Apostoic worship??

[JoeBandy]

I watched a few clips from NAYC17 and noticed several tweets relating to the crowds actions as true Apostolic worship. I totally disagree. Although I am and was raised UPC I never have believed in the typical run, dance, swing from the ceiling fan type worship. Is there a scripture reference in the NT that shows the apostles doing this type worship? I have a few scriptures I will post later that I believe is against this type.

[aegsm76]

JB - so what are YOUR beliefs now.
Most of your posts that I have seen, seem to be questioning beliefs and practices that are a part of the UPC.
I admit I have not read all of your posts, so maybe that is not correct, but I see you taking shots at the UPC, regularly.
But, as I said, what are your beliefs?
Also, do you still attend a UPC church?

[JoeBandy]

JB - so what are YOUR beliefs now.
Most of your posts that I have seen, seem to be questioning beliefs and practices that are a part of the UPC.
I admit I have not read all of your posts, so maybe that is not correct, but I see you taking shots at the UPC, regularly.
But, as I said, what are your beliefs?
Also, do you still attend a UPC church?

I do attend UPC. And my post are not meant to be "shots" like you are taking it. I am almost 50 and was raised in UPC. My grandfather and his brother were long time pastors in the LA district. I have an uncle and a cousin who still pastor a church. I just have never believed in the "worship" in traditional UPC churches. I don't believe in the "wildness". Everywhere in scripture I read when man is contact with God its face down and prone.

[aegsm76]

I do attend UPC. And my post are not meant to be "shots" like you are taking it. I am almost 50 and was raised in UPC. My grandfather and his brother were long time pastors in the LA district. I have an uncle and a cousin who still pastor a church. I just have never believed in the "worship" in traditional UPC churches. I don't believe in the "wildness". Everywhere in scripture I read when man is contact with God its face down and prone.

Thanks, JB. I do not mean to take any "shots" at you.
I just do not know you as well as I do others here and that had been my impression.
Now let's get back to the original topic!

[Amanah]

Psalm 150


1 Praise the Lord.[a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.


Praise the Lord.

[Amanah]

Psalm 47King James Version (KJV)

47 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2 For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
4 He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.
5 God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.
6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.

[Amanah]

2 Samuel 6King James Version (KJV)
6 Again, David gathered together all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand.
2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.
4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.
5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
8 And David was displeased, because the Lord had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day.
9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
10 So David would not remove the ark of the Lord unto him into the city of David: but David carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite.
11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.
12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
13 And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the Lord had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.
14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart.
17 And they brought in the ark of the Lord, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace Offerings before the Lord.
18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts.
19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.
20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the Lord, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel: therefore will I play before the Lord.
22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

[JoeBandy]

Thanks Amanah, but still no NT Apostolic reference.

[Amanah]

Luke 19King James Version (KJV)

19 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,
48 And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

[Amanah]

Thanks Amanah, but still no NT Apostolic reference.

Apostolics don't do away with OT worship, they fulfill it.

[consapente89]

I believe in demonstrative worship. Running the aisles, dancing, jumping, shouting, rolling on the floor...everything that has been predominate in Apostolic circles.


HOWEVER!

Many in Pentecostal circles have made an idol out of music and have become "worshippers of the beat" rather than worshippers of God. In my humble opinion, we should be spending more time on our faces in deep travailing prayer than we should blasting loud music through the sanctuary. I would love to see a shift in Pentecost where prayer and preaching take the front seat and music takes a back seat. I believe this is the Apostolic pattern.

[JoeBandy]

Apostolics don't do away with OT worship, they fulfill it.

Still no scriptural reference to anything resembling the normal wildness of typical Sunday night at the local UPC.

[consapente89]

Apostolics don't do away with OT worship, they fulfill it.

Amen

[JoeBandy]

I believe in demonstrative worship. Running the aisles, dancing, jumping, shouting, rolling on the floor...everything that has been predominate in Apostolic circles.


HOWEVER!

Many in Pentecostal circles have made an idol out of music and have become "worshippers of the beat" rather than worshippers of God. In my humble opinion, we should be spending more time on our faces in deep travailing prayer than we should blasting loud music through the sanctuary. I would love to see a shift in Pentecost where prayer and preaching take the front seat and music takes a back seat. I believe this is the Apostolic pattern.

You see I believe the version of demonstrative worship you refer to is what Col 2:23 is about. Can you give me one instance of this kind of praise n the NT?

[consapente89]

I've not been around the UPC in years....is pre-service prayer still emphasized??

[Amanah]

I believe in hitting the prayer room with the travailing prayer of faith as consapente said, and then entering his gates with worship and praise. It's tried and proven.

[houston]

There is a young man who used to post here by the name of Peyton Gurley. He attended one of the UPCI bible colleges. One time he had posted all of the Hebrew words in the OT that have to do with worship, dance, praise, etc. and their meanings. One of the words (if I recall) means to twirl about as if under the control of a force. Don't quote me.

I tried looking for it here and nothing came up. Then I remembered that it may have been posted on the spin off forum (LOL), synadelfos.

I searched using google and this is the only thing remotely close to what he posted.

http://www.chaimbentorah.com/2015/05/word-study-praising-in-dance-יהלל-במחול/

[Amanah]

I've not been around the UPC in years....is pre-service prayer still emphasized??

I can't speak for the UPC, but I always have pre service prayer.

[Esaias]

I watched a few clips from NAYC17 and noticed several tweets relating to the crowds actions as true Apostolic worship. I totally disagree. Although I am and was raised UPC I never have believed in the typical run, dance, swing from the ceiling fan type worship. Is there a scripture reference in the NT that shows the apostles doing this type worship? I have a few scriptures I will post later that I believe is against this type.

Do you go face down and still as a corpse every Sunday?

[Amanah]

You see I believe the version of demonstrative worship you refer to is what Col 2:23 is about. Can you give me one instance of this kind of praise n the NT?

In Colossians 2:20-23, Paul shows that asceticism is how not to become godly. The false teachers in Colossae had a system of rules which they imposed on their followers. They said, “If you keep these rules, you will have victory over fleshly desires.” They took some of the Old Testament regulations concerning ceremonial cleanliness and diet and added to them, much as the Pharisees had done. Paul admits (Col. 2:23) that these rules had “the appearance of wisdom,” but, he adds, they “are of no value against fleshly indulgence.” Rather, Paul argues that …

Godliness is not achieved through asceticism but through our identification with Christ.
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-14-how-not-be-godly-colossians-220-23

[n david]

Everywhere in scripture I read when man is contact with God its face down and prone.
“But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and every one’s fetters were unfastened.”

Doubtful they were face down and prone while wearing shackles in jail.

“…but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another with Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.”

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as you teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.”

“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.”

"But ye shall only do thus face down and prone," says no scripture ever.

[MawMaw]

Luke 19:40 King James Version (KJV)

40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.



And I tell you respectfully, Mr Bandy,
ain't no rock gonna cry out in my place!!! :shockamoo

[Esaias]

Do you go face down and still as a corpse every Sunday?

???

[houston]

Roflol!

[Esaias]

Still no scriptural reference to anything resembling the normal wildness of typical Sunday night at the local UPC.

If you think typical UPC services are "wild" then I can only say you need to get out more often. :heeheehee

Meanwhile, do YOU prostrate yourself in silent adoration every Sunday?

Or do you sit and mentally criticize everyone else for their "unbiblical" behavior in church?

[JoeBandy]

“But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and every one’s fetters were unfastened.”

Doubtful they were face down and prone while wearing shackles in jail.

“…but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another with Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.”

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as you teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.”

“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.”

"But ye shall only do thus face down and prone," says no scripture ever.

I agree with all these praise methods but no where do I see in scripture the wildness that I am referring to.

[n david]

Everywhere in scripture I read when man is contact with God its face down and prone.
OT High Priests were in contact with God.

"And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about: 34A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about. 35And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not."

Hard for a bell to sound if you're face down and prone.

[JoeBandy]

If you think typical UPC services are "wild" then I can only say you need to get out more often. :heeheehee

Meanwhile, do YOU prostrate yourself in silent adoration every Sunday?

Or do you sit and mentally criticize everyone else for their "unbiblical" behavior in church?

nope! I have just heard too many times a minister trying to hype the congregation regarding unbiblical requirements of praise IMO!! It is extra or unbiblical to tell a congregation " if you want your miracle you must (insert certain demonstrative praise routine)!!!!! MORE OFTEN???? Dude do an average of 3 a week for 47 years and see what you get.

[JoeBandy]

OT High Priests were in contact with God.

"And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about: 34A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about. 35And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not."

Hard for a bell to sound if you're face down and prone.

point taken

[Esaias]

nope! I have just heard too many times a minister trying to hype the congregation regarding unbiblical requirements of praise IMO!! It is extra or unbiblical to tell a congregation " if you want your miracle you must (insert certain demonstrative praise routine)!!!!! MORE OFTEN???? Dude do an average of 3 a week for 47 years and see what you get.

So then, according to your criteria you don't worship God? Or don't encounter God at church? Are you even trying? You know, on one knee, see how it goes? Then work to eventually get fully prone?

Hey, those jumpers and runners, at least they're trying.

[n david]

I agree with all these praise methods but no where do I see in scripture the wildness that I am referring to.
Nowhere have I seen or heard of someone actually swinging from a ceiling fan as you mentioned. You mentioned three things in the OP: run, dance and swing from the ceiling fan. Only two of those actually happen in churches - running and dancing. Both are scriptural from both Old and New Testament.

[MawMaw]

Nowhere have I seen or heard of someone actually swinging from a ceiling fan as you mentioned. You mentioned three things in the OP: run, dance and swing from the ceiling fan. Only two of those actually happen in churches - running and dancing. Both are scriptural from both Old and New Testament.

:thumbsup :nod

[JoeBandy]

So then, according to your criteria you don't worship God? Or don't encounter God at church? Are you even trying? You know, on one knee, see how it goes? Then work to eventually get fully prone?

Hey, those jumpers and runners, at least they're trying.

Yea I worship! Worship is a lifestyle, not a dance you do on Sunday night because you feel good or the music is right.

[n david]

NAYC video (https://www.instagram.com/p/BXJkT1BhkLk/?fb_action_ids=10213983451809150&fb_action_types=instapp%3Atake&fb_ref=ogexp&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B673998309391353%5D&action_type_map=%5B"instapp%3Atake"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B"ogexp"%5D)

Someone needs to tell these old folk they're doing it wrong! Face down and prone, people!

God bless this couple! I love this! I believe God does as well.

[JoeBandy]

NAYC video (https://www.instagram.com/p/BXJkT1BhkLk/?fb_action_ids=10213983451809150&fb_action_types=instapp%3Atake&fb_ref=ogexp&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B673998309391353%5D&action_type_map=%5B"instapp%3Atake"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B"ogexp"%5D)

Someone needs to tell these old folk they're doing it wrong! Face down and prone, people!

God bless this couple! I love this! I believe God does as well.

You are taking the face down comment way out of context. Or, I did not explain myself very good.

[Jermyn Davidson]

nope! I have just heard too many times a minister trying to hype the congregation regarding unbiblical requirements of praise IMO!! It is extra or unbiblical to tell a congregation " if you want your miracle you must (insert certain demonstrative praise routine)!!!!! MORE OFTEN???? Dude do an average of 3 a week for 47 years and see what you get.


Brother,
I have seen this in church services and sometimes it does seem contrived.

However, consider God's instructions to the Israelites as they marched around the Walls of Jericho.

Or the instructions after Jesus healed the ruler-- go dip in the dirty river 6 times.

My point is that your praise and worship can serve as a focal point of faith by action.


I am still suspect of the whole, "slain in the Spirit" phenomenon. I cannot think of any scriptural basis for this supposed Work of the Holy Spirit. I assure you I am not intending to be blasphemous-- I just am not sure if this is a real phenomenon or if it is real, is it one that Christians should be doing.

[n david]

You are taking the face down comment way out of context. Or, I did not explain myself very good.

Everywhere in scripture I read when man is contact with God its face down and prone.
Please explain.

[JoeBandy]

In Exodus 34 we see The Lord coming as close to Moses as any person in history. What does he do in verse 8? No running , no dancing, no out of control spinning , no jumpig etc etc.

[Amanah]

Yea I worship! Worship is a lifestyle, not a dance you do on Sunday night because you feel good or the music is right.

You are right, worship is a lifestyle, and it's not about if you feel good or the music is right, it's about expressing love, thanksgiving, and praise to our redeemer, whether the praise team is singing *I'll fly away* or *there is power in the name of Jesus to break every chain*

God loves our praise and worship, when we enter into his courts with thanksgiving and praise, and His Spirit comes down and consumes the sacrifice, there is an atmosphere of His presence in which anything is possible.

[JoeBandy]

You are right, worship is a lifestyle, and it's not about if you feel good or the music is right, it's about expressing love, thanksgiving, and praise to our redeemer, whether the praise team is singing *I'll fly away* or *there is power in the name of Jesus to break every chain*

God loves our praise and worship, when we enter into his courts with thanksgiving and praise, and His Spirit comes down and consumes the sacrifice, there is an atmosphere of His presence in which anything is possible.

This is where I disagree with you. The only criteria I find is where any two.....

[Jermyn Davidson]

Nowhere have I seen or heard of someone actually swinging from a ceiling fan as you mentioned. You mentioned three things in the OP: run, dance and swing from the ceiling fan. Only two of those actually happen in churches - running and dancing. Both are scriptural from both Old and New Testament.

:thumbsup :nod

I think he was using a figure of speech guys.

Not that we need to be reminded, but there are plenty outside of Pentecost who have the same questions he has with some of the things that happen in our church services.

One thing that gets me is the phenomenon when a lot of people are speaking in tongues at the same time as they praise and worship the Lord. I am just unsure how to present scripture that justifies this action to those who criticize Pentecostals from the outside.

Even more problematic for me is when the preacher or whoever happens to be holding the mic speaks in tongues right into the mic as either a way to praise and worship the Lord and to bring strong emphasis to something that is said or happening in that moment.

Admittedly, I am the last person that wants to be a part of a dead church-- where the Gifts of the Spirit are not manifested, where people are not praising and worshipping the Lord in a Biblically demonstrative manner.

[Esaias]

Yea I worship! Worship is a lifestyle, not a dance you do on Sunday night because you feel good or the music is right.

You described worship as prostration, falling prone before God. I asked if that is what you do in church and you indicated it is NOT what you do.

So, just to be clear, when you go to church, do you fall prone on your face for the duration of the worship portion? Or whenever a call to worship is given?

[JoeBandy]

You described worship as prostration, falling prone before God. I asked if that is what you do in church and you indicated it is NOT what you do.

