Apostoic worship??

[KeptByTheWord]

Has anyone here listened to Selah's Greatest Hymns album? Believe it or not, that's still my personal favorite to worship to around the house. lol

*Disclaimer. Indications of liking any album, song, or track produced by Selah doesn't indicate a knowledge of, or agreement with, any theological position held, or implied, by Selah or any label, advertiser, distributor, associated fan base, or house of worship associated with Selah or any member therein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NChRAD1-z_s&list=PLbkud7iK_0YVCwoX2dUWCJgGuzP_amkgA

I love Selah's composition and style too! :thumbsup

[KeptByTheWord]

I've read through part of this drama thread, not all. I've seen enough to know it is the typical go-round... and I too wonder what it is exactly that makes the Holy Ghost work in a person's heart through the music, is the music, the song, the person singing it, the atmosphere, the people??? A combination of all of the above...

Yet when someone sings How Great Thou Art or Amazing Grace or Down From His Glory... how can you not worship the Creator, our Lord?

Myself, I am SO SICK AND TIRED of all the Jesus boyfriend love songs, it makes me gag almost to hear them. And those "Jesus on the mainline" kind of songs from an endless Pentecostal song service will get to you after a while too.

I think that we've got to focus our hearts on the Lord himself, who He is, and not just sing about how he makes us "feel".

[KeptByTheWord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uTN5Pj7T0

If this song don't make you wanna shout, well... ;)

[houston]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jt5r1ypcKo

Heeey.... I viewed this vid last Sunday night at work :happydance

[houston]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ito9qSh_gI

I miss these services. :)

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAV8pZ_Al8E&ab_channel=StepOne0922

[houston]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAV8pZ_Al8E&ab_channel=StepOne0922

Yes, Lord!

[Aquila]

Chris, mocking me getting burned on a lit stove by a drunken stepparent?
Chris, you are a phony, place me on ignore. You want to play Christian, robed in saffron, soaked in peity? Have at it, just don’t blow your smoke towards me, because I’ll tell you the truth.

If I've given you the impression that I think I'm pious and robed in saffron, I apologize. I'm actually quite the battered ship, but the anchor holds.

I think if we're both completely honest, we will both admit that we've said things to one another that we shouldn't have said. Whether it was mocking and denying the reality of PTSD, or mocking the reality of an instance of abuse from one's childhood. Please allow me to openly tell you that I'm sorry. I became upset that you mocked the pain I carry and so, I mocked yours. It wasn't right. I shouldn't have done that. I've prayed that God forgive me and put it under the blood. I've also prayed that you and I find that missing element that will allow us to actually see one another clearly for who we truly are and not as the cartoon-like characters we go round and round trying to beat up. The real EB isn't the EB that I've been attacking, it is a mischaracterization. The real Aquila isn't the Aquila you've been attacking, it too is a mischaracterization. Our humanity has muddied the waters. And while we might disagree on various points, I do believe we might find that we actually agree on quite a lot. In some ways, while of different opinions on various matters, our personalities are similar. We're both wordy. And we're both rather fixed in our confidence. And... well... truth be told... we both can be abrasive. But that abrasiveness isn't always a bad thing. Like sandpaper it can smooth over our rough edges.

I don't know how to word it right EB. I want to extend an olive branch of peace. But I want to explain my desire to do so in a way that is respectful to you and doesn't lend itself to being misunderstood. In this, I wish I knew exactly how to word it.

I'm not putting you on ignore. I don't think you've said anything to warrant that.

There was a time when our differences were not taken so personally. I miss those days. One man put it this way, he explained how a Pre-Trib believer might laugh with a Post-Trib brother and say, "Look, I expect to be Raptured before the Tribulation. So, I'll leave you a note on where to find my storage of food and toilet paper to help you through the Tribulation." They took their differences in stride. They understood that a brother with another opinion, experience, or conviction was still a brother on account of God having filled him with the Spirit and his having been baptized in the name of Jesus.

For example, Michael believes in Soul Sleep. I don't. While certainly only one of us can be right about that teaching, I don't doubt Michael's sincerity or salvation.

So, I want you to know that while we've differed on various standards, teachings, and practices... I don't doubt your salvation. I'm sure that when we get to Heaven, we'll both find that we were each right on some things and wrong on others. But the one thing we will realize is that we are of one spirit, for it is the Holy Spirit abiding in us, not another, and we are one spirit with Him (II Corinthians 6:17).

What has troubled me most about our conversation is not any of the differences we have... but our attitudes. I say OUR attitudes because I know I haven't always maintained the proper attitude with you. And I want to say I'm sorry.

So, how can I express my intentions to you in a way that it will be received? I truly want to mend this. I feel the LORD impressing upon me to make this right. So, here I am. I'm not perfect. I can be an idiot at times. But I'm trying. Can we somehow work this out? I think it would make the forum more enjoyable for both of us, and perhaps even others. Such contention shouldn't remain between brothers. Of course, I'm not asking you to be my best bud. I know I've probably said things that might take you some time to forgive me for. But, I'd like to find a way to put this tension, hostility, or whatever it is behind us.

Help me out here.

God bless and keep you and yours.

Chris

[Aquila]

Good grief, brother I know you can't be this dense. I am not looking at the singers at all except haphazardly. I am looking at the "worshippers". Half of them AREN'T WORSHIPPING AT ALL. Some are trying to worship, and that's great. But "soaking"? Please, brother, you have got to snap out of this crazy idea that reduces worship to just "good music"!!!!

Where's the emoticon that has me slapping some sense into you? Oh, here... :smack

Just for clarity, what should we be seeing them do so that we know that they are worshipping?

[Aquila]

I've looked at the Soaking Prayer thing, and as I said, Pentecostals have been doing this for generations. We just called it praise and worship. I think the Charismatics just labeled it "Soaking Prayer" for marketing purposes. lol

[Esaias]

Just for clarity, what should we be seeing them do so that we know that they are worshipping?

On this thread, I have twice posted a litany of Biblical examples of acts of worship. It is also in a link to a PDF that can be found in my signature line.

My main concern is the idea that worship is judged by music and how much we like the music, and the corresponding idea that worship can be measured by how much production goes into the "event". That in turns leads people and churches to attempt to structure "worship" around an ever increasingly complex production: mood lighting, fog machines, music specifically designed to create certain moods, etc. All focused on crafting an experience for the audience.

The whole paradigm is unbiblical and carnal from start to finish. It has nothing to do with a particular song or genre of music.

Also, "contemplative prayer" etc and "soaking" as promoted by those "ministries" devoted to such things is not Biblical or Pentecostal.

I am as Pentecostal as it gets. And I think a lot of what you have supported and promoted in this thread is definitely NOT Pentecostal nor is it analogous to traditional Pentecostal experiences. Which is why MOST traditional Pentecostals (both Oneness and trinitarian) want nothing to do with charismatic "soaking" or "contemplative prayer" and related practices.

I thought I had explained it pretty clearly multiple times.

[Aquila]

I've read through part of this drama thread, not all. I've seen enough to know it is the typical go-round... and I too wonder what it is exactly that makes the Holy Ghost work in a person's heart through the music, is the music, the song, the person singing it, the atmosphere, the people??? A combination of all of the above...

Yet when someone sings How Great Thou Art or Amazing Grace or Down From His Glory... how can you not worship the Creator, our Lord?

Myself, I am SO SICK AND TIRED of all the Jesus boyfriend love songs, it makes me gag almost to hear them. And those "Jesus on the mainline" kind of songs from an endless Pentecostal song service will get to you after a while too.

I think that we've got to focus our hearts on the Lord himself, who He is, and not just sing about how he makes us "feel".

To everything there is a season. I love old hymns. For me, they are timeless. But, I know others who fall asleep, become board out of their minds, and even feel out of touch if that's all that is accompanying worship. The "Jesus boyfriend love songs" are nice at times, but too much of it and I'll start wanting to hear How Great Thou Art and Great Is Thy Faithfulness after a while. Many might find it odd, but Amazing Grace has been worn out for me. Once I hear those familiar chords, I think, "Oh boy, here we go again." lol I can handle the "Jesus On the Main Line" stuff from time to time... especially if it is done with some gravely soulish voice.

