. Jesus told us we are not to have other people 'lording' over us for their is only one Church and one head of that church.

If you are interested, PM me and I will tell you how the Lord revived my husband after we left the church system.

[HeavenBound]

This is my last post on this subject. Some innocent people have found out about this thread, have connected the dots of where and who we are speaking about, and have been hurt! Nobody likes to have their dirty laundry exposed to " God-knows-who". To all the innocent I apologize! I was wrong to cause more hurt and pain to an already hurtful and painful situation. My wife is one of those who is embarrassed that I started this thread.

As previously stated, my motivation for this thread was to expose what I believe to be leadership abuse in a scheme to force-feed a pastor to this church that the members overwhelmingly disapproved of for one reason or another. I couldn't stay silent when good and godly saints were given certified letters that they were no longer members of a church that they have attended for 50+ years. Their sin? They had voted "no" on the ballot for the new pastor! The rest is now history.

For the record, I have never been a member of this church. It has been brought to my attention that some of what I have written is true, but some may be untrue. Either way, I will now just pray that all things work out for God's glory.

As I mentioned early in this thread, I have nothing to gain, but I could lose some precious friendships. I have simply been standing up and giving a voice to the disenfranchised and bullied. There is always collateral damage in conflicts, and I am deeply sorry for the innocent that have been embarrassed and hurt because of this thread.

Please do not be sorry you started this. Some good may come from it yet. I have been encouraged by some responses from this. I for one want to Thank You for bringing this out into the open. Abuse should never be swept under the rug. Also, I want to say that the innocent have no reason to be embarrassed and should be thankful there are people who care about their plight. God Bless everyone for their input and taking the time to voice their concern. I, myself was to the point where I was thinking Satan you've won, but encouragement has been given and I have been refortified.

[ILG]

ILG, my heart breaks for you and your family!

I just want you to know that I understand exactly how you feel. Well, maybe not exactly. I have been through my own experience that I just cannot write about, but while it was traumatic for me, it is nothing what your family has been through. Maybe someday though.

The way I see this, the next time you go to a church for worship, it would be wise not to tell anybody anything about what happened to your family. It is quite possible that the pastor saw trouble coming to his little business corporation and he was thinking in terms of money and prestige instead of Christ and His Kingdom.

The way I see it, people who have been abused by those in the system have their opportunity to teach and preach Christ from without the camp. Christ has removed those of us from that system so that He can truly be head of His Church. It takes much more discipline on our part to study the Word, pray and be sincere in our walk because we do not have the critical "eye" of others looking at how we dress or how long our hair is. We have the opportunity to have bible studies or just to talk about Jesus without having to ask permission from some man who gets himself set up as a pastor (king) over others. Jesus told us we are not to have other people 'lording' over us for their is only one Church and one head of that church.

If you are interested, PM me and I will tell you how the Lord revived my husband after we left the church system.

Hey AYR,

Last time I went to church (a couple weeks ago) it was to the Catholic church with my Mom. I have panic attacks even listening to pentecostal worship or anything similar. One of my kids (non-gender specific) went to a UPC church a few times a while back this COM (Child of Mine) told them who this COM was and the pastor and his wife whisked this COM off to dinner. This COM was labeled as "hurting". I encouraged this COM to do whatever it takes to heal, if that means go to a UPC to visit or to a therapist. Whatever. I would not want this COM to become part of a UPC but I find that highly unlikely.

I don't really want sympathy as much as I just want people to listen and not beat me when I tell my story.

You are welcome to PM me and tell me your story. I will read it. I think it will probably roll off like water on a rock, but nothing ventured nothing gained. :) I appreciate the interaction.

[AreYouReady?]

I don't really want sympathy as much as I just want people to listen and not beat me when I tell my story.

You are welcome to PM me and tell me your story. I will read it. I think it will probably roll off like water on a rock, but nothing ventured nothing gained. :) I appreciate the interaction.

Well then....if telling our experience of how God revived my husband will just "roll off like water on a rock", then I guess there is no point in telling it because it is very near and dear to our hearts.

I just cannot get to the place where I can write about the terrible experience we had in UPC here in this forum. It is nothing as bad as yours, but it was a deep learning experience.

Concerning sympathy...a person cannot tell their heart-wrenching story and not garner some sympathetic responses from the reader. I have sympathy for your family because I recognize that what is happening in our churches today is the work of Satan. People have allowed Satan to come in and divide and conquer the people by using and twisting God's Word to achieve that. My sympathy is for all the lives that have been bruised and wrecked because of the devil's knowledge of human behavior. He knows about humanity's fallen nature and the love of lust, greed and power over others is a driving force. Satan uses it to destroy man's love for one another by putting material things and personal love and preferences over the body of Christ.

I sympathize and grieve that we (mankind in general) have allowed the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life to reduce the outreach effectiveness of the church to the lost. Some preachers and people have unwittingly created hardships for others, especially for preachers who are totally devoted and sincere to the cause of Christ. People are skeptical of what they see and hear now because they simply do not know who is the real deal and who is building their own business/kingdom. They see the greed from the television preachers. They feel the tug of the Holy Spirit when they watch the television preachers because God can use all communications from people for His glory. Then they feel the rug pulled out from under them when the T.V powers that be expose preacher greed. Not only on television, but also in sad cases like what happened here. And this is only a speck in a tank of situations where the devil came in to steal and to destroy. People feel their spiritual rape because many put their all into a system rather than into God. :(

Christ's blood is always powerful and effective in saving our souls and to give us everlasting life...but man has reduced themselves into entering mere "clubs" because they refuse to apply that blood to their lives and take upon themselves the power that Christ has given to them.

This is where my sympathy lies.

[ILG]

Well then....if telling our experience of how God revived my husband will just "roll off like water on a rock", then I guess there is no point in telling it because it is very near and dear to our hearts.

Yes, I am sorry. I probably sound callous and don't mean to. I would like to hear your story.

I just cannot get to the place where I can write about the terrible experience we had in UPC here in this forum. It is nothing as bad as yours, but it was a deep learning experience.

I fully understand that. How long ago was it?

Concerning sympathy...a person cannot tell their heart-wrenching story and not garner some sympathetic responses from the reader. I have sympathy for your family because I recognize that what is happening in our churches today is the work of Satan. People have allowed Satan to come in and divide and conquer the people by using and twisting God's Word to achieve that. My sympathy is for all the lives that have been bruised and wrecked because of the devil's knowledge of human behavior. He knows about humanity's fallen nature and the love of lust, greed and power over others is a driving force. Satan uses it to destroy man's love for one another by putting material things and personal love and preferences over the body of Christ.

I sympathize and grieve that we (mankind in general) have allowed the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life to reduce the outreach effectiveness of the church to the lost. Some preachers and people have unwittingly created hardships for others, especially for preachers who are totally devoted and sincere to the cause of Christ. People are skeptical of what they see and hear now because they simply do not know who is the real deal and who is building their own business/kingdom. They see the greed from the television preachers. They feel the tug of the Holy Spirit when they watch the television preachers because God can use all communications from people for His glory. Then they feel the rug pulled out from under them when the T.V powers that be expose preacher greed. Not only on television, but also in sad cases like what happened here. And this is only a speck in a tank of situations where the devil came in to steal and to destroy. People feel their spiritual rape because many put their all into a system rather than into God. :(

Christ's blood is always powerful and effective in saving our souls and to give us everlasting life...but man has reduced themselves into entering mere "clubs" because they refuse to apply that blood to their lives and take upon themselves the power that Christ has given to them.

This is where my sympathy lies.

Yes, I understand. Thanks for caring. It's so hard for me to open up on the forum because I am always watching my back for people to throw in the dagger. I am trying and again I apologize for coming across as callous.