So, just to be clear, when you go to church, do you fall prone on your face for the duration of the worship portion? Or whenever a call to worship is given?

For clarity please read my comment about Exodus 34. And more on my thread topic, please show me an example of the apostles running, jumping, dancing etc etc

[Jermyn Davidson]

You described worship as prostration, falling prone before God. I asked if that is what you do in church and you indicated it is NOT what you do.

So, just to be clear, when you go to church, do you fall prone on your face for the duration of the worship portion? Or whenever a call to worship is given?

Do you think there is something wrong when a person is not "in the Spirit" but are running, leaping, twirling out sheer, fleshly excitement over what the Lord can do in that moment or what He is about to do very soon?

Does a person have to be, "in the Spirit" for any of our praise and worship to be legitimate in the sight of God?

[returnman]

I believe in demonstrative worship. Running the aisles, dancing, jumping, shouting, rolling on the floor...everything that has been predominate in Apostolic circles.


HOWEVER!

Many in Pentecostal circles have made an idol out of music and have become "worshippers of the beat" rather than worshippers of God. In my humble opinion, we should be spending more time on our faces in deep travailing prayer than we should blasting loud music through the sanctuary. I would love to see a shift in Pentecost where prayer and preaching take the front seat and music takes a back seat. I believe this is the Apostolic pattern.

This is right on. I witnessed a few apostolic mosh pits at youth conventions to the loud growl of vocals, drums and bass.

[Esaias]

For clarity please read my comment about Exodus 34. And more on my thread topic, please show me an example of the apostles running, jumping, dancing etc etc

Your comment provides no data on what YOU do for "worship". Are you saying you do what Moses did, in response to a call to worship?

[returnman]

I think he was using a figure of speech guys.

Not that we need to be reminded, but there are plenty outside of Pentecost who have the same questions he has with some of the things that happen in our church services.

One thing that gets me is the phenomenon when a lot of people are speaking in tongues at the same time as they praise and worship the Lord. I am just unsure as to present scripture that justifies this action to those who criticize Pentecostals from the outside.

Even more problematic for me is when the preacher or whoever happens to be holding the mic speaks in tongues right into the mic as either a way to praise and worship the Lord and to bring strong emphasis to something that is said or happening in that moment.

Admittedly, I am the last person that wants to be a part of a dead church-- where the Gifts of the Spirit are not manifested, where people are not praising and worshipping the Lord in a Biblically demonstrative manner.

This reflects back on a lot of years with me as well. Good point.

[houston]

If you think typical UPC services are "wild" then I can only say you need to get out more often.

Do you have video of your wild meetings? I would like to see.

[Esaias]

Do you have video of your wild meetings? I would like to see.

No video, sorry. Only audio.

[JoeBandy]

Your comment provides no data on what YOU do for "worship". Are you saying you do what Moses did, in response to a call to worship?

Yes.

[TakingDominion]

NAYC video (https://www.instagram.com/p/BXJkT1BhkLk/?fb_action_ids=10213983451809150&fb_action_types=instapp%3Atake&fb_ref=ogexp&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B673998309391353%5D&action_type_map=%5B"instapp%3Atake"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B"ogexp"%5D)

Someone needs to tell these old folk they're doing it wrong! Face down and prone, people!

God bless this couple! I love this! I believe God does as well.

thanks for sharing, awesome video! :yourock

[n david]

This is where I disagree with you. The only criteria I find is where any two.....
Tough luck if you're by yourself, then, eh?

I've too many experiences alone with God where I have felt His presence when I worship and praise Him. Whether it's praise and dance, or intercessory prayer while prostrate before Him -- whenever I call Him, He's there. It doesn't take two. It doesn't always include me being face down and prone.

Sometimes it's when I praise Him in the shout and dance. Sometimes it's when I bow or prostrate myself in quiet prayer. Sometimes it's in intercession when I can hardly form words in prayer.

There's no one formula for meeting with God. There's no one position in which we meet with Him.

[n david]

In Exodus 34 we see The Lord coming as close to Moses as any person in history. What does he do in verse 8? No running , no dancing, no out of control spinning , no jumpig etc etc.
So you take one verse and claim worship is only face down and prone?

Have you met David? ""And David danced before the LORD with all his might;""

[Esaias]

Yes.

So, you're at the local UPC, the service begins (let me guess, the music leader says something like "Let's worship") and you perform a prostration and remain there, prone, until the worship segment ends and the preaching begins? Or something like that?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what's going on.

[JoeBandy]

I think he was using a figure of speech guys.

Not that we need to be reminded, but there are plenty outside of Pentecost who have the same questions he has with some of the things that happen in our church services.

One thing that gets me is the phenomenon when a lot of people are speaking in tongues at the same time as they praise and worship the Lord. I am just unsure how to present scripture that justifies this action to those who criticize Pentecostals from the outside.

Even more problematic for me is when the preacher or whoever happens to be holding the mic speaks in tongues right into the mic as either a way to praise and worship the Lord and to bring strong emphasis to something that is said or happening in that moment.

Admittedly, I am the last person that wants to be a part of a dead church-- where the Gifts of the Spirit are not manifested, where people are not praising and worshipping the Lord in a Biblically demonstrative manner.

This reminds me of a time I was attending the church in Denham Springs when the minister completely stops multiple people speaking in tongues at the same time. He then preceded to use scripture for his reasoning on why he did. I can not remember the preacher he was some yankee. First and only time I have seen this done.

[TakingDominion]

Yes.

I know an old preacher by the name of Bro Holt who will, right in the middle of a white hot worship service, fall down suddenly on his hands and knees with his face pressed to the floor. He does it so fast, that the first time I saw it I thought he had taken a tumble. I've seen him do it many times and even while he's sitting on the platform.

Some may call it nonsense or silliness, but for him it's the only way he can show the love and appreciation that he feels for his Savior.

You may run, you may dance. You might shout, you might even sing. You may just slip a hand in the air and give an old fashioned wave offering. Whatever you, do it with everything you within you!

When I think of the goodness of Jesus, and all that he's done for me!

[JoeBandy]

So, you're at the local UPC, the service begins (let me guess, the music leader says something like "Let's worship") and you perform a prostration and remain there, prone, until the worship segment ends and the preaching begins? Or something like that?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what's going on.

No your not. You are just trying to prove me wrong.

[JoeBandy]

Tough luck if you're by yourself, then, eh?

I've too many experiences alone with God where I have felt His presence when I worship and praise Him. Whether it's praise and dance, or intercessory prayer while prostrate before Him -- whenever I call Him, He's there. It doesn't take two. It doesn't always include me being face down and prone.

Sometimes it's when I praise Him in the shout and dance. Sometimes it's when I bow or prostrate myself in quiet prayer. Sometimes it's in intercession when I can hardly form words in prayer.

There's no one formula for meeting with God. There's no one position in which we meet with Him.

SO you don't agree with Matthew 18:20?

[Jermyn Davidson]

This reminds me of a time I was attending the church in Denham Springs when the minister completely stops multiple people speaking in tongues at the same time. He then preceded to use scripture for his reasoning on why he did. I can not remember the preacher he was some yankee. First and only time I have seen this done.


The best (and I guess only) justification I have been able to come up with is that near the end of Paul's preaching on how speaking in tongues and prophecy should happen in our services is his clear admonition to, "DON'T FORBID PEOPLE FROM SPEAKING IN TONGUES."

[Esaias]

No your not. You are just trying to prove me wrong.

How can I prove you "wrong" if you are describing what you do? Am I going to pull up video of you and say "Aha! You are NOT prone during worship!"???? Seriously, I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

[Jermyn Davidson]

You described worship as prostration, falling prone before God. I asked if that is what you do in church and you indicated it is NOT what you do.

So, just to be clear, when you go to church, do you fall prone on your face for the duration of the worship portion? Or whenever a call to worship is given?

Do you think there is something wrong when a person is not "in the Spirit" but are running, leaping, twirling out sheer, fleshly excitement over what the Lord can do in that moment or what He is about to do very soon?

Does a person have to be, "in the Spirit" for any of our praise and worship to be legitimate in the sight of God?



Esaias!

bump

[n david]

I think he was using a figure of speech guys.
Obviously. I didn't believe he was being serious. Most people who poo poo demonstrative worship bring up that type of non-existent foolishness in an attempt to discourage any type of demonstrative worship.

Not that we need to be reminded, but there are plenty outside of Pentecost who have the same questions he has with some of the things that happen in our church services.
I would, too, if I saw someone swinging from a ceiling fan. :lol

One thing that gets me is the phenomenon when a lot of people are speaking in tongues at the same time as they praise and worship the Lord. I am just unsure how to present scripture that justifies this action to those who criticize Pentecostals from the outside.
There were critics on the day of Pentecost as well. People mocked and said they were drunk.

Even more problematic for me is when the preacher or whoever happens to be holding the mic speaks in tongues right into the mic as either a way to praise and worship the Lord and to bring strong emphasis to something that is said or happening in that moment.
I don't fault them for it. Sometimes you can't hold it in.

[JoeBandy]

How can I prove you "wrong" if you are describing what you do? Am I going to pull up video of you and say "Aha! You are NOT prone during worship!"???? Seriously, I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

I do stand, I do sing, I do pray out loud. I do not however, run, jump, flail my self wildly .. especially at a command from the pulpit.

[n david]

For clarity please read my comment about Exodus 34. And more on my thread topic, please show me an example of the apostles running, jumping, dancing etc etc

I know an old preacher by the name of Bro Holt who will, right in the middle of a white hot worship service, fall down suddenly on his hands and knees with his face pressed to the floor. He does it so fast, that the first time I saw it I thought he had taken a tumble. I've seen him do it many times and even while he's sitting on the platform.

Some may call it nonsense or silliness, but for him it's the only way he can show the love and appreciation that he feels for his Savior.

You may run, you may dance. You might shout, you might even sing. You may just slip a hand in the air and give an old fashioned wave offering. Whatever you, do it with everything you within you!

When I think of the goodness of Jesus, and all that he's done for me!

:happydance :thumbsup

[JoeBandy]

Obviously. I didn't believe he was being serious. Most people who poo poo demonstrative worship bring up that type of non-existent foolishness in an attempt to discourage any type of demonstrative worship.


I would, too, if I saw someone swinging from a ceiling fan. :lol


There were critics on the day of Pentecost as well. People mocked and said they were drunk.


I don't fault them for it. Sometimes you can't hold it in.

Can you provide scripture on why, on the day of Pentecost, the accusation was being drunk? It was not there physical action it was their speech!

[JoeBandy]

I am still waiting on scripture of one instance an apostle ran, jumped ,danced etc!

[consapente89]

JoeBandy....do you speak in tongues often??

[Esaias]

I do stand, I do sing, I do pray out loud. I do not however, run, jump, flail my self wildly .. especially at a command from the pulpit.

But I thought you said the only thing people did in the presence of God was prostrate themselves? Biblically, that is. So why then do you not limit yourself to just prostration?

[n david]

SO you don't agree with Matthew 18:20?
Let's review. You said:

This is where I disagree with you. The only criteria I find is where any two.....

I do agree with Matt 18:20.

I do NOT believe that there MUST be AT LEAST two or three for God to meet with us.

[JoeBandy]

But I thought you said the only thing people did in the presence of God was prostrate themselves? Biblically, that is. So why then do you not limit yourself to just prostration?

Can you show me in scripture where IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD one does not fall or kneel?

[Amanah]

Acts 3King James Version (KJV)

3 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.

2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;

3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.

4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.

5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

[JoeBandy]

JoeBandy....do you speak in tongues often??

Depend on your definition of often. can you explain why this would matter to worship styles?

[Esaias]

Esaias!

bump

Worship is something we do in response to God's grace and glory. I do not think a person must "feel" some kind of supernatural impulse in order for them to render homage to God. Consider prayer: while prayer certainly ought to be led and directed by the Spirit, that doesn't mean you must "wait for the spirit" before calling out to God. If you do, it usually winds up being the case that you never pray unless you "feel" like it.

Hope that makes sense.

[n david]

For clarity please read my comment about Exodus 34. And more on my thread topic, please show me an example of the apostles running, jumping, dancing etc etc
Moses bowing down in Exodus 34 is one way to worship. That singular example is not the ONLY example. There are seven Hebrew words for praise.

1. HALLAL is a primary Hebrew root word for praise. Our word "hallelujah" comes from this base word. It means "to be clear, to praise, to shine, to boast, show, to rave, celebrate, to be clamorously foolish."

Psalm 113:1-3 Praise (hallal) ye the Lord, praise (hallal) o ye servants of the Lord, praise (hallal) the name of the Lord.

Psalm 150:1 Praise (hallal) the Lord! Praise (hallal) God in His sanctuary; Praise (hallal) Him in His mighty expanse.

Psalm 149:3 Let them praise (hallal) His name in the dance: let them sing praises with the timbrel and harp.

OTHER REFERENCES: Judges 16:24; 2 Samuel 14:25; 2 Chronicles 7:6; Ezra 3:10-11; Nehemiah 5:13; Psalms 18:3, 56:4, 63:5, 150:2-4; Isaiah 62:9; Jeremiah 20:13; Joel 2:26

2. YADAH is a verb with a root meaning, "the extended hand, to throw out the hand, therefore to worship with extended hand, to lift the hands." According to the Lexicon, the opposite meaning is "to bemoan, the wringing of the hands."

2 Chronicles 20:21 Give thanks (yadah) to the Lord, for His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Psalm 63:1 So I will bless thee as long as I live; I will (yadah) lift up my hands in Thy name.

Psalm 107:15 Oh that men would praise (yadah) the Lord for His goodness, and for His wonderful works to the children of men.

OTHER REFERENCES: Genesis 29:35, 49:8; 2 Chronicles 7:3,6; Psalms 67:3, 108:3; Isaiah 12:1,4; Jeremiah 33:11

3. TOWDAH comes from the same principle root word as yadah, but is used more specifically. Towdah literally means, "an extension of the hand in adoration, avowal, or acceptance." By way of application, it is apparent in the Psalms and elsewhere that it is used for thanking God for "things not yet received" as well as things already at hand.

Psalm 50:14 Offer unto God praise (towdah) and pay thy vows unto the Most High.

Psalm 50:23 Whoso offereth praise (towdah) glorifieth Me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

OTHER REFERENCES: Psalms 42:4, 56:12; Jeremiah 17:26; Jeremiah 33:11

4. SHABACH means, "to shout, to address in a loud tone, to command, to triumph."

Psalm 47:1 O clap your hands, all peoples; shout (shabach) to God with the voice of joy (or triumph).

Psalm 145:4 One generation shall praise (shabach) Thy works to another and declare Thy mighty acts.

