Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

We're Pentecostal in our spiritual heritage. How did we come so far as to be nearly superstitious in our fear of "feelings" and personal "experiences" in the Spirit???

I say, get out of the boat. Learn to walk on the water. Sure, you might stumble and stagger a bit at first. You might find yourself sinking up to your knees at first. The Lord might have to reach down and pull you up at first. But get out there. Only through constant practice will we grow into a spiritual maturity that turns doctrine into the foundation for personal experience.

I believe that the doctrines of the Bible are there to become foundations for our personal experiences with God. If we only focus on doctrine, we become like one who polishes the foundation every day, but refuses to build upon it. And here's something else I've noticed. Those who do not move forward and allow doctrine to become the foundation of personal experience often become stale in their faith. Their knowledge of doctrine then graduates into a rather divisive form of "heresy hunting". It isn't healthy.

Let us not allow our knowledge and adoration of doctrine become such a focus that, due to our own lack of personal experience with God, we begin to use that head knowledge to destroy those who are daring to launch out into deeper spiritual waters to experience God for themselves. Let us allow doctrine to be the foundation... the foundation of a very real and personal experience of the Spirit's abiding reality.

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila


I said all that to say this... personally experiencing God in our minds and emotions is a part of having a personal relationship with Him. It isn't enough to only know the relationship others had with Him thousands of years ago as found in Scripture, we must know Him ourselves, personally.

Amen Bro.

[n david]

We've had our disagreements, but I agree with Esaias on the ihop trance music mess. I've posted several times in various threads the connection ihop and their ilk have with catholic mysticism and new age junk. It's trash. It's connected to the occult and mysticism.

If you're offended by that, oh well.

[Aquila]

Here's something else that irks me about those who criticize forms of worship and experiencing God. They often take the side of the enemies of Pentecost.

For example, I've mentioned soaking prayer and contemplative prayer and how I've been blessed by it. I know a brother who printed out all these articles condemning soaking prayer and contemplative prayer and sent them to me. These articles talked about how these practices put emphasis on the individual experiencing the "mystical" and how this is a subjective spirituality that is alien to the Scriptures, blah, blah, blah.

I had to point out... that the authors of these articles say the very same thing about those who have experienced speaking with tongues, visions, prophetic utterances, etc.! Why would I want to heed an article condemning soaking prayer by the reprobate, John MacArthur, a man who doesn't even believe that speaking in tongues, visions, prophetic utterances, etc., are real or possible today???

Now, I'm not saying that every "manifestation" seen in charismatic churches is of God. So please don't imply that I support walking on all fours and barking like a dog as the Spirit gives "at-a-boys". This is where practicing our spiritual discernment is important. We can discern if something is of God or not based on what the Scriptures teach and based on the fruit of the experience. Such sensational rubbish seen in so many charismatic churches often produces shallow, carnal, biblically ignorant Christians whose faith is entirely built on subjective personal experience. On the flip side, those who have made an idol out of doctrine to the point of questioning all subjective spiritual experiences often produces arrogant, cold, emotionless, and critical "heresy hunters". There has to be a balance. Doctrine should be a foundation for our more subjective experiences in God. Doctrine should be the yard stick by which those experiences are measured. However, this in no way means that we are never to seek or have these experiences.

I'll never forget the first time I interpreted tongues. I had been praying for maybe weeks that God would allow me to serve the body through interpreting an utterance. I felt drawn to it. It was like an obsession. I read the verses on interpreting tongues over and over again. I watched and prayed that my eyes and ears be opened when a brother would interpret a tongue in a church service. I so wanted to experience this. I wanted it so bad, I felt like I was about to give birth to a baby or something.

Then the time came...

During an altar call an utterance in tongues broke out and was spoken through our pastor. The brother who normally interpreted the tongues wasn't there that night. And so there was this pregnant silence over the congregation. The utterance broke forth again, but with more force. I began to feel these butterflies in my stomach and I instantly knew... I was to give the interpretation.

I expected to hear the translation of the utterance fill my mind. I expected to somehow know what the syllables spoken meant. But it didn't happen that way. A tidal wave of emotion overwhelmed me as the gift of the Spirit was opened to me to interpret. It was almost like I was "feeling" what God was "feeling", I was "feeling" what God desired to say to the people. I often use the word "impression" to explain this experience. I was "feeling" the mind of God being impressed upon me. The words didn't just start flowing out my mouth. Though I could "feel" what God desired to express to the people... I had to open up my mouth and put it into words.

I was afraid. What if I was out of line? What if I was wrong? What if I looked stupid? What if others judged me? What if people would think that I think I'm a big somebody while I know I'm not? All these emotions came flooding in along side this deep impression from the Holy Spirit.

The utterance rang out again a third time, the pastor was weeping as though he too was longing to hear God deliver a Word to the church.

That's when I decided... I'd rather be wrong, out of place, or laughed at than fail God in this moment. So I opened my mouth with a loud, "Thus saith the LORD..." As I spoke, I was trembling. But it all began to flow from my lips, like a child confessing something pent up inside them for years. As the impressions flowed through me, I gave them words based on the best of my ability. Various phrases and biblical themes filled my mind, they were ablaze with life and vitality. It was almost like the Scripture provided the prophetic language from which to pull very words of the "interpretation".

As I experienced this, I was also analyzing it in my head. I discovered that an utterance of only 35 seconds can have an interpreted meaning that lasts 5 whole minutes. Or an utterance could be 35 seconds long and have only a 15 second interpretation. It is an "interpretation"... not a "translation". The utterance has a "meaning" not a "translation". Interpretation has to do with revealing the meaning of the utterance through the vehicle of the prophetic language of Scripture. And so, it goes without saying, if you wish to be used in interpretation of tongues, you would do well to know the Scriptures. The language of Scripture is almost like a decoder from which to pull words and phrases that properly reveal the "meaning" of something like the syllables , "Etee, tee-tee, ah-tayloh, La-la-la-la, ma-ma-miki, THO-HONDA". There is no "translation" of these sounds. There is only a "meaning" and that "meaning" must be "interpreted". As the last of the interpretation poured from my lips, I fell on my face and began weeping. God actually used me in this gift. I finally experienced it for myself. The people responded with prayer, and some chose to go to the altar. The pastor worshipped for a couple minutes and began altar work.

I was trembling for maybe the next 20 minutes! LOL But to my surprise, after the pastor closed the service... nobody acted like I was out of place. Nobody laughed at me, acted like I was out of place, or like I did anything wrong. It was as though nobody noticed or cared that it was me, they only wanted a Word from the Lord. Which is the way it should be!!! No one patted me on the back or congratulated me for interpreting for the first time. Sure, I felt like it was one of the most special days of my spiritual journey, but most moved forward with getting things ready and preparing to go home or to go out to eat. One brother, the usher captain, a deeply spiritual and prayerful man, looked at me as I walked by him and smiled. As he smiled, he winked and gave me a thumbs up. I just clumsily smiled and pointed upwards, giving God all the glory, as I walked by. Wouldn't you know it though, that single act of encouragement made my night. I was so afraid I messed up somehow. But for some reason that man's single gesture put me at ease and let me know that I was in the will of God.

That was the first time I was used in that manner. It felt good to step out of the boat and onto the waves.

[Aquila]

We've had our disagreements, but I agree with Esaias on the ihop trance music mess. I've posted several times in various threads the connection ihop and their ilk have with catholic mysticism and new age junk. It's trash. It's connected to the occult and mysticism.

If you're offended by that, oh well.

I can't say anything about IHOP's "trance music" because I don't know what it is or what people are doing with it.

However, I do know that I've been deeply blessed through soaking prayer. I've turned on some soft worship music, laid down on my couch, folded my hands, and just focused on breathing or on a single word. I like the name of Jesus. Sometimes I love to extend it as I say it or think it, "Jeeeesus". Sometimes, it's a phrase, "I loooove you, Lord." On other occasions it's, "Hallelujah" (more like, "Haaaaleluuuujah."). Thoughts come and go. I don't try to grab them or stop them. But after some time... my mind stops reeling. It is amazing how downright NOISY our minds can become. As my mind stops buzzing with what I call background thoughts, or "static", I begin to feel a very deep calm. Soon, you actually get to sense what it is to just... "be". And while just "being" you also begin to realize the joy with just "being" with God in that very moment. You realize, the present moment is all that matters. Not what happened yesterday, or what you think will happen tomorrow. Now. The present moment. It's almost shocking how much of our mind is either focused on what has happened in the past at work, in church, in our families, in our marriages... or what we think will happen in the future at work, in church, in our families, or in our marriages. I don't know about others, but I found that I was spending nearly 80% of my thought life either in the past, the future, or some mindless pursuit like Facebook. Very rarely was I ever just in the... now.

At that moment, the calm is serene. You "feel" God so strongly enveloping you. It's like when you just hold someone you love, or when they just hold you. No words need to be said. Just being held is all that matters, and is all that is necessary. In fact, words wouldn't add a thing to the experience. They would only cheapen it. And as you end your time of soaking prayer and go about your day, that sense of His presence lingers. Sometimes, I've fallen asleep. lol But it is one of the most restful naps I have ever felt. Sometimes it is as though you are made more aware of His presence in the now. And sometimes it is almost as though He were radio active (for lack of a better word), His presence lingering on you from your embrace like some fine fragrance.

The funny thing is, I've seen this very same thing in prayer rooms all my life. In churches, at conferences, etc. It's just nobody called it "soaking" prayer. But we're like fearful sheep. Somebody dares to coin a phrase to help draw distinction to an element of understanding and we all freak out and start lobbing heresy accusations. Good grief. So what? Someone has decided to call it "soaking prayer". What, are we to forbid just soaking in God's presence? Would it be more permissible if we called it prostrate in God's presence, "prostration prayer"? Or what if we called it, "Basking Prayer"??? LOL

Regardless of what one wishes to call it, it has been in Pentecost for generations.

And trances... my goodness. My first pastor, Rev. Huss Shearer, taught on "trances". If you've ever experienced a trance, you'd know that a trance is "the crossroads where visions are experienced". He pulled from this passage:

Acts 10:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

My goodness, that was an awesome sermon. Pastor Shearer encouraged us to unplug the telephone, go into our closets and lock the door, and seek the presence of God until we too experienced a, "trance". He explained that it is there where we can hear, firsthand, the voice of God, receive visions, and revelations.

Look, all "soaking prayer" is, is the practice of silencing the mind enough to simply enjoy and experience the "presence" of God. I've often said when I get to Heaven, I'm going to probably just lay at Jesus' feet for 10,000 years or so, just enjoying the fact that He's right there. Dear God, some of y'all would have me thrown out of Heaven for that, because that's a form of soaking prayer. LOL In the King James Bible, entering the presence of God and praying until you silence the mind to receive from Him is called, a "trance". Oh, and "contemplative prayer", all that is, is focusing on a truth, verse, phrase, name, or teaching of Scripture... while soaking in God's presence... until you understand it more fully, personally, or unlock deeper dimensions of its reality to apply to your own life. In the King James, they call this, "meditation".

Then there's the term, "mystic". It's based on the Greek word "μυστήριον" (mustérion). In the New Testament, it is the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact concerning it. It is the Christian revelation generally, or particular truths or details of the Christian revelation. Those who intermeddleth (Proverbs 18:1) with the "mustérion", are called, "mystics". The "mystics" of old were known to experience spiritual ecstasy, trances, unintelligible utterances, visions, angelic visitations, etc., and they were openly called "mystics" by the historical church. Some of these individuals were even considered "Saints" worthy of veneration by the Catholic and Orthodox churches. But that's only half the story. Most were considered eccentrics, heretics, blasphemers, and occultists when they were alive...and so they were often persecuted and rejected by their contemporary "theologians". However, they are regarded as great men and women of faith today by those who persecuted them. If you are able to read between the lines, many of the so called "mystics" experienced experiences similar to what we call the "baptism of the Holy Ghost", today. It doesn't take one long to realize that many of these look very much like they were the "Pentecostals" of the Middle Ages. In fact, if you could time travel and bring many of these "mystics" to the present, they'd understand the nature of the utterances, prophesies, interpretations, visions, etc. that are common in our Pentecostal churches more than they would the boring and lifeless liturgy of most Catholic churches today. Personally, I think that we Pentecostals are the "mystics" of the hour.

But there is a problem. Modern Christians function more on fear than experience. They'd rather curse the unknown depths of the Holy Spirit than dive in. It justifies their "fear" and "insecurity" with stepping out of their comfortable little boat and onto the water to supernaturally walk with Jesus. They hear terms like "contemplative" and act like frightened rabbits. Or they hear terms like "soaking" or "mystic" or "trance" and totally freak out. Bro... those terms, and/or their meanings, are recorded in the King James Bible. They are older than the New Age movement. In fact, Christians being called "mystics" on account of their spiritual experiences while in prayer predates the New Age use of the term by almost a thousand years. The King James Bible used the word "trance" hundreds of years before the Transcendentalism of the mid to late 1800's.

It's almost like we've failed to realize that the New Age movement has borrowed these things from us to fill the void of its truthless stupidity. Let me tell you, if you're not a Holy Spirit filled Pentecostal today, you can never know the fullness of what a "trance" really is. You might rub a crystal and daze off into a daydream... but honey... you ain't going to get a bona fide vision from Heaven.

Then there is the treacherous reality of marketing to Christian readers...

Look, if I wrote a book titled, "The Blessing of the Trance" (based on how the word "trance" is used in the King James Bible), you and I know that most Christians would freak out and start throwing garlic, wooden crosses, and silver bullets at me. But if I titled it, "The Blessing of Soaking Prayer", they might be more inclined to read what I'm trying to share. Or if I wrote a book, "The Joys of Christian Meditation" (as the term "meditation" is used in the King James Bible), some overly excited self appointed heresy hunter would claim that I'm teaching Buddhism. But if I call it, "The Joys of Contemplative Prayer", more folks might be willing to read what I have to say and give it a chance. Frankly, I think it is a shame that Christian authors have to re-word things just to try to open people up to looking into long forgotten Christian practices that are found in Scripture.

Then you have the detractors. They are mostly stuffy old Calvinists who believe that speaking in tongues is the Kundalini spirit. They will curse and condemn any spiritual practice that opens one up to personally experience God or the supernatural realities experienced by men and women throughout the Scriptures. And they make MONEY by writing books condemning Pentecostals, Charismatics, Mystics, trances, meditation, soaking prayer, contemplative prayer, faith healing, visions, etc. Let me ask you this... why are PENTECOSTALS taking their queues from these losers??? LOL

Have you noticed a disinterest in personal spiritual experiences, gifts of the Spirit, visions, etc. within Pentecost? I have. We're listening to all these "respectable" Reformed theologians... and ceasing to be Spirit Filled Pentecostals who are on the cutting edge of the move of God, that walk in the supernatural, and challenge dead and lifeless religion. We're losing the power and trading it in for their Reformed "intellectualism" and "systematic theology". Monergism is already starting to make it's way into our camp. Monergism is a real devil. It's certainly more dangerous than "soaking prayer". But you'll be respected for caving in and believing monergism. But you catch fire from all sides if you seek to prayerfully "soak" in God's presence? Something is wrong. Something is backwards.

We need to start focusing on digging into the Holy Spirit and the supernatural realities in this thing... or we'll one day be nothing more than a spiritually lifeless pseudo-Calvinistic bunch of condemnatory heresy hunters.

Remember, we're Apostolic Pentecostals. The supernatural and spiritual realities of the Bible should be our specialty.

[n david]

You do what you do, Aquila. I've read enough to show me the root of contemplative and soaking junk is not based in scripture, but in eastern and catholic mysticism. But go ahead and chant or focus on your words if that makes you feel better.

[Aquila]

You do what you do, Aquila. I've read enough to show me the root of contemplative and soaking junk is not based in scripture, but in eastern and catholic mysticism. But go ahead and chant or focus on your words if that makes you feel better.

But what you've read is anti-Pentecostal anti-Spirit Filled rubbish.

It's not about how it makes anyone feel. It's simply about silencing our buzzing minds, which are reeling from our hectic and crazy work-a-day world, and learning to simply rest and be in God's healing and empowering presence.

Here's what's funny about your position. If I described how I chose to just lay prostrate on the floor and wait on God, desiring only to feel God's healing and empowering presence... you'd not think a single negative thing about it. But that's what "soaking prayer" is. LOL

The reality of this disagreement is that you've allowed the unfamiliar coined phrase, and the opinions of theological bubble heads who don't even believe in visions or speaking in other tongues, to get in the way of understanding the essence of what is being discussed.

So, here's the question:

Would you condemn me if I were to say that I'm going to lay down on my couch after work, play some soft instrumental worship music, clear my head, and simply seek to experience God's healing presence?

Or, would you condemn me if I were to say that I'm going to lay down on my couch after work and adore the name of Jesus while considering all that it means to me?

If not, you've been hoodwinked.

How dare we learn to wait upon the LORD?! LOL

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Psalm 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God:

Those are the two verses I'll be contemplating when I enter contemplative prayer tonight ('tis the Sabbath, :happydance). Eliminate all distractions for about 40 minutes to an hour. Dim the lights. Cast all your cares from the day and any cares you might have for tomorrow upon the Lord by releasing them to him. You can imagine selecting them and letting them go as you inhale and exhale, you can speak them out softly to Him, or you can release them by simply opening or raising your hands in surrender. Thank Him for always being there, even when you're unable to immediately sense Him. Offer your personalized words of worship and adoration. What is He to you right now? Is He your king? Is He your Father? Is He your healer? Is He your defender? Is He your teacher? Identify what you need Him to be for you right now, and praise Him for being all that you could ever need. There is no script. Use your own words out loud or quietly in your heart. Enter a relaxed and prayerful state of mind. Feel free to have prepared some soft and relaxing worship music, burn a soothing aromatic candle, take a hot bath and lay down (or do all three). Whatever you have to do to relax and balance your entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Read these verses slowly. With eyes closed, picture any imagery used by the writers in each text. Reflect on the statements made. Contemplate their context. Contemplate what these verses meant to the original readers. Then contemplate their implications and how they might apply to you. Contemplate how they might help you be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ. As the realization of spiritual truth dawns upon you, hold on to it and contemplate it. Own it. Receive it. Allow the living Word of God to fill your mind. Allow it to saturate you to the core of your being, your spirit. Focus on this truth. Seek to remember and practice this truth when necessary. Welcome to contemplative prayer. ;)

Scary New Age stuff, huh? :toofunny

[n david]

Those are the two verses I'll be contemplating when I enter contemplative prayer tonight (tis the Sabbath, :happydance). Eliminate all distractions for about 40 minutes to an hour. Enter a relaxed and prayerful state of mind. Feel free to put on some relaxing music, burn a soothing, aromatic candle, take a hot bath and lay down. Whatever you have to do to relax and balance your entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Read these verses slowly. With eyes closed, picture any imagery used by the writers in each text. Reflect on the statements made. Contemplate their context. Contemplate what these verses meant to the original readers. Then contemplate their implications and how they might apply to you. Contemplate how they might help you be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ. Welcome to contemplative prayer. ;)
"Be still and know" David wrote is not as you described above.

You're reading too much Deepak Chopra.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Vz%2BEVoGEL._SS500.jpg

[Aquila]

"Be still and know" David wrote is not as you described above.

You're reading too much Deepak Chopra.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Vz%2BEVoGEL._SS500.jpg

Be still, do not worry, be anxious for nothing, do not fret, and know that God has got this and is in full control is David... that quack "Chopra" is a nobody trying to coopt the work of King David to sell his pathetic books. God Himself inspired David to write the text to convey this meaning to us.

I can honestly say, I've never read anything by Chopra. He's not even Christian.

[jediwill83]

Be still, do not worry, be anxious for nothing, do not fret, and know that God has got this and is in full control is David... that quack "Chopra" is a nobody trying to coopt the work of King David to sell his pathetic books. God Himself inspired David to write the text to convey this meaning to us.

I can honestly say, I've never read anything by Chopra. He's not even Christian.

Hey, but he could be looking our way! lol

[Aquila]

Hey, but he could be looking our way! lol

:toofunny

[n david]

I can honestly say, I've never read anything by Chopra. He's not even Christian.
Neither is what you described doing in the previous post.

[n david]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51aTlHh-%2BiL.jpg
Available on Amazon.

PRAISE THE LORD!

smh

[houston]

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

What?

[houston]

I'm certain that you blessed little "heresy hunters" could find something worth burning me at the stake over in my worship practices


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qEXKoB1WvcA

[Esaias]

Maybe I was unclear. Im not saying anything about feeling the anointing when heresy is taught. I meant to ask you if you think you feel the anointing when Oneness Pentecostals aka "Apostolics" who teach heresy get going with their worship.

Where is the Scripture that says one can "feel the anointing"?



And who pray tell are these present day Apostolics who are NOT teaching any heresy? Im waiting to hear this and have spent the last 37 years looking for them?