[AreYouReady?]

I understand the feeling of wanting to protect ourselves. :) I've had my share of daggers, fiery arrows and spears shoot my way.

Now I try to catch them before they can penetrate deep.

[Sam]

...I never went back.

and why would you go back?

why would you even want to be a part of a church like that?


It's so sad that because of our carnality and sectarianism we have wounded and destroyed so many people, leaving the path behind us strewn with human wreckage. There are many who are so wounded and alienated that they will never darken the doorway of a church building again.

[CC1]

This is my last post on this subject.

Oh you have done it now. Posting that it is one's "last post" on a thread is a sure fire way to guarantee there will be new posts you will just have to respond to!!!! You are old enough you should know better. LOL

[Praxeas]

Praxeas is waiting for StillStanding's next post :heeheehee

[ILG]

[QUOTE]and why would you go back?

why would you even want to be a part of a church like that?

Thanks, Sam. I have never really been part of a truly caring church (except maybe the one we started). I don't know what that would feel like.

It's so sad that because of our carnality and sectarianism we have wounded and destroyed so many people, leaving the path behind us strewn with human wreckage. There are many who are so wounded and alienated that they will never darken the doorway of a church building again.

Yeah, I don't know that I ever can be a part of a church again. I miss the community and being part of people with good moral standards, which is why I end up coming around here.

[ILG]

I have shared some horrific things on this thread. Now, I would like to share a beautiful thing (intertwined in some more horrific stuff). But, I do believe that God does show Himself, at times, to people in bad situations. It doesn't really counteract emotionally the bad things that were done. At least not immediately. I don't understand God's timetable or justice balances, I can only tell you what happened.

I saw things like this off and on throughout our ordeal but this was the most personal thing.

I believe in the power of prayer and I believe that prayer changes things both for the good and for the bad. Just as it takes more work to build a house than tear it down and just as it takes more work to clean a mess than make one, I believe that when people pray prayers against you, it comes at you with a force. This is a spiritual war.

Many people were praying against us because they believed us to be evil. We had horrible forces coming against us. One day that I remember in specific brings this out. The lawsuits had both been dropped. We were breathing a sigh of relief when my husband was attacked with a kidney stone. He had lithotripsy (surgery) to break up the stone. We thought that was over. But then, he was facing the pain again (which is horrific) and went back in. They said it had not broken up and he would need surgery again. The same day, my cat got a urinary tract infection and began peeing all over the house. The very same day, we got a letter in the mail from the county saying they were looking into legal action against us because of something we did with the property (that was approved by our attorney). We heard that the people that had sued us and tormented us for a couple of years and couldn't torture us any longer because they dropped the suit went down to the county and were raising a big stink about this issue. They were trying to get the county to sue us. I about fell to my knees when I read that. It was horrifying.

I had to get out of the house and get some relief. I decided to go to a little Amish store and just feel the peace. I pulled up and one of the ladies from the lawsuit walked right in front of my car at the Amish store. I drove to a park and let God have it. I shook my fist at Him. I said "After all we've done for you and this is what we get??!!" I had a lot of choice words for God at that moment. The heavens were not speaking as I railed on and on.

My husband had surgery. Afterwards, the surgeon came out to speak to me saying they had found a small tumor in my husband's bladder. I was completely numb. I had no questions.

After the tumor went to the lab, we got the call...it was cancerous. My husband, through tears in his eyes was telling me that if the first lithotripsy would have worked, they would not have gone into the bladder to remove the stone and they never would have found the cancer. It is a slow growing cancer and they never would have known until it was too late. My husband would be dead right now if they had not found it.

When my husband told me this, I was so numb. I could see he was deeply moved. I could not feel anything. It was 6 or 8 months later that I finally got it.

My husband would be dead right now if it were not for this. I was railing at God and the second surgery was exactly what my husband needed to save his life.

A while later we got a letter from the county. They had made a mistake. They dropped the issue.

I wrote this to say that things like this happened on and off throughout the ordeal. I saw the hand of God in amazing ways.

I still don't understand why we went through all this.

Anyway, my husband did get testicular cancer after we left the UPC. He is doing well now. Hopefully, he will continue to do so.

[CC1]

We were breathing a sigh of relief when my husband was attacked with a kidney stone. He had lithotripsy (surgery) to break up the stone. We thought that was over. But then, he was facing the pain again (which is horrific) and went back in. They said it had not broken up and he would need surgery again.


My husband had surgery. Afterwards, the surgeon came out to speak to me saying they had found a small tumor in my husband's bladder. I was completely numb. I had no questions.

After the tumor went to the lab, we got the call...it was cancerous. My husband, through tears in his eyes was telling me that if the first lithotripsy would have worked, they would not have gone into the bladder to remove the stone and they never would have found the cancer. It is a slow growing cancer and they never would have known until it was too late. My husband would be dead right now if they had not found it.

When my husband told me this, I was so numb. I could see he was deeply moved. I could not feel anything. It was 6 or 8 months later that I finally got it.

My husband would be dead right now if it were not for this. I was railing at God and the second surgery was exactly what my husband needed to save his life.



I wrote this to say that things like this happened on and off throughout the ordeal. I saw the hand of God in amazing ways.

I still don't understand why we went through all this.

Anyway, my husband did get testicular cancer after we left the UPC. He is doing well now. Hopefully, he will continue to do so.

I hope sharing about your husband having to have that second surgery inspires someone who is questioning God about why something is happening or not happening. Sometimes we are so close to the situation we can't see that in some short term pain or aggravation there may be some better good that comes from it.

Not anywhere on the level of your story but when I was a young father I had lost my job and had to take a new one making a bout half the money I had been making. There was no way to make ends meet with the debt obligations we had.

One Wednesday night my wife stayed home from church with a sick child and on my way home I had to stop at the grocery store with a list of food and over the counter medicine we needed.

I think I had about $10 and quickly realized that to get everything on the list would be about three or four times what I had. Two things happened. First the grocery store had been bought out by another chain so they had all of the store brand items on clearance 50% 0 75% off so I was able to get a lot of the items I needed because of that.

The second and really miraculous thing was that as I was lingering at the meat counter holding a bulk package of ground beef in my hand and realizing that I didn't have enough money for as much of it as I needed to make some cheap meals I suddenly heard a voice from behind the counter say "you don't need that, you need this!".

A white coated butcher had appeared which surprised me since it was after 9 pm and the butcher department was closed. He then brought over to me a large family pack of lean ground beef marked at $0.99 per pound.

Where it really gets wild is that the next Wednesday night after church I went back to the same store. I felt silly doing it but decided to hang around the meat department looking at the meat to see if lightning would strike twice. Just as I was about to give up the same white coated butcher came around the corner behind the counter and again said "you don't need that, you need this!" and proceeded to go get me another large pkg of ground beef marked $0.99 lb.

I grinned sheephishly at him and said "I was beginning to think you weren't here tonight". It was his answer that really freaked me out and made me think maybe I was dealing with an angel. In phrasing that was kind of formal and awkward for modern english he said something like " You must make yourself known for me to help". It has been several decades now so I am sure I don't have the verbage exactly right but I distinctly remember a chill running down my spine and goosebumps on my arms after he spoke. I never saw him at that store again in the daytime or at night and we shopped there all of the time.

While what happened did not solve my financial problems it let me know that God is faithful. That he knew my situation and while there was not going to be an easy out he was not going to let me starve. He was looking out for me.

[Sam]

I hope sharing about your husband having to have that second surgery inspires someone who is questioning God about why something is happening or not happening. Sometimes we are so close to the situation we can't see that in some short term pain or aggravation there may be some better good that comes from it....