Isaiah 12:6 Cry aloud and shout (shabach) for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, For great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel.

OTHER REFERENCES: Psalms 63:3, 117:1, 145:4; Ecclesiastes 4:2

5. BARAK means "to kneel down, to bless God as an act of adoration, to salute."

Psalm 95:6 O come let us worship and bow down; let us kneel (barak) before the Lord our maker.

1Chronicles 29:20 Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless (barak) the Lord your God." And all the assembly blessed (barak) the Lord, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the Lord and to the king.

Psalm 34:1 I will bless (barak) the Lord at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

OTHER REFERENCES: Judges 5:2; Psalms 72:15, 96:2, 103:1-2

6. ZAMAR means "to pluck the strings of an instrument, to sing, to praise; a musical word which is largely involved with joyful expressions of music with musical instruments.

Psalm 21:13 Be exalted O Lord, in Thine own strength, so will we sing and praise (zamar) Thy power.

1Chronicles 16:9 Sing to Him, sing praises (zamar) to Him; speak of all His wonders.

Psalm 57:8-9 Awake my glory; awake harp and lyre, I will awaken the dawn! I will give thanks to Thee, O Lord among the peoples; I will sing praises (zamar) to Thee among the nations.

OTHER REFERENCES: Judges 5:3; 2 Samuel 22:50; Psalms 61:8, 147:1, 7

7. TEHILLAH is derived from the word halal and means "the singing of halals, to sing or to laud; perceived to involve music, especially singing; hymns of the Spirit or praise.”

Psalm 22:3 Yet Thou art holy, O Thou who art enthroned upon the praises (tehillah) of Israel.

Isaiah 61:3 To grant to those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise (tehillah) instead of the spirit of fainting, So they shall be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

OTHER REFERENCES: Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 10:21; Nehemiah 9:5; Psalms 9:14, 22:25; Jeremiah 48:2

[JoeBandy]

Acts 3King James Version (KJV)

3 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.

2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;

3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.

4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.

5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

He was praising God And walking and leaping. Separate things!

[consapente89]

Depend on your definition of often. can you explain why this would matter to worship styles?

Just wondering if during prayer or worship services, do you typically speak in tongues in the service? Do you get emotional and speak/pray in tongues fervently or loudly?

Honestly I am just wondering how far you distance yourself from what has been the norm in Pentecost. That's all.

[Esaias]

Can you show me in scripture where IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD one does not fall or kneel?

I am not arguing one must NOT prostrate oneself before God in worship. It seemed to me that you were arguing one must ONLY prostrate oneself before God in worship.

[JoeBandy]

Moses bowing down in Exodus 34 is one way to worship. That singular example is not the ONLY example. There are seven Hebrew words for praise.

1. HALLAL is a primary Hebrew root word for praise. Our word "hallelujah" comes from this base word. It means "to be clear, to praise, to shine, to boast, show, to rave, celebrate, to be clamorously foolish."

Psalm 113:1-3 Praise (hallal) ye the Lord, praise (hallal) o ye servants of the Lord, praise (hallal) the name of the Lord.

Psalm 150:1 Praise (hallal) the Lord! Praise (hallal) God in His sanctuary; Praise (hallal) Him in His mighty expanse.

Psalm 149:3 Let them praise (hallal) His name in the dance: let them sing praises with the timbrel and harp.

OTHER REFERENCES: Judges 16:24; 2 Samuel 14:25; 2 Chronicles 7:6; Ezra 3:10-11; Nehemiah 5:13; Psalms 18:3, 56:4, 63:5, 150:2-4; Isaiah 62:9; Jeremiah 20:13; Joel 2:26

2. YADAH is a verb with a root meaning, "the extended hand, to throw out the hand, therefore to worship with extended hand, to lift the hands." According to the Lexicon, the opposite meaning is "to bemoan, the wringing of the hands."

2 Chronicles 20:21 Give thanks (yadah) to the Lord, for His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Psalm 63:1 So I will bless thee as long as I live; I will (yadah) lift up my hands in Thy name.

Psalm 107:15 Oh that men would praise (yadah) the Lord for His goodness, and for His wonderful works to the children of men.

OTHER REFERENCES: Genesis 29:35, 49:8; 2 Chronicles 7:3,6; Psalms 67:3, 108:3; Isaiah 12:1,4; Jeremiah 33:11

3. TOWDAH comes from the same principle root word as yadah, but is used more specifically. Towdah literally means, "an extension of the hand in adoration, avowal, or acceptance." By way of application, it is apparent in the Psalms and elsewhere that it is used for thanking God for "things not yet received" as well as things already at hand.

Psalm 50:14 Offer unto God praise (towdah) and pay thy vows unto the Most High.

Psalm 50:23 Whoso offereth praise (towdah) glorifieth Me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

OTHER REFERENCES: Psalms 42:4, 56:12; Jeremiah 17:26; Jeremiah 33:11

4. SHABACH means, "to shout, to address in a loud tone, to command, to triumph."

Psalm 47:1 O clap your hands, all peoples; shout (shabach) to God with the voice of joy (or triumph).

Psalm 145:4 One generation shall praise (shabach) Thy works to another and declare Thy mighty acts.

Isaiah 12:6 Cry aloud and shout (shabach) for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, For great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel.

OTHER REFERENCES: Psalms 63:3, 117:1, 145:4; Ecclesiastes 4:2

5. BARAK means "to kneel down, to bless God as an act of adoration, to salute."

Psalm 95:6 O come let us worship and bow down; let us kneel (barak) before the Lord our maker.

1Chronicles 29:20 Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless (barak) the Lord your God." And all the assembly blessed (barak) the Lord, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the Lord and to the king.

Psalm 34:1 I will bless (barak) the Lord at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

OTHER REFERENCES: Judges 5:2; Psalms 72:15, 96:2, 103:1-2

6. ZAMAR means "to pluck the strings of an instrument, to sing, to praise; a musical word which is largely involved with joyful expressions of music with musical instruments.

Psalm 21:13 Be exalted O Lord, in Thine own strength, so will we sing and praise (zamar) Thy power.

1Chronicles 16:9 Sing to Him, sing praises (zamar) to Him; speak of all His wonders.

Psalm 57:8-9 Awake my glory; awake harp and lyre, I will awaken the dawn! I will give thanks to Thee, O Lord among the peoples; I will sing praises (zamar) to Thee among the nations.

OTHER REFERENCES: Judges 5:3; 2 Samuel 22:50; Psalms 61:8, 147:1, 7

7. TEHILLAH is derived from the word halal and means "the singing of halals, to sing or to laud; perceived to involve music, especially singing; hymns of the Spirit or praise.”

Psalm 22:3 Yet Thou art holy, O Thou who art enthroned upon the praises (tehillah) of Israel.

Isaiah 61:3 To grant to those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise (tehillah) instead of the spirit of fainting, So they shall be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

OTHER REFERENCES: Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 10:21; Nehemiah 9:5; Psalms 9:14, 22:25; Jeremiah 48:2

Awesome now find reference to these same words in the NT.

[n david]

Can you show me in scripture where IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD one does not fall or kneel?
I already posted about one. The High Priest was literally in the presence of God in the Holy of Holies. He had bells on the hem of his garments which the Bible said were to sound. They cannot sound if he remained face down and prone.

[JoeBandy]

Just wondering if during prayer or worship services, do you typically speak in tongues in the service? Do you get emotional and speak/pray in tongues fervently or loudly?

Honestly I am just wondering how far you distance yourself from what has been the norm in Pentecost. That's all.

I am not a loud person I do not believe God is hard of hearing. I do not believe in the common UPC type ( the more demonstrative the more blessings etc etc) preaching and hype.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Can you show me in scripture where IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD one does not fall or kneel?

Do you fall to your knees in church?

You sit on the front row, correct?

[JoeBandy]

I already posted about one. The High Priest was literally in the presence of God in the Holy of Holies. He had bells on the hem of his garments which the Bible said were to sound. They cannot sound if he remained face down and prone.

Good Point

[n david]

Can you provide scripture on why, on the day of Pentecost, the accusation was being drunk? It was not there physical action it was their speech!
Please re-read the post.

One thing that gets me is the phenomenon when a lot of people are speaking in tongues at the same time as they praise and worship the Lord. I am just unsure how to present scripture that justifies this action to those who criticize Pentecostals from the outside.
I was referring to the selection in bold, not demonstrative worship.

[JoeBandy]

Do you fall to your knees in church?

You sit on the front row, correct?

Who yanked your know it all, egotistical, sarcastic........ well nevermind. However I do stay on my knees a bit, in service and out. And no I don't like being spit on by screaming preachers so I don't sit on first pew.

[JoeBandy]

Please re-read the post.


I was referring to the selection in bold, not demonstrative worship.

ok

[n david]

He was praising God And walking and leaping. Separate things!
Oh good grief. :smack

[Amanah]

Oh good grief. :smack

I know right? :heeheehee

[JoeBandy]

Oh good grief. :smack

yep but true. Still not one apostle has jumped, ran or danced.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Who yanked your know it all, egotistical, sarcastic........ well nevermind.


Definitely nevermind.

Because you sure didn't take the high road.

So, let me try again.

Do you fall to your knees during service?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Oh good grief. :smack

He took a little stroll, then jumped. A little stroll, then jumped. Walk, jump, walk, jump.

[n david]

Awesome now find reference to these same words in the NT.
Ironic. You use Exodus 34 to try and prove that people should ONLY be face down and prone, but demand NT verses about worship.

Here's a thought: you do what you feel God leads you to do in worship and let others do what they feel to do in their own worship to God.

Better yet, post a single verse which says we're to ONLY be face down and prone in worship before God. In fact, you've not posted any verse from the NT to support your face down/prone theology.

[JoeBandy]

Definitely nevermind.

Because you sure didn't take the high road.

So, let me try again.

Do you fall to your knees during service?

AT some point yep

[JoeBandy]

Ironic. You use Exodus 34 to try and prove that people should ONLY be face down and prone, but demand NT verses about worship.

Here's a thought: you do what you feel God leads you to do in worship and let others do what they feel to do in their own worship to God.

Better yet, post a single verse which says we're to ONLY be face down and prone in worship before God. In fact, you've not posted any verse from the NT to support your face down/prone theology.

all good points thanks

[n david]

He took a little stroll, then jumped. A little stroll, then jumped. Walk, jump, walk, jump.
He was exercising and would stop now and then to worship.

Kind of like this guy

http://i.imgur.com/TUPDUkA.gif

[JoeBandy]

He was exercising and would stop now and then to worship.

Kind of like this guy

http://i.imgur.com/TUPDUkA.gif

Might as well combine the two to save time. Lord knows the eating wont stop.

[Evang.Benincasa]

yep but true. Still not one apostle has jumped, ran or danced.




Joe, how many apostles played a musical instrument?

[Evang.Benincasa]

He was exercising and would stop now and then to worship.

Kind of like this guy

http://i.imgur.com/TUPDUkA.gif

Is that a calzone or a slice of pizza?

Leap, walk, then leap.

Ok, leap is one movement, and walk is another movement.

[JoeBandy]

Ironic. You use Exodus 34 to try and prove that people should ONLY be face down and prone, but demand NT verses about worship.

Here's a thought: you do what you feel God leads you to do in worship and let others do what they feel to do in their own worship to God.

Better yet, post a single verse which says we're to ONLY be face down and prone in worship before God. In fact, you've not posted any verse from the NT to support your face down/prone theology.

Lets go back to my original post. Tweets were referring to the type worship as true Apostolic. I am raising the point that no where in scripture do you find an apostle doing what was on the video.

[JoeBandy]

Joe, how many apostles played a musical instrument?

Three

[Evang.Benincasa]

Might as well combine the two to save time. Lord knows the eating wont stop.

Stop eating?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Three

The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Lets go back to my original post. Tweets were referring to the type worship as true Apostolic. I am raising the point that no where in scripture do you find an apostle doing what was on the video.

I understand what you are saying, but how can you say that wasn't happening?

[JoeBandy]

The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker?

Man I think that's Mother Goose!

[houston]

JoeBandy....do you speak in tongues often??

Oh, the litmus test.

[JoeBandy]

I understand what you are saying, but how can you say that wasn't happening?

Well.. of all the things Paul wrote about.. Hold on a few I have issues!

[Amanah]

{20:1} The first [day] of the week cometh Mary
Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre,
and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. {20:2}
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the
other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They
have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we
know not where they have laid him. {20:3} Peter therefore
went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the
sepulchre. {20:4} So they ran both together: and the other
disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
{20:5} And he stooping down, [and looking in,] saw the
linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. {20:6} Then cometh
Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre,
and seeth the linen clothes lie, {20:7} And the napkin, that
was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but
wrapped together in a place by itself. {20:8} Then went in
also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre,
and he saw, and believed. {20:9} For as yet they knew not
the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Man I think that's Mother Goose!

You posted three.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Well.. of all the things Paul wrote about.. Hold on a few I have issues!

What do you mean?

Hold on a few?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Oh, the litmus test.

I guess there are some here who don't? :heeheehee

[houston]

I guess there are some here who don't? :heeheehee

Saturday morning some time past midnight. Probably not frequent enough for you all.

[JoeBandy]

{20:1} The first [day] of the week cometh Mary
Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre,
and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. {20:2}
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the
other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They
have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we
know not where they have laid him. {20:3} Peter therefore
went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the
sepulchre. {20:4} So they ran both together: and the other
disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
{20:5} And he stooping down, [and looking in,] saw the
linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. {20:6} Then cometh
Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre,
and seeth the linen clothes lie, {20:7} And the napkin, that
was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but
wrapped together in a place by itself. {20:8} Then went in
also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre,
and he saw, and believed. {20:9} For as yet they knew not
the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

I appreciate your attempt but the running here is not running in praise.

[n david]

Lets go back to my original post. Tweets were referring to the type worship as true Apostolic. I am raising the point that no where in scripture do you find an apostle doing what was on the video.
The absence of something written in the NT doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Please post the scripture which shows an Apostle face down and prone.

[n david]

Is that a calzone or a slice of pizza?

Leap, walk, then leap.

Ok, leap is one movement, and walk is another movement.

I think it's a pizza.

Lean back ... then take a bite. Lean back ... then take a bite.

Leap. Walk. Then praise God. Rinse and repeat.

Some people can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The praise which was being conducted in the early church is found in Psalm 150:4. 1 Corinthians 14:26 gives the order of those who led the congregation in singing, and the word.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think it's a pizza.

Lean back ... then take a bite. Lean back ... then take a bite.

Leap. Walk. Then praise God. Rinse and repeat.