So there is no church in the world that isn't heretical? Tell me more, please.



Ahhh so if you teach a lesser number of heresies its ok to get into their praise and worship?

Where did I say that? Or even imply that?



It certainly seems like you are implying it.

No, you are just constantly assuming I am meaning something I never said.

You did not really answer my question. Is it wrong for one like myself to think that some "Charismatic" praise and worship is more spiritual than Oneness Pentecostal praise and worship?

It is wrong to mistake one's personal taste in music for spirituality.

I thought thats what this thread was all about? Do you get blessed by music that is written or performed by persons or groups who teach heresies? Is that ok for you but not someone else?

Here's your problem: you equate worship with music, and spirituality with personal enjoyment, and anointing with emotional sensations and feelings. The Bible does not, and neither do I. Thus when you say "IHOP is the most spiritually glorious worship this side of heaven" what you mean is "IHOP music makes me feel better than any music I've ever heard, and THEREFORE it is more spiritual and glorious than anything else." I am pointing out that you are grossly mistaken in your understanding of what music is, what it's for, what worship is, what the anointing is, what spirituality is, etc.

Present the great music and worship style you think we should be enjoying!

See? You are stuck in a rut in your understanding here. Perhaps if you could present the Bible case for worship and spirituality being determined by how it makes you feel?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What?

Wow, I said the same thing. :toofunny

[Evang.Benincasa]

You do what you do, Aquila. I've read enough to show me the root of contemplative and soaking junk is not based in scripture, but in eastern and catholic mysticism. But go ahead and chant or focus on your words if that makes you feel better.


:highfive

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b5/7c/5c/b57c5cc118564e3b19230e85fe454b74--bob-ross.jpg

[Esaias]

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

Nice try, witch. But that stuff doesn't work on me, sorry.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Nice try, witch. But that stuff doesn't work on me, sorry.

Boy, I was gone for how long?

[Esaias]

Boy, I was gone for how long?

Too long? :)

[Esaias]

The charismatic movement bought into the idea that the anointing was some kind of palpable feeling that invariably produced physical sensations and actions (gyrations, jerks, burning sensations, etc). This was picked up from earlier Pentecostals and Holiness people who - against the warnings issued by people like Charles Parham, Frank Bartleman, Evan Roberts, Watchman Nee, and others - fell into many deceptions.

This emphasis on "palpable anointing" had occurred earlier during Methodist meetings, Stone-Campbell meetings (Cane Ridge, etc), Finney's revival meetings, and Edwards' meetings, Whitefield's and even earlier among Anabaptists, Seperatists, and others. The result was ALWAYS the same: people chasing superficial religious highs, going from one meeting to the next looking for a bigger "fix", an overabundance of charlatans promising the next biggest thing, descent into animalistic behaviour, increases in what looks like demon possession as is common in Hindu, West African and other shamanic religions, scandalous increase in sexual immorality, fornication, and general sensuousness, and financial embezzlements by purported "leaders" of the "new thing". Revival preachers like Wesley, Finney, Barton Stone, Roberts, etc all had to contend against these things, which they felt were a carnal if not satanic distraction from the work God was actually doing in trying to promote holiness, faith, and sobriety. These manifestations always brought revivals into disrepute and in some cases literally destroyed the preaching, with everyone backslid in a short time.

Pentecostal pioneers ALWAYS warned about chasing sensations and sensationalism. They warned against putting a worship experience in front of a BIBLE experience.

Unfortunately, people don't generally listen. As a result, people like Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Brown, and Todd White keep on truckin'.

[Esaias]

The modern "charismatic worship music" movement (IHOP being one of the centers) is what's left of the Vineyard Movement. IHOP used to be a Vineyard church, apparently. Vineyard (especially Toronto Airport Vineyard) promoted music as the next big thing. Tons of music were produced, some of which was actually pretty good musically. But the goal was to create a powerful music-induced "experience of the presence of God".

Vineyard came from the Calvary Chapel group, which was one of the original "Jesus People" groups out of the 60s. Musically and worship-wise they and others were a Christianized alternative to the mind-blowing LSD fueled "acid rock" concerts of the 60s. But both movements had the same goal: to use music to CREATE a powerful, emotional response in the audience.

One of the founders of the Contemporary Christian Worship Music Movement said the Beatles were anointed by God but squandered it, and that God was going to restore that musical anointing to the modern worship movement in the charismatic churches. This was said back in 92 or 93 I think, maybe earlier. He made a big case that the Beatles' music literally drive the crowds into religious ecstasy, and that same anointing was coming to the charismatic worship scene. Vineyard, "the River" movement (RHB, etc), Hillsong, and IHOP are the current phases of that same movement: same people, same theology, same methodology.

And the same results.

[Esaias]

The music of the modern Vineyard-Hillsong-IHOP musicians has its origins in the Jesus People music of the 60s. That was originally a folk-rock style, emulating the music coming out of Laurel Canyon (Jefferson Airplane, Mamas and the Papas, etc etc). Both styles of music were designed to "create an experience", one with the help of LSD, and the other with the help of "the Spirit". Both movements put music and band performance at the CENTER, the "message" whether Jesus or Leary was secondary to "the experience" the audience got as a direct result of "soaking in the musical now" of the event.

Soaking? That's straight out of any Greatful Dead concert. 20 minute improvised songs, "going by the feeling", letting the group including the audience help give direction to the music with eyes closed and everybody in contemplative meditation.... yep, standard 60s acid party methodology.

And the acid party methodology was crafted by researchers such as Ken Kesey, Timothy Leary, " Professor" Owsley, and others - who, it was revealed in Congressional testimony in the 70s, all worked for the CIA.

[Esaias]

And those researchers and musicians were simply reinventing the old standard shamanic trance practices found amongst the peyote eating drummers of the Southwest, the ayahuasca drinking shamans of South America, and the yogi transcendentalists of India, the Sufi qawwali musicians of Pakistan, etc.

The same methodologies were used by the Dionysian Mystery initiates of ancient Greece and other Mystery Schools of that time, who likely borrowed them from Babylon.

[Esaias]

Now, good music is good music. And good music is often subject to personal interpretation and preference. Pavarotti can make a grown man weep with the power of his presentation, Fateh Ali Khan (Sufi Muslim religious singer) has been known to literally drive audiences into beating their heads on the stage until they bled and knocked themselves unconscious. Some Byzantine chants will almost propel you into an out of body experience. Men have been driven to war frenzy to kill and die listening to the beating of drums and droning of bagpipes. Fifes and drums steeled the nerves of millions of men standing on line watching the cannonballs scream through the air into their ranks.

Music can be powerful. It can do almost everything drugs and religion can do. It can drive people to throw themselves on grenades to save their friends, it can drive a woman to marry a man, it can drive people into fornication, it can spearhead a revival of holiness, or it can drive people insane, literally. It can even make plants grow or wither.

But NONE of that is what determines the spirituality of worship, or determines what worship is acceptable to God. Music is music. Worship is worship. Music has a place in worship, but if you think "music" as soon as you hear the term "worship" then you do not have a Biblical, apostolic, CHRISTIAN understanding of worship.

[houston]

Wow, I said the same thing. :toofunny

Every time I log in this place is more and more like the twighlight zone.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Every time I log in this place is more and more like the twighlight zone.

I mean, what was with the Aquila incantation?

He was posting back and forth with MTD, and then all of a sudden Esaias is getting an incantation from Aquila. Please, clue me in on what I missed?

[houston]

I mean, what was with the Aquila incantation?

He was posting back and forth with MTD, and then all of a sudden Esaias is getting an incantation from Aquila. Please, clue me in on what I missed?

Not to go by “feelings,”. :heeheehee but I didn’t like what I felt when I read it. :eek: I’m not above rebuking people on here... (totally worth the ban), but Esaias was well to refer to one as a “witch.” The more that people speak, the more they reveal who they are.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Not to go by “feelings,”. :heeheehee but I didn’t like what I felt when I read it. :eek: I’m not above rebuking people on here... (totally worth the ban), but Esaias was well to refer to one as a “witch.” The more that people speak, the more they reveal who they are.


Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

I can't find it in the thread, but what blow torched Aquila? Brother Esaias, did you have a EVang.Benincasa moment?

[Esaias]

What is "worship"? Is it mood music and the "feelings" that music generates in us? Is it us doing things to psyche ourselves into feeling something? To the point where many will literally pretend to "feel the power/fire/water/wind/anointing" or whatever, and jerk, twitch, jump, roll around, scream, etc as they LARP their way through yet another otherwise anemic fundraising service for the clown in the fancy monkey-suit up on stage?

Worship is translated in the Bible from several terms, the most common being proskeuno. That term is a euphemism for prostration (bowing), but has a more literal meaning describing what a dog does when it licks his master's hand. In other words, worship is an expression in the physical world whereby one expresses their acknowledgment of another's superiority and graciousness. It is both an expression of obeisance, respect, and submission, as well as thankfulness, appreciation, and love.

It is NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM a "feeling", although a Christian's worship ought to flow with great feeling. Worship can stimulate feeling, as well. Yes, you can praise until you start to feel it, and you can pray until you feel it. But the feeling is not worship, nor is the feeling a barometer of the worship as to its acceptability to God, its propriety, or its spirituality.

Right worship may not induce any feeling in you at all. The problem is you, not the worship. And, the wrong worship can induce all sorts of ecstacies, or none at all. Therefore, how you feel is an indication of NOTHING except how you feel. It has no bearing on whether or not worship is good or bad or whatnot.

Worship is also divine service. The priests engaged in certain actions as worship, or divine service, illustrating who their God is and who they served. Under the new covenant, divine service continues although under new covenant forms. That includes such things as prayer, preaching, alms giving, praise and thanksgiving, supporting the spread of the gospel with your resources, assembling with fellow saints, etc. And music (actually, SINGING) has a role in that.

To reduce worship to just the music and how it makes one feel, is not only unbiblical and reductionistic, but selfish.

[Evang.Benincasa]

What is "worship"? Is it mood music and the "feelings" that music generates in us? Is it us doing things to psyche ourselves into feeling something? To the point where many will literally pretend to "feel the power/fire/water/wind/anointing" or whatever, and jerk, twitch, jump, roll around, scream, etc as they LARP their way through yet another otherwise anemic fundraising service for the clown in the fancy monkey-suit up on stage?

Worship is translated in the Bible from several terms, the most common being proskeuno. That term is a euphemism for prostration (bowing), but has a more literal meaning describing what a dog does when it licks his master's hand. In other words, worship is an expression in the physical world whereby one expresses their acknowledgment of another's superiority and graciousness. It is both an expression of obeisance, respect, and submission, as well as thankfulness, appreciation, and love.

It is NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM a "feeling", although a Christian's worship ought to flow with great feeling. Worship can stimulate feeling, as well. Yes, you can praise until you start to feel it, and you can pray until you feel it. But the feeling is not worship, nor is the feeling a barometer of the worship as to its acceptability to God, its propriety, or its spirituality.

Right worship may not induce any feeling in you at all. The problem is you, not the worship. And, the wrong worship can induce all sorts of ecstacies, or none at all. Therefore, how you feel is an indication of NOTHING except how you feel. It has no bearing on whether or not worship is good or bad or whatnot.

Worship is also divine service. The priests engaged in certain actions as worship, or divine service, illustrating who their God is and who they served. Under the new covenant, divine service continues although under new covenant forms. That includes such things as prayer, preaching, alms giving, praise and thanksgiving, supporting the spread of the gospel with your resources, assembling with fellow saints, etc. And music (actually, SINGING) has a role in that.

To reduce worship to just the music and how it makes one feel, is not only unbiblical and reductionistic, but selfish.

Awesome!

Esaias, is this in a teaching you put together? Did you put this into an audio?

[Esaias]

I can't find it in the thread, but what blow torched Aquila? Brother Esaias, did you have a EVang.Benincasa moment?

lol

Maybe he caught my "bishops" remark in the other thread?

[Esaias]

Awesome!

Esaias, is this in a teaching you put together? Did you put this into an audio?

No, it's just what I was taught waaaaay back when I first came into this thing called the Gospel, plus a bit of studying in the Word over the years, with a dash of observation of people and their habits.

:)

[Evang.Benincasa]

No, it's just what I was taught waaaaay back when I first came into this thing called the Gospel, plus a bit of studying in the Word over the years, with a dash of observation of people and their habits.

:)

You should make all of these audio files on put them on line.

[Evang.Benincasa]

lol

Maybe he caught my "bishops" remark in the other thread?

Ah, a little exposing the shapeshifters. :nod

[houston]

I can't find it in the thread, but what blow torched Aquila? Brother Esaias, did you have a EVang.Benincasa moment?

Maybe Aquila was trying to become MTD’s friend.

[Esaias]

You should make all of these audio files on put them on line.

I did a short teaching once on worship, pointing out the word implies prostration. And how when people came before a king they not only knelt down, but laid out flat on their face with arms stretched out forward.

This did several things.

1. It showed they had no weapons in their hands, and meant no ill, they were not enemies.

2. It exposed their neck, putting them in a very vulnerable position to the king or his servants.

3. It kept one from really seeing what the king or his guards were doing thus demonstrating trust.

4. It placed you in a vulnerable position that prevented you from being able to defend yourself, again displaying trust.

Worship then is when we come to God without fighting Him or His will, with total trust in His goodness, completely vulnerable in that we are willing for HIM to hold all the cards and dispose of us as He sees fit, with no resistance on our part.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Maybe Aquila was trying to become MTD’s friend.


For some reason that sounds creepy? Like Stephen King "IT" creepy.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I did a short teaching once on worship, pointing out the word implies prostration. And how when people came before a king they not only knelt down, but laid out flat on their face with arms stretched out forward.

This did several things.

1. It showed they had no weapons in their hands, and meant no ill, they were not enemies.

2. It exposed their neck, putting them in a very vulnerable position to the king or his servants.

3. It kept one from really seeing what the king or his guards were doing thus demonstrating trust.

4. It placed you in a vulnerable position that prevented you from being able to defend yourself, again displaying trust.

Worship then is when we come to God without fighting Him or His will, with total trust in His goodness, completely vulnerable in that we are willing for HIM to hold all the cards and dispose of us as He sees fit, with no resistance on our part.

Excellent!!!!!

Put this on an audio.

[Esaias]

Excellent!!!!!

Put this on an audio.

Already did: (Warning, there's an actual shofar-blowing at the beginning... heh)

Worship - Message for Day of Trumpets (Yom Teruah…: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfKEDhDA9LQ

[houston]

For some reason that sounds creepy? Like Stephen King "IT" creepy.

Like this?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6073&stc=1&d=1515215884

[peter83]

Αμεν! I spoke with some oneness people that participate in that kind of worship and they are almost like charismatics! When they see people falling down, running, laughing, walk like dogs etc. they think "Here is the presence of God"!!!!

Of course feelings are designed by God and we react with feelings in the presence of God. But not the opposite! In those circles they fallow feelings instinct of the Holy Spirit.
Again the Spirit doe not react to our feelings and worshiping atmosphere , but our feelings can react to the presence of God and the move of the Holy Spirit can make the atmosphere He wants.

People can be deceived those last times just because every one trust their one heart !

[peter83]

Does God accept whatever worship?

Who gives the "atmosphere" in the church? The Spirit or the people?

Does our worship move the Spirit? or the Spirit move our worship?

Does our feelings influence the presence of God? or the presence of God change our feelings?


When i was in the world i loved rock n roll music! I liked the rhythm, the melody , the dancing etc. Now in Christ i dont listen anymore to this kind of music.
Is it best to give up this kind of music for God?
Or is best to just bring that music i loved to the church and change the lyrics?

[Esaias]

Does God accept whatever worship?

Who gives the "atmosphere" in the church? The Spirit or the people?

Does our worship move the Spirit? or the Spirit move our worship?

Does our feelings influence the presence of God? or the presence of God change our feelings?


When i was in the world i loved rock n roll music! I liked the rhythm, the melody , the dancing etc. Now in Christ i dont listen anymore to this kind of music.
Is it best to give up this kind of music for God?
Or is best to just bring that music i loved to the church and change the lyrics?

The problem that prevails nowadays is people want worship to cater to them. If they go to a meeting, and the music isn't their favorite, they think "There is no Holy Spirit in this meeting."

How is this not idolatry and self-worship?

[Esaias]

Also, there is very little concern for CHURCH music. Rather, everybody wants their own personal favorite music style and song list to be the church's music. This proceeds from a selfish approach and will never succeed in the end. Even trying to find "compromise" between different factions doesn't work in the end.

We need to get back to a proper Biblical understanding of the role of music in the church. That will help determine what music is used, and (just as importantly) how it is received by the congregation.

[Esaias]

Biblical Worship

That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. (Romans 15:16)

Worship in two aspects
Our daily life:
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:19-27)

Also, corporate worship – when we come together:
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Leviticus 23:2)
Feasts = 'moed' or appointment, an appointed time or meeting.
mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):

Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:3)
Holy convocation = mik-raw'
something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:

So God has 'feasts' or 'appointments' which are holy or sacred 'meetings' for His people. The first and primary appointed time is the weekly Sabbath. This is a time for God's people to gather together for a sacred or holy purpose: meeting with God.

Church = ekklesia
(Thayer's Definition)
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

The 'church' then is the gathered together assembly of believers, both in the sense of the gathering, and the ones gathered together. Christians are called together into a relationship with Christ and one another. What do God's people do when they gather together to worship God?

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. (Hebrews 8:1-5)

By looking at the old covenant system of worship, we can see a type or discern the pattern of heavenly, Spiritual worship.
There was a tabernacle – a tent with an outer courtyard, a wash basin, a brass altar for burning sacrifices, a tent building with the first room containing a golden menorah, table of shewbread, and a golden altar for offering incense. A curtain, behind which is the holy of holies, containing the ark of the covenant. The ark was a gold covered box in which was the Ten Commandments written on the two stone tables, covered with a lid that was called 'the mercy seat', with two cherubim carved on it, and served as a sort of throne. There was a daily (“continual”) sacrifice, once in the evening, and once in the morning. This pointed to Christ being a continual sacrifice that made the whole system of worship sanctified, or acceptable to God.There was a lighting of the candlestick, and offering of incense before the inner curtain at the golden altar of incense. People also brought to the priests their personal offerings of various types – sin and tresspass offerings, voluntary free will peace offerings, etc. Only priests could minister in the tabernacle properly.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:15)
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:10)
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:16)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1Peter 2:5)

The old covenant system of worship is a pattern, or shadow, or type, or picture of the new covenant worship. The church is called together to offer up spiritual sacrifices under the new covenant, which include not only our godly living, sharing with one another, and serving one another, but also the sacrifices or offerings of praise and prayer. Here are some elements of Biblical prayer:

Standing in prayer:
At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day. (Deuteronomy 10:8)
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (Psalm 24:3)
Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God, (Psalm 135:2)
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11:25)
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (Luke 18:13)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:9)

Bowing (prostration):
And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son. (Genesis 24:48)
Bowed down my head - qâdad
kaw-dad'
A primitive root; to shrivel up, that is, contract or bend the body (or neck) in deference: - bow (down) (the) head, stoop.
And worshipped - shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. (Exodus 34:6-8)

Bowed his head toward the earth and worshipped – same words as before (note, he made haste – hurried, “flowed”, into bowing and worshipping)

And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever. (2Chronicles 7:3)
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. (Matthew 2:11)
And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. (Luke 17:16)
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:14)
worship - proskuneō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.

[Esaias]

Kneeling:
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, (Luke 22:41)
And when we had accomplished those days, we departed and went our way; and they all brought us on our way, with wives and children, till we were out of the city: and we kneeled down on the shore, and prayed. (Acts 21:5)
For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven, (2Chronicles 6:13)
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime. (Daniel 6:10)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)
(note: kneeling, and confessing)
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. (1Kings 8:54)

Hands raised:
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. (1Kings 8:54)
Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. (Psalm 141:2)
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (1Timothy 2:8)


Headcovering:
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. (1Corinthians 11:4-11)

(Power in verse 10 is 'exousia' and means 'authority', the woman ought to have a sign of authority, which is the headcovering, showing to the angels that she is in agreement with Biblical authority. The man's uncovered head would also demonstrate that he is in agreement with Biblical authority as well.)

(The 'man' and 'woman' spoken of in verses 8 and 9 are a reference to Adam and Eve as the Original or archetypical 'man and woman'.)

Praying all together:
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (Acts 4:24)


Lifting up the voice:
They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea. (Isaiah 24:14)
I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah. (Psalm 3:4)
When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday. (Psalm 42:4)
O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. (Psalm 47:1)
(Notice, it says to 'clap your hands' in conjunction with shouting to God.)
Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice. (Psalm 55:17)
(Notice, prayer three times a day.)
O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard: (Psalm 66:8)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (Acts 4:24)
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (Hebrews 5:7)
(This is commonly known as 'travailing prayer'.) See also:
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26)
(From Gill's Commentary: and this intercession he makes, "with groanings which, cannot be uttered"; not that the Spirit of God groans, but he stirs up groans in the saints; which suppose a burden on them, and their sense of it: and these are said to be "unutterable"; saints, under his influence, praying silently, without a voice, as Moses and Hannah did, 1Sa_1:13, and yet most ardently and fervently; or as not being able to express fully what they conceive in their minds, how great their burdens are, and their sense of their wants.)