I see music as a tool. It opens the soul and strikes a tone that brings the emotions to a place wherein listeners are in one accord emotionally. Lyrics help to focus the mind of everyone present on the subject. Being a tool, it can be used for good or for evil. It can be used to entertain, to manipulate, or to aid in worship. It's used in cinema, in advertising, in quacky cults, and religions. Music can effect behavior. Advertisers have learned that certain styles of music, and even certain songs that left the soul to a specific emotional place can boost sales. A local convenience store that was prone to being robbed and having seedy characters hanging out in front started playing classical music outside the front of the building. Interestingly the seedy characters became scarce and the number of robberies and attempted robberies dropped. I read somewhere years ago that a study played heavy metal for a group of mice. Those mice reacted with increased anxiety and violent behavior increased. They played classical music and they became more calm. I heard of a study that stated that if one plays classical music while a woman is pregnant, it will stimulate areas of the brain during development that can lead to fast development of cognitive behaviors.

And so, music itself is a tool. It is neither inherently good or bad. What makes a given style of music good or bad is it's intended purpose. Is it intended to manipulate or to assist? Is it used to manipulate or genuinely inspire? Is it used to manipulate or to truly motivate? For example, we read in II Chronicles 20:21 the singers and the musicians were sent marching forth out ahead of the army before battle. Try to picture it with me...

2 Chronicles 20:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.
21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the Lord; for his mercy endureth for ever.
22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.

I believe that the music must have been such that it not only focused the mind of those present on praising God for His eternal mercies, but it was probably of a style and tempo that made the average Israelite feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof. If that were so, it wouldn't be a bad thing because that was exactly what God desired of them, for He desired to give them the victory over their enemies.

If a worship service has songs that open the soul up to set an emotional expectancy or tone for deliverance, healing, worship, praise, love and adoration, spiritual war, etc. in accordance to God's will... it is used justly. However, if it is used to inspire people to a place of devotion just so the minister can manipulate the people to give more money, it is used unjustly. The music isn't the problem...it is how it is used.

Me personally, I'd rather meet in a small gathering, sing "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" a Capella, and worship the Lord more privately and intimately than meet with a large crowd of what feels like a staged production or concert. But that's just me. Some might feel just the opposite and that's okay.

Music and song isn't good nor evil. What makes it good or evil is how it is used.

That's just my opinion.

[Aquila]

On this thread, I have twice posted a litany of Biblical examples of acts of worship. It is also in a link to a PDF that can be found in my signature line.

Thank you for providing the link. I've read through it and it's good stuff. One thing stuck with me as I read it:

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm
100:2)

Here Paul speaks of:

Psalms
Hymns
Spiritual songs

This leaves me thinking that there's clearly more than one style and approach to musical worship and singing.


My main concern is the idea that worship is judged by music and how much we like the music, and the corresponding idea that worship can be measured by how much production goes into the "event". That in turns leads people and churches to attempt to structure "worship" around an ever increasingly complex production: mood lighting, fog machines, music specifically designed to create certain moods, etc. All focused on crafting an experience for the audience.

I agree with you quite a bit here. I don't see anything in Scripture about mood lighting or fog machines. I do believe that music, by its very nature, generates various moods and emotions. I don't see how this can be separated from music. Perhaps you can help me understand how it can be done. In my understanding, God ordained the use of music and song to be used as a tool when it comes to worship. Music isn't worship. However, music can be used as an aid to worship. Music can help focus the minds and emotions of the individuals present, bringing a greater corporate unity in worship.

I believe that the soul is the seat of emotion, will, and reason. I see my mind as just a single part of my nature. My brain is a tool with which I can process information. The mind provides a semi-emotional context for that information based on personal experiences, desires, etc. If I feel in my spirit that my mind isn't in the right place, I see nothing wrong with singing some spiritual songs, or playing some spiritual songs to bring my mind into greater harmony with my spirit, my inner man. It's a tool, knowing how to use it, manipulate it, clean it, reconstruct it, conform it, are challenges of the disciplined. Music can be an aid in some of these areas.

The whole paradigm is unbiblical and carnal from start to finish. It has nothing to do with a particular song or genre of music.

I see what you're saying. Much of it is unbiblical. But I don't think the entire paradigm is unbiblical. The purpose of music is to still and focus the mind and emotions that we might offer up praise, worship, and adoration in a more focused and unified manner.

Also, "contemplative prayer" etc and "soaking" as promoted by those "ministries" devoted to such things is not Biblical or Pentecostal.

I am as Pentecostal as it gets. And I think a lot of what you have supported and promoted in this thread is definitely NOT Pentecostal nor is it analogous to traditional Pentecostal experiences. Which is why MOST traditional Pentecostals (both Oneness and trinitarian) want nothing to do with charismatic "soaking" or "contemplative prayer" and related practices.

I thought I had explained it pretty clearly multiple times.

I'm sure you did explain it well. It's not you. It's most likely me. I'm reading what you're saying, but it doesn't resonate with my spiritual experience.

At Apostolic Lighthouse Church in Dayton Ohio they used to have family prayer on Tuesday nights. There was no "preaching". The doors were open and the lights in the sanctuary were dimmed. You were free to come in and find a seat on a pew, lay down in a pew, get down on your knees between the pews, lay prostrate between the pews, keel at the altar, or even lay prostrate before the altar. Whatever was comfortable for you or better expressed how you were feeling the Lord lead you. Nobody was going to beat anyone up if they felt more comfortable laying down in a pew as they prayed. For some, laying down eased tension and back pain from sitting all day at a desk. People were permitted to pray silently or to pray openly. One could pray in English or in tongues. One could even sing if they so desired, or even sing in tongues. It was only asked that one not be too loud or disruptive in a manner that drew attention from the Lord to themselves. One was free to walk the isles as they prayed. One was permitted to approach others and pray for them, even laying hands, if they felt led to do so. There were times wherein they played soft instrumental hymns. The muffled sound of prayers, groaning, tongues, and weeping, could be heard silently rising from the pews throughout the hour. It was your time with God to seek him as you felt led. You were encouraged to come even if you didn't feel like you needed prayer or to pray. Even if all you did was just to "bask in the presence of the LORD", you were encouraged to come. It was a time for healing, meditation, and prayer. It started at around 6pm and ended at around 7pm. At the end of the prayer service they'd fade the music and begin raising the lights. People would often stand and begin clapping and praising more exuberantly at this time. Many tear stained faces could be seen looking up with hands raised towards Heaven. The pastor would take the platform and join in the praise. He'd take the mic and guide us into more focused corporate prayer if someone was sick or in need. He'd share whatever thoughts the LORD had put on his mind during prayer. At times, there might even be tongues and interpretation. He'd welcome prayer requests and we'd take a moment to pray together for those requests. Any updates or church announcements were made. Then he'd close with a closing prayer. Most then prepared to go home, but those of us in the choir made our way to the platform because choir practice was about to start at 7:30. We'd have choir practice until between 8pm and 8:30pm (for special services we'd sometimes stay until 9pm) and then we closed in prayer and headed home.

That was Tuesday nights at the Apostolic Lighthouse. It was like that from the 1980's until well after the year 2007, which was when I left. All of this was long before the "soaking prayer" movement. And Pastor Shearer spoke of prayer meetings like these going all the way back to his childhood (which was like the mid to late 1920's and 30's).

Was what we were doing "soaking prayer"? I know we sure felt soaked in the Holy Ghost afterwards.

After learning about soaking prayer and experiencing it, the only difference I found was that it is a little more structured to suit distinct needs like healing, recovery, removing anxiety, faith building, etc.. And soaking prayer can be practiced in the privacy of one's home. (But then again, so can any form of prayer.)

So, from my perspective and experience, I've essentially been doing what they're calling "soaking prayer" since at least the mid 1980's until now. As a result, my experience in Pentecost makes all the statements you're making about it sound way out in left field to me.

[Aquila]

I remember Pastor Shearer talking about the "sweet aroma of Jesus" that saturated those who chose to spend time with God in prayer and meditation. Man, just talking about those prayer services makes me wish more Apostolic churches held those kinds of services today.

Pastor Shearer would sometimes tell us that our attendance on Sunday morning showed how popular the church was, our attendance on Sunday night showed how popular the preaching was, and our attendance on Bible study nights showed how popular the teaching was. But our attendance for Tuesday night prayer meetings showed how popular Jesus is.