Some people can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

:heeheehee

[n david]

He was praising God And walking and leaping. Separate things!
Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?

[Esaias]

Biblical Worship

That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. (Romans 15:16)

Worship in two aspects
Our daily life:
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:19-27)

Also, corporate worship – when we come together:
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Leviticus 23:2)
Feasts = 'moed' or appointment, an appointed time or meeting.
mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):

Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:3)
Holy convocation = mik-raw'
something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:

So God has 'feasts' or 'appointments' which are holy or sacred 'meetings' for His people. The first and primary appointed time is the weekly Sabbath. This is a time for God's people to gather together for a sacred or holy purpose: meeting with God.

Church = ekklesia
(Thayer's Definition)
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

The 'church' then is the gathered together assembly of believers, both in the sense of the gathering, and the ones gathered together. Christians are called together into a relationship with Christ and one another. What do God's people do when they gather together to worship God?

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. (Hebrews 8:1-5)

By looking at the old covenant system of worship, we can see a type or discern the pattern of heavenly, Spiritual worship.
There was a tabernacle – a tent with an outer courtyard, a wash basin, a brass altar for burning sacrifices, a tent building with the first room containing a golden menorah, table of shewbread, and a golden altar for offering incense. A curtain, behind which is the holy of holies, containing the ark of the covenant. The ark was a gold covered box in which was the Ten Commandments written on the two stone tables, covered with a lid that was called 'the mercy seat', with two cherubim carved on it, and served as a sort of throne. There was a daily (“continual”) sacrifice, once in the evening, and once in the morning. This pointed to Christ being a continual sacrifice that made the whole system of worship sanctified, or acceptable to God.There was a lighting of the candlestick, and offering of incense before the inner curtain at the golden altar of incense. People also brought to the priests their personal offerings of various types – sin and tresspass offerings, voluntary free will peace offerings, etc. Only priests could minister in the tabernacle properly.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:15)
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:10)
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:16)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1Peter 2:5)

The old covenant system of worship is a pattern, or shadow, or type, or picture of the new covenant worship. The church is called together to offer up spiritual sacrifices under the new covenant, which include not only our godly living, sharing with one another, and serving one another, but also the sacrifices or offerings of praise and prayer. Here are some elements of Biblical prayer:

Standing in prayer:
At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day. (Deuteronomy 10:8)
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (Psalm 24:3)
Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God, (Psalm 135:2)
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11:25)
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (Luke 18:13)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:9)

Bowing (prostration):
And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son. (Genesis 24:48)
Bowed down my head - qâdad
kaw-dad'
A primitive root; to shrivel up, that is, contract or bend the body (or neck) in deference: - bow (down) (the) head, stoop.
And worshipped - shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. (Exodus 34:6-8)

Bowed his head toward the earth and worshipped – same words as before (note, he made haste – hurried, “flowed”, into bowing and worshipping)

And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever. (2Chronicles 7:3)
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. (Matthew 2:11)
And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. (Luke 17:16)
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:14)
worship - proskuneō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.

[Amanah]

I appreciate your attempt but the running here is not running in praise.

it was in excitement, anticipation, and belief that Jesus had resurrected, you think there was no praise?

[Esaias]

Kneeling:
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, (Luke 22:41)
And when we had accomplished those days, we departed and went our way; and they all brought us on our way, with wives and children, till we were out of the city: and we kneeled down on the shore, and prayed. (Acts 21:5)
For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven, (2Chronicles 6:13)
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime. (Daniel 6:10)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)
(note: kneeling, and confessing)
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. (1Kings 8:54)

Hands raised:
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. (1Kings 8:54)
Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. (Psalm 141:2)
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (1Timothy 2:8)


Headcovering:
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. (1Corinthians 11:4-11)

(Power in verse 10 is 'exousia' and means 'authority', the woman ought to have a sign of authority, which is the headcovering, showing to the angels that she is in agreement with Biblical authority. The man's uncovered head would also demonstrate that he is in agreement with Biblical authority as well.)

(The 'man' and 'woman' spoken of in verses 8 and 9 are a reference to Adam and Eve as the Original or archetypical 'man and woman'.)

Praying all together:
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (Acts 4:24)


Lifting up the voice:
They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea. (Isaiah 24:14)
I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah. (Psalm 3:4)
When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday. (Psalm 42:4)
O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. (Psalm 47:1)
(Notice, it says to 'clap your hands' in conjunction with shouting to God.)
Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice. (Psalm 55:17)
(Notice, prayer three times a day.)
O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard: (Psalm 66:8)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (Acts 4:24)
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (Hebrews 5:7)
(This is commonly known as 'travailing prayer'.) See also:
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26)
(From Gill's Commentary: and this intercession he makes, "with groanings which, cannot be uttered"; not that the Spirit of God groans, but he stirs up groans in the saints; which suppose a burden on them, and their sense of it: and these are said to be "unutterable"; saints, under his influence, praying silently, without a voice, as Moses and Hannah did, 1Sa_1:13, and yet most ardently and fervently; or as not being able to express fully what they conceive in their minds, how great their burdens are, and their sense of their wants.)

And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (Luke 17:15)
And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; (Luke 19:37)
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. (Revelation 5:11-12)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-10)

Fervent prayer and worship:
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; (Romans 12:11)
(fervent: zeō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to boil with heat, be hot
1a) used of water
1b) metaphorically
1b1) used of boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad etc.
1b2) fervent in spirit, said of zeal for what is good)

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)
(effectual fervent: The Greek word (ἐνεργουμένη energoumenē) would be better rendered by the word energetic, which indeed is derived from it. The word properly refers to that which has power; which in its own nature is fitted to produce an effect. It is not so much that it actually does produce an effect, as that it is fitted to do it. This is the kind of prayer referred to here. It is not listless, indifferent, cold, lifeless, as if there were no vitality in it, or power, but that which is adapted to be efficient - earnest, sincere, hearty, persevering. - Barnes' Notes)
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. (Psalm 5:11)
be joyful = ‛âlats
aw-lats'
A primitive root; to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be joyful, rejoice, triumph.
Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart. (Psalm 32:11)
rejoice = gı̂yl gûl
gheel, gool
A primitive root; properly to spin around (under the influence of any violent emotion), that is, usually rejoice, or (as cringing) fear: - be glad, joy, be joyful, rejoice.
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1Peter 1:8)
ye rejoice = agalliaō
ag-al-lee-ah'-o
properly to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly).

[Esaias]

Praying and singing in other tongues:
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4)
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (1Corinthians 14:2)
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co 14:4)
(notice: speaking in tongues is speaking to God (prayer) “in the Spirit”, and edifies oneself)

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. (1Corinthians 14:14-17)
(praying in tongues is equivalent to “my spirit prays”. Prayer should be both with the spirit, as well as with the understanding. Do both! Notice, there is also singing in tongues. And speaking in tongues is also 'blessing with the spirit” whereby one “gives thanks well”. BUT because praying or speaking in tongues is not understood by others, it is not meant to be heard by and paid attention to by others.)

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude vs20-21)

Praying the Psalms:
The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended. (Psalm 72:20)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Psalm 22:1)
(The Psalms are prayers, and Jesus was repeating the words of Psalm 22:1)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (Acts 4:24-26)
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed... (Psalm 2:1-2)
(The church prayed the words of Psalm 2:1-2 in corporate prayer)

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm 100:2)

Kiss of Peace:
Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. (Romans 16:16)
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. (Philippians 4:21)
Greet one another with an holy kiss. (2Corinthians 13:12)
salute - aspazomai
as-pad'-zom-ahee
to enfold in the arms, that is, (by implication) to salute, (figuratively) to welcome: - embrace, greet, salute, take leave.)

Reading and teaching the Word:
And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Nehemiah 8:5-8)
(This is why we stand for the reading of the Word.)
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luke 4:16)
And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (Acts 13:15)
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1Timothy 4:13)

The Lord's Supper:
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:26-29)
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (1Corinthians 10:16-17)

Footwashing:
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. (John 13:3-5)
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. (John 13:14-15)

[JoeBandy]

Praying and singing in other tongues:
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4)
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (1Corinthians 14:2)
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co 14:4)
(notice: speaking in tongues is speaking to God (prayer) “in the Spirit”, and edifies oneself)

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. (1Corinthians 14:14-17)
(praying in tongues is equivalent to “my spirit prays”. Prayer should be both with the spirit, as well as with the understanding. Do both! Notice, there is also singing in tongues. And speaking in tongues is also 'blessing with the spirit” whereby one “gives thanks well”. BUT because praying or speaking in tongues is not understood by others, it is not meant to be heard by and paid attention to by others.)

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude vs20-21)

Praying the Psalms:
The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended. (Psalm 72:20)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Psalm 22:1)
(The Psalms are prayers, and Jesus was repeating the words of Psalm 22:1)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (Acts 4:24-26)
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed... (Psalm 2:1-2)
(The church prayed the words of Psalm 2:1-2 in corporate prayer)

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm 100:2)

Kiss of Peace:
Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. (Romans 16:16)
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. (Philippians 4:21)
Greet one another with an holy kiss. (2Corinthians 13:12)
salute - aspazomai
as-pad'-zom-ahee
to enfold in the arms, that is, (by implication) to salute, (figuratively) to welcome: - embrace, greet, salute, take leave.)

Reading and teaching the Word:
And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Nehemiah 8:5-8)
(This is why we stand for the reading of the Word.)
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luke 4:16)
And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (Acts 13:15)
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1Timothy 4:13)

The Lord's Supper:
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:26-29)
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (1Corinthians 10:16-17)

Footwashing:
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. (John 13:3-5)
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. (John 13:14-15)

All good stuff thanks

[JoeBandy]

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?

I don't chew gum

[Amanah]

I don't chew gum

that's good, nothing worse then used gum stuck under the pews

[aegsm76]

JB - is it ok to use musical instruments in church?
I mean nowhere in the NT are they used.
Also, I am now wondering about vehicles to get to church.
I mean the early church walked everywhere they went...

[Amanah]

Let's have church, Bro Esaias can teach, Bro nDavid can lead worship, and then Bro Benincasa can tell funny stories and preach.

[n david]

JB - is it ok to use musical instruments in church?
I mean nowhere in the NT are they used.
Also, I am now wondering about vehicles to get to church.
I mean the early church walked everywhere they went...
Let's not mention the altar call or offering. Heaven forbid a church has a choir or soloist. Electricity wasn't invented, so obviously Sure cordless mics are of the debbil. Paul didn't wear an earbud to hear himself either!

Lord, have mercy!

[JoeBandy]

Let's not mention the altar call or offering. Heaven forbid a church has a choir or soloist. Electricity wasn't invented, so obviously Sure cordless mics are of the debbil. Paul didn't wear an earbud to hear himself either!

Lord, have mercy!

well..... just when this thread had a chance to become intellectual

[Esaias]

JB - is it ok to use musical instruments in church?
I mean nowhere in the NT are they used.
Also, I am now wondering about vehicles to get to church.
I mean the early church walked everywhere they went...

The mode of travel to a meeting is incidental and not a direct part of "worship" and therefore is not covered by the Scripture's regulation of worship.

Same with using electrical lights or sound amplification systems.

The use of a "worship team", choir, soloist, worship "director", and similar things, however, ARE part of a congregation's act of worship, and therefore subject to the Scripture's regulation of worship.

[Esaias]

The mode of travel to a meeting is incidental and not a direct part of "worship" and therefore is not covered by the Scripture's regulation of worship.

Same with using electrical lights or sound amplification systems.

The use of a "worship team", choir, soloist, worship "director", and similar things, however, ARE part of a congregation's act of worship, and therefore subject to the Scripture's regulation of worship.

If, however, the lights are incorporated as part of the act of worship (as in putting on a lazer light show, or using the lights to "set the mood", etc) then that would fall under the Scripture's regulation of worship.

And so on for everything.

[JoeBandy]

If, however, the lights are incorporated as part of the act of worship (as in putting on a lazer light show, or using the lights to "set the mood", etc) then that would fall under the Scripture's regulation of worship.

And so on for everything.

Most folks fail to realize that there is Scriptural regulations on worship. I am hoping to learn more on this subject. I think the "do what you feel" is unscriptural per Col 3:23.

[TakingDominion]

well..... just when this thread had a chance to become intellectual

Joe,

Did you watch the video of the older couple dancing at NAYC? I think ndavid posted it early in this thread. If you haven't watched it, it's worth your 30 seconds to view it.

If you did see it, do you see anything wrong with their worship? If you do, please explain.

If you don't have a problem with their worship, then you'll need to explain the anti-demonstrative position you've taken on worship.

I preached Sunday night and my title was "When your shout is louder than your adversary"... so I think you know where I stand on the issue :happydance

[Esaias]

Just gotta make sure there's clout in the shout, otherwise it's a strike out.

:)

[Esaias]

Let's have church, Bro Esaias can teach, Bro nDavid can lead worship, and then Bro Benincasa can tell funny stories and preach.

I wonder what an AFF camp meeting service would look like? :heeheehee

[JoeBandy]

Joe,

Did you watch the video of the older couple dancing at NAYC? I think ndavid posted it early in this thread. If you haven't watched it, it's worth your 30 seconds to view it.

If you did see it, do you see anything wrong with their worship? If you do, please explain.

If you don't have a problem with their worship, then you'll need to explain the anti-demonstrative position you've taken on worship.

I preached Sunday night and my title was "When your shout is louder than your adversary"... so I think you know where I stand on the issue :happydance

I would have walked out when you announce your title!! ok ok I don't know exactly what you preached. But going from the title I bet you had a lot of shout during service. This is the kind of thing I oppose. It does not matter how loud your shout is or high and often you jump or flail or dance. The notion that your adversary reacts to your shout is absurd. The notion that anything happens based entirely on our degree of praise takes away from "by HIS stripes we were healed"!!!! Was not there a person healed just by a shadow passing over?? If that does not tell you something I guess we are not even close in stance. It has always confused me when preachers pump and prime for demonstrative worship and say things like "if you want a miracle do this and such" and then turn around and preach the power of using the name of Jesus. I got news for ya ALL YOU NEED IS JESUS!!!!!

[Esaias]

I would have walked out when you announce your title!! ok ok I don't know exactly what you preached. But going from the title I bet you had a lot of shout during service. This is the kind of thing I oppose. It does not matter how loud your shout is or high and often you jump or flail or dance. The notion that your adversary reacts to your shout is absurd. The notion that anything happens based entirely on our degree of praise takes away from "by HIS stripes we were healed"!!!! Was not there a person healed just by a shadow passing over?? If that does not tell you something I guess we are not even close in stance. It has always confused me when preachers pump and prime for demonstrative worship and say things like "if you want a miracle do this and such" and then turn around and preach the power of using the name of Jesus. I got news for ya ALL YOU NEED IS JESUS!!!!!