And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (Luke 17:15)
And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; (Luke 19:37)
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. (Revelation 5:11-12)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-10)

Fervent prayer and worship:
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; (Romans 12:11)
(fervent: zeō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to boil with heat, be hot
1a) used of water
1b) metaphorically
1b1) used of boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad etc.
1b2) fervent in spirit, said of zeal for what is good)

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)
(effectual fervent: The Greek word (ἐνεργουμένη energoumenē) would be better rendered by the word energetic, which indeed is derived from it. The word properly refers to that which has power; which in its own nature is fitted to produce an effect. It is not so much that it actually does produce an effect, as that it is fitted to do it. This is the kind of prayer referred to here. It is not listless, indifferent, cold, lifeless, as if there were no vitality in it, or power, but that which is adapted to be efficient - earnest, sincere, hearty, persevering. - Barnes' Notes)
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. (Psalm 5:11)
be joyful = ‛âlats
aw-lats'
A primitive root; to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be joyful, rejoice, triumph.
Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart. (Psalm 32:11)
rejoice = gı̂yl gûl
gheel, gool
A primitive root; properly to spin around (under the influence of any violent emotion), that is, usually rejoice, or (as cringing) fear: - be glad, joy, be joyful, rejoice.
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1Peter 1:8)
ye rejoice = agalliaō
ag-al-lee-ah'-o
properly to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly).

[Esaias]

Praying and singing in other tongues:
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4)
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (1Corinthians 14:2)
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co 14:4)
(notice: speaking in tongues is speaking to God (prayer) “in the Spirit”, and edifies oneself)

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. (1Corinthians 14:14-17)
(praying in tongues is equivalent to “my spirit prays”. Prayer should be both with the spirit, as well as with the understanding. Do both! Notice, there is also singing in tongues. And speaking in tongues is also 'blessing with the spirit” whereby one “gives thanks well”. BUT because praying or speaking in tongues is not understood by others, it is not meant to be heard by and paid attention to by others.)

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude vs20-21)

Praying the Psalms:
The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended. (Psalm 72:20)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Psalm 22:1)
(The Psalms are prayers, and Jesus was repeating the words of Psalm 22:1)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (Acts 4:24-26)
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed... (Psalm 2:1-2)
(The church prayed the words of Psalm 2:1-2 in corporate prayer)

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm 100:2)

Kiss of Peace:
Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. (Romans 16:16)
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. (Philippians 4:21)
Greet one another with an holy kiss. (2Corinthians 13:12)
salute - aspazomai
as-pad'-zom-ahee
to enfold in the arms, that is, (by implication) to salute, (figuratively) to welcome: - embrace, greet, salute, take leave.)

Reading and teaching the Word:
And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Nehemiah 8:5-8)
(This is why we stand for the reading of the Word.)
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luke 4:16)
And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (Acts 13:15)
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1Timothy 4:13)

The Lord's Supper:
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:26-29)
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (1Corinthians 10:16-17)

Footwashing:
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. (John 13:3-5)
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. (John 13:14-15)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Already did: (Warning, there's an actual shofar-blowing at the beginning... heh)

Worship - Message for Day of Trumpets (Yom Teruah…: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfKEDhDA9LQ

Awesome! Thank you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Like this?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6073&stc=1&d=1515215884

Yikes!!!!

Next time a certain someone is telling the forum they are getting soaked in prayer and the word. I’ll have that image come to mind. Now, I’m going to soak my mind in industrial paint stripper. :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Αμεν! I spoke with some oneness people that participate in that kind of worship and they are almost like charismatics! When they see people falling down, running, laughing, walk like dogs etc. they think "Here is the presence of God"!!!!

Of course feelings are designed by God and we react with feelings in the presence of God. But not the opposite! In those circles they fallow feelings instinct of the Holy Spirit.
Again the Spirit doe not react to our feelings and worshiping atmosphere , but our feelings can react to the presence of God and the move of the Holy Spirit can make the atmosphere He wants.

People can be deceived those last times just because every one trust their one heart !

Is this church in Athens? Is that the church that has a husband and wife as the pastors? The wife being the preacher?

[peter83]

Is this church in Athens? Is that the church that has a husband and wife as the pastors? The wife being the preacher?

I say for members of many churches
No i dont know any wife pastor.
Women preachers are everywhere general and mostly in UPC.

[mfblume]

We don't worship to feel, we worship because God deserves it.

One time a man in our church in the 90's said it's he hadn't been to church if he doesn't feel anything. I told him I couldn't remember the last time I thought that way. We have church gatherings because God requires it of us. He's God and we serve Him. Period. If we feel something, and we will, bonus! But that's not the point.

[Amanah]

Apostolic Worship. I would love to see us cut loose in unrestrained worship like David before the ark, or as mentioned in Psalms 150, or like the day of Pentecost when the disciples were accused of being drunk, our services are to sedate.

[peter83]

Apostolic Worship. I would love to see us cut loose in unrestrained worship like David before the ark, or as mentioned in Psalms 150, or like the day of Pentecost when the disciples were accused of being drunk, our services are to sedate.

They seemed drunk because they were glorifying God aloud. Not because dancing or any other drunkenness action.
Peace to you.

[mfblume]

Apostolic Worship. I would love to see us cut loose in unrestrained worship like David before the ark, or as mentioned in Psalms 150, or like the day of Pentecost when the disciples were accused of being drunk, our services are to sedate.

Actually they were accused of being drunk for speaking in other tongues. Nothing else! Check it out.

[Michael The Disciple]

I asked Esaias

And who pray tell are these present day Apostolics who are NOT teaching any heresy? Im waiting to hear this and have spent the last 37 years looking for them?

He replied:

So there is no church in the world that isn't heretical? Tell me more, please.

You did not answer my question. I asked you on the basis of what you have written about heresy on this forum, point me to an Apostolic Church that does not contain heresy.

Instead of answering the question you seem to be mocking. Now if you would please give me a list or even one Apostolic Church that to you at least (on the basis of what you have written of AFF) is pure with no heresy.

[peter83]

Actually they were accused of being drunk for speaking in other tongues. Nothing else! Check it out.

:thumbsup

[Tithesmeister]

11] And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
[12] And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
[13] And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

Sometimes, I fear that we’ going for the earthquake, the wind and the �� fire, and we are missing the still small voice.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

I Like It.

Brother Villa

[Evang.Benincasa]

You did not answer my question. I asked you on the basis of what you have written about heresy on this forum, point me to an Apostolic Church that does not contain heresy.

Instead of answering the question you seem to be mocking. Now if you would please give me a list or even one Apostolic Church that to you at least (on the basis of what you have written of AFF) is pure with no heresy.

For this question to be answered, you would therefore have to come under the same criteria.

Honestly, how much heresy is in your church?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I say for members of many churches
No i dont know any wife pastor.
Women preachers are everywhere general and mostly in UPC.

Ok, I was told about a church last year which comes close to the one you described. Just asking.

[Michael The Disciple]

For this question to be answered, you would therefore have to come under the same criteria.

Honestly, how much heresy is in your church?

None.:highfive

[Evang.Benincasa]

None.:highfive

Thank you. I totally appreciate your honesty.

So, when you say heresy, only you can determine heresy. In your mind an Apostolic Church is heretical. Therefore any minister in an Apostolic church is heretical. Because you asked the question which would indicate that one cannot find an Apostolic church which does not contain some measure of heresy.

Now, that we got that all out of the way how do you suggest we all come to your salvation? That isn't me being my sarcastic self, I'm asking a very important question. Since we do have people on this forum that you know disagree with you on different levels. How can we be saved and come to the exact same knowledge as you? Like the Two Witness Prophets? The Man Child Ministry? How many people need to know and understand these two teachings? Again, I appreciate your honest answer you gave, would just like to know your beliefs on the rest.

[Michael The Disciple]

Thank you. I totally appreciate your honesty.

So, when you say heresy, only you can determine heresy. In your mind an Apostolic Church is heretical. Therefore any minister in an Apostolic church is heretical. Because you asked the question which would indicate that one cannot find an Apostolic church which does not contain some measure of heresy.

Now, that we got that all out of the way how do you suggest we all come to your salvation? That isn't me being my sarcastic self, I'm asking a very important question. Since we do have people on this forum that you know disagree with you on different levels. How can we be saved and come to the exact same knowledge as you? Like the Two Witness Prophets? The Man Child Ministry? How many people need to know and understand these two teachings? Again, I appreciate your honest answer you gave, would just like to know your beliefs on the rest.

Dom,

Note the boldened. I never at all said that. However if you took the things I said to mean that be assured I dont think an Apostolic Church or Apostolic minister is necessarily heretical.

I know a few that are not. Personally I think most ARE in foundation doctrine. Esaias was seemingly making a point that if a group teaches heretical doctrine their worship cannot be of God.

I responded if that be the case how many Apostolic Churches could he really worship with since according to his criteria they may be hard to find. I suspect that he may sing songs written by people HE considers as heretics.

While I believe the second coming doctrine IS foundational I dont believe the knowledge of every detail of it is.

[Michael The Disciple]

Now, that we got that all out of the way how do you suggest we all come to your salvation? That isn't me being my sarcastic self, I'm asking a very important question. Since we do have people on this forum that you know disagree with you on different levels. How can we be saved and come to the exact same knowledge as you?

Note the emboldened?

How can we be saved? Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 2.

To come to the same understanding of the FOUNDATION TRUTH that I have I suggest you take yourself back in time approximately 17 years. I think that will do it!

[mfblume]

Note the boldened.

(OCD moment.)

It's supposed to be EMBOLDENED, not boldened.

Carry on...

:thumbsup

lol

[Michael The Disciple]

(OCD moment.)

It's supposed to be EMBOLDENED, not boldened.

Carry on...

:thumbsup

lol

Oops!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Note the emboldened?

How can we be saved? Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 2.

To come to the same understanding of the FOUNDATION TRUTH that I have I suggest you take yourself back in time approximately 17 years. I think that will do it!

What is that same understanding?

[n david]

None.:highfive
Thou shalt not lie.

[Michael The Disciple]

What is that same understanding?

The same you and I discussed on Paltalk in about 2001. The one you said we agreed on. Mine is still the same.

[jediwill83]

11] And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
[12] And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
[13] And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

Sometimes, I fear that we’ going for the earthquake, the wind and the �� fire, and we are missing the still small voice.


Oooh preach

[Amanah]

11] And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
[12] And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
[13] And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

Sometimes, I fear that we’ going for the earthquake, the wind and the �� fire, and we are missing the still small voice.

Or pride prevents us from being expressive

[Evang.Benincasa]

The same you and I discussed on Paltalk in about 2001. The one you said we agreed on. Mine is still the same.

But even with that on closer scrutiny we were different on those subjects 17 yeas ago. Wow we are getting older, I also want to say again I am sorry for any ill treatment I had given you since that time in any argument. Even if we don't agree "I' don't have to be disagreeable.

[Michael The Disciple]

But even with that on closer scrutiny we were different on those subjects 17 yeas ago. Wow we are getting older, I also want to say again I am sorry for any ill treatment I had given you since that time in any argument. Even if we don't agree "I' don't have to be disagreeable.

Good enuff:highfive

[jediwill83]

Or pride prevents us from being expressive


With the Pharisee and the Publican, the expressive one had the pride issue....just sayin....

[Amanah]

With the Pharisee and the Publican, the expressive one had the pride issue....just sayin....

I have never heard worship leaders asking people to sit down and be pious, just saying.

[Esaias]

Esaias was seemingly making a point that if a group teaches heretical doctrine their worship cannot be of God.

I responded if that be the case how many Apostolic Churches could he really worship with since according to his criteria they may be hard to find. I suspect that he may sing songs written by people HE considers as heretics.



You misunderstand what I am saying. You continue to equate worship with music or songs. My entire point has been:

1. Worship is not limited to music, or how we "feel" in response to music.

2. Worship is judged, by Jesus Christ, according to DOCTRINE, and not according to how we "feel".

I never said a heretic couldn't write a good song. Nor did I say a heretic couldn't write a good song that could be used by God's church as part of its worship. All things are ours, according to the apostle. Therefore, the church can make use of whatever is available, assuming the thing made use of is not in itself heretical, false, or evil, and assuming it would not be inexpedient or a stumbling block to others.

What I take issue with is the idea that heretics have a corner on the worship market. One can only think that if they have a grossly unbiblical view of what actual worship is.

So, just to be clear, to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding, here it is again:

The Bible does not describe worship as a euphoria brought about by The Most Awesomest Music Ever™. The apostles never taught that we must strive to create the Most Awesomest Worship Experiences through the use of Super Awesome Music. The Bible does not define worship in terms of how we feel, it does not grade or measure worship by musical terms or qualities, nor by merely emotional states and feelings, nor does it suggest that worship = music to begin with.

[Esaias]

With the Pharisee and the Publican, the expressive one had the pride issue....just sayin....

This doesn't make any sense. The Pharisee prayed a standard Jewish prayer ("I thank You that You have not made me a gentile, idolater, a woman, or a publican" etc), whereas the publican prayed for mercy and forgiveness. The publican was justified (forgiven) whereas the Pharisee was not. Why? Because the Pharisees were blind hypocrites who justified themselves. The rejection of the Pharisee and the acceptance of the publican had nothing whatsoever to do with either's "expressiveness in worship" or lack thereof.

[Aquila]

Neither is what you described doing in the previous post.

So, relaxing, putting on some music (or even sitting or laying silently), and enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit is condemned in Scripture?

Contemplating the depths of a spiritual truth or Bible verse is condemned in Scripture?

I think you're just being a paranoid heresy hunter. lol

[Aquila]

What?

Evidently, you didn't read the entire post. Here it is. Maybe it will answer your incredulous "What?"

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

[Aquila]

Nice try, witch. But that stuff doesn't work on me, sorry.

Name calling. Really?

[Aquila]

Pentecostal pioneers ALWAYS warned about chasing sensations and sensationalism. They warned against putting a worship experience in front of a BIBLE experience.

I agree with the emboldened. I don't support putting any worship experience in front of or before the Bible, or the experiences described therein.

But what we are seeing is a bunch of spiritually dead dunderheads decrying the integration of any kind of experience beyond what THEY are familiar with, and THEY assume it isn't in Scripture (because they can't possibly be wrong), and condemn anyone who sees something in the Scriptures that they don't see.

[Aquila]

The modern "charismatic worship music" movement (IHOP being one of the centers) is what's left of the Vineyard Movement. IHOP used to be a Vineyard church, apparently. Vineyard (especially Toronto Airport Vineyard) promoted music as the next big thing. Tons of music were produced, some of which was actually pretty good musically. But the goal was to create a powerful music-induced "experience of the presence of God".

Vineyard came from the Calvary Chapel group, which was one of the original "Jesus People" groups out of the 60s. Musically and worship-wise they and others were a Christianized alternative to the mind-blowing LSD fueled "acid rock" concerts of the 60s. But both movements had the same goal: to use music to CREATE a powerful, emotional response in the audience.

One of the founders of the Contemporary Christian Worship Music Movement said the Beatles were anointed by God but squandered it, and that God was going to restore that musical anointing to the modern worship movement in the charismatic churches. This was said back in 92 or 93 I think, maybe earlier. He made a big case that the Beatles' music literally drive the crowds into religious ecstasy, and that same anointing was coming to the charismatic worship scene. Vineyard, "the River" movement (RHB, etc), Hillsong, and IHOP are the current phases of that same movement: same people, same theology, same methodology.

And the same results.

Maybe we do well not to use hymns (too many written by Calvinsits and Trinitarians). Maybe we shouldn't use Gospel (too many influenced by worldly jazz and blues). Maybe we shouldn't use any contemporary music (too much influenced by Charismatics).

Give me a break. This is pure Phariseeism.

[houston]

Evidently, you didn't read the entire post. Here it is. Maybe it will answer your incredulous "What?"


Outta here with that mess

[Aquila]

The music of the modern Vineyard-Hillsong-IHOP musicians has its origins in the Jesus People music of the 60s. That was originally a folk-rock style, emulating the music coming out of Laurel Canyon (Jefferson Airplane, Mamas and the Papas, etc etc). Both styles of music were designed to "create an experience", one with the help of LSD, and the other with the help of "the Spirit". Both movements put music and band performance at the CENTER, the "message" whether Jesus or Leary was secondary to "the experience" the audience got as a direct result of "soaking in the musical now" of the event.

Soaking? That's straight out of any Greatful Dead concert. 20 minute improvised songs, "going by the feeling", letting the group including the audience help give direction to the music with eyes closed and everybody in contemplative meditation.... yep, standard 60s acid party methodology.

And the acid party methodology was crafted by researchers such as Ken Kesey, Timothy Leary, " Professor" Owsley, and others - who, it was revealed in Congressional testimony in the 70s, all worked for the CIA.

Statements like those made here only demonstrate that you don't know what soaking prayer is. LOL

I'm sure you read a good book that helped some idiot make a few bucks. But that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

Seek God. Learn to allow your time of prayer to be a time of experiencing Him and listening to Him. Allow Him to teach you and show you the way. You'll realize that you're being far too hard on people regarding these issues.

[Aquila]

And those researchers and musicians were simply reinventing the old standard shamanic trance practices found amongst the peyote eating drummers of the Southwest, the ayahuasca drinking shamans of South America, and the yogi transcendentalists of India, the Sufi qawwali musicians of Pakistan, etc.

The same methodologies were used by the Dionysian Mystery initiates of ancient Greece and other Mystery Schools of that time, who likely borrowed them from Babylon.

Straw man much?

[Aquila]

Now, good music is good music. And good music is often subject to personal interpretation and preference. Pavarotti can make a grown man weep with the power of his presentation, Fateh Ali Khan (Sufi Muslim religious singer) has been known to literally drive audiences into beating their heads on the stage until they bled and knocked themselves unconscious. Some Byzantine chants will almost propel you into an out of body experience. Men have been driven to war frenzy to kill and die listening to the beating of drums and droning of bagpipes. Fifes and drums steeled the nerves of millions of men standing on line watching the cannonballs scream through the air into their ranks.

Music can be powerful. It can do almost everything drugs and religion can do. It can drive people to throw themselves on grenades to save their friends, it can drive a woman to marry a man, it can drive people into fornication, it can spearhead a revival of holiness, or it can drive people insane, literally. It can even make plants grow or wither.

But NONE of that is what determines the spirituality of worship, or determines what worship is acceptable to God. Music is music. Worship is worship. Music has a place in worship, but if you think "music" as soon as you hear the term "worship" then you do not have a Biblical, apostolic, CHRISTIAN understanding of worship.

You had me nodding in agreement until your last paragraph.

My previous pastor often said many of the same things. However, his conclusion was different. His conclusion was that music predates mankind. It was in heaven long before we were made on earth. And so, man was made to respond to music. That being said, music chosen for worship should be chosen based on its ability to open the soul and touch the spirit. This means that styles of worship music, and practice involving that music (singing, dancing, relaxing, crying, praising, etc.) will be as varied as we are.

I was taught that the key element in worship is... the glorification of God. If you listen to fast paced praise and worship music and dance around the house or the church, let it be to God's glory. If you lay face first weeping and silently whispering prayers, to mellow tones of worship music, let it be to the glory of God. If you listen to "Christian Metal" (which I don't like personally), and "rock-out" like a crazy man in your garage, let it be to the glory of God. If you listen to country Gospel and stomp your feet and clap your hands, let it be to the glory of God. If you prefer silent times of prayer and worship, let it be to the glory of God. If you like olds hymns and just sit and listen with eyes closed as you take in the words, let it be to the glory of God. For whatever doesn't move you into a place beyond the focus on self, it will definitely not move God.

So, rejoice in how you were made. Rejoice in various forms of music and how they affect you. Only allow music to affect you for the good and not for the bad. Some churches have noted the powerful effect music can have on the emotions of humanity and have chosen to prohibit it altogether, believing that a purely cerebral/intellectual approach to praise and worship be contained purely within the confines of the reading of Scripture. This is too extreme a position. Other churches have prohibited anything but a given style of music. This too is too extreme of a position. There must be a balance born of understanding and a sincere desire to glorify God.

[Aquila]

What is "worship"? Is it mood music and the "feelings" that music generates in us? Is it us doing things to psyche ourselves into feeling something? To the point where many will literally pretend to "feel the power/fire/water/wind/anointing" or whatever, and jerk, twitch, jump, roll around, scream, etc as they LARP their way through yet another otherwise anemic fundraising service for the clown in the fancy monkey-suit up on stage?