[Aquila]

Correction:

I've looked at the Soaking Prayer thing, and as I said, Pentecostals have been doing this for generations. We just called it praise and worship. I think the Charismatics just labeled it "Soaking Prayer" for marketing purposes. lol

This post was meant to read:

I've looked at the Soaking Prayer thing, and as I said, Pentecostals have been doing this for generations. We just called it a prayer meeting. I think the Charismatics just labeled it "Soaking Prayer" for marketing purposes. lol

[Esaias]

Thank you for providing the link. I've read through it and it's good stuff. One thing stuck with me as I read it:

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm
100:2)
...
Music isn't worship. However, music can be used as an aid to worship. Music can help focus the minds and emotions of the individuals present, bringing a greater corporate unity in worship.


According to the Bible, the purpose of singing in church is for the purpose of teaching and admonishing one another. There is no mention of using music as a tool to generate or "focus" the emotions or feelings.

Does music affect the feelings? Of course. Sing Amazing Grace to its famous melody ("New Britain") and then sing it to the melody of Gilligan's Island. Obviously, a different effect is achieved.

BUT!

Paul did not speak of MUSIC, but of SINGING. This means the PRIMARY element is the singing. And the purpose is to teach (ie to transmit doctrine, Biblical truth). Now, one cannot sing without a melody of some sort, so music (melody, harmony, rhythm, etc) is necessary of course. But the musical score is only a tool to enable the singing. In a lot of contemporary worship music, the melody takes precedence.

One of the videos posted here is of a musician at IHOP. I read an interview he gave in which he stated he creates his melodies first, and then writes the lyrics to them. This indicates that his focus is on the music itself (hence one of his songs is filled up with verbal "doo dahs" without any actual words, thus without intellectual content). I'm not saying its wrong to have a melody and find words to go with it, I'm saying what is the priority? Transmission of truth requires a text (the words). If the text is primary (as it should be) then the music should be secondary, and fitted to the text. Thus, the text (truth) drives the music, not the other way around. Otherwise we wind up with vapid and inane songs, which are unfortunately filling the religious landscape and have been for over 50 plus years.

When our priorities are realigned with the Word, then we will put truth first, codify that truth into memorable and singable songs with expedient melodies, and our goal will be teaching, not crafting an "experience" of feeling. This in turn leads the assembly to mature into Scripture-directed worship and living and away from emotion-based and feeling-directed worship and living (what is called "sensuality" or directed by and for gratification of the senses.

ALL the great Christian music that has stood the test of time was written explicitly from that point of view, unlike almost all modern Christian music which is written from a viewpoint of creating a mood and an "awesome" melody, and then fitting a text to the music, in order to create a cool experience for the audience. There has been a shift in the theology of music in the last 100 years, and it has not been TOWARDS a more Biblical view.

As for feelings, music in the church is Biblically meant to be a vehicle for expressing Bible truth (doctrine), not a vehicle for creating feelings or "experiences". Now, one should certainly feel what they sing. And singing can bring you into the feelings expressed by the song. But we aren't to be LED by feeling, or follow feeling. And the music should reflect that truth.

Its like preaching. Preaching can produce feeling in the hearer (and speaker). And preachers ought to feel what they preach. But preaching and using preaching "tricks and effects" in order to whip up feeling in the audience just to create a response is not Biblical nor is it healthy, spiritually.

[mizpeh]

I'm sure you did explain it well. It's not you. It's most likely me. I'm reading what you're saying, but it doesn't resonate with my spiritual experience.

At Apostolic Lighthouse Church in Dayton Ohio they used to have family prayer on Tuesday nights. There was no "preaching". The doors were open and the lights in the sanctuary were dimmed. You were free to come in and find a seat on a pew, lay down in a pew, get down on your knees between the pews, lay prostrate between the pews, keel at the altar, or even lay prostrate before the altar. Whatever was comfortable for you or better expressed how you were feeling the Lord lead you. Nobody was going to beat anyone up if they felt more comfortable laying down in a pew as they prayed. For some, laying down eased tension and back pain from sitting all day at a desk. People were permitted to pray silently or to pray openly. One could pray in English or in tongues. One could even sing if they so desired, or even sing in tongues. It was only asked that one not be too loud or disruptive in a manner that drew attention from the Lord to themselves. One was free to walk the isles as they prayed. One was permitted to approach others and pray for them, even laying hands, if they felt led to do so. There were times wherein they played soft instrumental hymns. The muffled sound of prayers, groaning, tongues, and weeping, could be heard silently rising from the pews throughout the hour. It was your time with God to seek him as you felt led. You were encouraged to come even if you didn't feel like you needed prayer or to pray. Even if all you did was just to "bask in the presence of the LORD", you were encouraged to come. It was a time for healing, meditation, and prayer. It started at around 6pm and ended at around 7pm. At the end of the prayer service they'd fade the music and begin raising the lights. People would often stand and begin clapping and praising more exuberantly at this time. Many tear stained faces could be seen looking up with hands raised towards Heaven. The pastor would take the platform and join in the praise. He'd take the mic and guide us into more focused corporate prayer if someone was sick or in need. He'd share whatever thoughts the LORD had put on his mind during prayer. At times, there might even be tongues and interpretation. He'd welcome prayer requests and we'd take a moment to pray together for those requests. Any updates or church announcements were made. Then he'd close with a closing prayer. Most then prepared to go home, but those of us in the choir made our way to the platform because choir practice was about to start at 7:30. We'd have choir practice until between 8pm and 8:30pm (for special services we'd sometimes stay until 9pm) and then we closed in prayer and headed home.

That was Tuesday nights at the Apostolic Lighthouse. It was like that from the 1980's until well after the year 2007, which was when I left. All of this was long before the "soaking prayer" movement. And Pastor Shearer spoke of prayer meetings like these going all the way back to his childhood (which was like the mid to late 1920's and 30's).

Was what we were doing "soaking prayer"? I know we sure felt soaked in the Holy Ghost afterwards.

After learning about soaking prayer and experiencing it, the only difference I found was that it is a little more structured to suit distinct needs like healing, recovery, removing anxiety, faith building, etc.. And soaking prayer can be practiced in the privacy of one's home. (But then again, so can any form of prayer.)

So, from my perspective and experience, I've essentially been doing what they're calling "soaking prayer" since at least the mid 1980's until now. As a result, my experience in Pentecost makes all the statements you're making about it sound way out in left field to me.Sounds like you are simply drawing close to God.

[Esaias]

"Soaking" is not Pentecostal. It is Toronto Airport Vineyard stuff. Same group that gave the world "Holy Laughter and New Wine Revival" back in the 90s. What Aquila described as "prayer meeting" is not "soaking prayer".

[Esaias]

Mike Bickle, IHOP, and the Vatican together and having a great ole time! Watch, especially around the 3-5 minute mark when Mike Bickle is giving his testimony. This is what IHOP is actually about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVmJhb0UuF4

[Esaias]

Kenneth Copeland wants you to join with Kansas city IHOP at their ecumencial Kairos events:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVICzOtIB7k

[Esaias]

The whole modern "worship extravaganza" being promoted by IHOP, the Vineyard movement, and associated acts is designed to provide the motive force behind ecumenical reunion with the Vatican. Sounds like crazy conspiracy theory? No, the people promoting these events and this whole view of worship come right out and tell you what they are doing. Listen to the Kenneth Copeland video above (he was also a speaker at IHOP's Kairos 2017 event). Listen to how he describes the Protestant Reformation, and how he and all the other ecumenicalists describe the Roman Catholic church as simply a misunderstood branch of the body of Christ.

Never mind that the Roman Catholic Church is the CHURCH OF ANTICHRIST, responsible for the murders of MILLIONS of people who rejected the papacy's claims to authority over all believers. Never mind the out and out BAAL worship that is at the CORE of Vaticanism. Never mind the MILLENNIA of sexual perversion and deviancy (you name it) that has been a common feature of the priests, monks, and bishops. Nope, it's just a big ole church split and praise the Lord Kansas City IHOP and the "new thing God is doing in these days with worship" is bringing us all back together! Kumbayah pass the smores!