Three years ago we tore the wallpaper off the walls in our kitchen, had the walls prepared for painting, and then painted. We had to move a lot of stuff around and my wife developed a strong pain in her groin. She thought she may have pulled something while lifting, carrying, and moving stuff. When the pain persisted she went to her doctor. He thought it was something pulled and had x rays or something run and with pain medication the pain went away. After a few weeks the pain returned with a vengeance. Prayer did not take the pain away so she went to the hospital. There it was discovered that she had ovarian cancer and the cancer had burst. She had a complete hysterectomy plus her gall bladder was removed because it was infected and full of stones. The cancer was the size of a grapefruit or softball and was completely contained within the ovary. If God had answered our prayer to take the pain away as we prayed, that cancer would not have been discovered and removed. A little over 3 years later her blood tests indicate that she is cancer free.

[KeptByTheWord]

These are all wonderful stories of God's intervention in the midst of what we thought was a bad difficult situation. I'll just share one of mine, although I have many ;)

Several years ago we had purchased a repossessed mobile home, and put it on our land. We had signed the papers with Palm Harbor and they had given us the green light to move in. They told us the information concerning our mortgage payment would be mailed to us. Shortly after we moved in, my husband's job dried up. About a month after we had moved in, I began to wonder how we were going to pay the mortgage payment that should now be due on this new home, and then realized, I had never received any paperwork concerning the payment!!

So I called Palm Harbor, and they said they were having problems getting the title, because the previous owners had divorced, and there were some probate issures.... so the title was tied up with the state, and they were still trying to get it released into our name, and until the title was released, we would not have to make a payment....

This just worried me even more, because I thought to myself... what if they don't get the title, will they kick us out of the home? When the title finally clears how much back pay are we going to have to pay?

Well, this went on for FIVE MONTHS! For five months we lived in our beautiful, new to us home without one SINGLE DIME paid for it.... and my husband's work still at a standstill!!!!

One day my husband got a call that work had picked up, and he worked that whole entire week (and his work continued on after that without a hitch!) The SAME DAY that his work picked up, I got a phone call from Palm Harbor saying they had finally gotten the title and that the first payment would not be due from us until the NEXT MONTH!!!!! And there was NO BACK PAY DUE! We lived for FREE in our beautiful new home for SIX months without paying a dime!!!!!

Now, I have told many people that story, but it still amazes me on the timing of it all. It seemed like such a bad thing when my husband's job just dried up, and we were so concerned about how we were going to make the mortgage, but long before we even knew to worry, God had the title tied up with the state and it was released the very same day my husband went back to work....

And this is the God who knows how many hairs are on our heads, and works out the most minute details of difficult situations far in advance of us ever being aware that we are going to need His help!

Thank you ILG for turning this long, sad thread into a way to glorify God, and give Him the glory for allowing us to go through difficult situations, in order that we might more clearly see His perfect timing, and attention to the smallest details of our lives!

[Sam]

These are all wonderful stories of God's intervention in the midst of what we thought was a bad difficult situation. I'll just share one of mine, although I have many ;)

Several years ago we had purchased a repossessed mobile home, and put it on our land. We had signed the papers with Palm Harbor and they had given us the green light to move in. They told us the information concerning our mortgage payment would be mailed to us. Shortly after we moved in, my husband's job dried up. About a month after we had moved in, I began to wonder how we were going to pay the mortgage payment that should now be due on this new home, and then realized, I had never received any paperwork concerning the payment!!

So I called Palm Harbor, and they said they were having problems getting the title, because the previous owners had divorced, and there were some probate issures.... so the title was tied up with the state, and they were still trying to get it released into our name, and until the title was released, we would not have to make a payment....

This just worried me even more, because I thought to myself... what if they don't get the title, will they kick us out of the home? When the title finally clears how much back pay are we going to have to pay?

Well, this went on for FIVE MONTHS! For five months we lived in our beautiful, new to us home without one SINGLE DIME paid for it.... and my husband's work still at a standstill!!!!

One day my husband got a call that work had picked up, and he worked that whole entire week (and his work continued on after that without a hitch!) The SAME DAY that his work picked up, I got a phone call from Palm Harbor saying they had finally gotten the title and that the first payment would not be due from us until the NEXT MONTH!!!!! And there was NO BACK PAY DUE! We lived for FREE in our beautiful new home for SIX months without paying a dime!!!!!

Now, I have told many people that story, but it still amazes me on the timing of it all. It seemed like such a bad thing when my husband's job just dried up, and we were so concerned about how we were going to make the mortgage, but long before we even knew to worry, God had the title tied up with the state and it was released the very same day my husband went back to work....

And this is the God who knows how many hairs are on our heads, and works out the most minute details of difficult situations far in advance of us ever being aware that we are going to need His help!

Thank you ILG for turning this long, sad thread into a way to glorify God, and give Him the glory for allowing us to go through difficult situations, in order that we might more clearly see His perfect timing, and attention to the smallest details of our lives!

In Genesis chapter 22 Abraham said "God will provide Himself a lamb" and when God did provide the sacrifice, Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (the Lord will see/provide). Our word provide means to make available, to furnish, to supply or equip, to arrange for or stipulate beforehand, to prepare or procure beforehand, to see ahead. It comes from pro (before or ahead) and videre (to see) and means that God sees our needs ahead of time and meets those needs at the proper time and with the proper timing. How many times have we looked back and seen how God was working so that the need was met on time?

[AreYouReady?]

Thank you KBTW for sharing your story.

I need the reminder that God cares for our every need.

[HeavenBound]

After reading these inspiring stories, I am once again refortified. When I woke this morning I felt a burden for someone, I prayed with tears running down my face asking God to please help us to do his will. I am totally convinced we are doing what He wants and that He will see us through.
Since everyone is sharing stories this is mine. I was a smoker for 46 years, my husband smoked also but quit about 16 years before I did. Of course like all who quit he nagged me to quit. Like all who don't I said I will when I'm ready. In March of 2009 I decided I was ready, got my Doctor to prescribe Chantix. I couldn't take it, for some reason it made me very sick. I tried the old fashioned way, just quit. lol, I didn't last 30 minutes. Did I mention I was a 3 pack a day smoker? So since I couldn't use a crutch, I didn't have any will power, I felt defeated and was smoking more than ever. This kept bearing on me, April 6, 2009 I woke around 4:00am , I went into our kitchen and lit my first cigarette of the day. I began thinking why is it I can go to Church and do without a cigarette for hours , but, feel the need for one as soon as I leave. I started praying that minute sitting there, I prayed strongly , then I went to my knees and prayed and ask forgiveness begging to be released from this addiction. I felt a warmth go through my entire body and knew I was free. I haven't touched a cigarette since and I've suffered no withdrawal, and no cravings. When God does something he does it right. Hallelujah!
Praise the Lord! Because, without him I would still be in bondage to my addiction. God is so good to me and I Believe He will see us through this newest Trial of Faith.

[ILG]

While what happened did not solve my financial problems it let me know that God is faithful. That he knew my situation and while there was not going to be an easy out he was not going to let me starve. He was looking out for me.

Thanks for sharing CC1. Spirituality is an odd thing. Even though I know some people do actually starve, I still see God. Faith is an interesting thing.

[ILG]

Three years ago we tore the wallpaper off the walls in our kitchen, had the walls prepared for painting, and then painted. We had to move a lot of stuff around and my wife developed a strong pain in her groin. She thought she may have pulled something while lifting, carrying, and moving stuff. When the pain persisted she went to her doctor. He thought it was something pulled and had x rays or something run and with pain medication the pain went away. After a few weeks the pain returned with a vengeance. Prayer did not take the pain away so she went to the hospital. There it was discovered that she had ovarian cancer and the cancer had burst. She had a complete hysterectomy plus her gall bladder was removed because it was infected and full of stones. The cancer was the size of a grapefruit or softball and was completely contained within the ovary. If God had answered our prayer to take the pain away as we prayed, that cancer would not have been discovered and removed. A little over 3 years later her blood tests indicate that she is cancer free.