Worship is translated in the Bible from several terms, the most common being proskeuno. That term is a euphemism for prostration (bowing), but has a more literal meaning describing what a dog does when it licks his master's hand. In other words, worship is an expression in the physical world whereby one expresses their acknowledgment of another's superiority and graciousness. It is both an expression of obeisance, respect, and submission, as well as thankfulness, appreciation, and love.

It is NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM a "feeling", although a Christian's worship ought to flow with great feeling. Worship can stimulate feeling, as well. Yes, you can praise until you start to feel it, and you can pray until you feel it. But the feeling is not worship, nor is the feeling a barometer of the worship as to its acceptability to God, its propriety, or its spirituality.

Right worship may not induce any feeling in you at all. The problem is you, not the worship. And, the wrong worship can induce all sorts of ecstacies, or none at all. Therefore, how you feel is an indication of NOTHING except how you feel. It has no bearing on whether or not worship is good or bad or whatnot.

Worship is also divine service. The priests engaged in certain actions as worship, or divine service, illustrating who their God is and who they served. Under the new covenant, divine service continues although under new covenant forms. That includes such things as prayer, preaching, alms giving, praise and thanksgiving, supporting the spread of the gospel with your resources, assembling with fellow saints, etc. And music (actually, SINGING) has a role in that.

To reduce worship to just the music and how it makes one feel, is not only unbiblical and reductionistic, but selfish.

I agree. Worship is more than any feeling we derive from it. However, as I believe you indicated, experiencing deep emotion and feeling during worship (in its many forms) isn't entirely wrong either. Again, there must be a balance.

Extremes are the hallmark of carnality.

[Aquila]

Maybe Aquila was trying to become MTD’s friend.

I just felt Michael was taking too much heat over style of music he liked. So, I decided to step in and take some heat off of him. And it's actually entertaining. I've been called bad names, condemned, compared to New Agers, etc. Oh... but little do they know... they're just mice under glass. lol ;)

[Aquila]

I did a short teaching once on worship, pointing out the word implies prostration. And how when people came before a king they not only knelt down, but laid out flat on their face with arms stretched out forward.

This did several things.

1. It showed they had no weapons in their hands, and meant no ill, they were not enemies.

2. It exposed their neck, putting them in a very vulnerable position to the king or his servants.

3. It kept one from really seeing what the king or his guards were doing thus demonstrating trust.

4. It placed you in a vulnerable position that prevented you from being able to defend yourself, again displaying trust.

Worship then is when we come to God without fighting Him or His will, with total trust in His goodness, completely vulnerable in that we are willing for HIM to hold all the cards and dispose of us as He sees fit, with no resistance on our part.

That's really good stuff. :thumbsup

[Aquila]

Like this?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6073&stc=1&d=1515215884

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

[Aquila]

Father, help us see past our differences and bind us together in the bonds of love. Help us to see and understand what each and every one of us has found in you that the whole might be benefited. In Jesus name. Amen.

[n david]

paranoid heresy hunter.

Name calling. Really?

That made me laugh. :toofunny

[n david]

Father, help us see past our differences and bind us together in the bonds of love. Help us to see and understand what each and every one of us has found in you that the whole might be benefited. In Jesus name. Amen.
Is there an added benefit to typing a prayer and posting it online? Besides others seeing it.

Do you often just start praying during a normal conversation with someone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzEL4h1vq7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEzim2mPHmg

[n david]

So, relaxing, putting on some music (or even sitting or laying silently), and enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit is condemned in Scripture?

Contemplating the depths of a spiritual truth or Bible verse is condemned in Scripture?

I think you're just being a paranoid heresy hunter. lol
No, but that isn't what contemplative or centering or soaking really is. If you believe it's just warm feelz, then you don't really know what contemplative, centering or soaking is. The origins are from the occult and catholic mysticism.

Do you also hold seances? Do you sit in a circle with a pentagram and burn sage?

[Aquila]

That made me laugh. :toofunny

I noticed that you only quoted a small part of my entire statement. For the sake of the reader, I actually said:

So, relaxing, putting on some music (or even sitting or laying silently), and enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit is condemned in Scripture?

Contemplating the depths of a spiritual truth or Bible verse is condemned in Scripture?

I think you're just being a paranoid heresy hunter. lol
I said that you were "being a paranoid heresy hunter" because you're overreacting towards everyone who doesn't do things your way or worship exactly as you do.

Ah, but you actually called me a "witch":

Nice try, witch. But that stuff doesn't work on me, sorry.

Being told that you're being a rather paranoid "heresy hunter" is nowhere close to being called a "witch".

[Aquila]

Is there an added benefit to typing a prayer and posting it online? Besides others seeing it.

Do you often just start praying during a normal conversation with someone?

If a prayer bothers you, perhaps you need to ask yourself deeper questions.

I pray when I feel the Spirit bid me to pray. And yes, I have interrupted conversations with prayer when I felt the Spirit bid me. Lately, it's been more like, "Father, help me understand my children and not want to ring their little necks!" lol

[Aquila]

No, but that isn't what contemplative or centering or soaking really is. If you believe it's just warm feelz, then you don't really know what contemplative, centering or soaking is. The origins are from the occult and catholic mysticism.

You're only judging it according to what others have said it is. I'm willing to wager that if you actually researched it more deeply, you'd realize that in many ways, even you have done it for years. You just didn't put a label on it.

Do you also hold seances? Do you sit in a circle with a pentagram and burn sage?

Nope.

Why would you even ask that???

[n david]

Ah, but you actually called me a "witch":

Nice try, witch. But that stuff doesn't work on me, sorry.

Being told that you're being a rather paranoid "heresy hunter" is nowhere close to being called a "witch".
I'm n david - that was Esaias. Not the same guy. :nah

[n david]

You're only judging it according to what others have said it is. I'm willing to wager that if you actually researched it more deeply, you'd realize that in many ways, even you have done it for years. You just didn't put a label on it.
Actually, I've looked into it and where it began. Contemplative prayer, centering, balancing, soaking, whatever new label you wish you call it, all began and has roots in the occult and mysticism.


Nope.

Why would you even ask that???
Because seances, burning sage, contemplative prayer, centering, balancing all come from occultism and mysticism.

[n david]

If a prayer bothers you, perhaps you need to ask yourself deeper questions.

I pray when I feel the Spirit bid me to pray. And yes, I have interrupted conversations with prayer when I felt the Spirit bid me. Lately, it's been more like, "Father, help me understand my children and not want to ring their little necks!" lol
Doesn't bother me. I just think it's odd some people feel the need to post their prayer publicly to show others.

To each his own. :thumbsup

[Aquila]

Actually, I've looked into it and where it began. Contemplative prayer, centering, balancing, soaking, whatever new label you wish you call it, all began and has roots in the occult and mysticism.

Because seances, burning sage, contemplative prayer, centering, balancing all come from occultism and mysticism.

So, you don't believe in being silent and simply enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to permeate your being (body, soul, spirit)?

[Michael The Disciple]

So, you don't believe in being silent and simply enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to permeate your being (body, soul, spirit)?

This used to be called "waiting on the Lord" in old time Pentecost.

[Aquila]

This used to be called "waiting on the Lord" in old time Pentecost.

I remember it well. We'd gather for prayer and find a quiet spot in the sanctuary where we'd lay, sit, or prostrate ourselves and just soak in God's presence. The Spirit would move and we'd quietly pray, speak in tongues, weep, as the Spirit spoke to us. Whether one calls it "waiting on the Lord" or "soaking prayer", it's all the same thing.

[Aquila]

Also, while the doubters, mockers, and nay-sayers on this thread don't believe in "soaking" in anything because their God is merely conceptualized, the ancient Greek Christians believed in the "dunamis" or "power" (later defined as "energies") of God. It emanates from His being (and so is a part of Himself) and indeed soaks individuals, stone tablets, bones, places, and even the clothes individuals might wear, with divine power. This power was the residual power that was resident in Elisha's bones that healed a dead man upon his being thrown upon them, the same power that was activated by faith and departed from Christ when the woman with an issue of blood touched the hem of his garment, the same residual power that fell on those in Peter's shadow leaving a wake of healing and deliverance, the same power that was unleashed by the words of Peter upon the lame man at the gate of the temple, and the same residual power that was present in the very aprons worn by Paul.

So many in Pentecost are becoming so "intellectualized"... I predict we'll see an increasing absence of healings, tongues, interpretations, visions, deliverances, and miracles as time passes. They have a form of godliness... but deny the "power" thereof.

To soak in the very presence of God is to be filled with His Spirit, to actually partake in the divine nature, and to be imbued with His power. If truly put into practice, one will be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ Himself, not their own personal theology or denomination. One will also see their experience with God become alive as their prayer life becomes filled with faith and power. I encourage any who partakes in soaking prayer to journalize their prayer life. You will be amazed at how the power of God is released in your life, and how the very words of your prayers take on new life. You'll stand in awe as you watch the very power of God begin to work a work in your homes, churches, and work places. If you don't believe me, like I said, journalize it. And document your prayers and how God answers them. You'll get a new found understanding of the power of the spoken word when one is "in the Spirit" and how the power of God moves so seamlessly, working in accordance to your faith and the will of God.

[n david]

I remember it well. We'd gather for prayer and find a quiet spot in the sanctuary where we'd lay, sit, or prostrate ourselves and just soak in God's presence. The Spirit would move and we'd quietly pray, speak in tongues, weep, as the Spirit spoke to us. Whether one calls it "waiting on the Lord" or "soaking prayer", it's all the same thing.
That...

is not this

I've turned on some soft worship music, laid down on my couch, folded my hands, and just focused on breathing or on a single word. I like the name of Jesus. Sometimes I love to extend it as I say it or think it, "Jeeeesus". Sometimes, it's a phrase, "I loooove you, Lord." On other occasions it's, "Hallelujah" (more like, "Haaaaleluuuujah.").

What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections

Enter a relaxed and prayerful state of mind. Feel free to have prepared some soft and relaxing worship music, burn a soothing aromatic candle, take a hot bath and lay down (or do all three). Whatever you have to do to relax and balance your entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Read these verses slowly. With eyes closed, picture any imagery used by the writers in each text.

That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

[Evang.Benincasa]

Doesn't bother me. I just think it's odd some people feel the need to post their prayer publicly to show others.

To each his own. :thumbsup

How about when they post pictures of themselves with tears eyes? :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

That...

is not this



What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections



That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

You killed it!

:lol

[Aquila]

That...

is not this



What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections



That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

My point is... it is relatively the same. Keating didn't discover anything that Pentecostals haven't been doing for generations without all the trappings of Catholicism. Keating is only using systematic terminology that we don't use. We Pentecostals are well ahead of Keating and the charismatics. You mean to tell me that you've never entered into a contemplative state of prayer focused on the name of Jesus, His work on the cross, baptism, Spirit infilling, a specific teaching, or word in Scripture? You've never received visions, insight, or direction based on your reflections in prayer? You've never been in this state of prayer and experienced bodily sensations or deep spiritual impressions? If you have... you've done this too.

Remember, well before Pentecostals became "popular", the main stream denominations were calling us witches, claiming that speaking in tongues was occult or of the devil, and even charging us for seeking "mystical experiences" outside of the purely intellectual framework of Biblical doctrines.

I challenge you with this. I think you've drifted from the more spiritual path that embraces spiritual experiences, visions, and practices to embrace an unbalanced position of rationalism and skepticism. You'd condemn the Apostolic seers, healers, visionaries, and prophets among us because they don't measure up to your dusty old, spiritually dead, pseudo-intellectualism that denounces any spiritual experience or seeking that might challenge your rationalistic interpretation of Scripture.

As I studied soaking prayer and contemplative prayer I found myself thinking... "This guy has no new insight. He's only discussing the spiritual benefits of what we've done and experienced all these years. He's just trying to inject elements of Catholicism into it." There is a growing hunger among those outside of Pentecost for what we've always had and experienced.

[n david]

https://i.imgur.com/GD3WcpH.gif

[houston]

There really is a witch among us.

[houston]

https://i.imgur.com/GD3WcpH.gif

That’s the point where you stand up and rebuke... or walk out and shake the dust off your feet.

[houston]

I challenge you with this. I think you've drifted from the more spiritual path that embraces spiritual experiences, visions, and practices to embrace an unbalanced position of rationalism and skepticism. You'd condemn the Apostolic seers, healers, visionaries, and prophets among us because they don't measure up to your dusty old, spiritually dead, pseudo-intellectualism that denounces any spiritual experience or seeking that might challenge your rationalistic interpretation of Scripture.

This is like a revision of Tommy Tenney’s God Chasers.

[Aquila]

Based on what I'm reading on this thread... the New Apostolic Pentecostalism you guys are advocating for should meet the following criteria:

1.) One must have no emotion or emotional response to music, prayer, or impressions from the Spirit. Emotion is dangerous.
2.) Question all impressions from the Holy Spirit that result from any state of worship or study of Scripture. Impressions and leadings are dangerous.
3.) Don't contemplate Scriptural truths, the divine names, or specific words or concepts of Scripture, and definitely don't speak them out loud. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) Don't breathe or relax during prayer. Using breathing techniques to relax is dangerous.
5.) Never use music as a tool to bring mind and spirit into harmony. Music is dangerous.
6.) Experiencing and enjoying the presence of God is strongly discouraged. Experiencing God is dangerous.
7.) There is no benefit in experiencing the presence of God. Benefiting from God's presence is dangerous.
8.) There is no benefit for experiencing the presence of God because we're not to experience anything. Experiences are dangerous.
9.) There is no power to be received or utilized through the Holy Spirit. Believing in such authority and power is dangerous.
10.) Any music outside of that written and performed by Apostolics who conform to these expectations is to be rejected. Non-Apostolic music is dangerous.
11.) Anything anyone does outside of this paradigm makes them a witch.
12.) Dancing, exuberant, emotion filled worship is silly and charismatic. Dancing, exuberance, and emotion filled worship is dangerous.

Essentially, the above is what I'm gathering here. I've been a born again Pentecostal for over 25 years. I can honestly say that there has never been a more anti-Apostolic Pentecostal position than the above. Yet those who would disagree are castigated as being the "witches".

[Amanah]

Since the 1990s there has been an increased focus on mysticism within various segments of Christianity. Bordering on the esoteric, these mystical experiences broaden the division between a "factual faith" and a "felt faith," and threaten to replace sound biblical teaching with emotion-driven response. Soaking prayer is one such mystical activity. It is described as resting in God's presence. This is accomplished by playing some gentle worship songs, either sitting or lying down, and praying short, simple prayers for an extended period of time, but otherwise keeping your mind free of other thoughts. At the point when you sense God's presence through some type of manifestation like tingling skin, a sensation of heat or cold, or even a gentle wind seemingly blowing through your body, you are to just "soak" in that presence.

Although that might sound a little strange to some, it does not immediately come across as being necessarily bad. However, the rule by which we measure our experiences in life is the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and when soaking prayer is examined accordingly, we find that it comes up wanting for biblical support. Nowhere in the Bible can a model of prayer be found that soaking prayer follows.

Prayer in its simplest form in the Bible is calling on the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), and in each instance where it is found in Scripture, it is descriptive of communicating with God. Soaking prayer starts that way, but quickly devolves into a trance-like meditative state. This is when soaking prayer ceases to be biblical and becomes more like a New Age practice or something an adherent of Hinduism would participate in.

There is no denying that experiencing the presence of God can be powerful and life changing. It is not the goal of soaking prayer that is biblically errant; it is its methodology. Soaking prayer focuses on obtaining a spiritual experience by seeking out the presence of God through mystical exercises. In this it is similar to ”contemplative prayer” and contemplative spirituality, which are equally unbiblical. Biblical prayer is talking to God with His will in mind (1 John 5:14). A biblically praying believer already understands that God's presence is always with him (Psalm 139:7; Matthew 28:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Timothy 1:14), and he doesn’t need to experience any type of physical sensation to prove it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soaking-prayer.html

[n david]

Based on what I'm reading on this thread... the New Apostolic Pentecostalism you guys are advocating for should meet the following criteria:

1.) One must have no emotion or emotional response to music, prayer, or impressions from the Spirit. Emotion is dangerous.
2.) Question all impressions from the Holy Spirit that result from any state of worship or study of Scripture. Impressions and leadings are dangerous.
3.) Don't contemplate Scriptural truths, the divine names, or specific words or concepts of Scripture, and definitely don't speak them out loud. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) Don't breathe or relax during prayer. Using breathing techniques to relax is dangerous.
5.) Never use music as a tool to bring mind and spirit into harmony. Music is dangerous.
6.) Experiencing and enjoying the presence of God is strongly discouraged. Experiencing God is dangerous.
7.) There is no benefit in experiencing the presence of God. Benefiting from God's presence is dangerous.
8.) There is no benefit for experiencing the presence of God because we're not to experience anything. Experiences are dangerous.
9.) There is no power to be received or utilized through the Holy Spirit. Believing in such authority and power is dangerous.
10.) Any music outside of that written and performed by Apostolics who conform to these expectations is to be rejected. Non-Apostolic music is dangerous.
11.) Anything anyone does outside of this paradigm makes them a witch.
12.) Dancing, exuberant, emotion filled worship is silly and charismatic. Dancing, exuberance, and emotion filled worship is dangerous.

Essentially, the above is what I'm gathering here. I've been a born again Pentecostal for over 25 years. I can honestly say that there has never been a more anti-Pentecostal position than the above.
That's a blatant mischaracterization of what's been said here.

In a nutshell it's this: worship isn't about the "feelz." It's not about music at all. It certainly isn't occult practices such as centering, contemplative prayer, soaking, burning candles or incense while mumbling a mantra.

#StopIt

[n david]

Since the 1990s there has been an increased focus on mysticism within various segments of Christianity. Bordering on the esoteric, these mystical experiences broaden the division between a "factual faith" and a "felt faith," and threaten to replace sound biblical teaching with emotion-driven response. Soaking prayer is one such mystical activity. It is described as resting in God's presence. This is accomplished by playing some gentle worship songs, either sitting or lying down, and praying short, simple prayers for an extended period of time, but otherwise keeping your mind free of other thoughts. At the point when you sense God's presence through some type of manifestation like tingling skin, a sensation of heat or cold, or even a gentle wind seemingly blowing through your body, you are to just "soak" in that presence.

Although that might sound a little strange to some, it does not immediately come across as being necessarily bad. However, the rule by which we measure our experiences in life is the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and when soaking prayer is examined accordingly, we find that it comes up wanting for biblical support. Nowhere in the Bible can a model of prayer be found that soaking prayer follows.

Prayer in its simplest form in the Bible is calling on the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), and in each instance where it is found in Scripture, it is descriptive of communicating with God. Soaking prayer starts that way, but quickly devolves into a trance-like meditative state. This is when soaking prayer ceases to be biblical and becomes more like a New Age practice or something an adherent of Hinduism would participate in.

There is no denying that experiencing the presence of God can be powerful and life changing. It is not the goal of soaking prayer that is biblically errant; it is its methodology. Soaking prayer focuses on obtaining a spiritual experience by seeking out the presence of God through mystical exercises. In this it is similar to ”contemplative prayer” and contemplative spirituality, which are equally unbiblical. Biblical prayer is talking to God with His will in mind (1 John 5:14). A biblically praying believer already understands that God's presence is always with him (Psalm 139:7; Matthew 28:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Timothy 1:14), and he doesn’t need to experience any type of physical sensation to prove it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soaking-prayer.html

Aquila doesn't care. You can find all the evidence you want showing it's rotten at the core, he'll just claim they were looking our way. Because, per him Pentecostals have always been mystics and performed contemplative and centering new age and occult junk.

[houston]

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

[Amanah]

Aquila, you seem to be drifting off in the wrong direction somehow.

Brothers on this forum have warned you and are warning you, take it to heart and examine your direction/beliefs.

[Aquila]

Since the 1990s there has been an increased focus on mysticism within various segments of Christianity. Bordering on the esoteric, these mystical experiences broaden the division between a "factual faith" and a "felt faith," and threaten to replace sound biblical teaching with emotion-driven response. Soaking prayer is one such mystical activity. It is described as resting in God's presence. This is accomplished by playing some gentle worship songs, either sitting or lying down, and praying short, simple prayers for an extended period of time, but otherwise keeping your mind free of other thoughts. At the point when you sense God's presence through some type of manifestation like tingling skin, a sensation of heat or cold, or even a gentle wind seemingly blowing through your body, you are to just "soak" in that presence.

Although that might sound a little strange to some, it does not immediately come across as being necessarily bad. However, the rule by which we measure our experiences in life is the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and when soaking prayer is examined accordingly, we find that it comes up wanting for biblical support. Nowhere in the Bible can a model of prayer be found that soaking prayer follows.