In the "old days" you had to calm folks down. Now we gotta pump em up?

What does THAT tell us?

[JoeBandy]

I think there is a little brought out fact in Luke with the 10 lepers. All ten were cleansed because they asked ..only because they asked. But one was made whole because of a simple .. Thank You!!!! Let that sink in! Not because he ran laps around the building not because he dance the cha cha but because of a Thank You!

[Esaias]

I think there is a little brought out fact in Luke with the 10 lepers. All ten were cleansed because they asked ..only because they asked. But one was made whole because of a simple .. Thank You!!!! Let that sink in! Not because he ran laps around the building not because he dance the cha cha but because of a Thank You!

The problem is you seem to be arguing that people should NOT be exuberant in their praise. Hannah prayed under her breath and was heard, but that by no means one should NOT lift up their voice and cry aloud.

[n david]

It does not matter how loud your shout is or high and often you jump or flail or dance. The notion that your adversary reacts to your shout is absurd.
Glad you weren't with the Israelites when Joshua or Gideon led them.

"""And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.

So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city."""

"""When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.

And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon."""

I don't believe Paul and Silas were whispering songs and praise when the jail was shaken, the doors opened and chains fell off.

"""And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed."""

That's some praise!

[JoeBandy]

The problem is you seem to be arguing that people should NOT be exuberant in their praise. Hannah prayed under her breath and was heard, but that by no means one should NOT lift up their voice and cry aloud.

I guess my argument is more about it being used to gauge a service or sincerity or spirituality. About the necessity of such demonstration to control a move from God. IMO it has become more about this hype than anything. There is no substance and these acts of worship are more emotionalism being pumped from a popular music leader or minister. This is why tons of individuals have that low on Tuesday morning or Friday night and feel like they "jussstttt gotta make it till Sunday till I can be in church. This is Churchism and emotionalism.

[Esaias]

I guess my argument is more about it being used to gauge a service or sincerity or spirituality. About the necessity of such demonstration to control a move from God. IMO it has become more about this hype than anything. There is no substance and these acts of worship are more emotionalism being pumped from a popular music leader or minister. This is why tons of individuals have that low on Tuesday morning or Friday night and feel like they "jussstttt gotta make it till Sunday till I can be in church. This is Churchism and emotionalism.

Wouldn't the solution be balanced teaching on the subject, rather than urging everyone to pretend they were Lutherans?

[Jermyn Davidson]

The praise which was being conducted in the early church is found in Psalm 150:4. 1 Corinthians 14:26 gives the order of those who led the congregation in singing, and the word.

The earliest believers were Jews and I am sure they would have responded in praise and worship on the Day of Pentecost in the same way they had already practiced.

For them, as it us for us, the GOD of the OT is the GOD and SAVIOR of the NT.

Jehovah has become our Salvation. Jehovah Saves. Jesus.

[Esaias]

BTW, I agree there is a lot of hype going on. We got better music and worse marriages, more polished preaching and more blatant immorality, higher education and lower standards, and deeper feeling and shallower consecration. Padded pews and no callouses on the knees.

Probably time for a shakeup...

[n david]

I guess my argument is more about it being used to gauge a service or sincerity or spirituality. About the necessity of such demonstration to control a move from God. IMO it has become more about this hype than anything. There is no substance and these acts of worship are more emotionalism being pumped from a popular music leader or minister. This is why tons of individuals have that low on Tuesday morning or Friday night and feel like they "jussstttt gotta make it till Sunday till I can be in church. This is Churchism and emotionalism.
I might be inclined to agree with the parts in bold. Some have made it about emotionalism. Does that discount the shout or dancing or leaping for joy? Absolutely not.

I have had more than a few times where praise brought me through a trial or attack of the enemy.

Again, you are welcome to praise God as you wish - face down and prone, but do not tell me that I cannot be as demonstrative as David in my praise. Do not claim that the only way to meet God is face down and prone. Do not insult and make light of the demonstrative praise which brought me out of valleys and through trials in my life.

There is no scripture stating "Thou shalt only praise God face down and prone." There are scriptures about clapping, dancing, shouting, singing, crying out, leaping, etc.

[n david]

BTW, I agree there is a lot of hype going on. We got better music and worse marriages, more polished preaching and more blatant immorality, higher education and lower standards, and deeper feeling and shallower consecration. Padded pews and no callouses on the knees.

Probably time for a shakeup...
I agree.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I would have walked out when you announce your title!! ok ok I don't know exactly what you preached. But going from the title I bet you had a lot of shout during service. This is the kind of thing I oppose. It does not matter how loud your shout is or high and often you jump or flail or dance. (1)The notion that your adversary reacts to your shout is absurd. (2) The notion that anything happens based entirely on our degree of praise takes away from "by HIS stripes we were healed"!!!! Was not there a person healed just by a shadow passing over?? If that does not tell you something I guess we are not even close in stance. (3) It has always confused me when preachers pump and prime for demonstrative worship and say things like "if you want a miracle do this and such" and then turn around and preach the power of using the name of Jesus. I got news for ya ALL YOU NEED IS JESUS!!!!!



(1) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood... Praise and worship to God can indeed be an act of spiritual warfare. The pattern for this mindset is found in the Old Testament. We are to learn from the Old Testament and live in the New Testament.



(2) Praise and worship are expressions of faith. Faith without works is dead. Besides, no one ever suggests that the reason why God didn't do X, Y, and Z for you is because you didn't yell loud enough on that one Sunday night.

Still, "According to your faith be it unto you..." Praise and worship and even prayer are expressions of faith. Blind Bartimaeus did not sit by the road using mental telepathy to get the attention of Jesus. All we can do is pattern our selves and our actions off what we see in the Bible.



(3) Jehovah delivered the Israelites' enemies into their hands after a day's battle, but during that battle, the Israelites prevailed against their enemies only as Moses held his hands raised. When Moses got tired, Aaron and Hur supported Moses and helped him to keep his hands raised. Ever wonder why we raise our hands? Ever wonder why that at the altar, you will see some precious saints holding the hands up of a saint or sinner trying to pray through to breakthrough? Do you not realize that in those moments, spiritual battles are being fought?


The Bible is chock full of instances in the Old Testament that we can learn from and apply to our lives today as we live our lives under the Gospel of the New Covenant that God has made with mankind.

[aegsm76]

JB - I think a better question would have been does God approve of this kind of worship.
Well, a friend of ours 16-17 year old daughter started praising God with the shout and dance on Thursday night of Peak in Tulsa.
She has been on chemo drugs for over 3 years due to rheumatoid arthritis and had just been diagnosed this year with a partially paralyzed stomach.
Well, somewhere in her praising and worship (which was amazing that she could even do, as she has had trouble even walking and eating solid food), God healed her.
Now, you just go tell her that God does not approve of her shouting and dancing...

[n david]

JB - I think a better question would have been does God approve of this kind of worship.
Well, a friend of ours 16-17 year old daughter started praising God with the shout and dance on Thursday night of Peak in Tulsa.
She has been on chemo drugs for over 3 years due to rheumatoid arthritis and had just been diagnosed this year with a partially paralyzed stomach.
Well, somewhere in her praising and worship (which was amazing that she could even do, as she has had trouble even walking and eating solid food), God healed her.
Now, you just go tell her that God does not approve of her shouting and dancing...

Hey, I saw a video on FB of her giving that testimony! God is good! :happydance

[Amanah]

I guess my argument is more about it being used to gauge a service or sincerity or spirituality. About the necessity of such demonstration to control a move from God. IMO it has become more about this hype than anything. There is no substance and these acts of worship are more emotionalism being pumped from a popular music leader or minister. This is why tons of individuals have that low on Tuesday morning or Friday night and feel like they "jussstttt gotta make it till Sunday till I can be in church. This is Churchism and emotionalism.

I think the problem might be a lack of daily devotions, if you don't have a daily time of prayer, bible reading, and worship, then you are going to drag in service to service.

[Scott Pitta]

How we worship is influenced by our culture. Hmong Pentecostals worship differently than Russian believers in St. Petersburg. Pentecostals in Guatemala worship differently that Wisconsin Pentecostals.

People respond to the move of God differently. Each individual is unique. Our personal response is also unique.

I do not judge how people respond to God. I notice it, as a cultural anthropologist might observe it. But I do not condemn different responses to the moving of the Spirit.

[n david]

Back in the 90s, I watch a few videos of Bro. Billy Cole in Ethiopia.

I remember one scene in particular where the churches were welcoming the missionaries and evangelists to Ethiopia. There was a long line of local believers singing and leaping as they sang. It was very enthusiastic and demonstrative.

In other portions during the service, I saw several prostrate on the ground. Others leaping for joy. The praise and prayers from the crowd was a deafening roar.

I don't believe I saw anyone running, though the size of the crowd was such that there wasn't room for running.

[JoeBandy]

How we worship is influenced by our culture. Hmong Pentecostals worship differently than Russian believers in St. Petersburg. Pentecostals in Guatemala worship differently that Wisconsin Pentecostals.

People respond to the move of God differently. Each individual is unique. Our personal response is also unique.

I do not judge how people respond to God. I notice it, as a cultural anthropologist might observe it. But I do not condemn different responses to the moving of the Spirit.

Prolly what I should do!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Prolly what I should do!

Snake Handlers in West Virginia do a thing called clogging.

[Evang.Benincasa]

In the "old days" you had to calm folks down. Now we gotta pump em up?

What does THAT tell us?

I must live in the old days. :happydance

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think there is a little brought out fact in Luke with the 10 lepers. All ten were cleansed because they asked ..only because they asked. But one was made whole because of a simple .. Thank You!!!! Let that sink in! Not because he ran laps around the building not because he dance the cha cha but because of a Thank You!

I know of brothers that would run the backs of the pews. Sister Kristi Harris (wonderful wife of Brother Frank Harris) was in Brother Frank Stevens church in Mountain View Arkansas. There was a brother there who would jump and run with his eyes close right down the backs of the pews. He did it all in slick cowboy boots. I have seen a sister spinning in praise around the pews with eyes closed. As far as anyone doing the boot scootin boogie or the cha cha I guess that is how those pieces of dry toast perceive what's going on. Down at the First Church of Rusty Brillo they are swaying with the signing troop, following the white gloves holding sticks.

[Esaias]

Snake Handlers in West Virginia do a thing called clogging.

Flatfootin, brother! Occurs in Texas, too. :happydance

[JamesGlen]

When the lyrics of our so called apostolic worship songs (Freedom) are yelling out "I'm going to spin wilder than before!!" and "Ive got to scream louder than before!"...


Please overlook our foolishness, Lord.

[Esaias]

I know of brothers that would run the backs of the pews. Sister Kristi Harris (wonderful wife of Brother Frank Harris) was in Brother Frank Stevens church in Mountain View Arkansas. There was a brother there who would jump and run with his eyes close right down the backs of the pews. He did it all in slick cowboy boots. I have seen a sister spinning in praise around the pews with eyes closed. As far as anyone doing the boot scootin boogie or the cha cha I guess that is how those pieces of dry toast perceive what's going on. Down at the First Church of Rusty Brillo they are swaying with the signing troop, following the white gloves holding sticks.

You know its gonna be a good meeting if there's a hardwood floor instead of carpet.

:D

[Evang.Benincasa]

You know its gonna be a good meeting if there's a hardwood floor instead of carpet.

:D

I wear cowboy boots. :D

[houston]

When the lyrics of our so called apostolic worship songs (Freedom) are yelling out "I'm going to spin wilder than before!!" and "Ive got to scream louder than before!"...


Please overlook our foolishness, Lord.

Do you know the classic "I'm A Pentecostal" by CLC?

[JamesGlen]

Do you know the classic "I'm A Pentecostal" by CLC?

Yes.
Please forgive our arrogance too, Lord.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yes.
Please forgive our arrogance too, Lord.

That does it! I will no longer eat while I'm posting. Jediwill, Esaias, and now JamesGlen. I laughed so hard that I almost passed a peanut butter sandwich through my nose. :lol

[Amanah]

changed my mind

[votivesoul]

When I come home from work, my oldest child says "Hi, dad".

My second oldest comes to the door, jumping a bit and smiling, and says "Hey, Daddy!".

My next oldest runs to the door screaming, completely naked (he's 2), pushing everyone and everything else out of the way to be the first to the door, so he can open it for me. Fighting and hitting are not uncommon if someone else is in his way.

My next, the newborn, is just quietly enjoying his mother's milk or asleep in his stroller or etc.

[Amanah]

time lapse UPC service done decently and in order.

https://www.facebook.com/lenwaith/videos/10208241621233012/

[TakingDominion]

I would have walked out when you announce your title!! ok ok I don't know exactly what you preached. But going from the title I bet you had a lot of shout during service. This is the kind of thing I oppose. It does not matter how loud your shout is or high and often you jump or flail or dance. The notion that your adversary reacts to your shout is absurd. The notion that anything happens based entirely on our degree of praise takes away from "by HIS stripes we were healed"!!!! Was not there a person healed just by a shadow passing over?? If that does not tell you something I guess we are not even close in stance. It has always confused me when preachers pump and prime for demonstrative worship and say things like "if you want a miracle do this and such" and then turn around and preach the power of using the name of Jesus. I got news for ya ALL YOU NEED IS JESUS!!!!!

Hey bro, you didn't answer my question regarding the old couple in the video. What gives?

[TakingDominion]

Glad you weren't with the Israelites when Joshua or Gideon led them.

"""And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.

So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city."""

"""When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.

And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon."""

I don't believe Paul and Silas were whispering songs and praise when the jail was shaken, the doors opened and chains fell off.

"""And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed."""

That's some praise!

Brother NDavid, I used all three of these scripture settings Sunday night! We had an old fashioned Pentecostal shout down Sunday night. I don't think you need to shout it out every service, but I worry for Pentecostals that NEVER shout it out.

Some nights the preacher comes to the pulpit with a shout in a his spirit. It's the preacher's Godly duty to obey the Spirit. :highfive

[JamesGlen]

Old fashion pentecost....just like recorded all throughout the book of Acts and in the Epistles.(right along side of how the New Testament tithing system works, and how we ought to glorify the building we meet In and call it God's house).


I've got to spin wilder than before! They probably didn't know what a "real" church meeting was like back then.

[Bill E Goat]

I think true worship is enjoying Gods creation. Hunting and fishing then cooking and eating!!

[TakingDominion]

Old fashion pentecost....just like recorded all throughout the book of Acts and in the Epistles.


I've got to spin wilder than before! They probably didn't know what a "real" church meeting was like back then.