[Esaias]

Hillsong wants you to join together with the Vatican. And they say it is THE WORSHIP MUSIC that is driving this new "unity"! Can't people see what's going on? They themselves admit that the music is the driving and mobilising force behind the efforts at unity with Rome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDBBqn0Vdho

[houston]

Don’t touch hillsong

[good samaritan]

Wed. bible study class we discussed how that David wanted to build God a house. God answered David by Nathan asking him a question, "Did I ask you to build me an house". God never asked Israel to build him an house, in fact, God did not need them to build him seeing that God dwelleth not in temples made with mans hand. It is interesting to me, although God never asked for them to build an house he goes on to tell David that his seed would build that house (dual prophecy: Jesus/Solomon).

Now where this ties into this thread. David had a heart to worship God. He did not need instructions on how to worship, but he was constantly doing acts of worship. David wanted (freewill) to build the Lord an house. Although, Davids plans may have been a little misguided, his heart was spot on. The idea that we must have a scripture to instruct the exact protocol of worship and singing seems absurd. Although, there are many precedents in scripture of how people worshiped God, I don't think there was a wrong way. So long as it is not sinful or in the flesh.

BTW, following the bible study Wed. night, without music there was an atmosphere of worship among our adult class. People raised their hands and cried out to God in praise without any pumping, all because of what the Lord showed us in his word. People seen how that David looked for an oppurtunity to praise God. It is interesting how that when Saul became king he spent most of his time trying to secure his throne, but David on the other hand when he was officially coronated and established he felt like bulding God a house (throne). Saul was busy worrying about his own throne, but David was concerned about God's throne. David said he wanted to build God and house and then God said that he would build David and house. Isn't God awesome!!!

If we seek to please God, then He will bless and take care of us. Something is wrong when we need music to worship God. Instead we get to worship God with music. We need to get the horse back in front of the cart. Run, dance, shout,lay flat prostate, whatever we do, but we must do it from the heart to the glory of God. How can you not be demonstrative in worship when you are excited and joyous because of the God you serve.

[Esaias]

The idea that we must have a scripture to instruct the exact protocol of worship and singing seems absurd. Although, there are many precedents in scripture of how people worshiped God, I don't think there was a wrong way. So long as it is not sinful or in the flesh.



Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Therefore, there is no such thing as genuine faith that is not derived from the word of God. Our worship must be done in faith. Whatever is without faith, is sin. Therefore, our worship is sin if it is without faith. Which in turn means it must be biblical, indeed it must be biblically directed and biblically informed, otherwise it cannot be in faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

So, yes, we need to let God teach us how to worship him, and His divine revelation is the Bible. Therefore, our worship must be Bible based and Bible derived and Bible compliant.

The Spirit is not given in order to justify us in doing whatever we feel like doing. The Spirit is given in order to lead us and guide us into all truth ("Thy word is truth" Jesus said). The Spirit is given to direct our heart and life, empowering us to live a life of God manifestation. Meaning the life of God manifesting in and through our life, our actions, our worship, everything we do. The Spirit enables us to experience what the Bible reveals.

There most certainly are wrong ways to worship God. Jesus said the Pharisees' worship was in vain, it was empty, pointless, useless, and unacceptable to God. Why? Because they taught as doctrine the commandments of men. In other words, they took their own ideas and taught them as though they were the ideas of God, acceptable to God, the proper method to serve God, etc. That man-made worship of God is declared by Jesus to be vain. He said they were hypocrites, they honoured God with their mouths but their hearts were far away from God. Why? What determined that to be the case? It was because their religion, their worship, was man created, it was not God created. It was man directed, not God directed. It was of man, not of God.

What is "of God"? that which God has revealed through His word. It must be this way, because apart from the Scripture there is no way to identify what is truly of God.

Our salvation must match the salvation described in the Bible. Our faith must match the faith described in the Bible. Our worship, likewise, must match the worship described in the Bible.

Otherwise, we are just doing our own thing and presuming God is pleased with it, with no evidence such is actually the case.

The rest of your post was spot on.

[Aquila]

"Soaking" is not Pentecostal. It is Toronto Airport Vineyard stuff. Same group that gave the world "Holy Laughter and New Wine Revival" back in the 90s. What Aquila described as "prayer meeting" is not "soaking prayer".

Here's a short description of how to enter into soaking prayer. Can you elaborate on what makes the prayer meetings I described different from soaking prayer?

How to Soak in God’s Presence

“Jesus says, ‘Ask and you will receive’. We’re very good at the asking part but how about the ‘receiving’? If we are the ones who are dong all the talking, it’s a pretty one-way conversation. Soaking is the listening part of our conversation with Him. It’s laying aside time to lie down and receive from Him.” --CTF Ministries

“When we discipline ourselves to behold Jesus in every circumstance, a transformation occurs. We learn how to sit, wait and watch for Him every day. The Holy Spirit teaches us about face-to-face, personal adoration; it comes from a worship that flows from a place of rest. When we sit at Jesus’ feet and just be, as Mary did, we behold Him. Worship cannot come out of striving, but out of stillness. Spending time with God gives us a touch from Him - this touch is such a pleasure that it will cause a spirit of adoration to well up in us, and overflow.” --Graham Cooke

There is joy in the life of those who practice soaking prayer. It’s time to lay your burdens at the feet of Jesus. It’s time to find rest for your soul in 2007. It’s time to be still and know that He is God. It may take a little effort to quiet your racing thoughts, but it’s well worth the effort. Let Him lead you beside still waters. Take time to meditate on the following Scriptures:

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).

“The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul” (Psalms 23:1-3).

”When it comes to real devotion, come with nothing to do except to sit and learn how to wait, rest and be. Be still. Fill your mind with Jesus. Faith and stillness are sustenance for your spirit, so learn to focus on Jesus. When your mind wanders off, bring it back. Retrain it; it’s had years of having its own way. Renewing your spirit and your mind is exciting and has incredible fruit. Worship becomes natural for you, and the peace of God wells up in your heart. God’s perspective can be seen more quickly.” --Graham Cooke”

• Find a quiet place - A peaceful environment helps you to become peaceful on the inside.

• Listen to worship music - You may want to use quiet instrumental or quiet worship music. There is so much good soaking music available (www.soaking.net is an excellent resource).

• Quiet down your busy thoughts - Initially your thoughts can be racing all over, but know that the Lord is with you. Turn your attention to Him. Wait for your thoughts to settle.

• Invite the Holy Spirit to come and soak you in His presence - Surrender your mind, body and soul in prayer to the Holy Spirit. Humble yourself before Him.

• Focus on the Lord’s presence - Open your heart to God. You are learning to abide in Him. You are learning to focus on Him and His presence.

• Rest in faith and believe that God is working within you - It isn’t about what you can accomplish through your efforts; it’s about what God is doing in you.

• Give time to soaking in God’s presence - The more time you can spend in His presence, the better. Start with 20 minutes in His presence. You will find as you do this, in a very short time you will want to spend more time in His presence.

• Watch as God changes you - You will leave refreshed and full of the Holy Spirit. Your life will be different because God is changing you through soaking in His presence. You will have an impact on the world around you as you carry God’s presence with you wherever you go.

“Intimacy with God is the key to fruitfulness in every area of our lives. As we become more aware of His presence in us… so do other people. As we become more affected by His presence in us… so do those around us. By taking time in the secret place with God, we start to walk by the spirit in everyday life. We find that rather than striving to achieve things for God, He is building His kingdom through us.” --CTF Ministries

Begin today by soaking for at least 20 minutes in God’s presence. Practice the above points and watch what God does. Soaking prayer will have a transforming effect in your life.

“Soaking is a dedication: ‘God, this is time just for you.’ Soaking is an invitation: ‘God, do what you want to in me.’ Soaking is an expectation: ‘Thank you, Father, for what you are accomplishing as I rest in you.’ We come to Him like little children believing that He has good things for us. ‘If you then know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him.” --CTF Ministries

Together in the Harvest,


Here's a short video on soaking prayer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdMjfc7t8X0

[n david]

Don’t touch hillsong

Used to love Hillsong. Not so much anymore, thanks to Lentz and just an oversaturation of them.

You know they curse on one of their newer songs?