Prayer in its simplest form in the Bible is calling on the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), and in each instance where it is found in Scripture, it is descriptive of communicating with God. Soaking prayer starts that way, but quickly devolves into a trance-like meditative state. This is when soaking prayer ceases to be biblical and becomes more like a New Age practice or something an adherent of Hinduism would participate in.

There is no denying that experiencing the presence of God can be powerful and life changing. It is not the goal of soaking prayer that is biblically errant; it is its methodology. Soaking prayer focuses on obtaining a spiritual experience by seeking out the presence of God through mystical exercises. In this it is similar to ”contemplative prayer” and contemplative spirituality, which are equally unbiblical. Biblical prayer is talking to God with His will in mind (1 John 5:14). A biblically praying believer already understands that God's presence is always with him (Psalm 139:7; Matthew 28:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Timothy 1:14), and he doesn’t need to experience any type of physical sensation to prove it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soaking-prayer.html

So, let me make sure I understand...

1.) No playing gentle worship music to relax to.
2.) No sitting or lying down (I'd like to see this lol).
3.) No short, simple prayers over an extended period of time.
4.) No keeping one's mind free of distracting thoughts.
5.) No manifestations of God's presence that can be sensed or felt.
6.) No "soaking" or tarrying in such an experience.
7.) No contemplation regarding God or biblical truths.
8.) No trance-like spiritual states containing ecstatic spiritual experiences.

Got it. :thumbsup

[Aquila]

Aquila, you seem to be drifting off in the wrong direction somehow.

Brothers on this forum have warned you and are warning you, take it to heart and examine your direction/beliefs.

I think these brothers are overreacting.

[Aquila]

This is like a revision of Tommy Tenney’s God Chasers.

Never read it. It came out back when I was rock solid UPCI or bust. lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Aquila doesn't care. You can find all the evidence you want showing it's rotten at the core, he'll just claim they were looking our way. Because, per him Pentecostals have always been mystics and performed contemplative and centering new age and occult junk.

Hey, is this the UFO thread? :ursofunny

[Aquila]

That's a blatant mischaracterization of what's been said here.

In a nutshell it's this: worship isn't about the "feelz." It's not about music at all. It certainly isn't occult practices such as centering, contemplative prayer, soaking, burning candles or incense while mumbling a mantra.

#StopIt

Maybe you haven't argued for everything noted. But you've argued for some of it. The other things are contributions I've pulled from others as they brow beat Michael over liking music from a church that was deemed to be too "charismatic" or something.

I think some throw the occult accusation around far too much for it to have any serious weight. But based on your post above, now we can add the following to the list:

1.) No "feelz". Feelz are dangerous. (Do "feelz" mean "feelings"?)
2.) No seeking to feel centered. Being centered in prayer is dangerous.
3.) No contemplation regarding God or the truths of the Bible. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) No candles. Candles are dangerous.
5.) No incense. Incense is dangerous.

Got it. :thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think these brothers are overreacting.

You should use that as your signature line.

Chris, you come up with some strange ideas, but they aren't for us. They are meant for new converts, or people who are struggling with their faith, They are lurking, and come across your hoo doo voo doo, and drink from the well. If they are currently attending a church they have a pastor who God willing will direct them accordingly. If not, then I pray God's mercy be upon them.

[Aquila]

Aquila doesn't care. You can find all the evidence you want showing it's rotten at the core, he'll just claim they were looking our way. Because, per him Pentecostals have always been mystics and performed contemplative and centering new age and occult junk.

Actually, I do care. I think I just have a different perspective.

There is a difference between the term "mystic" as used in Christian history and "mystic" as used in the New Age. They are two TOTALLY different things. Those who confuse the two are only showing that they don't know what they are talking about.

The New Age certainly does contain counterfeit experiences, practices, etc. But a counterfeit is not a counterfeit unless it is attempting to duplicate the real thing. For example, "clairesentience" as described by many in the New Age is nothing more than a counterfeit of the "gift of knowledge". That doesn't mean that those with the gift of knowledge are witches or New Agers.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Maybe you haven't argued for everything noted. But you've argued for some of it. The other things are contributions I've pulled from others as they brow beat Michael over liking music from a church that was deemed to be too "charismatic" or something.

I think some throw the occult accusation around far too much for it to have any serious weight. But based on your post above, now we can add the following to the list:

1.) No "feelz". Feelz are dangerous. (Do "feelz" mean "feelings"?)
2.) No seeking to feel centered. Being centered in prayer is dangerous.
3.) No contemplation regarding God or the truths of the Bible. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) No candles. Candles are dangerous.
5.) No incense. Incense is dangerous.

Got it. :thumbsup

He isn't throwing anything around flippantly. Neither was Esaias when he used the word witch. You know what they meant, and why they posted what they posted. The whole soaked in the word stuff is a little weird.

Sadly, Huston's meme is what comes to mind.

[Aquila]

Hey, is this the UFO thread? :ursofunny

No, this isn't the UFO thread. :lol

The UFO thread is only a hypothetical inquiry based on the statements made by the former director of AATIP. It was just for fun.

Worship, however, is a bit more serious.

The way Michael was treated on this thread was deplorable. Why was he treated that way just because he liked a song (or style of music) from IHOP or something?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Actually, I do care. I think I just have a different perspective.

So, did Moses David Berg, Yoneq Eugene Spriggs, Charlie Manson, Marshall Applewhite, James Warren Jones, Sun Myung Moon. and Swami Vivekananda.

All had had a different perspective on what the Bible was trying to say to the people.

[Aquila]

He isn't throwing anything around flippantly. Neither was Esaias when he used the word witch. You know what they meant, and why they posted what they posted. The whole soaked in the word stuff is a little weird.

Sadly, Huston's meme is what comes to mind.

Now saying that the whole thought of "soaking" in prayer, or in the word, is "weird" is fair. It is fair because those who have not heard the term in that context may very well find it weird. This allows the individual to perhaps explain what "soaking prayer" is to them, and how they have experienced it, instead of just assuming that what they mean and calling them a witch. :thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

The way Michael was treated on this thread was deplorable. Why was he treated that way just because he liked a song (or style of music) from IHOP or something?

:stop Stop, the posts are being levied at you.

[Aquila]

So, did Moses David Berg, Yoneq Eugene Spriggs, Charlie Manson, Marshall Applewhite, James Warren Jones, Sun Myung Moon. and Swami Vivekananda.

All had had a different perspective on what the Bible was trying to say to the people.

I hate to break it to you... but nearly everyone who has ever read the Bible has a perspective on what they believe the Bible is trying to say to the people. Even you.

This isn't news at 11.

[Aquila]

:stop Stop, the posts are being levied at you.

Nope. I didn't even start really posting in this thread until after I began reading what was being said to Michael. Go back, look if you don't believe me. In fact, I brought up the whole soaking prayer and contemplative stuff because I knew some wouldn't be able to resist the attack. I just felt like taking some heat off Michael. I mean, all he was getting beat up for was for liking some charismatic song or music style or something. That's not cool.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Now saying that the whole thought of "soaking" in prayer, or in the word, is "weird" is fair. It is fair because those who have not heard the term in that context may very well find it weird. This allows the individual to perhaps explain what "soaking prayer" is to them, and how they have experienced it, instead of just assuming that what they mean and calling them a witch. :thumbsup

Your definition is found in the Lexicon of Strange Christian groups? :laffatu

[Evang.Benincasa]

Nope. I didn't even start jumping in until after I began reading what was being said to Michael. Go back, look if you don't believe me.

Ok, I was gone for a bit, so when was it you brought up Esaias in your chant?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I mean, all he was getting beat up for was for liking some charismatic music or something.

Or something? You mean you really don't know why?

That's about typical with you. :)

[Aquila]

Ok, I was gone for a bit, so when was it you brought up Esaias in your chant?

Not sure what you're talking about. I never said a chant.

[Aquila]

Or something? You mean you really don't know why?

That's about typical with you. :)

Well, can you explain why Michael was being berated so badly?

[n david]

Maybe you haven't argued for everything noted. But you've argued for some of it. The other things are contributions I've pulled from others as they brow beat Michael over liking music from a church that was deemed to be too "charismatic" or something.

I think some throw the occult accusation around far too much for it to have any serious weight. But based on your post above, now we can add the following to the list:

1.) No "feelz". Feelz are dangerous. (Do "feelz" mean "feelings"?)
2.) No seeking to feel centered. Being centered in prayer is dangerous.
3.) No contemplation regarding God or the truths of the Bible. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) No candles. Candles are dangerous.
5.) No incense. Incense is dangerous.

Got it. :thumbsup

Do you have an honest bone in your body? That's not at all what I said.

[Aquila]

Do you have an honest bone in your body? That's not at all what I said.

So, all those things are okay?

[Evang.Benincasa]

So, all those things are okay?

You must be hysterical to argue with in person. :laffatu

[n david]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/mind-blown.gif

[Esaias]

Based on what I'm reading on this thread... the New Apostolic Pentecostalism you guys are advocating for should meet the following criteria:

1.) One must have no emotion or emotional response to music, prayer, or impressions from the Spirit. Emotion is dangerous.
2.) Question all impressions from the Holy Spirit that result from any state of worship or study of Scripture. Impressions and leadings are dangerous.
3.) Don't contemplate Scriptural truths, the divine names, or specific words or concepts of Scripture, and definitely don't speak them out loud. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) Don't breathe or relax during prayer. Using breathing techniques to relax is dangerous.
5.) Never use music as a tool to bring mind and spirit into harmony. Music is dangerous.
6.) Experiencing and enjoying the presence of God is strongly discouraged. Experiencing God is dangerous.
7.) There is no benefit in experiencing the presence of God. Benefiting from God's presence is dangerous.
8.) There is no benefit for experiencing the presence of God because we're not to experience anything. Experiences are dangerous.
9.) There is no power to be received or utilized through the Holy Spirit. Believing in such authority and power is dangerous.
10.) Any music outside of that written and performed by Apostolics who conform to these expectations is to be rejected. Non-Apostolic music is dangerous.
11.) Anything anyone does outside of this paradigm makes them a witch.
12.) Dancing, exuberant, emotion filled worship is silly and charismatic. Dancing, exuberance, and emotion filled worship is dangerous.

Essentially, the above is what I'm gathering here. I've been a born again Pentecostal for over 25 years. I can honestly say that there has never been a more anti-Apostolic Pentecostal position than the above. Yet those who would disagree are castigated as being the "witches".

You obviously either can't read plain English, or you have an agenda.

[Evang.Benincasa]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6073&stc=1&d=1515215884

[Esaias]

Once again:



1. Worship is not limited to music, or how we "feel" in response to music.

2. Worship is judged, by Jesus Christ, according to DOCTRINE, and not according to how we "feel".

I never said a heretic couldn't write a good song. Nor did I say a heretic couldn't write a good song that could be used by God's church as part of its worship. All things are ours, according to the apostle. Therefore, the church can make use of whatever is available, assuming the thing made use of is not in itself heretical, false, or evil, and assuming it would not be inexpedient or a stumbling block to others.

What I take issue with is the idea that heretics have a corner on the worship market. One can only think that if they have a grossly unbiblical view of what actual worship is.

So, just to be clear, to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding, here it is again:

The Bible does not describe worship as a euphoria brought about by The Most Awesomest Music Ever™. The apostles never taught that we must strive to create the Most Awesomest Worship Experiences through the use of Super Awesome Music. The Bible does not define worship in terms of how we feel, it does not grade or measure worship by musical terms or qualities, nor by merely emotional states and feelings, nor does it suggest that worship = music to begin with.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Since the 1990s there has been an increased focus on mysticism within various segments of Christianity. Bordering on the esoteric, these mystical experiences broaden the division between a "factual faith" and a "felt faith," and threaten to replace sound biblical teaching with emotion-driven response. Soaking prayer is one such mystical activity. It is described as resting in God's presence. This is accomplished by playing some gentle worship songs, either sitting or lying down, and praying short, simple prayers for an extended period of time, but otherwise keeping your mind free of other thoughts. At the point when you sense God's presence through some type of manifestation like tingling skin, a sensation of heat or cold, or even a gentle wind seemingly blowing through your body, you are to just "soak" in that presence.

Although that might sound a little strange to some, it does not immediately come across as being necessarily bad. However, the rule by which we measure our experiences in life is the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and when soaking prayer is examined accordingly, we find that it comes up wanting for biblical support. Nowhere in the Bible can a model of prayer be found that soaking prayer follows.

Prayer in its simplest form in the Bible is calling on the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), and in each instance where it is found in Scripture, it is descriptive of communicating with God. Soaking prayer starts that way, but quickly devolves into a trance-like meditative state. This is when soaking prayer ceases to be biblical and becomes more like a New Age practice or something an adherent of Hinduism would participate in.

There is no denying that experiencing the presence of God can be powerful and life changing. It is not the goal of soaking prayer that is biblically errant; it is its methodology. Soaking prayer focuses on obtaining a spiritual experience by seeking out the presence of God through mystical exercises. In this it is similar to ”contemplative prayer” and contemplative spirituality, which are equally unbiblical. Biblical prayer is talking to God with His will in mind (1 John 5:14). A biblically praying believer already understands that God's presence is always with him (Psalm 139:7; Matthew 28:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Timothy 1:14), and he doesn’t need to experience any type of physical sensation to prove it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soaking-prayer.html

:highfive

[Aquila]

You must be hysterical to argue with in person. :laffatu

I can be. You guys miss over half of it because you can't see my non-verbals. lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

I can be. You guys miss over half of it because you can't see my non-verbals. lol

I am so thankful we can't see your non verbals. :heeheehee

[Aquila]

You obviously either can't read plain English, or you have an agenda.

So is the following safe to say?

1.) One might feel deep emotion or emotional response to music, prayer, or impressions from the Spirit. This is part of how God designed us.
2.) Receive and test impressions from the Holy Spirit that result from any state of worship or study of Scripture. Impressions and leadings do happen.
3.) One can freely contemplate Scriptural truths, the divine names, or specific words or concepts of Scripture. Contemplation (Christian meditation) can be deeply beneficial.
4.) During silent prayer time one is free to relax during prayer. Using breathing techniques to relax is an option.
5.) Music can be a valuable tool to bring the focus of one's mind and spirit into harmony. Music is a blessing when used to bring focus to Jesus.
6.) One should freely experience and enjoy the presence of God. Experiencing God is a part of having a personal relationship with Him.
7.) There is power to be received and utilized by faith through the Holy Spirit.
8.) Musical styles are theologically neutral.
9.) While doctrinal statements made in some songs may not reflect the fullness of Apostolic understanding, most Christian worship songs are generally acceptable.
10.) Worship can include being still or dancing. Sincere, emotional, and heartfelt worship offering praise to God is both biblical and desired by God.

[Aquila]

I am so thankful we can't see your non verbals. :heeheehee

You probably are. :heeheehee

[Esaias]

Taking a single word (like "Jesus") and repeating it over and over again is straight up mantra yoga. Repeating "Jesus" over and over in order to focus the mind and generate feelings of love, adoration, and a sense of union with Jesus is a mantra yoga technique used in bhakti yoga.

Mantra yoga is using a single word or short phrase, repeated over and over in conjunction with breathing techniques in order to eliminate all other thoughts, focusing the mind on one single thing (either the sound of the chanted word or phrase, or the Idea signified by the word/phrase). By havingbthe mind engulfed in one single solid thought, mental discipline is achieved, singleness of mind it is called. This in turn prepares the mantra yogin (chanter) for "entering the Void", ie the elimination of all cognitive thought processes and a state of pure simple "awareness". This "silence" is meant to make possible the sudden epiphany or eureka moment in which the yogin suddenly discovers the interconnectedness of all things, by experiencing consciousness itself in the abstract, aka "the Divine Mind" or the "One Mind" that underlies all reality.

Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion. By devoting oneself to a deity, for example, or a guru or lover or idea, whatever, doesn't matter, one loses all self-identity. They become absorbed in The Other, leading again to Singleness of Mind, Stillness, and Awareness of Universal Being. Feelings of love are artificially stimulated as a means of focusing the mind on the object of devotion.

Nothing new about "contemplative prayer" or IHOP/charismatic methodology. It's been practiced by just about EVERY PAGAN CULTURE THROUGHOUT ALL KNOWN HISTORY.

[n david]

I am so thankful we can't see your non verbals. :heeheehee

http://i.imgur.com/eLV6waA.gif

[n david]

Taking a single word (like "Jesus") and repeating it over and over again is straight up mantra yoga. Repeating "Jesus" over and over in order to focus the mind and generate feelings of love, adoration, and a sense of union with Jesus is a mantra yoga technique used in bhakti yoga.

Mantra yoga is using a single word or short phrase, repeated over and over in conjunction with breathing techniques in order to eliminate all other thoughts, focusing the mind on one single thing (either the sound of the chanted word or phrase, or the Idea signified by the word/phrase). By havingbthe mind engulfed in one single solid thought, mental discipline is achieved, singleness of mind it is called. This in turn prepares the mantra yogin (chanter) for "entering the Void", ie the elimination of all cognitive thought processes and a state of pure simple "awareness". This "silence" is meant to make possible the sudden epiphany or eureka moment in which the yogin suddenly discovers the interconnectedness of all things, by experiencing consciousness itself in the abstract, aka "the Divine Mind" or the "One Mind" that underlies all reality.

Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion. By devoting oneself to a deity, for example, or a guru or lover or idea, whatever, doesn't matter, one loses all self-identity. They become absorbed in The Other, leading again to Singleness of Mind, Stillness, and Awareness of Universal Being. Feelings of love are artificially stimulated as a means of focusing the mind on the object of devotion.

Nothing new about "contemplative prayer" or IHOP/charismatic methodology. It's been practiced by just about EVERY PAGAN CULTURE THROUGHOUT ALL KNOWN HISTORY.

Yoga has been looking our way...

[Esaias]

Yoga has been looking our way...

May the Schwartz be with him!

[Aquila]

Taking a single word (like "Jesus") and repeating it over and over again is straight up mantra yoga. Repeating "Jesus" over and over in order to focus the mind and generate feelings of love, adoration, and a sense of union with Jesus is a mantra yoga technique used in bhakti yoga.

I've seen elders with white hair weeping as they slowly say the name of Jesus over and over with such reverence and adoration it made me cry watching them. That wasn't mantra yoga. It was just repeating the name of the one you love. There's no way Rev. Huss Shearer was practicing mantra yoga. LOL

Mantra yoga is using a single word or short phrase, repeated over and over in conjunction with breathing techniques in order to eliminate all other thoughts, focusing the mind on one single thing (either the sound of the chanted word or phrase, or the Idea signified by the word/phrase). By havingbthe mind engulfed in one single solid thought, mental discipline is achieved, singleness of mind it is called. This in turn prepares the mantra yogin (chanter) for "entering the Void", ie the elimination of all cognitive thought processes and a state of pure simple "awareness". This "silence" is meant to make possible the sudden epiphany or eureka moment in which the yogin suddenly discovers the interconnectedness of all things, by experiencing consciousness itself in the abstract, aka "the Divine Mind" or the "One Mind" that underlies all reality.

Well, we just absolutely can't have anything close to focusing the mind on the Lord, allowing ourselves to be engulfed by that one single thought of who He is bringing singleness of mind now can we? lol And God forbid we enter a place where we have decreased and He has increased in our minds, we taking on the mind of Christ until the simple awareness of Christ in us is realized. Nope. We just can't have none of that. LOL

Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion. By devoting oneself to a deity, for example, or a guru or lover or idea, whatever, doesn't matter, one loses all self-identity. They become absorbed in The Other, leading again to Singleness of Mind, Stillness, and Awareness of Universal Being. Feelings of love are artificially stimulated as a means of focusing the mind on the object of devotion.

Sounds terrible. I couldn't imagine being so devoted to Christ until I completely lose my identity in Him, and putting on the very mind of Christ. And all that inner peace and stillness? Good grief, who needs that in this crazy world??? We better not focus our minds on Christ so much that we create that there "artificially stimulated" love and devotion. LOL

Nothing new about "contemplative prayer" or IHOP/charismatic methodology. It's been practiced by just about EVERY PAGAN CULTURE THROUGHOUT ALL KNOWN HISTORY.

I don't know how old you are or how many old timers you've known. But my first pastor was Reverend Huss Shearer. We'd have prayer meetings in the church sanctuary with the lights dimmed and he'd be so lost in prayer on the front pew that if you needed his attention you had to tap him a couple times. (Rev. Shearer was the one who preached a sermon on praying so deep in the Spirit that one can enter a trance. I still remember the way he'd move his hand when he said it. Please note, he was talking about the visionary trance Peter was in on the rooftop in Joppa, which was his text.) Rev. Shearer would be weeping and praying and singing in tongues. He'd often sit rocking in the pew, or swaying sideways, eyes closed, tears streaming down, saying, "Jeeeeeeesus. Jeeeeesus. Jeeeeesus. I love your name. Jeeeeesus. I worship you. Jeeeeesus. Jeeeeesus. Jeeeeeesus. I praise you. Jeeeeeesus. Jeeeeeesus. Jeeeeeesus." Sometimes he'd change it up with, "Haaaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. I love you Lord. Haaaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. I praise you Lord. Haaaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah." Sometimes the repetition of the name of Jesus and Hallelujah would be far more than just three or four. It was beautiful, loving, inspiring.