Wow, that is so similar to my husband and the testicular cancer. He was out working with a post hole digger and suddenly felt a weird pain run through and he began to enlarge. Apparently cancer doesn't usually cause pain or act like that.

[ILG]

These are all wonderful stories of God's intervention in the midst of what we thought was a bad difficult situation. I'll just share one of mine, although I have many ;)

Several years ago we had purchased a repossessed mobile home, and put it on our land. We had signed the papers with Palm Harbor and they had given us the green light to move in. They told us the information concerning our mortgage payment would be mailed to us. Shortly after we moved in, my husband's job dried up. About a month after we had moved in, I began to wonder how we were going to pay the mortgage payment that should now be due on this new home, and then realized, I had never received any paperwork concerning the payment!!

So I called Palm Harbor, and they said they were having problems getting the title, because the previous owners had divorced, and there were some probate issures.... so the title was tied up with the state, and they were still trying to get it released into our name, and until the title was released, we would not have to make a payment....

This just worried me even more, because I thought to myself... what if they don't get the title, will they kick us out of the home? When the title finally clears how much back pay are we going to have to pay?

Well, this went on for FIVE MONTHS! For five months we lived in our beautiful, new to us home without one SINGLE DIME paid for it.... and my husband's work still at a standstill!!!!

One day my husband got a call that work had picked up, and he worked that whole entire week (and his work continued on after that without a hitch!) The SAME DAY that his work picked up, I got a phone call from Palm Harbor saying they had finally gotten the title and that the first payment would not be due from us until the NEXT MONTH!!!!! And there was NO BACK PAY DUE! We lived for FREE in our beautiful new home for SIX months without paying a dime!!!!!

Now, I have told many people that story, but it still amazes me on the timing of it all. It seemed like such a bad thing when my husband's job just dried up, and we were so concerned about how we were going to make the mortgage, but long before we even knew to worry, God had the title tied up with the state and it was released the very same day my husband went back to work....

And this is the God who knows how many hairs are on our heads, and works out the most minute details of difficult situations far in advance of us ever being aware that we are going to need His help!

Thank you ILG for turning this long, sad thread into a way to glorify God, and give Him the glory for allowing us to go through difficult situations, in order that we might more clearly see His perfect timing, and attention to the smallest details of our lives!

Wow! If only all trials worked that smoothly!! :)

[ILG]

In Genesis chapter 22 Abraham said "God will provide Himself a lamb" and when God did provide the sacrifice, Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (the Lord will see/provide). Our word provide means to make available, to furnish, to supply or equip, to arrange for or stipulate beforehand, to prepare or procure beforehand, to see ahead. It comes from pro (before or ahead) and videre (to see) and means that God sees our needs ahead of time and meets those needs at the proper time and with the proper timing. How many times have we looked back and seen how God was working so that the need was met on time?

Or not. I think sometimes it feels like we are being killed. Actually some people are killed. I guess we have to ask ourselves if we are going to have faith no matter what. I have faith because the alternative is too grisly. It means we are out here completely without hope. I just don't believe that. I think largely God adjusts our minds to deal with situations. Although there is plenty of suffering too. So, I can't say I know or understand that.

[ILG]

After reading these inspiring stories, I am once again refortified. When I woke this morning I felt a burden for someone, I prayed with tears running down my face asking God to please help us to do his will. I am totally convinced we are doing what He wants and that He will see us through.
Since everyone is sharing stories this is mine. I was a smoker for 46 years, my husband smoked also but quit about 16 years before I did. Of course like all who quit he nagged me to quit. Like all who don't I said I will when I'm ready. In March of 2009 I decided I was ready, got my Doctor to prescribe Chantix. I couldn't take it, for some reason it made me very sick. I tried the old fashioned way, just quit. lol, I didn't last 30 minutes. Did I mention I was a 3 pack a day smoker? So since I couldn't use a crutch, I didn't have any will power, I felt defeated and was smoking more than ever. This kept bearing on me, April 6, 2009 I woke around 4:00am , I went into our kitchen and lit my first cigarette of the day. I began thinking why is it I can go to Church and do without a cigarette for hours , but, feel the need for one as soon as I leave. I started praying that minute sitting there, I prayed strongly , then I went to my knees and prayed and ask forgiveness begging to be released from this addiction. I felt a warmth go through my entire body and knew I was free. I haven't touched a cigarette since and I've suffered no withdrawal, and no cravings. When God does something he does it right. Hallelujah!
Praise the Lord! Because, without him I would still be in bondage to my addiction. God is so good to me and I Believe He will see us through this newest Trial of Faith.

That's great and awesome! You probably feel a lot better physically too, I'd imagine!

[AreYouReady?]

After reading these inspiring stories, I am once again refortified. When I woke this morning I felt a burden for someone, I prayed with tears running down my face asking God to please help us to do his will. I am totally convinced we are doing what He wants and that He will see us through.
Since everyone is sharing stories this is mine. I was a smoker for 46 years, my husband smoked also but quit about 16 years before I did. Of course like all who quit he nagged me to quit. Like all who don't I said I will when I'm ready. In March of 2009 I decided I was ready, got my Doctor to prescribe Chantix. I couldn't take it, for some reason it made me very sick. I tried the old fashioned way, just quit. lol, I didn't last 30 minutes. Did I mention I was a 3 pack a day smoker? So since I couldn't use a crutch, I didn't have any will power, I felt defeated and was smoking more than ever. This kept bearing on me, April 6, 2009 I woke around 4:00am , I went into our kitchen and lit my first cigarette of the day. I began thinking why is it I can go to Church and do without a cigarette for hours , but, feel the need for one as soon as I leave. I started praying that minute sitting there, I prayed strongly , then I went to my knees and prayed and ask forgiveness begging to be released from this addiction. I felt a warmth go through my entire body and knew I was free. I haven't touched a cigarette since and I've suffered no withdrawal, and no cravings. When God does something he does it right. Hallelujah!
Praise the Lord! Because, without him I would still be in bondage to my addiction. God is so good to me and I Believe He will see us through this newest Trial of Faith.

HeavenBound, your story reminds me of when I was a smoker. I started smoking when I was 15-years-old and by the time I was 23-years-old, I was a 2 1/2 pack a day of the 100s length cigarettes. I was in a severe situation/trial that took my appetite and all I wanted was to smoke cigarettes. It was this situation that caused me to seek a higher power to help me. I did not know what to do and the situation was beyond what humans could do to help me. I did not know God, but started to seek Him.

I had to have a medical physical in order to start vocational school and it was during that physical that I was shocked to find that my weight dropped down to 89 lbs. I was 5 feet 6 inches tall. I was so emaciated that every bone in my body jutted out and my distance perception was out of whack and I ran into doors and furniture with my hips. I hid that little piece of information because I needed to keep my seat in vocational classes.

While I had not yet started to attend any church, I was praying for God to guide me. I was also praying for him to help me quit the cigarettes because I could not walk from one end of the room to the other without being short of breath. I was only 23! The cigarettes were killing me. Like you, I tried to quit cold turkey several times and I did last about 8 hours each time, but by 9 pm I was so in withdrawals that I would drive to the store and buy a pack and smoke 1/2 dozen before I could calm down and go to sleep. I kept on asking God to help me. I would cough and cough and one night I coughed up something white about the size of a marble, spongy looking. I tossed it away.