[Aquila]

Hillsong wants you to join together with the Vatican. And they say it is THE WORSHIP MUSIC that is driving this new "unity"! Can't people see what's going on? They themselves admit that the music is the driving and mobilising force behind the efforts at unity with Rome!



I think we can all agree that most of us (including myself) are not big supporters of Hillsong, IHOP, Vineyard, or the Vatican. I'm sure most of us can point out and agree upon their doctrinal errors. So, when Hillsong says it is the worship music that is driving this new unity, why should we believe them? Personally, I believe a spirit is behind it. Might that spirit be using music as a tool in some way? Perhaps. But music is just a tool. It is neither good nor evil. It is the spirit and attitude behind the music that makes music good or evil. A born again Apostolic saint of God can sing a song written and produced by ecumenical Trinitarians and the song be anointed and blessed. Why? Because the saint's heart is right. An ecumenical Trinitarian can sing a song written and produced by a mightily anointed Apostolic musician... and the song not be anointed and completely worldly. The difference is the spirit and attitude behind the music and song.

At least, that's my take on it.

[Aquila]

Wed. bible study class we discussed how that David wanted to build God a house. God answered David by Nathan asking him a question, "Did I ask you to build me an house". God never asked Israel to build him an house, in fact, God did not need them to build him seeing that God dwelleth not in temples made with mans hand. It is interesting to me, although God never asked for them to build an house he goes on to tell David that his seed would build that house (dual prophecy: Jesus/Solomon).

Now where this ties into this thread. David had a heart to worship God. He did not need instructions on how to worship, but he was constantly doing acts of worship. David wanted (freewill) to build the Lord an house. Although, Davids plans may have been a little misguided, his heart was spot on. The idea that we must have a scripture to instruct the exact protocol of worship and singing seems absurd. Although, there are many precedents in scripture of how people worshiped God, I don't think there was a wrong way. So long as it is not sinful or in the flesh.

BTW, following the bible study Wed. night, without music there was an atmosphere of worship among our adult class. People raised their hands and cried out to God in praise without any pumping, all because of what the Lord showed us in his word. People seen how that David looked for an oppurtunity to praise God. It is interesting how that when Saul became king he spent most of his time trying to secure his throne, but David on the other hand when he was officially coronated and established he felt like bulding God a house (throne). Saul was busy worrying about his own throne, but David was concerned about God's throne. David said he wanted to build God and house and then God said that he would build David and house. Isn't God awesome!!!

If we seek to please God, then He will bless and take care of us. Something is wrong when we need music to worship God. Instead we get to worship God with music. We need to get the horse back in front of the cart. Run, dance, shout,lay flat prostate, whatever we do, but we must do it from the heart to the glory of God. How can you not be demonstrative in worship when you are excited and joyous because of the God you serve.

Amen. :thumbsup

[Aquila]

Used to love Hillsong. Not so much anymore, thanks to Lentz and just an oversaturation of them.

You know they curse on one of their newer songs?

Do you remember which song?

[Amanah]

I thinking "soaking" is akin to contemplation which is similar to eastern meditation, whereas Christian meditation is meditating on the word of God. The first has you emptying your mind, the latter has you focusing your mind on the Word.

[Aquila]

The following Scriptures are of value when discussing prayer and meditation (soaking prayer):

Ps. 23: 1-3 – “The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul;”

Ps. 131:2 — “Surely I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with his mother. Like a weaned child is my soul within me.”

Ps. 42:7 & 8 – “Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves & breakers have swept over me. By day the Lord directs His love, at night His song is with me – a prayer to the God of my life.”


Ps. 63:1 – 3 – “O God, you are my God, earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you, my body longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water. I have seen you in the sanctuary and beheld your power and your glory. Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify You.”

Zeph. 3:17 – “The Lord your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.”

Ps. 4:4 — “Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still.”

Isa. 30:15 — “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength’.”

Ps. 37:7 — “Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him.”

Matt. 11:28-30 — “Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Isa. 40:29-31 — “He gives power to the weak, and to those who have no might He increases strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall, but those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.”

Hos. 2:14 — “Therefore, behold, I will allure her (God’s people), I will bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfort to her.”

Exodus 14:14 — “The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still.”

[Aquila]

I thinking "soaking" is akin to contemplation which is similar to eastern meditation, whereas Christian meditation is meditating on the word of God. The first has you emptying your mind, the latter has you focusing your mind on the Word.

What do you believe Christians contemplate when engaged in contemplative prayer?

[Aquila]

I remember being told that Christians struggle with the word "meditation" because the word is predominantly used in Eastern religions and the practice is at their core. Meditation is typically a term used to describe a state of being wherein one has not only stilled the mind, but silenced it, so that one experiences the moment, the present without the burden of background thoughts being concerned about the future, or agonizing over the past. And since Christian meditation is predicated upon contemplating the Scriptures, God, or doctrinal truth, the term "Contemplative prayer" best describes the Christian practice of meditation.

But... as we can see... the term "contemplative prayer" is also something that frightens most Christians.

Are we to meditate upon the Scriptures without meditating? Are we to contemplate the Scriptures, God, or doctrinal truths and not call it "contemplation"?

[n david]

Do you remember which song?

Yes

[n david]

What do you believe Christians contemplate when engaged in contemplative prayer?
smh

[good samaritan]

]Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Therefore, there is no such thing as genuine faith that is not derived from the word of God. Our worship must be done in faith. Whatever is without faith, is sin. Therefore, our worship is sin if it is without faith. Which in turn means it must be biblical, indeed it must be biblically directed and biblically informed, otherwise it cannot be in faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

I think you took my statement too far left so I am going answer you too far right.

Faith is our response to the word of God. How many new converts has the entire Bible memorized first before they begin to worshp God. Could it be that this word of God is still living and is more than just ink on paper. Paul had no precedents other than old testament scriptures (which were certainly enough). If people must wait until they find a chapter and a verse before they decide a proper method to worship God they would probably never start. Coincidentaly the Spirit leads people to worship in ways that they later discover has a Biblical precendent.

So I stand behind my original statement. There is no wrong way to worship so long as it is not done the flesh (that means it is led by the Spirit) and not sinful (so it cannot break any of the commandments of God), I don't see any error in my post, aside from maybe some grammatical.lol.

So, yes, we need to let God teach us how to worship him, and His divine revelation is the Bible. Therefore, our worship must be Bible based and Bible derived and Bible compliant.

So people must cognitavely have a scripture before they can respond by faith in worship. That sounds like what Jesus died to free us from. I agree that the Bible is divine revelataion and we should search the scriptures daily. I don't believe we must legalistically wait to find an exact scripture to do an act of worship. Many have had the Spirit to speak to their hearts before the scripture was instilled into their minds.

The Spirit is not given in order to justify us in doing whatever we feel like doing. The Spirit is given in order to lead us and guide us into all truth ("Thy word is truth" Jesus said). The Spirit is given to direct our heart and life, empowering us to live a life of God manifestation. Meaning the life of God manifesting in and through our life, our actions, our worship, everything we do. The Spirit enables us to experience what the Bible reveals.


The question is must the Bible reveal before the Spirit can lead. the Spirit will not lead someone in a wrong way to worship. My initial statement was not meant to suggest that the Spirit the Spirit works like that.


There most certainly are wrong ways to worship God. Jesus said the Pharisees' worship was in vain, it was empty, pointless, useless, and unacceptable to God. Why? Because they taught as doctrine the commandments of men. In other words, they took their own ideas and taught them as though they were the ideas of God, acceptable to God, the proper method to serve God, etc. That man-made worship of God is declared by Jesus to be vain. He said they were hypocrites, they honoured God with their mouths but their hearts were far away from God. Why? What determined that to be the case? It was because their religion, their worship, was man created, it was not God created. It was man directed, not God directed. It was of man, not of God.

The pharisees worship was empty and wrong because it was not done in Spirit and in truth. When our worship is genunine and motivated by the Spirit, it immediately becomes becomes biblical. I hope you really don't think people should should wait to clap their hands until they find it in the Bible.lol.

What is "of God"? that which God has revealed through His word. It must be this way, because apart from the Scripture there is no way to identify what is truly of God.

When I came to God it was with very limited Bible knowledge, (I am still a pupil) but I recognized the touch of God without immediate written instrutions. I personnaly believe if the the government took all of our Bibles away tommorrow the word of God would still remain.