Huss Shearer was known by many as a seer and prophet. Cornerstone Baptist Church (which was just on the next corner) called him a warlock because one day Huss Shearer read a few congregation members mail through a word of knowledge. His father was Harvey Franklin Shearer. Both Harvey Shearer and Howard Goss preached the Oneness Gospel in Louisiana in 1915 and 1916. Harvey Shearer was one of the first ministers in the United States to preach the Jesus name message in the early 1900s. He baptized the first 300 preachers in Jesus’ name right before becoming the first chairman of the Louisiana camp over 100 years ago. Harvey Shearer's son, Huss Shearer, preached for over 40 years and pastored churches in Texas and here in Ohio where he eventually served as district superintendent.

Huss Shearer was the greatest pastor I ever had. He had a walk that was so saturated with the Holy Ghost, you could feel Jesus when you walked into his office. I sincerely miss him more than any man of God I've ever known.

But I said all that to say this. You have a lot of "knowledge" about this yoga stuff. And I'm sure that you've read quite a few books by these non-Pentecostals who even believe that tongues are Kundalini. You probably even helped make a little money by buying their books. But you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to just soaking in the Holy Ghost during prayer.

Below is a picture of Rev. Huss Shearer. Next to it is a picture of Rev. Huss Shearer and his wife, Sis. Carol Shearer. She was such a wonderful lady. If it wasn't for her, me and my first wife wouldn't have had a wedding. We wanted to be married in the pastors office because we were broke. Sis. Shearer was like, "Oh no! No, no, no. You two are having a wedding!" She then got the ladies of the church together and dug out decorations, props, pillars, the works. She appointed a sister named Janet to personally assist us with anything we needed. It was so beautiful.

After he fell asleep and was laid to rest in Woodland Cemetery, about two miles from my house, I discovered that they just didn't make them like Rev. Shearer any more.

So, do you think he was a yoga master, warlock, or witch?

[Evang.Benincasa]

But you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to JUST SOAKING in the Holy Ghost during prayer.


https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/raining_david_tennant.gif

[Evang.Benincasa]

Huss Shearer was the greatest pastor I ever had.

What would you say would be his opinion of the religious direction you have taken?

[Esaias]

I've seen elders with white hair weeping as they slowly say the name of Jesus over and over with such reverence and adoration it made me cry watching them. That wasn't mantra yoga. It was just repeating the name of the one you love. There's no way Rev. Huss Shearer was practicing mantra yoga. LOL



Well, we just absolutely can't have anything close to focusing the mind on the Lord, allowing ourselves to be engulfed by that one single thought of who He is bringing singleness of mind now can we? lol And God forbid we enter a place where we have decreased and He has increased in our minds, we taking on the mind of Christ until the simple awareness of Christ in us is realized. Nope. We just can't have none of that. LOL



Sounds terrible. I couldn't imagine being so devoted to Christ until I completely lose my identity in Him, and putting on the very mind of Christ. And all that inner peace and stillness? Good grief, who needs that in this crazy world??? We better not focus our minds on Christ so much that we create that there "artificially stimulated" love and devotion. LOL



I don't know how old you are or how many old timers you've known. But my first pastor was Reverend Huss Shearer. We'd have prayer meetings in the church sanctuary with the lights dimmed and he'd be so lost in prayer on the front pew that if you needed his attention you had to tap him a couple times. (Rev. Shearer was the one who preached a sermon on praying so deep in the Spirit that one can enter a trance. I still remember the way he'd move his hand when he said it. Please note, he was talking about the visionary trance Peter was in on the rooftop in Joppa, which was his text.) Rev. Shearer would be weeping and praying and singing in tongues. He'd often sit rocking in the pew, or swaying sideways, eyes closed, tears streaming down, saying, "Jeeeeeeesus. Jeeeeesus. Jeeeeesus. I love your name. Jeeeeesus. I worship you. Jeeeeesus. Jeeeeesus. Jeeeeeesus. I praise you. Jeeeeeesus. Jeeeeeesus. Jeeeeeesus." Sometimes he'd change it up with, "Haaaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. I love you Lord. Haaaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. I praise you Lord. Haaaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah. Haaaaaalelujah." Sometimes the repetition of the name of Jesus and Hallelujah would be far more than just three or four. It was beautiful, loving, inspiring.

Huss Shearer was known by many as a seer and prophet. Cornerstone Baptist Church (which was just on the next corner) called him a warlock because one day Huss Shearer read a few congregation members mail through a word of knowledge. His father was Harvey Franklin Shearer. Both Harvey Shearer and Howard Goss preached the Oneness Gospel in Louisiana in 1915 and 1916. Harvey Shearer was one of the first ministers in the United States to preach the Jesus name message in the early 1900s. He baptized the first 300 preachers in Jesus’ name right before becoming the first chairman of the Louisiana camp over 100 years ago. Harvey Shearer's son, Huss Shearer, preached for over 40 years and pastored churches in Texas and here in Ohio where he eventually served as district superintendent.

Huss Shearer was the greatest pastor I ever had. He had a walk that was so saturated with the Holy Ghost, you could feel Jesus when you walked into his office. I sincerely miss him more than any man of God I've ever known.

But I said all that to say this. You have a lot of "knowledge" about this yoga stuff. And I'm sure that you've read quite a few books by these non-Pentecostals who even believe that tongues are Kundalini. You probably even helped make a little money by buying their books. But you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to just soaking in the Holy Ghost during prayer.

Below is a picture of Rev. Huss Shearer. Next to it is a picture of Rev. Huss Shearer and his wife, Sis. Carol Shearer. She was such a wonderful lady. If it wasn't for her, me and my first wife wouldn't have had a wedding. We wanted to be married in the pastors office because we were broke. Sis. Shearer was like, "Oh no! No, no, no. You two are having a wedding!" She then got the ladies of the church together and dug out decorations, props, pillars, the works. She appointed a sister named Janet to personally assist us with anything we needed. It was so beautiful.

After he fell asleep and was laid to rest in Woodland Cemetery, about two miles from my house, I discovered that they just didn't make them like Rev. Shearer any more.

So, do you think he was a yoga master, warlock, or witch?

I think you're deceived and are a mouthpiece of satan.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think you're deceived and are a mouthpiece of satan.

It usually takes a paragraph for me to tell him that, but brevity is good. :highfive

[Esaias]

It usually takes a paragraph for me to tell him that, but brevity is good. :highfive

The guy reads a lot of books, but I was raised in that claptrap, and know it when I see it.

[Aquila]

What would you say would be his opinion of the religious direction you have taken?

He'd disagree with my new found agreement with Preterism, but he'd not think it was salvific. He was a Mid-Tribber. He didn't like short sleeves, television, the internet, and the list could go on.

I've largely left a good deal of the UPCI standards he held. But I still believe the core doctrines he taught such as Oneness, Acts 2:38, praying three times a day, fasting, digging in and praying in tongues at least once a day, in visions and gifts of the Spirit, etc. Not sure what he'd say about house chuching, but he emphasized home based "care groups" as essential. He'd sometimes say just attending church isn't enough, true discipleship is in care groups. He was critical of courts, government authority over marriage, and war. He was a WWII vet, so his opinion of war was that it was no place for an Apostolic. He even tried to talk me out of enlisting. As stated in this thread, I believe it's possible, and beneficial, to pray so deeply you experience a trance and receive visions. I see no issue with repeating the name of Jesus or hallelujah in prayer. Nor do I condemn prayer that moves you and is emotional. He's the one who once told me that if your prayer doesn't move you, it won't move God. He'd even say that if your sermons don't move you, they won't move God. I believe it's possible to walk in the prophetic and the gift of the seer, as he did. He was big on prayer cloths, and the principle of residual anointing, and I believe in it too.

I could go on, but the primary things I've walked away from are the UPCI-like standards, not the spiritual principles, doctrines, and disciplines he taught.

[Michael The Disciple]

I've seen elders with white hair weeping as they slowly say the name of Jesus over and over with such reverence and adoration it made me cry watching them. That wasn't mantra yoga. It was just repeating the name of the one you love. There's no way Rev. Huss Shearer was practicing mantra yoga. LOL

Elder Shearer was the first Apostolic Pastor I met. He was powerful and had wisdom. Not sure which word perhaps both, strong/strict would describe him. Old time Pentecost in consecration with a string of miraculous testimonies following him.

He opposed ANYTHING "Charismatic" or new age and would have even unto the death. I can see in my minds eye him weeping at the altar for the souls of men and for men to live holy.

[Aquila]

Elder Shearer was the first Apostolic Pastor I met. He was powerful and had wisdom. Not sure which word perhaps both, strong/strict would describe him. Old time Pentecost in consecration with a string of miraculous testimonies following him.

He opposed ANYTHING "Charismatic" or new age and would have even unto the death. I can see in my minds eye him weeping at the altar for the souls of men and for men to live holy.

He was big on Holiness. You're right, he'd weep over the pulpit, "If you fall in love with Jesus, you'll live holy!!!" He inspired holiness. Yet, he was patient, kind, and gentle in person and in counseling. Being a vet, he understood PTSD (he called it shell-shock), and encouraged you too lean on God's grace and seek healing. He perfectly balanced his strictness with grace, love, and compassion.

The next couple pastors I had ruled with an iron fist. No patience, compassion, or inspiration. He warned us that the UPCI was becoming a white washed tomb.

No, he didn't tolerate the new age or occult things like ouji boards, tarot cards, crystals, etc. But he didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. He'd laugh when men would call him a warlock because he believed in and practiced the gifts. People either thought him a warlock or a prophet, though he'd never call himself anything but a man in love with Jesus. At our annual FEAST conferences they'd call him a prophet, but he'd dismiss it...he was truly humble. He firmly believed in the supernatural aspects of walking in the Holy Spirit, and demonstrated it almost daily.

I will be honest, I believe he was a prophet.

[Aquila]

You know, repeating the name, statements of praise, adoration, weeping, and emotional prayer and worship in prayer meetings were common. Speaking of the FEAST conference, I remember T.F Tenny, Tommy Tenny, Huss Shearer, Jonathan Suber, Brother Watkins, Pastor Smith from Main, and Bro. Jeff Arnold (a personal favorite), all in the fellowship hall praying with us (I was in the choir). They all prayed the same way.

One can call such repetition Yoga all they like. But it only shows that they don't know what they're talking about.

My point about soaking/contemplative prayer isn't that Keating and his kind discovered something we need. It is that they stumbled on something we Apostolic Pentecostals have done naturally and biblically for generations. They're late to the game, and they don't have the doctrine. They're a day late and a dollar short. If Keating wants to truly experience real soaking prayer, he should attend an old-time Apostolic prayer meeting.

[Aquila]

And those guys weren't stuffy wet blankets either. Jeff Arnold would always make a point to scare my wife when at the church. One night in prayer just before taking the platform, Arnold was a couple minutes late. We were all, hands raised, eyes shut, praying for God to move in the service. Arnold quietly walked up the steps towards us, reached through the bars of the hand rail and grabbed my wife's ankle! She jumped and started screaming, and we lost it because we knew he'd get her somehow! Lol

Serving God was enjoyable, fun, and refreshing. Everyone wasn't so critical. We loved and trusted one another. We sought to understand one another, not tear each other down. We had one anothers backs, in spite of our different perspectives. We didn't look for heresies just to discredit another minister in the hopes of taking his position or to boost ego. The heresy hunters aren't about truth. They're about slander and power grabbing. I certainly don't remember anyone slandering a brother over the style of music he likes. (Though, we might tease or razz you a bit).

Those were great days before Pastor Shearer fell asleep and everything became all about how hard you enforced the rules, politics, positions, slander, big money, and posturing.

Honestly, I miss those days sometime.

[Michael The Disciple]

He was big on Holiness. You're right, he'd weep over the pulpit, "If you fall in love with Jesus, you'll live holy!!!" He inspired holiness. Yet, he was patient, kind, and gentle in person and in counseling. Being a vet, he understood PTSD (he called it shell-shock), and encouraged you too lean on God's grace and seek healing. He perfectly balanced his strictness with grace, love, and compassion.

The next couple pastors I had ruled with an iron fist. No patience, compassion, or inspiration. He warned us that the UPCI was becoming a white washed tomb.

No, he didn't tolerate the new age or occult things like ouji boards, tarot cards, crystals, etc. But he didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. He'd laugh when men would call him a warlock because he believed in and practiced the gifts. People either thought him a warlock or a prophet, though he'd never call himself anything but a man in love with Jesus. At our annual FEAST conferences they'd call him a prophet, but he'd dismiss it...he was truly humble. He firmly believed in the supernatural aspects of walking in the Holy Spirit, and demonstrated it almost daily.

I will be honest, I believe he was a prophet.

My first knowledge of him a cousin of mine was going to the Lighthouse. He told me stories of how Bro. Shearer cast out demons both at Church and in homes.

The first time I visited there as a young Jesus Freak one of my old friends from sin asked if he could go to Church with me. I took him with me. As we knelt to pray during the meeting my friend got up and went to the altar.

I saw a group praying with him and right away he was getting baptized in Jesus name. He said when he was at the altar he had began speaking in tongues!

Some years later I had a house Church going. We had been praying for a demon possessed women without results. I called Bro. Shearer not knowing if he would come and help me, he didnt much care for house Churches but nonetheless he came with a few brothers.

We prayed and struggled with the enemy. Later that day the breakthrough came. So I have a few good memories of him altho I was never a member of the Church.

We visited now and then but I could not take some of the "standards". I know he is missed by many.

[Aquila]

My first knowledge of him a cousin of mine was going to the Lighthouse. He told me stories of how Bro. Shearer cast out demons both at Church and in homes.

The first time I visited there as a young Jesus Freak one of my old friends from sin asked if he could go to Church with me. I took him with me. As we knelt to pray during the meeting my friend got up and went to the altar.

I saw a group praying with him and right away he was getting baptized in Jesus name. He said when he was at the altar he had began speaking in tongues!

Some years later I had a house Church going. We had been praying for a demon possessed women without results. I called Bro. Shearer not knowing if he would come and help me, he didnt much care for house Churches but nonetheless he came with a few brothers.

We prayed and struggled with the enemy. Later that day the breakthrough came. So I have a few good memories of him altho I was never a member of the Church.

We visited now and then but I could not take some of the "standards". I know he is missed by many.

Yep, I also remember the casting out of demons in church and in homes. Those were some very intense things that were done, quite regularly, I should add. I cut my teeth with regards to spiritual warfare in those house calls and altar encounters. A lot of what people say today about spiritual warfare is so simplistic and wishy washy. Then they mock the very things I experienced first hand in those days. It's almost like they never had to fight a stronghold for a few hours, or even half the night. They don't believe in spirits manifesting or nothing like that anymore. They don't even believe in prayer cloths anymore. But in my day, all this stuff was the norm if you were Pentecostal.

[Aquila]

Oh well. I'm just the local heretic, witch, yogi. What do I know? Lol

[houston]

Yep, I also remember the casting out of demons in church and in homes. Those were some very intense things that were done, quite regularly, I should add. I cut my teeth with regards to spiritual warfare in those house calls and altar encounters. A lot of what people say today about spiritual warfare is so simplistic and wishy washy. Then they mock the very things I experienced first hand in those days. It's almost like they never had to fight a stronghold for a few hours, or even half the night. They don't believe in spirits manifesting or nothing like that anymore. They don't even believe in prayer cloths anymore. But in my day, all this stuff was the norm if you were Pentecostal.

You speak for no one here. Don’t promote witchcraft, play victim, then attack how Pentecostal, or not-Pentecostal we are.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yep, I also remember the casting out of demons in church and in homes. Those were some very intense things that were done, quite regularly, I should add. I cut my teeth with regards to spiritual warfare in those house calls and altar encounters. A lot of what people say today about spiritual warfare is so simplistic and wishy washy. Then they mock the very things I experienced first hand in those days. It's almost like they never had to fight a stronghold for a few hours, or even half the night. They don't believe in spirits manifesting or nothing like that anymore. They don't even believe in prayer cloths anymore. But in my day, all this stuff was the norm if you were Pentecostal.

So, are you still this extraordinary exorcist? In your day?

Aquila, what do you mean by "in your day?"

That's an odd thing to say? Are you a hasbeen, have you lost the glory you once had? Explain, what you mean by "back in your day?" You do know what that phrase means?

[Evang.Benincasa]

He was big on Holiness. You're right, he'd weep over the pulpit, "If you fall in love with Jesus, you'll live holy!!!" He inspired holiness. Yet, he was patient, kind, and gentle in person and in counseling. Being a vet, he understood PTSD (he called it shell-shock), and encouraged you too lean on God's grace and seek healing. He perfectly balanced his strictness with grace, love, and compassion.

The next couple pastors I had ruled with an iron fist. No patience, compassion, or inspiration. He warned us that the UPCI was becoming a white washed tomb.

No, he didn't tolerate the new age or occult things like ouji boards, tarot cards, crystals, etc. But he didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. He'd laugh when men would call him a warlock because he believed in and practiced the gifts. People either thought him a warlock or a prophet, though he'd never call himself anything but a man in love with Jesus. At our annual FEAST conferences they'd call him a prophet, but he'd dismiss it...he was truly humble. He firmly believed in the supernatural aspects of walking in the Holy Spirit, and demonstrated it almost daily.

I will be honest, I believe he was a prophet.

So, do you believe that if he was in your shoes he would of went your direction? What would he had done if he was in your shoes under those pastors? Would he be in the same place you are now?

[Evang.Benincasa]

He'd disagree with my new found agreement with Preterism,

Preterism? Yeah, I forgot you believe that now.

Oh, but everything else you do now would be hunky dory?

[Esaias]

So, are you still this extraordinary exorcist? In your day?

Aquila, what do you mean by "in your day?"

That's an odd thing to say? Are you a hasbeen, have you lost the glory you once had? Explain, what you mean by "back in your day?" You do know what that phrase means?

I thought on the other thread it came out that he had seen one exorcism, wasn't actually involved in it, just witnessed it, and then later supposedly got a list of signs of demonic possession from Hillary's private server or something, and that essentially constituted the whole of his "deliverance ministry" resume?

[Esaias]

This is very interesting:

My grandmother was raised in the hills of West Virginia. She taught me most of what I know about witches because it runs in our family. There are a number of close friends of that side of the family who are also witches. Here’s my understanding based on what I’ve personally seen and been told by them.

Many don’t realize that there are several types of witches, but only one is a true “witch”.

For example, you have people who are just eccentric and claim to be a witch, but are actually, well, nothing but searching souls trying to carve out their spiritual niche.

You also have what most today might call a “wiccan”. These are relatively harmless folk who frequent occult stores, buy occult books, practice learned and read occult practices, wear the crystals, often dress “earthy”, and honestly - they are relatively harmless. These folks are searching and just need Jesus. They call themselves witches and want to be seen as witches, but real witches often call them “dabblers”.

And lastly there are true “witches”. These individuals have it in their blood. It’s a family trait (or curse) that’s passed down through their generations. Often in childhood they begin to show signs that they are indeed “witches”. For example, when my grandmother was a young child she saw spirits and they often told her things that no one could know. She’d blurt it out or share it and embarrass people or shock people. Sometimes she’d play with her dolls (each representing a member of the family) and play out an event with the dolls, days before it happened in real life. She would also talk to trees and animals. She also regularly spoke to the dead. These children are often spotted by the older adults with the “gift” or who know of the gift. They refer to this as having the “anointing”. Much of their lingo sounds Christian on the surface but their spiritual power isn’t generated from Christ. They often engage in “folk magic”. For example my grandmother would cut a tomato and sit it on the kitchen window sill to ward off bad luck. Often these “folk magic” customs are personalized or localized. This type of witch can be of any “religion” but their power doesn’t originate from that religion. Many embrace wicca today, but most are “spiritualists”. These individuals find it natural to read the leaves on trees to issue proclamations regarding the future or the current status of people from vast distances. They may ask you to be still and quiet while they listen to the trees or the wind. There isn’t a “science” behind their “magic”. It’s not something you can learn from a book from the occult section of the book store. It’s also not something they “practice”, it’s more just “what they are”. Their magic is powerful, more powerful than that learned by wiccans from a book. In fact this kind of witch can be completely illiterate yet still powerful. These are the ones who have perfected the “evil eye” and other such things. Their witchcraft is based more in the deepest feelings of their soul and they don’t “dabble” with the power, they wield it. They interpret dreams, without needing the aid of any study or reference materials like “dream meaning encyclopedias”. These are the real deal. They are also far knowledgeable about the spirit world seeing that they have lived interacting with it naturally all their lives. Often they are more knowledgeable than “book worm Christians” who know only commentary or what their pastor tells them. In more recent times they’ve often billed themselves as “psychics”…but it is actually witchcraft. These often don’t “choose” to be witches, again, it’s just “what they are”. Only the power of God can set them free. And even after they are free, the trees whisper, and “impressions” from the spirit realm beckon. However, once converted, they make very powerful and dynamic Christians because of their extensive familiarity with the spirit world. Often fellow Christians who are just “book worm Christians” will never understand them or their understandings because what they know is learned from experience not the writings or surmising of theologians or commentators.