Hey bro, are you writing these responses out on your animal skin scrolls? :blah

I think if Paul and Silas walked into a Sunday night Pentecostal worship service, they might say, "hey this reminds me of that old jail cell!"

He set me free yes He set me free. He broke the bonds of prison for me. I'm glory bound my Jesus to see for glory to God He set me free!

I was GLAD when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord.

O MAGNIFY the Lord WITH me, let us EXALT His name together. I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears!!!

[JamesGlen]

Hey bro, are you writing these responses out on your animal skin scrolls? :blah

I think if Paul and Silas walked into a Sunday night Pentecostal worship service, they might say, "hey this reminds me of that old jail cell!"

He set me free yes He set me free. He broke the bonds of prison for me. I'm glory bound my Jesus to see for glory to God He set me free!

I was GLAD when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord.

O MAGNIFY the Lord WITH me, let us EXALT His name together. I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears!!!


Amen to the magnifying....


If they walked into some of our Sunday night services, they would look at us all the way most other denominations do, like we are a bunch of crazy nuts.

Maybe you believe Paul and Silas had spinning screaming freaking out fits, when they gave praise to our Lord?
Singing songs, lifting up praise etc is one thing....

As to your Old Testament Gods house verse by David, out of all 4 places in the Epistles in the new covenant writ, the house of God referred to the assembly of believers,(ecclessia) not a single one of the 4 refer to a glorified man made building (which no longer houses God btw). Why is that? Stephen the first martyr explained it.

[n david]

Hey bro, are you writing these responses out on your animal skin scrolls? :blah

I think if Paul and Silas walked into a Sunday night Pentecostal worship service, they might say, "hey this reminds me of that old jail cell!"

He set me free yes He set me free. He broke the bonds of prison for me. I'm glory bound my Jesus to see for glory to God He set me free!

I was GLAD when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord.

O MAGNIFY the Lord WITH me, let us EXALT His name together. I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears!!!

:shockamoo

[n david]

When I come home from work, my oldest child says "Hi, dad".

My second oldest comes to the door, jumping a bit and smiling, and says "Hey, Daddy!".

My next oldest runs to the door screaming, completely naked (he's 2), pushing everyone and everything else out of the way to be the first to the door, so he can open it for me. Fighting and hitting are not uncommon if someone else is in his way.

My next, the newborn, is just quietly enjoying his mother's milk or asleep in his stroller or etc.
This is either really deep and I'm missing the relation to the thread, or this was posted on the wrong thread. :lol

I do notice a bit of a trend from the oldest to youngest. Hope no 2 year old saints start streaking in the church! :shocked:

[JamesGlen]

I hereby temporarily interrupt this regularly scheduled program of a thread, with a break for some quality praise music. :)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fA35Ved-Y

[Esaias]

Amen to the magnifying....


If they walked into some of our Sunday night services, they would look at us all the way most other denominations do, like we are a bunch of crazy nuts.

Maybe you believe Paul and Silas had spinning screaming freaking out fits, when they gave praise to our Lord?
Singing songs, lifting up praise etc is one thing....


Do you rejoice in the Lord in a Biblical manner? Are you fervent in spirit?


Fervent prayer and worship:
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; (Romans 12:11)
(fervent: zeō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to boil with heat, be hot
1a) used of water
1b) metaphorically
1b1) used of boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad etc.
1b2) fervent in spirit, said of zeal for what is good)

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)
(effectual fervent: The Greek word (ἐνεργουμένη energoumenē) would be better rendered by the word energetic, which indeed is derived from it. The word properly refers to that which has power; which in its own nature is fitted to produce an effect. It is not so much that it actually does produce an effect, as that it is fitted to do it. This is the kind of prayer referred to here. It is not listless, indifferent, cold, lifeless, as if there were no vitality in it, or power, but that which is adapted to be efficient - earnest, sincere, hearty, persevering. - Barnes' Notes)
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. (Psalm 5:11)
be joyful = ‛âlats
aw-lats'
A primitive root; to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be joyful, rejoice, triumph.
Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart. (Psalm 32:11)
rejoice = gı̂yl gûl
gheel, gool
A primitive root; properly to spin around (under the influence of any violent emotion), that is, usually rejoice, or (as cringing) fear: - be glad, joy, be joyful, rejoice.
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1Peter 1:8)
ye rejoice = agalliaō
ag-al-lee-ah'-o
properly to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly).

[Esaias]

He Aint Never Done Me Nothing But Good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a85_sOHK2cM

[JoeBandy]

This is either really deep and I'm missing the relation to the thread, or this was posted on the wrong thread. :lol

I do notice a bit of a trend from the oldest to youngest. Hope no 2 year old saints start streaking in the church! :shocked:

Its relating how 4 different kids react to the same father.

[JoeBandy]

Amen to the magnifying....


If they walked into some of our Sunday night services, they would look at us all the way most other denominations do, like we are a bunch of crazy nuts.

Maybe you believe Paul and Silas had spinning screaming freaking out fits, when they gave praise to our Lord?
Singing songs, lifting up praise etc is one thing....

As to your Old Testament Gods house verse by David, out of all 4 places in the Epistles in the new covenant writ, the house of God referred to the assembly of believers,(ecclessia) not a single one of the 4 refer to a glorified man made building (which no longer houses God btw). Why is that? Stephen the first martyr explained it.

agree

[JamesGlen]

Some more real genuine good old fashion Pentecost right here. Just like on the day of Pentecost, and continuing all throughout the book of Acts, where we find our foundation, that no other can lay.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IviOGt68ipk

[Esaias]

Some more real genuine good old fashion Pentecost right here. Just like on the day of Pentecost, and continuing all throughout the book of Acts, where we find our foundation, that no other can lay.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IviOGt68ipk


Fervent prayer and worship:
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; (Romans 12:11)
(fervent: zeō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to boil with heat, be hot
1a) used of water
1b) metaphorically
1b1) used of boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad etc.
1b2) fervent in spirit, said of zeal for what is good)

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)
(effectual fervent: The Greek word (ἐνεργουμένη energoumenē) would be better rendered by the word energetic, which indeed is derived from it. The word properly refers to that which has power; which in its own nature is fitted to produce an effect. It is not so much that it actually does produce an effect, as that it is fitted to do it. This is the kind of prayer referred to here. It is not listless, indifferent, cold, lifeless, as if there were no vitality in it, or power, but that which is adapted to be efficient - earnest, sincere, hearty, persevering. - Barnes' Notes)
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. (Psalm 5:11)
be joyful = ‛âlats
aw-lats'
A primitive root; to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be joyful, rejoice, triumph.
Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart. (Psalm 32:11)
rejoice = gı̂yl gûl
gheel, gool
A primitive root; properly to spin around (under the influence of any violent emotion), that is, usually rejoice, or (as cringing) fear: - be glad, joy, be joyful, rejoice.
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1Peter 1:8)
ye rejoice = agalliaō
ag-al-lee-ah'-o
properly to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly).

[houston]

He Aint Never Done Me Nothing But Good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a85_sOHK2cM

Stahp it.

[houston]

Some more real genuine good old fashion Pentecost right here. Just like on the day of Pentecost, and continuing all throughout the book of Acts, where we find our foundation, that no other can lay.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IviOGt68ipk

You also stahp it. Esaias posted this some time ago. It's my go to video when I am home sick.

[Esaias]

Stahp it.

Come home, come home!
You who are weary come home!

[Scott Pitta]

I know many a man who prefers to pray in the woods or on the water over praying in a church.

[Esaias]

I know many a man who prefers to pray in the woods or on the water over praying in a church.

That man needs to pray through. Then he'll prefer to pray alongside his brothers and sisters. :thumbsup

[houston]

Come home, come home!
You who are weary come home!

If there was a place nearby...

[Jermyn Davidson]

I know many a man who prefers to pray in the woods or on the water over praying in a church.

I have had some amazing prayer sessions at the beach, New Smyrna Beach to be exact, late at night-- my Lord and I.

The prayer room, the bedroom, the beach, a rooftop outside of San Juan-- all great places to have a prayer meeting with the Lord.

[Esaias]

If there was a place nearby...

Surely there's an apostolic, Holy Ghost church in H-town?

[n david]

If there was a place nearby...

Surely there's an apostolic, Holy Ghost church in H-town?

"546 Results Found"

[Amanah]

Saturday morning some time past midnight. Probably not frequent enough for you all.

:happydance

[votivesoul]

If there was a place nearby...

There is a place nearby. It's YOU. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you. The church is the household of the Lord, so make your heart God's home, and you'll never long for another home outside of Him.

[houston]

"546 Results Found"

No. I'm not going to visit 546 churches. So you know how long that would take?

I have visited a few. Bethel is too far. I like Royalwood. I live down the street... but they are too big.

Can't believe I'm going to post this... I want to attend a small old time holiness Pentecostal church. :/ daheq.

There's a small country church some miles down the old highway. Maybe I'll check them out.

[houston]

There is a place nearby. It's YOU. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you. The church is the household of the Lord, so make your heart God's home, and you'll never long for another home outside of Him.

I've been in Houston for 5 yrs 8 months. I visited a church for a few short months before moving to the opposite side of the city. I was re-baptized there because... well, we won't go there right now.
Anyway, I believe that the pastor used to post here.

[Esaias]

No. I'm not going to visit 546 churches. So you know how long that would take?

I have visited a few. Bethel is too far. I like Royalwood. I live down the street... but they are too big.

Can't believe I'm going to post this... I want to attend a small old time holiness Pentecostal church. :/ daheq.

There's a small country church some miles down the old highway. Maybe I'll check them out.

First Apostolic Church in Highlands. Can't remember the pastor but he used to run with Old Paths (remember him?), brother Epley knows him. Went there for a homecoming service or something. Not as big as Royalwood but still a bit too big for me, personally.

Pentecostals of Crosby on hwy 90, was started by brother Madden (who baptized me back in 91 when he was pastor of Life Tabernacle, Clear Lake). Don't know who the pastor is currently, but there not that big.


There's a UPC in Channelview off of Sheldon Rd just north of I-10, never been there don't know anything about em.

[houston]

There's a small country church some miles down the old highway. Maybe I'll check them out.


Pentecostals of Crosby on hwy 90, was started by brother Madden (who baptized me back in 91 when he was pastor of Life Tabernacle, Clear Lake). Don't know who the pastor is currently, but there not that big.

Same.

http://pentecostalsofcrosby.worthyofpraise.org/about-us/staff/

[consapente89]

Church in Highlands has great leadership!

[Esaias]

Church in Highlands has great leadership!

Sister can play the organ something fierce.

:thumbsup

[peter83]

I watched a few clips from NAYC17 and noticed several tweets relating to the crowds actions as true Apostolic worship. I totally disagree. Although I am and was raised UPC I never have believed in the typical run, dance, swing from the ceiling fan type worship. Is there a scripture reference in the NT that shows the apostles doing this type worship? I have a few scriptures I will post later that I believe is against this type.

NO is not! And generally to speak ,there is not even ever mentioned music in the new testament (however is not forbidden)
Go to a trinitarian Pentecostal, charismatic , prosperity gospel church and you will see similar things.
While worship is a good thing! I dont believe makes us apostolic.

[Costeon]

I was at NAYC 17. It was one of the most powerful experiences of the presence of God I have ever experienced. I was so thankful to be able to share it with my 15 year old son, who was so moved as well. It was extraordinary seeing so many thousands jumping and dancing--and the greatest thing was several of the stadium workers received the Holy Spirit during the services.

There is almost nothing in the NT actually describing a church at worship. The closest we get I suppose is 1 Cor. It apparently was pretty lively, and in some respects out of order, so Paul corrects them. (On another note, it's unfortunate that apostolic Pentecostal churches in general have neglected the Lord's Supper, which was clearly a central part of the Corinthians worship, and by extension the early church's worship.)

If we limited ourselves to only worship practices found in the NT, we would be limited indeed.

The NT does not repudiate the exuberant worship we see in the Psalms--indeed which is commanded in the Psalms. Other aspects of OT worship were declared over (sacrifices, for example) because they were fulfilled in Christ. Without the NT repudiating the worship of the Psalms, it seems we are right to attempt to follow the pattern of the Psalms.

[Esaias]

If we limited ourselves to only worship practices found in the NT, we would be limited indeed.

The NT does not repudiate the exuberant worship we see in the Psalms--indeed which is commanded in the Psalms. Other aspects of OT worship were declared over (sacrifices, for example) because they were fulfilled in Christ. Without the NT repudiating the worship of the Psalms, it seems we are right to attempt to follow the pattern of the Psalms.

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/biblicalworship4.pdf

[Aquila]

Personally, I believe all expressions of worship should be embraced and respected. I see no issue with running, dancing, singing, shouting, clapping, rocking out with the instruments, etc. Nor do I see anything wrong with silent prayer, meditation, contemplative prayer, soaking prayer, etc..

Glorify God in all that you do. Our differences in approach enrich the kingdom, they do not take away from it.

That's my opinion.

I belong to a house church. We have times of worshipping aloud and times wherein we worship and pray silently. We often stand and worship aloud, with hands raised. We speak in tongues. We clap. We pray aloud. We mainly sing hymns. Sometimes someone will play a guitar if he brought it. We've also come together to have more quiet contemplative prayer and/soaking prayer. We can be a more "quiet" bunch. But that's why I like it. We've even had times of gathering wherein we've had silent worship, much like what you might see in a Quaker gathering. Personally, I can only take so much screaming, yelling, "bang-clang-boom" music, and noise. But, please don't get me wrong, I don't judge those who feel like more exuberant forms of worship are their style. In fact, I encourage them. Whatever brings you closer to experiencing and getting to know Jesus, that's what I support.

[Michael The Disciple]

If worship had been like this when I was a young person I would have begged my folks to take me to Church.

Jon Thurlo ONE THING 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NminOnt8E8E

[Esaias]

If worship had been like this when I was a young person I would have begged my folks to take me to Church.

Jon Thurlo ONE THING 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NminOnt8E8E

An alt-rock concert? Van Halen put on a better show by far. And Judas Priest was even better than them.

People have substituted entertainment for worship, lighting and "atmospherics" for the presence of God, and feelings for the power of God. Thus, here we are, 21st century religion, Bread and Circus Worship "Experiences" to suit every taste and want, and a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord.

[Esaias]

Jon Thurlow and his buddy Todd White:

Jon Thurlow One Thing 2016 (with Todd White) - AN…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpa6NJeV_bY

[Michael The Disciple]

An alt-rock concert? Van Halen put on a better show by far. And Judas Priest was even better than them.