The next morning, I woke up and felt a sharp pain in the left side of my chest, it spread into the middle and down my left arm. I thought...ok this is it...I am having a heart attack at the age of 23. I had someone take me to the hospital and it turned out to be nearly half of my lung collapsed. They put a tube in my chest to evacuate the air that leaked out around the lung. I was in the hospital for 7 days..until it my lung scarred over and sealed the leak.

When I got out I knew I had lost more weight, but since I had never been more than 8 waking hours without a cigarette before, I took that as my cue to quit. I had not picked up a cigarette since 1979.

While I like your healing better than mine, I am still thankful that I was able to quit. I took it as a blessing in disguise :D

[ILG]

After I gave my heart to God (what three steppers call repentance), I never even wanted another cigarette. And I had smoked for 6 years (age 13-19). I've never smoked since.

[KeptByTheWord]

In Genesis chapter 22 Abraham said "God will provide Himself a lamb" and when God did provide the sacrifice, Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (the Lord will see/provide). Our word provide means to make available, to furnish, to supply or equip, to arrange for or stipulate beforehand, to prepare or procure beforehand, to see ahead. It comes from pro (before or ahead) and videre (to see) and means that God sees our needs ahead of time and meets those needs at the proper time and with the proper timing. How many times have we looked back and seen how God was working so that the need was met on time?

That's a wonderful thought Sam! Thanks for sharing! Praise God our Jehovah-Jirah!

[KeptByTheWord]

I've never smoked or had an addiction, raised in a OP home all my life, and the Lord has been so good to me, but I was blessed to hear of these stories from ILG, Heaven Bound, and AYR! Our Jehovah-Jirah is our provider in every way!

[OHappyDay]

22.) My heart goes out to the saints of G.R. church. Its not enough that they were fighting the secretary and the boyfriend but also the church board turned on the very saints that were supposed to be representing. As previously stated, most of the men on the church board have been replaced by the secretary and the boyfriend. They were chosen because they would support the secretary and the boyfriend.
23.) At least one of these men, possibly two, do not even have the Holy Ghost.
24.) Two of the three men that were supposedly "helping" the church members and leading the opposition against the secretary and the boyfriend had ulterior motives at heart. Both of these men want to pastor desperately but are not capable.
25.) One of the men stated previously in 24 is trying to build his own church. This would be a terrible idea for these elderly saints that have been through so much.
26.) The eldest son of the Bishop, who pastors in the suburbs, is a great man. The secretary (his sister) has done her best to blackball him. She has openly talked about him and has tried to run him down.
27.) The church in the suburbs, pastored by the son, is the closest Apostolic church and is located just a few minutes away from the "wrecked church".
28.) The son has graciously welcomed the former saints of G.R. to the church. He is probably the most qualified person to lead them as he is familiar with them both personally and knows the entire situation. He pastors a great church that is in revival. He is a true man of God with a "pastor's heart".

[HolyFire]

27.) The church in the suburbs, pastored by the son, is the closest Apostolic church and is located just a few minutes away from the "wrecked church".
28.) The son has graciously welcomed the former saints of G.R. to the church. He is probably the most qualified person to lead them as he is familiar with them both personally and knows the entire situation. He pastors a great church that is in revival. He is a true man of God with a "pastor's heart".

There is the answer. Azusa St. is now a Japanese cultural center. The revival lives on, the marker isn't. Take the history with them to the son's church.

[spirit902]

[If you knew this Pastor you would not make a judgement about him! and this I know for a fact, becausehe was a true man of God and loved the church]

I hate to say this, but situations like this need to be on the web and to be out in the open as a warning to all of God's people that things like this can and do happen to even the "best" of churches. The pastor knew that he was getting old and he should have gone before the church people to see what actions they wanted to take concerning the five-fold ministry.

I am both shocked and not at the same time because I have long recognized even the churches that appear to be strong may have a control issue. It was not the pastor's right to decide, along with his daughter who should succeed him. This is the makings of a "kingdom" and not the body of Christ.

I've said not long ago that many Oneness churches do not have the five-fold ministry operating in them. This appears to be one of them when there are no spiritual checks and balances within the body.

What is portrayed here is a true Jezebel spirit. She appears to be operating in the flesh on what she thinks may be her daddy's wishes instead of humbling herself down and asking God what to do.

If the monies come from the congregants tithe and offerings, then it is not hers to decide anything.

The people who were kicked out have some choices. They can go to court, which is not a biblical solution imo. The other pastors who were close and are afraid to get in the middle of the church fight are shirking their duties as men of God since it IS biblical for the saints to settle their own differences out of secular court.


The people who were kicked out should gather together in homes or a rented building and truly pray about their next move. This cannot be from God, but God can fix this problem if the people are given over to seeking His will through prayer.

The absolute worse thing that can happen for her is for the people to pray to God and let her fall into the hands of God. She should be more fearful of this than of any other remedy.[/QUOTE]

[AreYouReady?]

[If you knew this Pastor you would not make a judgement about him! and this I know for a fact, becausehe was a true man of God and loved the church]

I hate to say this, but situations like this need to be on the web and to be out in the open as a warning to all of God's people that things like this can and do happen to even the "best" of churches. The pastor knew that he was getting old and he should have gone before the church people to see what actions they wanted to take concerning the five-fold ministry.

I am both shocked and not at the same time because I have long recognized even the churches that appear to be strong may have a control issue. It was not the pastor's right to decide, along with his daughter who should succeed him. This is the makings of a "kingdom" and not the body of Christ.

I've said not long ago that many Oneness churches do not have the five-fold ministry operating in them. This appears to be one of them when there are no spiritual checks and balances within the body.

What is portrayed here is a true Jezebel spirit. She appears to be operating in the flesh on what she thinks may be her daddy's wishes instead of humbling herself down and asking God what to do.

If the monies come from the congregants tithe and offerings, then it is not hers to decide anything.

The people who were kicked out have some choices. They can go to court, which is not a biblical solution imo. The other pastors who were close and are afraid to get in the middle of the church fight are shirking their duties as men of God since it IS biblical for the saints to settle their own differences out of secular court.


The people who were kicked out should gather together in homes or a rented building and truly pray about their next move. This cannot be from God, but God can fix this problem if the people are given over to seeking His will through prayer.

The absolute worse thing that can happen for her is for the people to pray to God and let her fall into the hands of God. She should be more fearful of this than of any other remedy.[/QUOTE]



Since you chose to quote me [without quoting me] I will respond.

I have no doubt that the said pastor was a true man of God. A good man who loved the congregation like his own. I've heard him preach. I've heard him sing. His songs feel like they came from deep within his heart. The church I attended at the time held a wonderful revival with him as guest speaker.

That does not make him infallible though. He was but just flesh and blood like all of us. We all will go by the way of the grave if Christ doesn't return first.

It is understandable that flesh and blood wants to leave the remains of their work to their own. Not saying that is what happened here..because I simply was responding to what it looks like it reads on the web. It is not theirs to give. It belongs to the church...Christ's church.

I see far too many churches built by the sweat, toil and unselfish giving of all the people being handed down to the children of pastors all over. The church is not supposed to be men's church for the giving of the material possessions to someone else to own, but Christ's church for the material possessions to be used for His glory.

It is meant for the people to use the five-fold ministry that Christ built, not for people to squabble over the shell of remains of brick, mortar and power over others. It is meant to be in the hands of capable men that God gives to the church...not to heirs.

I apologize if this looks like some slur on Pastor ****'s reputation. I assure you it is not meant to be. It is meant to be a warning to other pastors who may read this of what can happened to a wonderful gathering of people if care is not taken to ensure that the church remains a thriving soul saving station for others to partake in after their death.