Our salvation must match the salvation described in the Bible. Our faith must match the faith described in the Bible. Our worship, likewise, must match the worship described in the Bible.

Otherwise, we are just doing our own thing and presuming God is pleased with it, with no evidence such is actually the case.


I agree that we must be aligned with the Word of God, but allowing God's Spirit to guide us will not contradict that. I am sure are views are very similar, but have different ways of explaning.

The rest of your post was spot on.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

[n david]

I remember being told that Christians struggle with the word "meditation" because the word is predominantly used in Eastern religions and the practice is at their core. Meditation is typically a term used to describe a state of being wherein one has not only stilled the mind, but silenced it, so that one experiences the moment, the present without the burden of background thoughts being concerned about the future, or agonizing over the past. And since Christian meditation is predicated upon contemplating the Scriptures, God, or doctrinal truth, the term "Contemplative prayer" best describes the Christian practice of meditation.

But... as we can see... the term "contemplative prayer" is also something that frightens most Christians.

Are we to meditate upon the Scriptures without meditating? Are we to contemplate the Scriptures, God, or doctrinal truths and not call it "contemplation"?

https://m.popkey.co/46343c/RQXQ_f-maxage-0_s-200x150.gif

[good samaritan]

soaking prayer???? Why do people have to go and put hokey pokey labels on everything. I try to soak up everything I can everytime I pray. I don't need a checklist to pray or worship.

music volume..... check
lighting........ check
comfortable seating ...... check
etc.... this has all gotten ridiculous and fake. People are trying to counterfeit only what God can do. I am not against technology and modern conveniences, but I will not give God that which cost me nothing. True worship comes at a price and I am not talking about purchasing the latest sound equip.

[n david]

soaking prayer???? Why do people have to go and put hokey pokey labels on everything. I try to soak up everything I can everytime I pray. I don't need a checklist to pray or worship.

music volume..... check
lighting........ check
comfortable seating ...... check
etc.... this has all gotten ridiculous and fake. People are trying to counterfeit only what God can do. I am not against technology and modern conveniences, but I will not give God that which cost me nothing. True worship comes at a price and I am not talking about purchasing the latest sound equip.

You needn't purchase expensive sound equipment. Apparently candles and a hot bath are good as well.

[Aquila]

One of the most powerful contemplative experiences I had was with the following text:

John 4:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now, typically when I read that Scripture, my mind quickly assesses the canned answer I had been taught for many decades, "God is indeed a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in the Holy Spirit and in doctrinal purity."

But that isn't what it says.

It took me silencing my mind and truly contemplating the text to walk away from it with a far different understanding. The text tells us that God is a spirit. This is an ontological statement regarding God's substance. God is spirit. Those who worship Him must worship Him in "spirit" not "Spirit". This isn't a reference to the Holy Spirit at all. It is a reference to the human spirit. And so, what it is saying is that our worship must come from the core of our being, our spirit, or inner man. Carnal worship that is based on flesh doesn't please God. For example, Esaias pointed out the carnal and fleshly nature of some of the music produced by so many Charismatic churches. The lighting, smoke machines, blah, blah, blah... it's all carnal, from the flesh. Our worship must be the result of a deep reverence and love that comes from our inner man, our spirits.

The next realization through contemplation came from the phrase, "and in truth". One sister told me that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life, and so true worship must come to God through Jesus. While theologically correct, the conclusion is drawn by using the word "truth" to string together different verses from very different contexts. It isn't sound. For years I was taught that this meant true doctrine. But this isn't sound either. Why? Because every man who has ever given a study using this verse will claim that we must worship God in true doctrine... and then go forward to tell us his "version" of true doctrine! LOL Even on this forum, among fellow Apostolics, we see different versions of "truth" based on whoever is expounding upon something. And many will tie their pet doctrine to what "truth" must be and so unless one embraces that individual's version of the "truth", the implication is that one isn't truly worshipping God in an acceptable manner. So this interpretation is far too subjective and leaves us adrift, being tossed on the sea of one human opinion and interpretation to another.

So, what is meant by God desiring that we worship Him "in spirit and in truth"?

It simply means that we are to worship God in spirit (our spirits, from our core, from our hearts) and in... authenticity. We are not to think too highly of ourselves. We are not to come to God pretending to be something we're not, or pretending to be more righteous than we really are. The day would come when men wouldn't go to the temple and worship God with the outward pretense of righteousness, which was only a self-righteousness. Men would come to Him as they were and where they were, being honest about who they are, and worship Him for who He is... appealing to His mercy.

Consider this parable that contrasts two men in prayer...

Luke 18:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

One man prayed to God, his worship being predicated upon an intellectualized pretense of self-righteousness. The other man prayed to God, his worship being predicated upon a core understanding of who he truly was in God's sight, being honest with God about who and what he was. A sinner. This man's authenticity made him far more righteous than the Pharisee, even though the man was clearly a sinner filled with remorse. And so we see what it means to worship God "in spirit and in truth".

Keep in mind, when Jesus had told the woman at the well that the day was coming when men would worship God in spirit and in truth...He had just finished revealing that He knew that she was five times divorced, and that she was currently involved with a man that she wasn't married to. The implication was that one day she would be able to approach God and worship Him from the core of her being, from the core of her inner desire, her inner man... just as she is. She'd no longer have to be the outcast. And she'd no longer have to pretend to be some perfect creature in the shadows of the temple to avoid being harassed or possibly even stoned. Dare I say it, because it's corny and has been worn out... she could come "just as you are". She understood that this kind of loving intimacy and freedom from shame was to accompany the coming of the Messiah. This is why she answered saying:

John 4:24-26
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

He revealed to her that He was the Messiah, thus implying that the time to worship God in spirit and in truth was... now.

Did Jesus berate her about her having a lover?
Did Jesus condemn her and demand she fix her life before choosing to follow Him?
Did Jesus condemn her in any way?

No.

What happens next is quite interesting. What does this woman feel compelled to do?

John 4:28-30
28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

And what was the result?

John 4:39-42
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Imagine that... Jesus used a woman, who was five times divorced and currently involved with a man she wasn't even married to, to reach an entire city.

She realized that if her intensions were pure, and from the deepest recesses of her spirit, she was free to worship God as she was, in authenticity. And this set her on fire to tell others about this Jesus. This is why Jesus tested her earlier in the conversation by asking her about her "husband". Jesus just wanted to know if she'd tell the truth. Was she authentic enough to admit that she had no husband? An imperfect person who is real (or authentic), serving from the deepest recesses of their spirit, can be used far more than a person whose faith is largely predicated upon an intellectualized pretense and self-righteousness.

I got up from my contemplation on John 4:24 with a renewed understanding of God's mercy and grace. Those who worship God must worship God in their spirits and in authenticity.

[Aquila]

Yes

Which one?

[Aquila]

soaking prayer???? Why do people have to go and put hokey pokey labels on everything. I try to soak up everything I can everytime I pray. I don't need a checklist to pray or worship.

music volume..... check
lighting........ check
comfortable seating ...... check
etc.... this has all gotten ridiculous and fake. People are trying to counterfeit only what God can do. I am not against technology and modern conveniences, but I will not give God that which cost me nothing. True worship comes at a price and I am not talking about purchasing the latest sound equip.

It's like I said, we've been doing this stuff for generations. It's just a natural part of prayer for us.

I don't really care for the label "soaking prayer". I think Charismatics just discovered good old fashioned prayer and meditation, and they put a label on it to market their "soaking prayer" music. lol

[Aquila]

You needn't purchase expensive sound equipment. Apparently candles and a hot bath are good as well.

I think candles and a hot bath would be more authentic than concert lighting, sound machines, and smoke machines. I'll admit it... I've prayed, worshipped, and talked to God quite a bit in the shower. Of course, I have two kids, so the bathroom is one of the very few places wherein I can be alone with God. lol

[n david]

One of the most powerful contemplative experiences I had was with the following text:

I got up from my contemplation on John 4:24 with a renewed understanding of God's mercy and grace. Those who worship God must worship God from the deepest recesses of their being in a spirit and disposition of authenticity.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/a1f9f1734901f43c64094b8c84c608ad/tenor.gif?itemid=4452366
That feeling when someone waxes on about something they obviously don't know about.