People have substituted entertainment for worship, lighting and "atmospherics" for the presence of God, and feelings for the power of God. Thus, here we are, 21st century religion, Bread and Circus Worship "Experiences" to suit every taste and want, and a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord.

I know of no more glorious and heavenly worship. I doubt this side of heaven it will be found.

And so how much time did you watch this before pronouncing your judgment? Not much would be my guess.

[Esaias]

I know of no more glorious and heavenly worship. I doubt this side of heaven it will be found.

And so how much time did you watch this before pronouncing your judgment? Not much would be my guess.

Are you serious? The guy is deep in bed with heretics and charlatans, and somehow there's nothing more glorious this side of heaven? Its mood music and emotionalism, Jesus is your boyfriend effeminate soft-rock concert standard TBN type stuff.

:smack

[Esaias]

True worship is in Spirit and Truth, not psychological catharsis induced by mind manipulating music and concert effects.

Jesus had no form or comeliness that we should desire Him (according to the flesh) but IHOP and most modern religious "worship" is designed to do exactly that - appeal to the flesh, sensuality, and sense perceptions, producing an emotional INTOXICATION. It's the wine of Babylon and a standard part of ancient Baal worship. It's all about "revelling" in the "worship experience", it's the religious equivalent of firing 15cc heroin up the mainline and nodding off into "euphoria" FOR ITS OWN SAKE.

God doesn't need a million dollar extravaganza, He can knock you out of the ballpark into the third heaven WITH NO INPUT FROM YOU WHATSOEVER. And the difference? The Holy Ghost changes you to be more like Him, brings Truth and Reality into your life. He doesn't lead you into pining away for the flesh pots of Egypt or into worshipping an ecstatic form of worship.

The whole 60s music movement ruined humanity's ability to unplug from the matrix.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jon Thurlow and his buddy Todd White:

Jon Thurlow One Thing 2016 (with Todd White) - AN…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpa6NJeV_bY

Once Todd White gets out of the way the rest of this is glorious. Even in this which is a bit tainted by TW'S shameful hair style I have personally never seen the glory and majesty of God being proclaimed in such manner in an "Apostolic" Church.

[Michael The Disciple]

True worship is in Spirit and Truth, not psychological catharsis induced by mind manipulating music and concert effects.

Jesus had no form or comeliness that we should desire Him (according to the flesh) but IHOP and most modern religious "worship" is designed to do exactly that - appeal to the flesh, sensuality, and sense perceptions, producing an emotional INTOXICATION. It's the wine of Babylon and a standard part of ancient Baal worship. It's all about "revelling" in the "worship experience", it's the religious equivalent of firing 15cc heroin up the mainline and nodding off into "euphoria" FOR ITS OWN SAKE.

God doesn't need a million dollar extravaganza, He can knock you out of the ballpark into the third heaven WITH NO INPUT FROM YOU WHATSOEVER. And the difference? The Holy Ghost changes you to be more like Him, brings Truth and Reality into your life. He doesn't lead you into pining away for the flesh pots of Egypt or into worshipping an ecstatic form of worship.

The whole 60s music movement ruined humanity's ability to unplug from the matrix.

Same thing Baptists say about Pentecostals. Amen?

It's all about "revelling" in the "worship experience", it's the religious equivalent of firing 15cc heroin up the mainline and nodding off into "euphoria" FOR ITS OWN SAKE.

So you think that to all that are blessed by this glorious and majestic worship of Jesus they are just listening to and what you call "revelling"
in it just FOR ITS OWN SAKE?

Again thats precisely what the Evangelicals accuse Pentecostals of. Im ok with some of the Baptist/Pentecostal songs but to me they are not even close to the heavenly wonder I have felt in the more modern praise and worship.

[Aquila]

Small minds demand that we all think alike.

[Esaias]

Once Todd White gets out of the way the rest of this is glorious. Even in this which is a bit tainted by TW'S shameful hair style I have personally never seen the glory and majesty of God being proclaimed in such manner in an "Apostolic" Church.

Dude. Todd White and company IS IHOP. Are you hearing your own words? "Once the pope gets out of the way..."????

I am surprised. False teachers, false prophets, charlatans and hucksters, producing THE most spiritual, divine, glorious true worship of God?

Can you not see the ridiculousness of the claim?

[Michael The Disciple]

Dude. Todd White and company IS IHOP. Are you hearing your own words? "Once the pope gets out of the way..."????

I am surprised. False teachers, false prophets, charlatans and hucksters, producing THE most spiritual, divine, glorious true worship of God?

Can you not see the ridiculousness of the claim?

Todd White does not attend IHOP.

[Esaias]

So, brother Michael, you love and admire and esteem the worship music of an heretical cult? The heretics really know how to worship God meanwhile the actual churches of God just haven't a clue and don't appeal to you? Heretics can touch the throne (™) and bring down the glory while God's people are just clueless? So, God has raised up all these false teachers and false profits and con artists to bring in Real Divine True Worship© and His church is just left to suck eggs?

How is it that you cannot see the absurdity of such a position?

[Esaias]

Todd White does not attend IHOP.

No, he's their bff and speaks at their "conferences". They endorse him and he endorses them, and the guy you posted, Jon Thurlow, thinks he's great.

[Esaias]

Jesus told us what worship is in Matthew 15:9. Worship is a matter of CORRECT DOCTRINE, not muh feelz and muh tingles.

[Esaias]

I mean it would be NO DIFFERENT than an apostolic claiming the Roman Church's Novus Ordo Mass is the ABSOLUTE BEST WORSHIP OF GOD PERIOD this side of heaven. I mean, look! Even the statues weep at the beauty and majesty of the divine worship!

[Esaias]

Same thing Baptists say about Pentecostals. Amen?



So you think that to all that are blessed by this glorious and majestic worship of Jesus they are just listening to and what you call "revelling"
in it just FOR ITS OWN SAKE?

Again thats precisely what the Evangelicals accuse Pentecostals of. Im ok with some of the Baptist/Pentecostal songs but to me they are not even close to the heavenly wonder I have felt in the more modern praise and worship.

I have felt

Muh feelz. Modern religion. There it is right there.

[Esaias]

Worship isn't about what makes us "feel" anything. It's about proclaiming and manifesting the TRUTH OF GOD.

[Esaias]

God doesn't want us to seek out worship that makes us "feel" religious and spiritual. He wants us to worship Him in Spirit and Truth, and get our feelz lined up with the Word.

[Esaias]

The silence is deafening...

[jediwill83]

The silence is deafening...

I no longer seek out feelings in worship

[Aquila]

Worship isn't about what makes us "feel" anything. It's about proclaiming and manifesting the TRUTH OF GOD.

I'd add that if one doesn't "feel" it, it's just as lifeless as a Catholic Mass.

[Aquila]

Feelings were designed in us by God. While we can't live entirely by feelings, to insist that one must not feel is dehumanizing.

There must be a balance.

[Aquila]

Why are we beating up a brother over the style of music or songs that opens his soul to feel given spiritual realities that draw his focus towards the Lord? I'm sure he doesn't agree with the words or message of every song.

Here's a recording of worship as Jesus and the Apostles would have known it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEFM_eQw3ZM_xYvuyi7IkezjoThhP77pe&v=--UABwqW9Sg

[houston]

Are you really asking “why?”

[houston]

Im ok with some of the Baptist/Pentecostal songs but to me they are not even close to the heavenly wonder I have felt in the more modern praise and worship.
:throwrock

[Esaias]

Feelings were designed in us by God. While we can't live entirely by feelings, to insist that one must not feel is dehumanizing.

There must be a balance.

Use the Schwartz and open your mind to the fact that NOBODY said "we must not feel."

[Esaias]

I'd add that if one doesn't "feel" it, it's just as lifeless as a Catholic Mass.

Which is why you are deceived. If you don't "feel it" means you personally don't care for it. But, behold, God is not bound by your personal "feelings". Whether you " feel it" or not is 110% irrelevant to whether or not there is spiritual life in "it". At best it might indicate you are the one with no life or spiritual perception. Our feelings are no gauge of whether something is of God, or not, or acceptable to Him, or not, or desired by Him, or not.

[houston]

Man... if I went by what I didn’t feel...

[Esaias]

Notice: on the one hand "we are not to be directed by our feelings". But on the other hand, " if you don't feel it then it's as lifeless as a catholic mass."

This is what Orwell called doublethink, and what is generally known as cognitive dissonance.

[Esaias]

Where are the Bible verses stating that "worship must make me feel a certain way or else it is vain and worthless and needs an upgrade"? Or anything remotely approaching that idea?

[houston]

Where are the Bible verses stating that "worship must make me feel a certain way or else it is vain and worthless and needs an upgrade"? Or anything remotely approaching that idea?

Nowhere to be found. Some churches push you to do acts of worship until you feel something. Where I’m from we had to create an atmosphere. “Create an atmosphere for God to move” was repeated from the pulpit all the time.

[Michael The Disciple]

So, brother Michael, you love and admire and esteem the worship music of an heretical cult? The heretics really know how to worship God meanwhile the actual churches of God just haven't a clue and don't appeal to you? Heretics can touch the throne (™) and bring down the glory while God's people are just clueless? So, God has raised up all these false teachers and false profits and con artists to bring in Real Divine True Worship© and His church is just left to suck eggs?

How is it that you cannot see the absurdity of such a position?

Do I love and admire the worship from IHOP and some other Charismatic groups? Yes. Are they a heretical cult? In some things yes. Does that mean their praise music is cursed?

Where do YOU draw the line for yourself? While IHOP teaches heresy on the Godhead, new birth and immortal soul, what about Apostolics?

By and large they teach just about as much heresy as IHOP.

Heresies which you yourself acknowledge.

Pre trib. Instant Heaven at death, burning in fire for trillions of years in immortality?

You would say non Sabbath keeping is heresy would you not?

So do you think you feel the anointing or presence of the Holy Spirit when someone who teaches these things that YOU consider heresy?

Do you find yourself shouting and doing a Pentecostal jig when those who believe such things are doing their worship?

[Esaias]

Do I love and admire the worship from IHOP and some other Charismatic groups? Yes. Are they a heretical cult? In some things yes. Does that mean their praise music is cursed?

Where do YOU draw the line for yourself? While IHOP teaches heresy on the Godhead, new birth and immortal soul, what about Apostolics?

By and large they teach just about as much heresy as IHOP.

Heresies which you yourself acknowledge.

Pre trib. Instant Heaven at death, burning in fire for trillions of years in immortality?

You would say non Sabbath keeping is heresy would you not?

So do you think you feel the anointing or presence of the Holy Spirit when someone who teaches these things that YOU consider heresy?

Do you find yourself shouting and doing a Pentecostal jig when those who believe such things are doing their worship?

I do not go so far as to claim that heretics who can't even tell you how to be born again have The Best Worship This Side of Heaven™, that's for sure.

[Aquila]

I love the hymn, Great Is Thy Faithfulness. Especially the one by, Selah.

[Aquila]

I do not go so far as to claim that heretics who can't even tell you how to be born again have The Best Worship This Side of Heaven™, that's for sure.

I'm sure it rained cats and dogs somewhere last week.

[Esaias]

I'm sure it rained cats and dogs somewhere last week.

Yes, here. Thought it was going to go from cats and dogs to mice and frogs.

[Esaias]

Do I love and admire the worship from IHOP and some other Charismatic groups? Yes. Are they a heretical cult? In some things yes. Does that mean their praise music is cursed?

Did I say their music was cursed? Nope, I sure didn't.

Where do YOU draw the line for yourself? While IHOP teaches heresy on the Godhead, new birth and immortal soul, what about Apostolics?

Apostolics don't teach heresy. Apostolics teach the faith and practice of the apostles. Not all oneness Pentecostals are apostolic.

By and large they teach just about as much heresy as IHOP.

I'm sure IHOP teaches every heresy that you could find in a UPC church, PLUS a lot more, like trinitarianism, easy believism, etc PLUS their cultic behavior PLUS their mind-manipulating atmospheric worship methods.

So do you think you feel the anointing or presence of the Holy Spirit when someone who teaches these things that YOU consider heresy?

There is no anointing to teach heresy except what comes from a strong God-sent delusion, or that which is according to the working of satan. I don't judge "anointing" by my emotional state, feeling, or by supposed physical sensations, tingles, shivers, etc. Either the Word is proclaimed faithfully and the Spirit blesses people to believe and receive the Word, which results in "signs following" to confirm the Word, or there's a problem.

Do you find yourself shouting and doing a Pentecostal jig when those who believe such things are doing their worship?

My expressions of praise do not depend on who's doing what, and neither should yours. They should instead reflect your response to God and His majesty.

[peter83]

Which is why you are deceived. If you don't "feel it" means you personally don't care for it. But, behold, God is not bound by your personal "feelings". Whether you " feel it" or not is 110% irrelevant to whether or not there is spiritual life in "it". At best it might indicate you are the one with no life or spiritual perception. Our feelings are no gauge of whether something is of God, or not, or acceptable to Him, or not, or desired by Him, or not.

Αμεν! I spoke with some oneness people that participate in that kind of worship and they are almost like charismatics! When they see people falling down, running, laughing, walk like dogs etc. they think "Here is the presence of God"!!!!

Of course feelings are designed by God and we react with feelings in the presence of God. But not the opposite! In those circles they fallow feelings instinct of the Holy Spirit.
Again the Spirit doe not react to our feelings and worshiping atmosphere , but our feelings can react to the presence of God and the move of the Holy Spirit can make the atmosphere He wants.

People can be deceived those last times just because every one trust their one heart !

[peter83]

Does God accept whatever worship?

Who gives the "atmosphere" in the church? The Spirit or the people?

Does our worship move the Spirit? or the Spirit move our worship?

Does our feelings influence the presence of God? or the presence of God change our feelings?


When i was in the world i loved rock n roll music! I liked the rhythm, the melody , the dancing etc. Now in Christ i dont listen anymore to this kind of music.
Is it best to give up this kind of music for God?
Or is best to just bring that music i loved to the church and change the lyrics?

[Aquila]

Yes, here. Thought it was going to go from cats and dogs to mice and frogs.

My point was that I believe the words, "The Best Worship This Side of Heaven", was just a personal idiom. Sure, he likes it a lot. But I'm sure he doesn't mean that it is literally true in every sense. I get the impression that he just likes their style of worship music.

[Aquila]

Which is why you are deceived. If you don't "feel it" means you personally don't care for it. But, behold, God is not bound by your personal "feelings". Whether you " feel it" or not is 110% irrelevant to whether or not there is spiritual life in "it". At best it might indicate you are the one with no life or spiritual perception. Our feelings are no gauge of whether something is of God, or not, or acceptable to Him, or not, or desired by Him, or not.