[CC1]

We should not lose sight of one of the person's who is suffering the most now. That would be "Still Standing" since he declared he has made his last post on this thread and you know good and well since it is still an active thread he is just dying to respond to some posts since then!

[ILG]

I am both shocked and not at the same time because I have long recognized even the churches that appear to be strong may have a control issue. It was not the pastor's right to decide, along with his daughter who should succeed him. This is the makings of a "kingdom" and not the body of Christ.
]

I agree with this.

[ILG]

I see far too many churches built by the sweat, toil and unselfish giving of all the people being handed down to the children of pastors all over. The church is not supposed to be men's church for the giving of the material possessions to someone else to own, but Christ's church for the material possessions to be used for His glory.


That is for sure.

[StillStanding]

It's hard to go into everything about this without hurting some feelings, but if you set down with the majority of the people at Grey Rd, they would tell you a different story about going to the "son's church". Most of them feel that he could have prevented this instead of encouraging D**** and K****, his sister. It is an ugly situation, that if everyone knew all about it, just wouldn't believe it. I and others believe the situation is
not hopeless, tho, and they will get their church back, but in the meantime, I am amazed at how strong and full of faith and courgage these people are. They are absolutely amazing. You can't help but love them!!!

I have to break my vow of silence to address this! (CC1 will be thrilled! :icecream)

I know for a fact that sons were calling and encouraging the disenfranchised saints of that church. They were powerless, and were hoping that a tentative preacher friend would come to head the transition to a new pastor. When that didn't happen, they were out of trump cards. Its as simple as that!

Place blame only on those who deserve blame!

Ok, I'm out! :nod

[Rapture 1]

The "son" was referring to "your pastor, Bro ***** "from the pulpit. He preached one night before the vote and was not encouraging. He is a great man, and I don't mean any disrespect, to him. But the people feel that he is more for his sister.

[StillStanding]

The "son" was referring to "your pastor, Bro ***** "from the pulpit. He preached one night before the vote and was not encouraging. He is a great man, and I don't mean any disrespect, to him. But the people feel that he is more for his sister.

The son never preached at GR church during this ordeal. You are correct that a visiting preacher did preach and say some things like you mentioned, but it wasn't the son.

[HeavenBound]

The son never preached at GR church during this ordeal. You are correct that a visiting preacher did preach and say some things like you mentioned, but it wasn't the son.

Bro.D did preach at our Church during this ordeal. I don't know where you get your info but it's obvious you do not attend G.Rd. Church.

[HeavenBound]

22.) My heart goes out to the saints of G.R. church. Its not enough that they were fighting the secretary and the boyfriend but also the church board turned on the very saints that were supposed to be representing. As previously stated, most of the men on the church board have been replaced by the secretary and the boyfriend. They were chosen because they would support the secretary and the boyfriend.
23.) At least one of these men, possibly two, do not even have the Holy Ghost.
24.) Two of the three men that were supposedly "helping" the church members and leading the opposition against the secretary and the boyfriend had ulterior motives at heart. Both of these men want to pastor desperately but are not capable.
25.) One of the men stated previously in 24 is trying to build his own church. This would be a terrible idea for these elderly saints that have been through so much.
26.) The eldest son of the Bishop, who pastors in the suburbs, is a great man. The secretary (his sister) has done her best to blackball him. She has openly talked about him and has tried to run him down.
27.) The church in the suburbs, pastored by the son, is the closest Apostolic church and is located just a few minutes away from the "wrecked church".
28.) The son has graciously welcomed the former saints of G.R. to the church. He is probably the most qualified person to lead them as he is familiar with them both personally and knows the entire situation. He pastors a great church that is in revival. He is a true man of God with a "pastor's heart".

It would be nice if people who have not attended GR Church in umpteen years would not write gossip that they do not personally know anything about. People like myself who is having to live with and through this would appreciate if you would just pray for the situation and not tick off (1) thru (28) points and getting 90% of them wrong. TY Also, in regards to #24 who are you to judge whether someone is qualified or not ? God doesn't always call the qualified, he qualifies the called. Judge not and you shall not be judged, plus personally I think you are wrong.

[HeavenBound]

I have to break my vow of silence to address this! (CC1 will be thrilled! :icecream)

I know for a fact that sons were calling and encouraging the disenfranchised saints of that church. They were powerless, and were hoping that a tentative preacher friend would come to head the transition to a new pastor. When that didn't happen, they were out of trump cards. Its as simple as that!

Place blame only on those who deserve blame!

Ok, I'm out! :nod

All I can say is that yes, Bro. D and Bro. C have been very compassionate. We are not giving up, just please pray about our situation and pray for all of us. I for one do not think God has forsaken us. :)

[StillStanding]

Bro.D did preach at our Church during this ordeal. I don't know where you get your info but it's obvious you do not attend G.Rd. Church.

I was not aware of this. If this is true, I stand corrected!

[HeavenBound]

It would be nice if people who have not attended GR Church in umpteen years would not write gossip that they do not personally know anything about. People like myself who is having to live with and through this would appreciate if you would just pray for the situation and not tick off (1) thru (28) points and getting 90% of them wrong. TY Also, in regards to #24 who are you to judge whether someone is qualified or not ? God doesn't always call the qualified, he qualifies the called. Judge not and you shall not be judged, plus personally I think you are wrong.

Also, let me correct you on one other fact the board that is in place at this very moment is the same one that was in place before Bishop D.J. went home to his reward.

[Sister Alvear]

praying for GR Church...

[OHappyDay]

It has been said that my post #1-28 is "90% wrong", that is simply not so. Everything that I have posted is backed up by fact and can be confirmed by way of the Bishop in MI, the son in CO, the son in the suburbs. If you dont care to confirm this maybe you don't want to know the truth. I would like to add, however, that we are on the same side. It is not us that should be fighting; we are fighting them (the daughter and the boyfriend). I have not done you wrong, they have done you wrong.
29) Just because you know what took place in the meetings at the church does not mean that you know what happened behind the scenes.
30) The previous point I made in #24 has been called into question. So let me offer a little proof. If you had been at GR longer than 20 years you would know the circumstances in this fellow leaving the church the first time. This fellow has attended the church previously but left under very, very bad circumstances. He wants to pastor so bad that he cant hardly stand it. But just because he "wants to " doesnt mean he "should". If you dont believe this you can call his former pastor in Rosemark. People may not like this point but the truth is the truth.
31.) As to the son in the suburbs, he took a most public stance when he was behind the churches pulpit at the Bishop's funeral. He prayed and I quote that the church and church family would be protected from the "ravenous wolves that would come against them". This was said for all to hear. The leaders of the ALJC and the UPC were on the platform and over 700 other people were present to witness this point.


I would like to thank the creator of this thread and the different church people that have contributed to this thread. The light must shine so darkness cannot exist.

[Ferd]

I think you should all choose up sides and smell armpits. loser has to pastor the whole bunch!

naananaanabooboo!

[HeavenBound]

It has been said that my post #1-28 is "90% wrong", that is simply not so. Everything that I have posted is backed up by fact and can be confirmed by way of the Bishop in MI, the son in CO, the son in the suburbs. If you dont care to confirm this maybe you don't want to know the truth. I would like to add, however, that we are on the same side. It is not us that should be fighting; we are fighting them (the daughter and the boyfriend). I have not done you wrong, they have done you wrong.
29) Just because you know what took place in the meetings at the church does not mean that you know what happened behind the scenes.
30) The previous point I made in #24 has been called into question. So let me offer a little proof. If you had been at GR longer than 20 years you would know the circumstances in this fellow leaving the church the first time. This fellow has attended the church previously but left under very, very bad circumstances. He wants to pastor so bad that he cant hardly stand it. But just because he "wants to " doesnt mean he "should". If you dont believe this you can call his former pastor in Rosemark. People may not like this point but the truth is the truth.
31.) As to the son in the suburbs, he took a most public stance when he was behind the churches pulpit at the Bishop's funeral. He prayed and I quote that the church and church family would be protected from the "ravenous wolves that would come against them". This was said for all to hear. The leaders of the ALJC and the UPC were on the platform and over 700 other people were present to witness this point.