Aquila, your problems are bigger than you realize.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I thought on the other thread it came out that he had seen one exorcism, wasn't actually involved in it, just witnessed it, and then later supposedly got a list of signs of demonic possession from Hillary's private server or something, and that essentially constituted the whole of his "deliverance ministry" resume?

Aquila, do you have your typical crawfish gymnastics for us?

[Aquila]

You speak for no one here. Don’t promote witchcraft, play victim, then attack how Pentecostal, or not-Pentecostal we are.

I'm just saying that a lot of what you guys tear down used to be part and parcel with regards to Pentecostal beliefs.

[Aquila]

So, are you still this extraordinary exorcist? In your day?

Aquila, what do you mean by "in your day?"

That's an odd thing to say? Are you a hasbeen, have you lost the glory you once had? Explain, what you mean by "back in your day?" You do know what that phrase means?

You're right. Perhaps I should have said during my time in the UPCI. Times have changed. It seems like fewer people actually seek the ministry so many used to seek. Fewer people seek deliverance from evil spirits, prayer cloths for friends and family, etc. Prayer services are empty, all night prayer vigils for the sick are rare, many Pentecostal churches aren't having the tongues and interpretation they used to have. Things are changing.

[Aquila]

So, do you believe that if he was in your shoes he would of went your direction? What would he had done if he was in your shoes under those pastors? Would he be in the same place you are now?

I really can't say. All I am saying is that I still believe in the core teachings that he taught.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm just saying that a lot of what you guys tear down used to be part and parcel with regards to Pentecostal beliefs.

Sorry, but I didn't have or still have brothers who believed in some soaking in prayer, soaking in the word, soaking in fasting. Things you had posted to me in times past. You are one soggy dude.

[Amanah]

I really can't say. All I am saying is that I still believe in the core teachings that he taught.

It seems as if you have left your roots and are searching for spiritual experiences in new age practices.

Does your current house church share your beliefs? in what ways does the spirit manifest in your current assembly?

[Evang.Benincasa]

You're right. Perhaps I should have said during my time in the UPCI. Times have changed. It seems like fewer people actually seek the ministry so many used to seek. Fewer people seek deliverance from evil spirits, prayer cloths for friends and family, etc. Prayer services are empty, all night prayer vigils for the sick are rare, many Pentecostal churches aren't having the tongues and interpretation they used to have. Things are changing.

Aquia, tell us more about your exorcist prowess?

Also you mention that prayer services are empty? Vigils for the sick are rare? Tongues and interpretations are ceasing? Chris, you need to think, think good and long before you post. Because you are explaining your world view, not ours. You stand on the deck of an ecclesiological sinking ship.

[Aquila]

This is very interesting:

Aquila, your problems are bigger than you realize.

You do nothing but accuse and twist what people are intending to say. You talk about me as though I never received the baptism of the Holy Ghost or was baptized in the name of Jesus. Salvation shatters every family curse. I've been a Holy Spirit filled Apostolic Pentecostal for over 25 years now.

Perhaps you should have read my entire statement, and then you might understand the crux of our disagreement...

However, once converted, they make very powerful and dynamic Christians because of their extensive familiarity with the spirit world. Often fellow Christians who are just “book worm Christians” will never understand them or their understandings because what they know is learned from experience not the writings or surmising of theologians or commentators.

I think your misunderstanding and desire to tear down, accuse, and slander anything that doesn't agree with you is much bigger than you realize. Did Michael deserve the berating that he received on this thread over the style of music he liked? Some folks around here act like a pack of wild dogs, lying in wait, to bite and tear apart anyone who disagrees.

That's a rather big problem. If one has Jesus, they'll defend the truth. But they don't go around "attacking" people.

[Evang.Benincasa]

It seems as if you have left your roots and are searching for spiritual experiences in new age practices.

Does your current house church share your beliefs? in what ways does the spirit manifest in your current assembly?

Sadly, some are blown about by every wind of doctrine, fable to fantasy, then sadly to oblivion.

[Aquila]

Aquila, do you have your typical crawfish gymnastics for us?

I've seen a number of people oppressed by spirits who have sought help. And I've been involved in a number of those deliverances. However, there is only one specific instance wherein I can honestly say that I knew for certain that the individual was actually "possessed".

Based on my experience, full blown demonic possession is not as common as demonic oppression.

[Evang.Benincasa]

You do nothing but accuse and twist what people are intending to say. You talk about me as though I never received the baptism of the Holy Ghost or was baptized in the name of Jesus. Salvation shatters every family curse. I've been a Holy Spirit filled Apostolic Pentecostal for over 25 years now.

Perhaps you should have read my entire statement, and then you might understand the crux of our disagreement...



I think your misunderstanding and desire to tear down, accuse, and slander anything that doesn't agree with you is much bigger than you realize. Did Michael deserve the berating that he received on this thread over the style of music he liked? Some folks around here act like a pack of wild dogs, lying in wait, to bite and tear apart anyone who disagrees.

That's a rather big problem. If one has Jesus, they'll defend the truth. But they don't go around "attacking" people.

Chris, stop holding Mike up as a human shield. You get yourself in trouble, you post things to incite, and make yourself the lighting rod. We then end up losing site of the thread topic and start drowning in your posting gymnastics. Now your a Preterist? You no more believe in Preterism than I believe Sponge Bob Square Pants actually lives on the bottom of the ocean. Esaias doesn't twist your words or anyone else's words. He uses the information he is given and responds back to that information. You are an acrobatic crawfish, you skilled yourself in doing so, therefore the more honest posters no longer want to sit here and give you a pass. We already have Sean drowning us in his vomit, no need to have you top it all off with your month old cream cheese.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I've seen a number of people oppressed by spirits who have sought help. And I've been involved in a number of those deliverances. However, there is only one specific instance wherein I can honestly say that I knew for certain that the individual was actually "possessed".

Based on my experience, full blown demonic possession is not as common as demonic oppression.

Bro, this makes no sense with the previous post? You actually lead readers to believe you been involved personally in exorcisms. No you were only on the sidelines observing from behind the pews? Chris, Esaias pointed out old postings where you said you were only involved in one occasion? Chris, do you see what is happening here?

[Aquila]

It seems as if you have left your roots and are searching for spiritual experiences in new age practices.

Does your current house church share your beliefs? in what ways does the spirit manifest in your current assembly?

I've been Pentecostal for over 25 years. I haven't abandoned the core Pentecostal teachings I learned after I came to Christ. I'm not out here "searching" for anything. In fact, I was talking to a friend of mine at work about having a living faith compared to having dead religion. He explained that he was reading about a form of prayer that he had never heard of and how it has blessed him. A couple days later he hands me a book on contemplative prayer. I read through a portion of it (in all honesty, it was rather boring) and I decided to look up more information on Contemplative Prayer independently. That of course led me to articles on soaking prayer, because the two are quite similar. If I had to draw a distinction between the two, "contemplative prayer" (as it's called) is more "Catholic". Soaking prayer is more "Protestant". As I read up on soaking prayer I realized something... we Apostolic Pentecostals have been doing this for generations. We just never called it "soaking prayer". We'd just call it something informal conversationally, such as "waiting on the Lord", or "tarrying in His presence". When I gave the book back to my friend I told him, "I'm Pentecostal. We've been meditating on the truths of Scripture and soaking in prayer for generations. Do they do this in your church?" He said they didn't, it was something he was looking into on his own. I invited him to come to a prayer meeting if he wanted to see and experience how it is done among Pentecostals.

That's all.

The house church we're currently involved in is an open house church. There are different perspectives present and we welcome them in our conversation. But we don't tear one another down if we disagree. We have what some might call an opening prayer before our meal and that is pretty general. After the Lord's Supper we will sing and worship. We clap, raise our hands, speak our praises aloud. Now, it is a house, so we aren't screaming at the top of our lungs or running. But we pray and worship openly and freely. We speak in tongues. Sometimes the gifts of the Spirit might manifest through an interpretation, word of knowledge, or word of wisdom. It's essentially very much like a home Bible study with Spirit filled believers who are seeking more of Jesus and less institutional church.

[Aquila]

Aquia, tell us more about your exorcist prowess?

Also you mention that prayer services are empty? Vigils for the sick are rare? Tongues and interpretations are ceasing? Chris, you need to think, think good and long before you post. Because you are explaining your world view, not ours. You stand on the deck of an ecclesiological sinking ship.

I'm only sharing what I've seen locally here. If things are different for you in the churches in your area, rejoice.

[Aquila]

Chris, stop holding Mike up as a human shield. You get yourself in trouble, you post things to incite, and make yourself the lighting rod. We then end up losing site of the thread topic and start drowning in your posting gymnastics. Now your a Preterist? You no more believe in Preterism than I believe Sponge Bob Square Pants actually lives on the bottom of the ocean. Esaias doesn't twist your words or anyone else's words. He uses the information he is given and responds back to that information. You are an acrobatic crawfish, you skilled yourself in doing so, therefore the more honest posters no longer want to sit here and give you a pass. We already have Sean drowning us in his vomit, no need to have you top it all off with your month old cream cheese.

I'm not hiding behind Michael. I thought you guys weren't being fair to him and you guys really berated him over the style of music he liked. I think it was post 205 that caught my attention. So, I shared some thoughts. It wasn't until post 250 that I thew out some read meat. And, like predictable dogs, you guys turned to attack me. Well... at least you're not attacking Michael over something stupid any more.

You guys have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at me. I'm still standing.

I still feel like you're still purposefully trying to find fault with me instead of honestly trying to understand me as a brother. I've been so open with you, and yet you only use those things as weapons with which to attack. Sadly, you don't allow what I'm saying to help you understand me or my point of view. And sadly, the Admins never stop you from going so personal.

Would you like me to pray for you again Bro. EB?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm not hiding behind Michael. I thought you guys weren't being fair to him and you guys really berated him over the style of music he liked. I think it was post 205 that caught my attention. So, I shared some thoughts. It wasn't until post 250 that I thew out some read meat. And, like predictable dogs, you guys turned to attack me. Well... at least you're not attacking Michael over something stupid any more.

You guys have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at me. I'm still standing.

I still feel like you're still purposefully trying to find fault with me instead of honestly trying to understand me as a brother. Would you like me to pray for you again Bro. EB?

Aquila you are a pro, at duck and cover. You cut yourself, you bleed profusely, and then you point at others to say they cut you. Understand you as a brother, I understand you as a brother who is rolling full steam towards the abyss. Pray for me, why certainly, I need the prayer, and you need the practice. But, Chris, There are none so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. You are solidified in your own conceit.

[Amanah]

The house church we're currently involved in is an open house church. There are different perspectives present and we welcome them in our conversation. But we don't tear one another down if we disagree. We have what some might call an opening prayer before our meal and that is pretty general. After the Lord's Supper we will sing and worship. We clap, raise our hands, speak our praises aloud. Now, it is a house, so we aren't screaming at the top of our lungs or running. But we pray and worship openly and freely. We speak in tongues. Sometimes the gifts of the Spirit might manifest through an interpretation, word of knowledge, or word of wisdom. It's essentially very much like a home Bible study with Spirit filled believers who are seeking more of Jesus and less institutional church.

I see this as the problem, when we attempt to do church like we see in the book of Acts there aren't any fellowships that are authentically "book of acts" Apostolic unless we are able to lead like Elders Esaias and Benincasa, or join a fellowship led by someone who is actually Apostolic.

[Aquila]

Aquila you are a pro, at duck and cover.

One has to become good at duck and cover if others are constantly taking shots at them. Especially when quite a bit is basely accusations made by people taking things out of context for the sheer purpose and enjoyment of attacking.

You cut yourself, you bleed profusely, and then you point at others to say they cut you.

I just share my thoughts and experiences. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree. And, I have no reason to go personal when I do. However, certain individuals can't help but go personal because they can't bring themselves to simply agree to disagree and to respect the other individual regardless.

Understand you as a brother, I understand you as a brother who is rolling full steam towards the abyss. Pray for me, why certainly, I need the prayer, and you need the practice. But, Chris, There are none so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. You are solidified in your own conceit.

EB, sadly, the love of Christ isn't present in your posts to me. It's only you threatening Hell to someone you find disagreement with. Also, if you seriously cared about my soul, you'd spend far more time praying for me and befriending me than you do berating me, insulting me, and trying to run me off. So, I know everything you're saying is a bunch of malarkey.

Besides... I thought that this was a "discussion" forum? It isn't a pastoral support forum, pastoral counseling forum, or even a pastoral Q&A forum. I've never inquired of you to counsel, advise, or direct me. I've only wished to share my perspective of the various subjects being discussed here. For example, on this forum I've tried to stay on the topic, "worship". I've shared some thoughts on how I don't believe a brother should be berated for the kind of worship he prefers. I even mentioned something that I knew would be "red meat" for those who can't help but gnash against individuals they disagree with, just because I was tired of seeing them brow beat a brother over a music style he preferred and an idiom he chose to use. I knew they'd jump to conclusions before asking the important questions. The spirit they are of is all too predictable. And... it took the heat off Michael, who I felt didn't deserve the attack.

If you'd like to give pastoral advice, offer pastoral counsel, or participate in a pastoral Q&A, I'm sure I can find a link to such a forum for you, because you're way out of line when you go down this road. I know you don't see it this way, people such as yourself never do, but such is a form of spiritual abuse. You're not my pastor. Share your thoughts on the topics at hand. Share your agreement or disagreement with my thoughts. If I want your pastoral support, admonition, counsel, or advice, I'll ask it. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

I imagine it like this. Let's say that this forum is a coffee shop. Many people are seated, having coffee, and various tables are discussing various topics. I join a table and listen. I decide to contribute to the conversation by sharing my thoughts, experiences, opinions, or whatever. Then suddenly, there you are, standing up and screaming at me about how I'm going to Hell, how I'm this and how I'm that. I ask you to settle down and relax, we're all just people sharing our opinions. But you just keep interrupting the flow of the conversation trying to counsel me instead of staying on topic. Other people begin leaving the table because as you shout at me, I'm trying to ask you to just be respectful and stick to the topic. A couple of your buddies sit there popping insults and calling names. They are goofily smiling and snickering, enjoying the opportunity to berate another. You give each other high fives and inside jokes along with the insults. Then, between the insults, you try to warn me of Hell and how I need to part my hair like yours or else. In the past, I've decided to changed tables. But, you find your way to that table and start pounding on the table and demanding I part my hair like yours or else. Then you even drag disagreements from other unrelated topics to the table until you've ruined the conversation yet again.

EB... I'm sure you don't see it. But you're being spiritually abusive. If you're not being spiritually abusive... cease trying to be my pastor. This is only a discussion forum. You don't have to agree with me. I don't expect everyone to agree all the time. But I would appreciate it if we had enough Holy Ghost to respect one another as individuals even though we have some disagreements. If I need or want YOUR spiritual counsel, advice, or direction... I'll ask. Until then, you're out of line. And... I really wish the admins would do something to help you understand that this a forum that has always supported free and open discussion. It isn't a pastoral forum. And unsolicited pastoring is crass and tasteless.

[Aquila]

I see this as the problem, when we attempt to do church like we see in the book of Acts there aren't any fellowships that are authentically "book of acts" Apostolic unless we are able to lead like Elders Esaias and Benincasa, or join a fellowship led by someone who is actually Apostolic.

Finding an authentic church that is "Apostolic" can be hard... but finding an authentic "Apostolic" house church (book of Acts church) can be extremely difficult.

[Evang.Benincasa]

One has to become good at duck and cover if others are constantly taking shots at them. Especially when quite a bit is basely accusations made by people taking things out of context for the sheer purpose and enjoyment of attacking.



I just share my thoughts and experiences. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree. And, I have no reason to go personal when I do. However, certain individuals can't help but go personal because they can't bring themselves to simply agree to disagree and to respect the other individual regardless.



EB, sadly, the love of Christ isn't present in your posts to me. It's only you threatening Hell to someone you find disagreement with. Also, if you seriously cared about my soul, you'd spend far more time praying for me and befriending me than you do berating me, insulting me, and trying to run me off. So, I know everything you're saying is a bunch of malarkey.

Besides... I thought that this was a "discussion" forum? It isn't a pastoral support forum, pastoral counseling forum, or even a pastoral Q&A forum. I've never inquired of you to counsel, advise, or direct me. I've only wished to share my perspective of the various subjects being discussed here. For example, on this forum I've tried to stay on the topic, "worship". I've shared some thoughts on how I don't believe a brother should be berated for the kind of worship he prefers. I even mentioned something that I knew would be "red meat" for those who can't help but gnash against individuals they disagree with, just because I was tired of seeing them brow beat a brother over a music style he preferred and an idiom he chose to use. I knew they'd jump to conclusions before asking the important questions. The spirit they are of is all too predictable. And... it took the heat off Michael, who I felt didn't deserve the attack.

If you'd like to give pastoral advice, offer pastoral counsel, or participate in a pastoral Q&A, I'm sure I can find a link to such a forum for you, because you're way out of line when you go down this road. I know you don't see it this way, people such as yourself never do, but such is a form of spiritual abuse. You're not my pastor. Share your thoughts on the topics at hand. Share your agreement or disagreement with my thoughts. If I want your pastoral support, admonition, counsel, or advice, I'll ask it. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

I imagine it like this. Let's say that this forum is a coffee shop. Many people are seated, having coffee, and various tables are discussing various topics. I join a table and listen. I decide to contribute to the conversation by sharing my thoughts, experiences, opinions, or whatever. Then suddenly, there you are, standing up and screaming at me about how I'm going to Hell, how I'm this and how I'm that. I ask you to settle down and relax, we're all just people sharing our opinions. But you just keep interrupting the flow of the conversation trying to counsel me instead of staying on topic. Other people begin leaving the table because as you shout at me, I'm trying to ask you to just be respectful and stick to the topic. A couple of your buddies sit there popping insults and calling names. They are goofily smiling and snickering, enjoying the opportunity to berate another. You give each other high fives and inside jokes along with the insults. Then, between the insults, you try to warn me of Hell and how I need to part my hair like yours or else. In the past, I've decided to changed tables. But, you find your way to that table and start pounding on the table and demanding I part my hair like yours or else. Then you even drag disagreements from other unrelated topics to the table until you've ruined the conversation yet again.

EB... I'm sure you don't see it. But you're being spiritually abusive. If you're not being spiritually abusive... cease trying to be my pastor. This is only a discussion forum. You don't have to agree with me. I don't expect everyone to agree all the time. But I would appreciate it if we had enough Holy Ghost to respect one another as individuals even though we have some disagreements. If I need or want YOUR spiritual counsel, advice, or direction... I'll ask. Until then, you're out of line. And... I really wish the admins would do something to help you understand that this a forum that has always supported free and open discussion. It isn't a pastoral forum. And unsolicited pastoring is crass and tasteless.

Chris, pastor you? Another deflection? No, no pastoring you, no warm foot rubs, or me telling you that everything will be alright in your present condition. Houston, Esaias, are they pastoring you when they tell you the truth? Like I said to Esaias, he says in one sentence what takes me an entire paragraph. Ndavid? Is he trying to pastor you? No, no one is, just telling you how the cow ate the cabbage. You again, say things to incite, you even know it when you post it. So you make yourself the lighting rod. How about this, work through it, and proceed forward. Place me on ignore, and never read anything I post about your posts.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I see this as the problem, when we attempt to do church like we see in the book of Acts there aren't any fellowships that are authentically "book of acts" Apostolic unless we are able to lead like Elders Esaias and Benincasa, or join a fellowship led by someone who is actually Apostolic.

He won’t do that because what he sees as a Book of Acts Church, is soaking wet.
He needs to return to his roots, and find someone his FAVORITE pastor would of approved.

[Aquila]

Chris, pastor you? Another deflection? No, no pastoring you, no warm foot rubs, or me telling you that everything will be alright in your present condition. Houston, Esaias, are they pastoring you when they tell you the truth? Like I said to Esaias, he says in one sentence what takes me an entire paragraph. Ndavid? Is he trying to pastor you? No, no one is, just telling you how the cow ate the cabbage. You again, say things to incite, you even know it when you post it. So you make yourself the lighting rod. How about this, work through it, and proceed forward. Place me on ignore, and never read anything I post about your posts.

Okay, so where do I start? How do I get you guys off my back so that we can have some civil discussions around here? What is it that you'd like me to do?