One thing I do know is that such heavy and condemnatory criticism over a brother's taste in worship music isn't warranted, nor is it of God. I also know that division over such things certainly isn't acceptable to God. God desires that we be united in the bonds of sincere brotherly love, not our taste of worship music.

[Aquila]

Notice: on the one hand "we are not to be directed by our feelings". But on the other hand, " if you don't feel it then it's as lifeless as a catholic mass."

This is what Orwell called doublethink, and what is generally known as cognitive dissonance.

I'm sure you expected that to make sense.

Man is body, soul, and spirit. God gave man emotions as an aspect of the soul. Emotions serve us well, but we are not to serve our emotions. I believe we are to sincerely "feel" and "experience" God, life in Christ is more than mental ascent to head knowledge. To feel and to experience God is perhaps the greatest joy of being human. Are we to just always follow our feelings? No. But I believe it would be worse not to allow one's self to feel at all.

God is sovereign. God can speak through a donkey, certainly God can speak through a song sung by one. I know of an individual who was moved to weep before God and surrender all their cares and anxieties as they listened to the song, "Bridge Over Troubled Water". Why? Though he had heard the song dozens of times before, at that moment, he felt the Spirit of God speaking to Him through the song. If it is used by the Spirit to draw one's focus and intention towards Christ, why judge?

When you're weary, feeling small,
When tears are in your eyes
I will dry them all
I'm on your side
Oh when times get rough
And friends just can't be found

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

When you're down and out
When you're on the street
When evening falls so hard
I will comfort you
I'll take your part
Oh when darkness comes
And pain is all around

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

Sail on, silver girl
Sail on by
Your time has come to shine
All your dreams are on their way
See how they shine
Oh if you need a friend
I'm sailing right behind

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will ease your mind
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will ease your mind

Songwriters: PAUL SIMON

[Michael The Disciple]

There is no anointing to teach heresy except what comes from a strong God-sent delusion, or that which is according to the working of satan. I don't judge "anointing" by my emotional state, feeling, or by supposed physical sensations, tingles, shivers, etc. Either the Word is proclaimed faithfully and the Spirit blesses people to believe and receive the Word, which results in "signs following" to confirm the Word, or there's a problem.

Maybe I was unclear. Im not saying anything about feeling the anointing when heresy is taught. I meant to ask you if you think you feel the anointing when Oneness Pentecostals aka "Apostolics" who teach heresy get going with their worship.

Apostolics don't teach heresy. Apostolics teach the faith and practice of the apostles. Not all oneness Pentecostals are apostolic.

And who pray tell are these present day Apostolics who are NOT teaching any heresy? Im waiting to hear this and have spent the last 37 years looking for them?

I'm sure IHOP teaches every heresy that you could find in a UPC church, PLUS a lot more, like trinitarianism, easy believism, etc PLUS their cultic behavior PLUS their mind-manipulating atmospheric worship methods.

Ahhh so if you teach a lesser number of heresies its ok to get into their praise and worship?

Did I say their music was cursed? Nope, I sure didn't.

It certainly seems like you are implying it.

You did not really answer my question. Is it wrong for one like myself to think that some "Charismatic" praise and worship is more spiritual than Oneness Pentecostal praise and worship?

I thought thats what this thread was all about? Do you get blessed by music that is written or performed by persons or groups who teach heresies? Is that ok for you but not someone else?

Present the great music and worship style you think we should be enjoying!

[Aquila]

Where are the Bible verses stating that "worship must make me feel a certain way or else it is vain and worthless and needs an upgrade"? Or anything remotely approaching that idea?

True worship is full of emotion and feeling. It is passionate and powerful. It might be demonstrative, it might be more still. But the emotion is there, burning under the surface.

The Psalms are a good place to start. They are filled with emotion. Emotions that erupt in praise, adoration, love, and thanksgiving. Emotions that often illicit feelings of dismay, grief, shame, guilt, and godly sorrow. Some are also filled with joy! And yes, some are filled with a red hot righteous indignation. The Psalms are so very emotional, only the spiritually numb could read them and claim that they aren't. One doesn't need a Scripture saying, "Thou shalt feel your worship." One need only to see in the numerous examples in Scripture wherein worship is indeed, felt. I believe that heartfelt worship is the truest form of worship. One need only experience such worship for themselves to immediately realize how dead, lifeless, and powerless is obligatory worship that is void of feeling or emotion truly is. Worship is more than going through motions like a lifeless robot.

Sincere worship will indeed bring a change in our perspective and attitude. Sometimes, when I'm feeling down, I worship. A sincere act of worship will often encourage my downcast soul and turn my entire day around. It can help me gain a more "God-centered" perspective wherein my problems suddenly seem so small compared to my God. Dare I say it? If worship doesn't move you... it surely isn't moving God.

Psalm 42:11
11 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.

1 Samuel 30:6
And David was greatly distressed; for the people spake of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and for his daughters: but David encouraged himself in the Lord his God.

Let's not condemn the role of emotion in worship... simply to build a platform from which to attack a brother who feels emotional, blessed, or encouraged by music or artists we'd personally not prefer. Attacking, condemning, and hurting the feelings of a brother over something so based on individual personal preference and taste is far more serious an offense than one's preferred style of music could ever be.

I don't think Michael has deserved the heat you've given him. In all honesty, I think you should apologize. However, I can't say I'm convinced that in your current emotional state you will.

Father, bring us to a spirit of brotherly love and understanding. Help us to understand that our differences are indeed our strengths. Help us see how our differences actually glorify you. For the most beautiful garden is filled with flowers of many different shapes, sizes, and colors. Help us to see ourselves as one in spirit, though we might be different in regards to personal preference. Bring us into a unity of spirit through your abiding Holy Spirit. In Jesus' name. Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

Peter

Αμεν! I spoke with some oneness people that participate in that kind of worship and they are almost like charismatics! When they see people falling down, running, laughing, walk like dogs etc. they think "Here is the presence of God"!!!!

THAT KIND OF WORSHIP? Falling down? Running? Laughing? Walk like Dogs?

Examine the videos I have put on this forum. There are MANY of them. Except for "laughing" you will find NONE of these other things.

And yet I have seen all of these if we would change "walking like dogs" to "barking like dogs" in Pentecostal Churches.

[peter83]

THAT KIND OF WORSHIP? Falling down? Running? Laughing? Walk like Dogs?

Examine the videos I have put on this forum. There are MANY of them. Except for "laughing" you will find NONE of these other things.

And yet I have seen all of these if we would change "walking like dogs" to "barking like dogs" in Pentecostal Churches.

Υes i did not said this for you!
Nor i show such things at apostolic churches. But i say that i speak with many oineness people who accept those manifestations and if that ...they are ready to be deceived one day. They are vloseest to the danger of accepting an other spirit i mean.
I am not a close mind person, neither i think that no trinitarian will be saved. But i strong believe we must test the spirits.

Amen . God bless you.

[Aquila]

THAT KIND OF WORSHIP? Falling down? Running? Laughing? Walk like Dogs?

Examine the videos I have put on this forum. There are MANY of them. Except for "laughing" you will find NONE of these other things.

And yet I have seen all of these if we would change "walking like dogs" to "barking like dogs" in Pentecostal Churches.

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

My expressions of praise do not depend on who's doing what, and neither should yours. They should instead reflect your response to God and His majesty.

I would say exactly the same thing to you.

[Michael The Disciple]

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

Of the boldened I am sure.:highfive

[Aquila]

It's important not to judge one another too harshly.

For example, I know a brother who started getting into incense and votive candles when praying at home. He had what looked like a little altar with a picture of Jesus, candles, and incense. I saw it. I smiled and said, "So... you getting in touch with your Catholic roots?" He got all serious and defensive and said, "No. It just helps me feel more focused and deliberate in my prayers." I said, "Well... I guess that never hurts.", and laughed. And that was the last I said about it.

I think it was a few months later that I saw some really nice candles at a thrift store and I thought of him. So, I bought them for him. No, not to encourage his new Catholic flare. But to inoffensively open the conversation. When I saw him, I said, "Hey, I saw these candles and I thought you might be able to use them on your little altar thingy." He looked at them and smiled. He said, "I haven't really been burning candles or incense for some time now. I just needed to do something different, break up the monotony. I helped me feel more focused and spiritual. But after a while, I felt like I rediscovered that part of me that approached God with spiritual awe in my prayers and devotions." I smiled said, "So, you're not going to start taking Instructions down at St. Anthony's?" He laughed and said, "No way! Bro, I'm NOT Catholic!" I chuckled and said, "Whew. I just wanted to make sure." We then went out to eat and just talked about the Lord for a while.

I've learned that people aren't static. They go through things. They go through changes. They go through development. And at times, especially when it concerns spiritual things, the things people go through can seem downright weird. We do well not to cast a judgment before hearing the entire matter. I know that the times I've made a total heel out of myself has typically been when I judged prematurely. It's one of my human flaws. I think it's something many of us struggle with.

So, Michael enjoys worship music from some "charismatic" church. So what? If he's blessed by it and feels it sincerely expresses how he feels towards God, let it be. It's not something worth condemning him over.

I'm certain that you blessed little "heresy hunters" could find something worth burning me at the stake over in my worship practices. As I've mentioned, I not only believe in clapping, singing, praying aloud, praying in tongues, etc... but I also have been deeply blessed silent worship such as what one might experience in a Quaker meeting. It was my short sojourn with my Quaker friends that taught me that God isn't limited to only being experienced in the loud and thunderous demonstrations of worship...but He can also be experienced in the silence. Sometimes, even more deeply in the silence.

This led me to study forms of more silent worship in a more in depth manner. I discovered "contemplative prayer" and "soaking prayer" (often said to be the same, but in actuality they are rather different). As I studied these forms of prayer, I realized that I'd engaged in these forms of prayer for many years, going all the way back to the first Apostolic church I attended.

We'd have family prayer on Tuesday nights. Sometimes I'd get down between the pews and get into a place in my time of prayer wherein I didn't say a word. A single image, thought, song, person, or verse of Scripture would become my focus and in the silence I'd rest my soul and just allow whatever it was that had become my focus to fill my thoughts. I'd pray short silent prayers in accordance. At times the Holy Spirit would fill the prayer room so powerfully, we'd all be speaking in tongues, clapping, weeping, shouting, etc. until we became exhausted and found ourselves prostrate on the floor, laying in the pews, or face planted in the altar. I remember after a mighty move of the Spirit I was on the floor of the sanctuary with tears soaking my face and my shirt. I was laying on my stomach speaking in tongues and worshipping, giving God things I was struggling with, and then a peace came over me that brought me to silence. I felt Him. He was in the very room with us. I can't describe the feeling. It was like I was almost terrified to open my eyes and look up. He... was... there. Truly filling the sanctuary. The Creator of all things was manifesting His power and glory in that church in Dayton, Ohio. I was at a loss for words. It was like the reality of His presence was overwhelming to my mind. It was all my mind could do was silently repeat in my head, "He is here. He is here. He is here." I was trembling all over. I wasn't cold, but it was that kind of trembling that you can't help. And while I know how it sounds, I felt the very sandaled feet of Jesus walking closer to me. He stood over me for maybe two minutes as I lay there, my mind overwhelmed with "IT IS HIM. IT IS HIM." And suddenly I felt these words impressed upon my mind... "You are my son and I am your Father." I lost it and began weeping like a baby. And as quickly as it had begun, it all subsided.

Here's a little background. I had always struggled because my father abandoned us when I was only 2 years old. My father wouldn't visit or pick me up for visitations. He's promise to be there and not show up. On those times that he did pick me up, it was like my world was in living color. I was with my dad. But he failed me more times than not. At 16 years old I saw him for about an hour. It would be 25 years before I'd see him again, only to bury him a year later. Growing up with this experience caused me to have serious trust issues. Some can promise me that they'll be there for me, but I don't believe them. I just don't. I don't turn to them. I figure that they won't be there in the long term, so why bother? This has caused me quite a bit of grief because it hinders me from developing deep and lasting friendships. I'm okay with women. I trust women. But when it comes to teachers, pastors, friends, etc., I just don't really trust them as far as I can throw them. And sadly, it effected my walk with Christ. I felt condemnation no matter what I did. I felt like I was never good enough. The constant fear of missing the rapture (I believed in the rapture at that time) overwhelmed me. I just knew He was going to come for everyone in church... but me. He'd leave me standing there with my bags and high hopes... just like my dad did. It took my Sr. Pastor bringing this to my attention. He gave me this verse to focus on:

Psalm 68:5
A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

Those words shattered me as soon as my pastor had me read them, "A father... to the fatherless.", that's me. And so my healing began. I had a father... a Heavenly Father. A Father that promised to never leave me, nor forsake me.

And so, that is the background. You can imagine the raw emotion and near primal wailing and weeping that erupted from me when I heard the Lord say, "You are my son, and I am your Father." They say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I can testify that words do hurt. They often hurt deeper than bruises ever could. But the good news is that words can also heal. With those words, my soul was healed.

It was maybe 15 years later that on a fluke of strange circumstances I reconnected with my dad. He was older now. We talked. He felt so much shame and sorrow for not being there for me. I was able to forgive and we had some great times. A year later, he passed away, the result of a heart attack. Being the next of kin, I buried him in the VA cemetery (he was a Vietnam vet). My emotional healing was complete. My relationship with my father restored. And honor returned to our family. God is so good.

Soaking in the Lord's presence, just "being" with Him, can change you. For me, it eases anxieties and fears. It also refreshes and awakens me to a greater understanding of the reality of His abiding presence. Contemplating truths of Scripture can open up a text to more meaningful and personally experiential realities. For example, I contemplated the symbol of Christ returning on a white horse. You know, the one from Revelation 19 where a sword is protruding out of His mouth. During that contemplative prayer session the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying, "I still ride." As I contemplated that, some awesome realizations began to pour upon me. Christ still rides in victory, overcoming all His enemies. One day, as I contemplated the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (same chapter in Revelation), my contemplative prayers moved into a deeper understanding of the Lord's Supper of all things. Now, one can judge, condemn, and criticize me. But the living experience I gain from the practice is so more enriching than the typical prayers I was used to praying. Not that I don't pray typical prayers any longer, it's just that contemplative prayer and soaking prayer have filled in those gaps that typical supplicative prayer left in my life.

I said all that to say this... personally experiencing God in our minds and emotions is a part of having a personal relationship with Him. It isn't enough to only know the relationship others had with Him thousands of years ago as found in Scripture, we must know Him ourselves, personally. And the ways and manners He can be known and experienced is as varied as the people who know and experience Him. That being so, we do well not to judge one another so harshly over such things.