Contemplative prayer is not contemplating while you pray. Stop with the ridiculous posts about how you practice contemplative prayer. What you described above is not it.

Let's try it again:

""Contemplative prayer begins with “centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise.""

It is meant to "clear your mind" and engage with your inner self, because we all are divine beings.

Again, contemplative prayer is not sitting around in the quiet thinking/contemplating a scripture or verse.

[Aquila]

That feeling when someone waxes on about something they obviously don't know about.

Contemplative prayer is not contemplating while you pray. Stop with the ridiculous posts about how you practice contemplative prayer. What you described above is not it.

Let's try it again:

""Contemplative prayer begins with “centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise.""

It is meant to "clear your mind" and engage with your inner self, because we all are divine beings.

Then, let me let you in on something... not everyone who engages in "contemplative prayer" does so exactly like the videos and articles you read. :heeheehee

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Much of what is known as "contemplative prayer" is too Catholic for me. But elements of it did prove beneficial to my prayer life. If one wishes to call it "centering" or not, I don't care. I do focus in on the name of Jesus. At times, I have repeated it. I have cleared my mind of all the daily clutter, and opened my soul up to God, allowing my inner man to breathe in God's goodness (sometimes even speaking in tongues while doing so).

As an Apostolic, I'd like to show some of these Catholic gurus how contemplative prayer is really done.

- Scripture doesn't forbid focusing in on the name of Jesus. To me, becoming "centered" means to focus in on who Christ is and the power of His name. Recognizing that I am in Christ Jesus and He in me. One can't get more "centered" than that. And repeating the name, as I have heard oldtimers do it time and time again, isn't a "vain repetition" unless the name of Jesus is of no value, authority, or power.

- Scripture doesn't condemn clearing your mind of all the worldly thoughts, distractions, cares, or concerns of this life as part of prayer. In fact, I've never heard a preacher tell the congregation, "Now, I want you to remain distracted. Let all your cares, concerns, and worries continue to just race around in your head. Now we're ready to pray." :lol

- And, as far as us being "divine beings", not everyone who practices contemplative prayer believes that. I sure don't. Now, I do realize that I have a divine being residing in me... Christ in me, the hope of glory. Now, if I can get in touch with Him, I know everything will be alright.

- And there is nothing wrong with contemplating God in the present, God in Scripture, what you desire or need from Him, how much you love Him, or what He's done for you. There is nothing wrong with contemplating doctrinal truth. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with contemplation at all. It's just deep thought, consideration, and reflection on something. In this case, the LORD and His Word.

Again, contemplative prayer is not sitting around in the quiet thinking/contemplating a scripture or verse.

Maybe you guys should realize that when I say "contemplative prayer"... I really mean... "contemplative prayer". A contemplative prayer as it has been done on Pentecost long before some Charismatic Catholic Monk made a label called, "Contemplative Prayer", to sell a few books. If I can get you guys to realize this, maybe y'all can realize that the accusation that I'm practicing the mysticism that some of those Catholic gurus practice isn't all that accurate... which is what I've tried to tell you guys all along.

It's important to note, when dealing with things such as these... one specific method of practice doesn't reflect the reality. There are many ways in which contemplative prayer, soaking prayer, etc. are practiced. As I pray you've seen, I've taken what is valuable in these things and have chosen to incorporate it into my prayer life. However, I've also chosen not to incorporate those things that I don't find valuable into my prayer life.

But frankly, in my studies on this... the valuable aspects of these kinds of prayer have been put into practice by Pentecostals for generations.

I keep encountering you guys wanting to pigeonhole me as being just like Thomas Keating, in what I'm talking about. And I keep telling you, I'm not. If I met Thomas Keating (and could get beyond the boredom of his book), I'd say, "Hey Tom. I read your book on contemplative prayer. Interesting stuff. But have you looked into how Pentecostals have been doing this for over a century now? You'll discover some differences and some similarities. Here, let's go to a prayer meeting." lol

If you guys can just stop thinking that I'm Thomas Keating, and realize that what I'm talking about is a contemplative form of prayer that predates the "Contemplative Prayer" of Keating, we'll be well on our way to understanding what I'm really talking about.

[Aquila]

Contemplative prayer is not contemplating while you pray.

So, if I contemplate while I pray, I can't call it contemplative prayer? :toofunny

[Esaias]

I think a lot of people (including Pentecostals) just balk at the idea that the Scripture is the higher authority. They just don't like the idea that they themselves aren't ultimately in charge. Sure, they obey God's Word - when and where it suits them. But actual correction from the word? No, that's just not gonna fly. They have to "feel convicted" first, for example. They don't feel convicted from the word, either, necessarily. It's gotta be some kind of internal angst or something, which ultimately means their religion is not Bible directed but self directed.

Anyway, I haven't heard a lot of preaching the last 10-15 years or so that really exalted the Bible as the "final authority for faith and practice" like I heard when I first came into the Truth.

Everyman to his tents?

[n david]

If you guys can just stop thinking that I'm Thomas Keating, and realize that what I'm talking about is a contemplative form of prayer that predates the "Contemplative Prayer" of Keating, we'll be well on our way to understanding what I'm really talking about.
Here's a thought, stop calling it contemplative prayer. You're praying or studying. That's it. You're not doing what is commonly known as "contemplative prayer." So stop with the stupidity.

What Keating practiced and taught is NOT something Pentecostals have been doing for over a century. We do not believe we are divine. We do not "center" ourselves in order to contact the divine nature within ourselves. That is mysticism. That is occultism.

[Esaias]

Here's a short description of how to enter into soaking prayer. Can you elaborate on what makes the prayer meetings I described different from soaking prayer?

How to Soak in God’s Presence

“Jesus says, ‘Ask and you will receive’. We’re very good at the asking part but how about the ‘receiving’? If we are the ones who are dong all the talking, it’s a pretty one-way conversation. Soaking is the listening part of our conversation with Him. It’s laying aside time to lie down and receive from Him.” --CTF Ministries

“When we discipline ourselves to behold Jesus in every circumstance, a transformation occurs. We learn how to sit, wait and watch for Him every day. The Holy Spirit teaches us about face-to-face, personal adoration; it comes from a worship that flows from a place of rest. When we sit at Jesus’ feet and just be, as Mary did, we behold Him. Worship cannot come out of striving, but out of stillness. Spending time with God gives us a touch from Him - this touch is such a pleasure that it will cause a spirit of adoration to well up in us, and overflow.” --Graham Cooke

There is joy in the life of those who practice soaking prayer. It’s time to lay your burdens at the feet of Jesus. It’s time to find rest for your soul in 2007. It’s time to be still and know that He is God. It may take a little effort to quiet your racing thoughts, but it’s well worth the effort. Let Him lead you beside still waters. Take time to meditate on the following Scriptures:

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).

“The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul” (Psalms 23:1-3).

”When it comes to real devotion, come with nothing to do except to sit and learn how to wait, rest and be. Be still. Fill your mind with Jesus. Faith and stillness are sustenance for your spirit, so learn to focus on Jesus. When your mind wanders off, bring it back. Retrain it; it’s had years of having its own way. Renewing your spirit and your mind is exciting and has incredible fruit. Worship becomes natural for you, and the peace of God wells up in your heart. God’s perspective can be seen more quickly.” --Graham Cooke”

• Find a quiet place - A peaceful environment helps you to become peaceful on the inside.

• Listen to worship music - You may want to use quiet instrumental or quiet worship music. There is so much good soaking music available (www.soaking.net is an excellent resource).

• Quiet down your busy thoughts - Initially your thoughts can be racing all over, but know that the Lord is with you. Turn your attention to Him. Wait for your thoughts to settle.

• Invite the Holy Spirit to come and soak you in His presence - Surrender your mind, body and soul in prayer to the Holy Spirit. Humble yourself before Him.

• Focus on the Lord’s presence - Open your heart to God. You are learning to abide in Him. You are learning to focus on Him and His presence.

• Rest in faith and believe that God is working within you - It isn’t about what you can accomplish through your efforts; it’s about what God is doing in you.

• Give time to soaking in God’s presence - The more time you can spend in His presence, the better. Start with 20 minutes in His presence. You will find as you do this, in a very short time you will want to spend more time in His presence.