[Esaias]

Aquila, nobody was attacking MTD because he likes a certain style of music. I challenged him on his equating music with spirituality of worship. I and others also pointed out the very real problems with IHOPs theology and practices. Then you came along and derailed the whole conversation into a personal thing. Always about YOU PERSONALLY.

You always do this. You're a typical "social justice warrior" communist beta cuck soyboy. Triggered by any disagreement with your ideas as if you yourself were being shipped to the gas ovens.

But notice what's behind all you silly girly boy antics: a distraction from the subject and the question "what does THE BIBLE say?" Like I said, your problems are bigger than you realize. And, no, AFF isn't going to solve them.

As for brother Michael, believe me, he doesn't need you to play white knight. He and I BOTH have a no-holds-barred view of certain things, we have known each other longer than YOU'VE been around these parts, and we get along just fine.

You need to "contemplate" why your posts and threads seem "centered" on the Outer Limits, psychism, witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc instead of THE WORD.

As Houston said, dont even play off like you're gonna tell us what "old time Pentecost" is about. You left that, remember? You can't handle "old time Pentecost".

[Aquila]

You always do this. You're a typical "social justice warrior" communist beta cuck soyboy. Triggered by any disagreement with your ideas as if you yourself were being shipped to the gas ovens.

Spoken like Jesus Himself?

[Aquila]

Aquila, nobody was attacking MTD because he likes a certain style of music. I challenged him on his equating music with spirituality of worship.

In what post did Michael do that? And what should Michael have said to gain your "approval" or "agreement"?

I and others also pointed out the very real problems with IHOPs theology and practices.

Is Michael a member of the, International House of Pancakes?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Aquila, nobody was attacking MTD because he likes a certain style of music. I challenged him on his equating music with spirituality of worship. I and others also pointed out the very real problems with IHOPs theology and practices. Then you came along and derailed the whole conversation into a personal thing. Always about YOU PERSONALLY.

You always do this. You're a typical "social justice warrior" communist beta cuck soyboy. Triggered by any disagreement with your ideas as if you yourself were being shipped to the gas ovens.

But notice what's behind all you silly girly boy antics: a distraction from the subject and the question "what does THE BIBLE say?" Like I said, your problems are bigger than you realize. And, no, AFF isn't going to solve them.

As for brother Michael, believe me, he doesn't need you to play white knight. He and I BOTH have a no-holds-barred view of certain things, we have known each other longer than YOU'VE been around these parts, and we get along just fine.

You need to "contemplate" why your posts and threads seem "centered" on the Outer Limits, psychism, witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc instead of THE WORD.

As Houston said, dont even play off like you're gonna tell us what "old time Pentecost" is about. You left that, remember? You can't handle "old time Pentecost".

Amen :highfive

[Aquila]

Interesting... Michael offers some insight to his past and personal feelings...

If worship had been like this when I was a young person I would have begged my folks to take me to Church.

Jon Thurlo ONE THING 2017.



Personally, I'd have asked why Michael felt that way. But Michael's post solicited this:

An alt-rock concert? Van Halen put on a better show by far. And Judas Priest was even better than them.

People have substituted entertainment for worship, lighting and "atmospherics" for the presence of God, and feelings for the power of God. Thus, here we are, 21st century religion, Bread and Circus Worship "Experiences" to suit every taste and want, and a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord.

Michael offers his opinion, revealing that he obviously enjoys the style of the music (which honestly, I'm not that big on personally):

I know of no more glorious and heavenly worship. I doubt this side of heaven it will be found.

And so how much time did you watch this before pronouncing your judgment? Not much would be my guess.

And Esaias responds

I don't get into the deeply emotional forms of worship, to me it's much like mood music. I'm often concerned that people get too wrapped up in the effect of the music than they do actually experiencing Jesus in a genuine act of worship.

Oh... wait... I'm mistaken. Esaias actually responded:

Are you serious? The guy is deep in bed with heretics and charlatans, and somehow there's nothing more glorious this side of heaven? Its mood music and emotionalism, Jesus is your boyfriend effeminate soft-rock concert standard TBN type stuff.

:smack

Can you feel the love of Jesus emanating from Esaias' posts? I sure can. :heeheehee

[Aquila]

And for the record... I'd rather listen to a three year old bang pots and pans together in the name of Jesus than even imply that the likes of Van Halen or Judas Priest was better to listen to.

[Aquila]

I'm far more interested in what forms of worship we engage in and why. I'm not at all interested in hearing someone's style or methods of worship be called, "thumb-sucking, red diaper-doper baby, pseudo-worship for spiritual infants", or something like that.

How do you guys string together those insulting terms and phrases that you say about things and people you don't like? Do you guys take a class to learn how to do that? Or can you recommend a book title? Or is it just a natural talent you've dedicated specifically to the glory of the Lord? Do you sit around giving each other "high-fives" based on the length of the statement or irony of the related content?

[n david]

And for the record... I'd rather listen to a three year old bang pots and pans together in the name of Jesus than even imply that the likes of Van Halen or Judas Priest was better to listen to.
Again you're not being honest with what was posted.

Read the quote again: """An alt-rock concert? Van Halen put on a better show by far. And Judas Priest was even better than them."""

He didn't say they were better to listen to, he said they put on a better show.

[Aquila]

Again you're not being honest with what was posted.

Read the quote again: """An alt-rock concert? Van Halen put on a better show by far. And Judas Priest was even better than them."""

He didn't say they were better to listen to, he said they put on a better show.

Since they are music groups, wouldn't a "better show" include the production of better music? And isn't better music defined as being music that better suits the listener's ear? Or is the statement strictly talking about the stage design, pyro-technics, and concert lights?

[n david]

Since they are music groups, wouldn't a "better show" include the production of better music? And isn't better music defined as being music that better suits the listener's ear? Or is the statement strictly talking about the stage design, pyro-technics, and concert lights?
What followed in that post should answer your question:

""People have substituted entertainment for worship, lighting and "atmospherics" for the presence of God, and feelings for the power of God.""

[Aquila]

Has anyone here listened to Selah's Greatest Hymns album? Believe it or not, that's still my personal favorite to worship to around the house. lol

*Disclaimer. Indications of liking any album, song, or track produced by Selah doesn't indicate a knowledge of, or agreement with, any theological position held, or implied, by Selah or any label, advertiser, distributor, associated fan base, or house of worship associated with Selah or any member therein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NChRAD1-z_s&list=PLbkud7iK_0YVCwoX2dUWCJgGuzP_amkgA

[Aquila]

What followed in that post should answer your question:

""People have substituted entertainment for worship, lighting and "atmospherics" for the presence of God, and feelings for the power of God.""

Ah, got it. :thumbsup

Personally, I think IHOP has more tasteful stage management than Van Halen or Judas Priest. But that's just me.

[houston]

Let’s all join hands and sing Oceans.

[Aquila]

Let’s all join hands and sing Oceans.

We must stop glorifying division. It's almost as though the insidious poison of political debate and division so popular in the media has invaded the body of Christ. It is worldly and carnal. God Himself challenges us that we seek to live as brethren who cherish our unity in the bonds of love through Holy Spirit, even if our opinions regarding days, meats, etc. might differ.

Psalm 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Oceans? I'm not familiar with the song. You lead off, I'll follow.

[Evang.Benincasa]

We must stop glorifying division. It's almost like the insidious poison of political difference so popular in the media has invaded the body of Christ. God Himself challenges us that we seek to live as brethren who cherish our unity in the Holy Spirit, even if our opinions regarding days, meats, etc. differ.

Psalm 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Oceans? I'm not familiar with the song. You lead off, I'll follow.

Chris, you are so entangled within churcanity’s ashram. Therefore you keep continuing to entice us with a paradegim which isn’t appealing. The Apostle Paul didn’t advocate agree to disagree. The Apostle’s writings are born to remove schisms and heresies. You quote the Psalm as if we have minor disagreements. This is not the case. Unity in the verse isn’t talking about us all holding hands and skipping down through a field of poppies towards the Emerald City. No the unity is in us striving to find truth. That’s it.

[Aquila]

Chris, you are so entangled within churcanity’s ashram. Therefore you keep continuing to entice us with a paradegim which isn’t appealing. The Apostle Paul didn’t advocate agree to disagree. The Apostle’s writings are born to remove schisms and heresies. You quote the Psalm as if we have minor disagreements. This is not the case. Unity in the verse isn’t talking about us all holding hands and skipping down through a field of poppies towards the Emerald City. No the unity is in us striving to find truth. That’s it.

I think our disagreements are minor. I also think that they can be better understood by all sides through honest Christian dialogue.

What specific differences do we hold concerning worship that you feel are so big that we should spend our time berating one another?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think our disagreements are minor. I also think that they can be better understood by all sides through honest Christian dialogue.

What specific differences do we hold concerning worship that you feel are so big that we should spend our time berating one another?

Chris, you haven't been in religion for a week. You been in it for a long time. The old saying goes like this, "never discuss politics or religion in polite company." It is true, but I would once again ask you to show me where Paul or any other apostle admonished us to better understand all sides through religious dialogue. The Rabbis like the gurus they truly are, arguing every point of the law, and never come to a conclusion. Here we lay it all out, and hope we don't get our feelings hurt. All we ask is that all sides be honest. But if you are looking for ecclesiastical lonely walks on the beach, then I suggest you find other posters who are more inclined to that spirit. Then place me on ignore.

[Aquila]

Chris, you haven't been in religion for a week. You been in it for a long time. The old saying goes like this, "never discuss politics or religion in polite company." It is true, but I would once again ask you to show me where Paul or any other apostle admonished us to better understand all sides through religious dialogue. The Rabbis like the gurus they truly are, arguing every point of the law, and never come to a conclusion. Here we lay it all out, and hope we don't get our feelings hurt. All we ask is that all sides be honest. But if you are looking for ecclesiastical lonely walks on the beach, then I suggest you find other posters who are more inclined to that spirit. Then place me on ignore.

Ah, the honest truth is... you can't find any differences significant enough to warrant berating one another. And so, why do we do it? Such isn't of Christ. It is of the flesh.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Ah, the honest truth is... you can't find any differences significant enough to warrant berating one another.

Chris, I already explained myself, but you aren't honest. You do things like the above, and then cry wee wee wee all the way home, when you get caught. Chris, you post things how can we make it better, what do you need to do, blah, blah, blah. Guess what, place me on ignore. That's what you need to do. You no more care about Christianity in any form. Like I have said in the past, we are your ants under your magnifying glass. You love to place it over us, and watch us burn. You mainly want to uproot new converts and struggling souls, but if you can sink one of us, then a job well done. You are feet that scurry to evil. Again, Esaias can say in one line what takes me a paragraph to say. He is the better man.

[Aquila]

Chris, I already explained myself, but you aren't honest. You do things like the above, and then cry wee wee wee all the way home, when you get caught. Chris, you post things how can we make it better, what do you need to do, blah, blah, blah. Guess what, place me on ignore. That's what you need to do. You no more care about Christianity in any form. Like I have said in the past, we are your ants under your magnifying glass. You love to place it over us, and watch us burn. You mainly want to uproot new converts and struggling souls, but if you can sink one of us, then a job well done. You are feet that scurry to evil. Again, Esaias can say in one line what takes me a paragraph to say. He is the better man.

Wow. I'm just one guy.

Can you explain or elaborate on what you mean by me having you guys under my magnifying glass like ants? And how do I place it over you and make you burn?

Well, you keep calling me to "repent", get right, and claim that I'm on my way to Hell. Saying I don't care anything about Christianity. Telling me I don't know Jesus. It could take quite a bit of space to list the rather insulting condemnations you've cast at me. But you've yet to specify what it is exactly that I must do.

I've was born again of the water and of the Spirit over 25 years ago. Do I have to go through that again? Must you witness it or baptize me yourself to make it effectual? Do I have to agree with you on all theological points and subjects? Or just some points? If so, what points are those? Must I vote Republican all the time? Must I join some organization and toe the line? Do I have to wear my hair like yours? What specifically are you expecting from me?

You're being rather vague.

I have one last question. In spite of our disagreements, have I ever said to you that you didn't know Jesus or that you were going to Hell?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I have one last question. In spite of our disagreements, have I ever said to you that you didn't know Jesus or that you were going to Hell?

Chris, mocking me getting burned on a lit stove by a drunken stepparent?
Chris, you are a phony, place me on ignore. You want to play Christian, robed in saffron, soaked in peity? Have at it, just don’t blow your smoke towards me, because I’ll tell you the truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Soaking Worship-Misty Edwards

ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK! BEWARE SOME....APOSTOLICS HAVE RATED THIS MUSIC WITH AN R!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iurm0IgMNQU

[Evang.Benincasa]

She is a soaker?

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryvPv3e4Jwo

Now this is more like it! :happydance

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom,

Yeah I'm glad you put up a representation of "Apostolic" contrasting "Soaking" worship.

Some may think one seems more spiritual than the other. Some may like both. Some may like neither.

[Esaias]

Soaking Worship-Misty Edwards

ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK! BEWARE SOME....APOSTOLICS HAVE RATED THIS MUSIC WITH AN R!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iurm0IgMNQU

I watched most of it. 9:35 shows an interesting moment. :heeheehee

All I'm going to say is I do not think most of those people have any idea what worship is. And no, it has nothing to do with the particular style of music, at all.

[Michael The Disciple]

I watched most of it. 9:35 shows an interesting moment. :heeheehee

All I'm going to say is I do not think most of those people have any idea what worship is. And no, it has nothing to do with the particular style of music, at all.

What a guy working the sound system stood up?

Well you have your opinion.

What pray tell do you think of the one Dom posted? Does it seem more spiritual to you? Did you notice anything a bit odd about it?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What a guy working the sound system stood up?

Well you have your opinion.

What pray tell do you think of the one Dom posted? Does it seem more spiritual to you? Did you notice anything a bit odd about it?

Well, Mike, Misty Edwards isn't my cup of tea.

I love the Urshans especially when they sing together, and I enjoy that kind of music. Please don't take this wrong, but everyone in Misty's audience looked like they needed a pillow. But, when the Bishop and Sister Urshan are singing I want to sing, shout, and dance about. :happydance

[Michael The Disciple]

Well, Mike, Misty Edwards isn't my cup of tea.

I love the Urshans especially when they sing together, and I enjoy that kind of music. Please don't take this wrong, but everyone in Misty's audience looked like they needed a pillow. But, when the Bishop and Sister Urshan are singing I want to sing, shout, and dance about. :happydance

A pillow? Maybe thats why its called "soaking worship"? It is being absorbed into the spirit.

Yet if you go back through this thread about Charismatic worship we see they were accused of pushing people down. Walking around acting like dogs? Chasing around after gold dust?

I must ask did you see any of that?

[Michael The Disciple]

Well, Mike, Misty Edwards isn't my cup of tea.

I love the Urshans especially when they sing together, and I enjoy that kind of music. Please don't take this wrong, but everyone in Misty's audience looked like they needed a pillow. But, when the Bishop and Sister Urshan are singing I want to sing, shout, and dance about. :happydance

And yet some think if Charismatics sing, shout, and dance around it would be all in the flesh!

[Michael The Disciple]

I watched most of it. 9:35 shows an interesting moment. :heeheehee

All I'm going to say is I do not think most of those people have any idea what worship is. And no, it has nothing to do with the particular style of music, at all.

You can tell just by looking? So when you watch the video by Dom does that same discernment work? By looking at the singers can you judge whether they be of God?

[houston]

DB,

I viewed a few vids more. This is all your fault. This song (not the one you shared) keeps playing. Over and over again.

[Michael The Disciple]

DB,

I viewed a few vids more. This is all your fault. This song keeps playing. Over and over again.

:highfive

[houston]

:highfive

I don’t think so

[Evang.Benincasa]

And yet some think if Charismatics sing, shout, and dance around it would be all in the flesh!

Believe me, I have seen people do the boot scootin boogie around and almost break their necks. But there was an old brother in Mountain View Arkansas at Brother Frank Steven's church who would shout! He would jump up on the backs of the pews run straight down them, spin around and run back with his hands raised and eyes closed. he did this all in slick cowboy boots. A sister in our home church would spin eyes closed around the edge of the sanctuary. I have seen a lot of totally flipped out and wrong stuff, but I have seen the unexplainable. I have been with brothers all day and all night in a prayer room where the Holy Ghost was thicker than Karo syrup on a fan belt. There was no flesh in that.

[Esaias]

What a guy working the sound system stood up?

Well you have your opinion.

What pray tell do you think of the one Dom posted? Does it seem more spiritual to you? Did you notice anything a bit odd about it?

Once again, you think worship = music. Half of the people there weren't soaking, they were bored out of their minds and looked as if they wandered into the wrong room at university.

Watch this video. Especially from around the 19 minute mark. If you equate worship with "music I like" then you will completely miss what's going on here, but there's more genuine worship in the first ten minutes of this video than in anything I've seen from IHOP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjcmPM_8hk

[Michael The Disciple]

I don’t think so

I have been singing, humming, and whistling it myself. Loving Jesus!

[Evang.Benincasa]

DB,

I viewed a few vids more. This is all your fault. This song (not the one you shared) keeps playing. Over and over again.

:yahoo

[Esaias]

You can tell just by looking? So when you watch the video by Dom does that same discernment work? By looking at the singers can you judge whether they be of God?

Good grief, brother I know you can't be this dense. I am not looking at the singers at all except haphazardly. I am looking at the "worshippers". Half of them AREN'T WORSHIPPING AT ALL. Some are trying to worship, and that's great. But "soaking"? Please, brother, you have got to snap out of this crazy idea that reduces worship to just "good music"!!!!

Where's the emoticon that has me slapping some sense into you? Oh, here... :smack

[Esaias]

DB,

I viewed a few vids more. This is all your fault. This song (not the one you shared) keeps playing. Over and over again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jt5r1ypcKo

[houston]

:yahoo

What’s this feeling that I feel... it’s Pentecost.. it’s Pentecost...



...it hasn’t lost its power, it still shakes the gates of Hell

[Esaias]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ito9qSh_gI

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jt5r1ypcKo

:yahoo

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoh6Y87h5uQ&ab_channel=havinastroke

[Michael The Disciple]

Once again, you think worship = music. Half of the people there weren't soaking, they were bored out of their minds and looked as if they wandered into the wrong room at university.

Watch this video. Especially from around the 19 minute mark. If you equate worship with "music I like" then you will completely miss what's going on here, but there's more genuine worship in the first ten minutes of this video than in anything I've seen from IHOP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjcmPM_8hk

Can you show a quote from me where I say worship is music I like? Get real. There is music I prefer when I am worshiping with music but I dont believe I have EVER said worship is just music or just music I like.

You have posted a lot of trite when it comes to music of both the Jesus Movement and Charismatic movement. As if what a few people have said that you use as evidence represented whole movements of people.

I will have to just understand you were not there so all you can do is take someones word for things that may have represented only a small part of these groups.

As far as the video I like it. If that Church were in my town I would probably attend. Is it the one that has come into Oneness and baptism in Jesus name? At the 14 min mark they were singing a nice Charismatic song from "Petra Praise"!

And again what you said about the people at IHOP looking bored could be said about some of the people there. Even saw one lady yawning. YIKES! Are we supposed to judge a whole group of people by the way they looked at a certain moment of there lives?

[Esaias]

Can you show a quote from me where I say worship is music I like? Get real. There is music I prefer when I am worshiping with music but I dont believe I have EVER said worship is just music or just music I like.

You have posted a lot of trite when it comes to music of both the Jesus Movement and Charismatic movement. As if what a few people have said that you use as evidence represented whole movements of people.

I will have to just understand you were not there so all you can do is take someones word for things that may have represented only a small part of these groups.

As far as the video I like it. If that Church were in my town I would probably attend. Is it the one that has come into Oneness and baptism in Jesus name?

And again what you said about the people at IHOP looking bored could be said about some of the people there. Even saw one lady yawning. YIKES! Are we supposed to judge a whole group of people by the way they looked at a certain moment of there lives?

Okay, I'm going to drop it.

I hope you find some brethren you can worship with.

[Michael The Disciple]

:yahoo

If I were there I would not stand afar off judging them but would praise the Lord with them. Around the Dayton Ohio area where Im from there were plenty of Pentecostal and some Baptists that praised the Lord this way.

[Esaias]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoh6Y87h5uQ&ab_channel=havinastroke

That's what they call SANCTIFIED praise!

:bliss

[houston]

I’ll look at them when I get home.

[Michael The Disciple]

Okay, I'm going to drop it.

I hope you find some brethren you can worship with.

Peace and love.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If I were there I would not stand afar off judging them but would praise the Lord with them. Around the Dayton Ohio area where Im from there were plenty of Pentecostal and some Baptists that praised the Lord this way.

I know you would shout along with them! :yahoo

[Evang.Benincasa]

That's what they call SANCTIFIED praise!

:bliss

I love that song, God He rode in a Windstorm! :yahoo