I would like to thank the creator of this thread and the different church people that have contributed to this thread. The light must shine so darkness cannot exist.

as to #31 I'm not sure he was talking about Bro. DF or Sis. KK maybe he was talking about all those Preachers who came visiting thinking they might fill a vacated position. Who knows? He sure didn't tell me any names of anyone. Did he tell you?
I don't want to fight with anyone. Do you attend GR and if not when was the last time you were there besides for the Bishops funeral? I attend every Sunday.
I have one more question how do you know so much about what goes on behind the scenes are you kin to them?
I have asked why he left Rosemark, would you care to enlighten me? Nobody else will. Also, enlighten me about the bad situation when he left GR. You can leave a private message to do this if you prefer. Also in #24 you said there was 2 men, but, you now only mention one.

[CC1]

I have to break my vow of silence to address this! (CC1 will be thrilled! :icecream)

I know for a fact that sons were calling and encouraging the disenfranchised saints of that church. They were powerless, and were hoping that a tentative preacher friend would come to head the transition to a new pastor. When that didn't happen, they were out of trump cards. Its as simple as that!

Place blame only on those who deserve blame!

Ok, I'm out! :nod

I knew you wouldn't be able to hold out!!!!

[houston]

I love the "misuse" of quotations.

[Barb]

I have to break my vow of silence to address this! (CC1 will be thrilled! :icecream)

I know for a fact that sons were calling and encouraging the disenfranchised saints of that church. They were powerless, and were hoping that a tentative preacher friend would come to head the transition to a new pastor. When that didn't happen, they were out of trump cards. Its as simple as that!

Place blame only on those who deserve blame!

Ok, I'm out! :nod

He made a wise choice. :nod

[HeavenBound]

I was not aware of this. If this is true, I stand corrected!

StillStanding my apologies this was not meant for you it was meant for OHAPPYDAY.

[ILG]

Here is another song that reminds me of the UPC that I am going to learn to sing and play. (I just got to song and play somewhere recently! Woohoo! Yeah, it wasn't in a church it was at a lakeside gathering. :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTTjLxXFg0k

P.S. There is one swear word in this song (that the Bible also uses).

[Rapture 1]

The son never preached at GR church during this ordeal. You are correct that a visiting preacher did preach and say some things like you mentioned, but it wasn't the son.

Yes, he did preach during that time. He even had requested that everyone
that has attended there to be there. I think everyone went expecting for him to take up for the long timers, but he didn't. He even gave $1000, he said to keep the lights on.

[StillStanding]

Yes, he did preach during that time. He even had requested that everyone
that has attended there to be there. I think everyone went expecting for him to take up for the long timers, but he didn't. He even gave $1000, he said to keep the lights on.
I did not know this. I was wrong! Sorry!:surrender

[Rapture 1]

I did not know this. I was wrong! Sorry!:surrender

At least you are 98% right, most of the time! The preacher (Bro DC from OB) that preached sunday at Grey Rd, didn't know what he was preaching about. He talked about the apostolic forum is nothing but gossip!! So who does he listen to? I know he dosn't listen to the women!! He thinks they talk to much! He read some rules after sunday school one day (and he dosn't even attend there), that the women were not allowed to gossip or have any meeting outside church!! WHAT?? Yes, that's right. Ask anyone there! I don't believe he respects women, esp older women. I don't know why he preached that kind of sermon to 20 people and some of them visitors!

[Praxeas]

Here is another song that reminds me of the UPC that I am going to learn to sing and play. (I just got to song and play somewhere recently! Woohoo! Yeah, it wasn't in a church it was at a lakeside gathering. :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTTjLxXFg0k

P.S. There is one swear word in this song (that the Bible also uses).
Wow, here we go again bashing the Entire UPC

[Rapture 1]

I did not know this. I was wrong! Sorry!:surrender

I have to break my vow of silence to address this! (CC1 will be thrilled! :icecream)

I know for a fact that sons were calling and encouraging the disenfranchised saints of that church. They were powerless, and were hoping that a tentative preacher friend would come to head the transition to a new pastor. When that didn't happen, they were out of trump cards. Its as simple as that!

Place blame only on those who deserve blame!

Ok, I'm out! :nod

You should keep enough trump cards if you are going to stay in the game!!!!

[ILG]

At least you are 98% right, most of the time! The preacher (Bro DC from OB) that preached sunday at Grey Rd, didn't know what he was preaching about. He talked about the apostolic forum is nothing but gossip!! So who does he listen to? I know he dosn't listen to the women!! He thinks they talk to much! He read some rules after sunday school one day (and he dosn't even attend there), that the women were not allowed to gossip or have any meeting outside church!! WHAT?? Yes, that's right. Ask anyone there! I don't believe he respects women, esp older women. I don't know why he preached that kind of sermon to 20 people and some of them visitors!

Sheesh! I am also surprised that he would even mention the forum!

[AreYouReady?]

The real scandal is when folks who are not doing right, they don't like to be exposed. So they counter discussion by calling it gossip.

But oh no! They defame people who leave their church because they disagree with some rule or some way they have been shabbily treated. These pastors talk to other pastors about those people who are wanting to make a fresh start somewhere... and it is not called gossip. It is called ...what? Discussion? Reporting? Their opinion? But never it is called gossip when they blather on about somebody between themselves. I have no words for what comes out of their mouths that they try to destroy other people simply because they left their church.

[Rapture 1]

The real scandal is when folks who are not doing right, they don't like to be exposed. So they counter discussion by calling it gossip.

But oh no! They defame people who leave their church because they disagree with some rule or some way they have been shabbily treated. These pastors talk to other pastors about those people who are wanting to make a fresh start somewhere... and it is not called gossip. It is called ...what? Discussion? Reporting? Their opinion? But never it is called gossip when they blather on about somebody between themselves. I have no words for what comes out of their mouths that they try to destroy other people simply because they left their church.

You are so RIGHT!!!!!

[Nitehawk013]

The real scandal is when folks who are not doing right, they don't like to be exposed. So they counter discussion by calling it gossip.

But oh no! They defame people who leave their church because they disagree with some rule or some way they have been shabbily treated. These pastors talk to other pastors about those people who are wanting to make a fresh start somewhere... and it is not called gossip. It is called ...what? Discussion? Reporting? Their opinion? But never it is called gossip when they blather on about somebody between themselves. I have no words for what comes out of their mouths that they try to destroy other people simply because they left their church.

Most, not all by any means but most, of the folks who jump churches for a "fresh start" are just carrying their problems from one church to another and they should be reported to the new Pastor. He ought to get a heads up of the mess coming his way. The answer to people's problems is to pray through and get their heart right, not switch churches. They don't need a new church and Pastor, most of the time they need to get their spirit right.

[AreYouReady?]

Most, not all by any means but most, of the folks who jump churches for a "fresh start" are just carrying their problems from one church to another and they should be reported to the new Pastor. He ought to get a heads up of the mess coming his way. The answer to people's problems is to pray through and get their heart right, not switch churches. They don't need a new church and Pastor, most of the time they need to get their spirit right.

I disagree!

You are incorrectly assuming that all the fault lies with people who want to switch churches and the pastor plays no part.

No my friend, this isn't always the case! To say "most" people who do this is faulty assumption. How do you or anybody else know that "a mess" is coming their way? Many times that "mess" originates with the pastor. But nooooo....he doesn't gossip. That is a crock of lies too. I know plenty of so-called leaders who lie so that they can keep their positions in the organized church system.

To support this notion is to support what is wrong with the organized church system today and is part of the brainwashing many partake in.

[Dordrecht]

I left a church once because they don't believe in the gifts of the spirit.
Is that "carrying my problem from one church to another church" ??
:foottap

[StillStanding]

Most, not all by any means but most, of the folks who jump churches for a "fresh start" are just carrying their problems from one church to another and they should be reported to the new Pastor. He ought to get a heads up of the mess coming his way. The answer to people's problems is to pray through and get their heart right, not switch churches. They don't need a new church and Pastor, most of the time they need to get their spirit right.

It's interesting to read different perspectives.

While I agree that there are folks that leave churches with a bad spirit, I believe it is a small minority. In my experience, almost all that have left a church was because of a doctrinal disagreement, perceived abuse of power by leadership, or personality conflict. In these situations, should they be allowed to find a church that might be a better fit for them? I think so! I can assure you that the pastor of the previous church (especially if he Lords over the congregation) thinks they are rebellious with a bad spirit.

In the situation of the church mentioned in his thread, these are people that had been faithful to the church for many years thru thick and thin. This is the cream of the crop! They are merely standing up to abuse and corruption. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their head in the sand!

[Sarah]

I disagree!

You are incorrectly assuming that all the fault lies with people who want to switch churches and the pastor plays no part.

No my friend, this isn't always the case! To say "most" people who do this is faulty assumption. How do you or anybody else know that "a mess" is coming their way? Many times that "mess" originates with the pastor. But nooooo....he doesn't gossip. That is a crock of lies too. I know plenty of so-called leaders who lie so that they can keep their positions in the organized church system.

To support this notion is to support what is wrong with the organized church system today and is part of the brainwashing many partake in.

He said 'most, not all by any means, but most'....and after being in the church for over 50 years, I have to say, I agree with him...

[ILG]

The real scandal is when folks who are not doing right, they don't like to be exposed. So they counter discussion by calling it gossip.

But oh no! They defame people who leave their church because they disagree with some rule or some way they have been shabbily treated. These pastors talk to other pastors about those people who are wanting to make a fresh start somewhere... and it is not called gossip. It is called ...what? Discussion? Reporting? Their opinion? But never it is called gossip when they blather on about somebody between themselves. I have no words for what comes out of their mouths that they try to destroy other people simply because they left their church.

This is definitely true and the way you describe it is exactly spot on!

[ILG]

I disagree!

You are incorrectly assuming that all the fault lies with people who want to switch churches and the pastor plays no part.

No my friend, this isn't always the case! To say "most" people who do this is faulty assumption. How do you or anybody else know that "a mess" is coming their way? Many times that "mess" originates with the pastor. But nooooo....he doesn't gossip. That is a crock of lies too. I know plenty of so-called leaders who lie so that they can keep their positions in the organized church system.

To support this notion is to support what is wrong with the organized church system today and is part of the brainwashing many partake in.

I agree with you AYR. One thing the Lord hates is a false balance. When the assumption is made that all the fault (or even 'most') lies in the people who leave it is a false balance. It is also incorrect to always assume the fault lies with the pastor. Each case is unique.

[RandyWayne]

Most, not all by any means but most, of the folks who jump churches for a "fresh start" are just carrying their problems from one church to another and they should be reported to the new Pastor. He ought to get a heads up of the mess coming his way. The answer to people's problems is to pray through and get their heart right, not switch churches. They don't need a new church and Pastor, most of the time they need to get their spirit right.

Has anyone who ever left a church in order to go to a more conservative one ever been guilty of carrying their problems?

Didn't think so.

[Esaias]

How many preachers leave a church and go to another and 'carry their problems with them', I wonder?

[Esaias]

...and they should be reported to the new Pastor. He ought to get a heads up of the mess coming his way.

Better yet, if a person leaves a church for any reason he/she ought to be blackballed altogether, excommunicated, shunned, delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh!

That way, nobody has to worry about any 'messes' coming their way!

:icecream

[ILG]

How many preachers leave a church and go to another and 'carry their problems with them', I wonder?

LOL! None, of course, because they are leaving the saints behind. ;)

Except of course those wonderful saints that follow the preacher to the new church!

[Rapture 1]

It's interesting to read different perspectives.

While I agree that there are folks that leave churches with a bad spirit, I believe it is a small minority. In my experience, almost all that have left a church was because of a doctrinal disagreement, perceived abuse of power by leadership, or personality conflict. In these situations, should they be allowed to find a church that might be a better fit for them? I think so! I can assure you that the pastor of the previous church (especially if he Lords over the congregation) thinks they are rebellious with a bad spirit.

In the situation of the church mentioned in his thread, these are people that had been faithful to the church for many years thru thick and thin. This is the cream of the crop! They are merely standing up to abuse and corruption. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their head in the sand!

Well said!! Couldn't have said it better!!!!

[StillStanding]

How many preachers leave a church and go to another and 'carry their problems with them', I wonder?

Yep! The sword cuts both ways!

[Rapture 1]

LOL! None, of course, because they are leaving the saints behind. ;)

Except of course those wonderful saints that follow the preacher to the new church!

LOVE IT!!!! Gave me a laugh and made my day!!!

[houston]

It's NEVER the fault of the pastor. Y'all just need to pray through and obey his every wish. If the pastor is wrong it is God's business. God will correct him. Nevermind you how or when. Touch not God's anointed. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

[Dordrecht]

Not only that, it's a left wing radical thing to leave a church.
It borders on communism!

[RandyWayne]

Not only that, it's a left wing radical thing to leave a church.
It borders on communism!

......a regular Jezebel spirit!

[Dordrecht]

......a regular Jezebel spirit!

Worse I think.
Satanic!

[Rapture 1]

It's NEVER the fault of the pastor. Y'all just need to pray through and obey his every wish. If the pastor is wrong it is God's business. God will correct him. Nevermind you how or when. Touch not God's anointed. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

This church dosn't have a "pastor" tho! What then!!! That's the whole problem. The daughter is trying to put in her "friend" and she has a few?? who are going along with her since she holds all the money, books, the Key and etc.

[ILG]

......a regular Jezebel spirit!

:redheels

I do declare, my head is tired. ;)

[RandyWayne]

:redheels

I do declare, my head is tired. ;)

And you'll never go hungry again?

[ILG]

And you'll never go hungry again?

Nevah.

[HeavenBound]

This church dosn't have a "pastor" tho! What then!!! That's the whole problem. The daughter is trying to put in her "friend" and she has a few?? who are going along with her since she holds all the money, books, the Key and etc.

We found an attorney who will take this case but we don't have the funds to pay him. Found out money that was collected for the Church to buy some property in 2006 somehow the deed is in the name of the deceased Pastor and the one who is saying he is the new Pastor. May not be the only property like this. Makes a person wonder what else is askew.

[StillStanding]

We found an attorney who will take this case but we don't have the funds to pay him. Found out money that was collected for the Church to buy some property in 2006 somehow the deed is in the name of the deceased Pastor and the one who is saying he is the new Pastor. May not be the only property like this. Makes a person wonder what else is askew.

Ask the attorney if your group could pay tithes to him until the bill is paid in full! :heeheehee

[CC1]

Ask the attorney if your group could pay tithes to him until the bill is paid in full! :heeheehee

I thought you weren't posting on this thread!:icecream:happydance