• Watch as God changes you - You will leave refreshed and full of the Holy Spirit. Your life will be different because God is changing you through soaking in His presence. You will have an impact on the world around you as you carry God’s presence with you wherever you go.

“Intimacy with God is the key to fruitfulness in every area of our lives. As we become more aware of His presence in us… so do other people. As we become more affected by His presence in us… so do those around us. By taking time in the secret place with God, we start to walk by the spirit in everyday life. We find that rather than striving to achieve things for God, He is building His kingdom through us.” --CTF Ministries

Begin today by soaking for at least 20 minutes in God’s presence. Practice the above points and watch what God does. Soaking prayer will have a transforming effect in your life.

“Soaking is a dedication: ‘God, this is time just for you.’ Soaking is an invitation: ‘God, do what you want to in me.’ Soaking is an expectation: ‘Thank you, Father, for what you are accomplishing as I rest in you.’ We come to Him like little children believing that He has good things for us. ‘If you then know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him.” --CTF Ministries

Together in the Harvest,


Here's a short video on soaking prayer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdMjfc7t8X0

A book I highly recommend you read is Jessie Penn-Lewis' War on the Saints. Here's a link to the 1912 edition:
http://www.banner.org.uk/media/books/War_on_the_Saints.pdf

[n david]

So, if I contemplate while I pray, I can't call it contemplative prayer? :toofunny
Call it whatever you want, soaked. Just don't claim it's the same as what is commonly known as contemplative prayer. Because it's not.

You calling prayer and studying "contemplative prayer" is a dumb as those christian t-shirts switching around secular phrases and slogans.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/d1/cd/f8d1cd74146456a1c963dd6f79372f57.jpg

http://crosebrough.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/07/drinks.jpg

[Aquila]

Here's a thought, stop calling it contemplative prayer. You're praying or studying. That's it. You're not doing what is commonly known as "contemplative prayer." So stop with the stupidity.

What Keating practiced and taught is NOT something Pentecostals have been doing for over a century. We do not believe we are divine. We do not "center" ourselves in order to contact the divine nature within ourselves. That is mysticism. That is occultism.

I do perceive that you're all caught up in words. lol If Keating can show me that he owns the rights to the words "contemplative" and "prayer", I'll stop using the terms. But... he doesn't own those words.

What I found interesting is that I used those words and people began barking like wild dogs again. But here's what I found entertaining... no one really paid close attention to what I was saying about my understanding of contemplative prayer until now. Instead, I was instantly classified as a "witch" before anyone really began to realize, what I'm talking about is not entirely like what Keating teaches. LOL

[Aquila]

Call it whatever you want, soaked. Just don't claim it's the same as what is commonly known as contemplative prayer. Because it's not.

You calling prayer and studying "contemplative prayer" is a dumb as those christian t-shirts switching around secular phrases and slogans.

No... I think Keating's use of the phrase, "Contemplative Prayer" is dumb. First, as you pointed out... there's no real "contemplation". Second, there's no reak prayer. So, I contend that my understanding of "contemplative prayer" is far more accurate.

Tell Keating to stop using the term.

[n david]

I do perceive that you're all caught up in words. lol If Keating can show me that he owns the rights to the words "contemplative" and "prayer", I'll stop using the terms. But... he doesn't own those words.

What I found interesting is that I used those words and people began barking like wild dogs again. But here's what I found entertaining... no one really paid close attention to what I was saying about my understanding of contemplative prayer until now. Instead, I was instantly classified as a "witch" before anyone really began to realize, what I'm talking about is not entirely like what Keating teaches. LOL

Perhaps it's because you claimed you practiced contemplative prayer, which to the overwhelming majority of people means something completely different than what you described.

smh

[n david]

No... I think Keating's use of the phrase, "Contemplative Prayer" is dumb. First, as you pointed out... there's no real "contemplation". Second, there's no prayer. So, I contend that my understanding of "contemplative prayer" is far more accurate.

Tell Keating to stop using the term.

Go soak yourself.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3325197/mark-hoppus-soaked-o.gif

Good grief.

[Esaias]

A book I highly recommend you read is Jessie Penn-Lewis' War on the Saints. Here's a link to the 1912 edition:
http://www.banner.org.uk/media/books/War_on_the_Saints.pdf

I don't agree with everything she wrote, but she is spot on regarding the dangers of "passivity".
Here's the important part of her book in HTML: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1668

[Esaias]

Another important chapter from her book:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1670

[Aquila]

I think a lot of people (including Pentecostals) just balk at the idea that the Scripture is the higher authority. They just don't like the idea that they themselves aren't ultimately in charge. Sure, they obey God's Word - when and where it suits them. But actual correction from the word? No, that's just not gonna fly. They have to "feel convicted" first, for example. They don't feel convicted from the word, either, necessarily. It's gotta be some kind of internal angst or something, which ultimately means their religion is not Bible directed but self directed.

Anyway, I haven't heard a lot of preaching the last 10-15 years or so that really exalted the Bible as the "final authority for faith and practice" like I heard when I first came into the Truth.

Everyman to his tents?

How can I explain this...

I remember having similar thoughts until I realized something... it's not necessarily that so many saints bulk at the Scripture being the ultimate authority. It's that in most cases, what is being rejected is an individual's interpretation of it. You see, we can both read the very same Bible, and walk away with very different understandings of what God desires or expects of us. Then we both can post tons of Bible verses back and forth as proof texts for our positions. Now, when you say everything you wrote above, I'm assuming that by saying what you said, you're thinking that if everyone comes into agreement with what YOU believe the Bible to say, they'll be more in line with what you believe is the ultimate authority of Scripture. But the reality would be... that they submitted to you as an ultimate authority of Scripture.

The Bible is truly our ultimate authority. But I was taught that the entire purpose of the Bible is to guide us into a living, Spirit led, relationship with God not unlike those who are recorded in it. Without that, I just have a man's interpretation of what he believes the Bible is saying. And thereby, I've made that man's interpretation my ultimate authority. And by doing that... I've made him my ultimate authority. That's why "cults" are so dogmatic. If you don't believe it just like the guy up front... you're wrong. But that is carnal logic. It isn't the way of the Spirit.

What is your understanding of the following passage?

Romans 14:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

How might the spiritual principles in this passage be applied to this thread?

[Esaias]

How can I explain this...

I remember having similar thoughts until I realized something... it's not necessarily that so many saints bulk at the Scripture being the ultimate authority. It's that in most cases, what is being rejected is an individual's interpretation of it. You see, we can both read the very same Bible, and walk away with very different understandings of what God desires or expects of us. Then we both can post tons of Bible verses back and forth as proof texts for our positions. Now, when you say everything you wrote above, I'm assuming that by saying what you said, you're thinking that if everyone comes into agreement with what YOU believe the Bible to say, they'll be more in line with what you believe is the ultimate authority of Scripture. But the reality would be... that they submitted to you as an ultimate authority of Scripture.

The Bible is truly our ultimate authority. But I was taught that the entire purpose of the Bible is to guide us into a living, Spirit led, relationship with God not unlike those who are recorded in it. Without that, I just have a man's interpretation of what he believes the Bible is saying. And thereby, I've made that man's interpretation my ultimate authority. And by doing that... I've made him my ultimate authority. That's why "cults" are so dogmatic. If you don't believe it just like the guy up front... you're wrong. But that is carnal logic. It isn't the way of the Spirit.

What I have seen is a growth in a genuine "it doesn't matter what the Bible says, I feel like doing it THIS way and that's that." When a person doesn't make recourse to Scripture, it is no mere interpretational issue, it is a source of authority issue.

I don't expect anyone to just agree with me EXCEPT IN ONE POINT: THAT SCRIPTURE ALONE DETERMINES WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE. Everything else can be hashed out, but without that common ground there is no "interpretational differences", there is only steadfast opposition to one another.

Can two walk together unless they are agreed? No, they can't, nor can they even discuss Bible unless they have a basic common ground concerning it's authority.

[Aquila]

Perhaps it's because you claimed you practiced contemplative prayer, which to the overwhelming majority of people means something completely different than what you described.

smh

Exactly!

And you'll notice that a great deal of you went into instant attack mode. No one paused and said, "Wait. What do you mean by that?" I even tried to explain what I meant by it voluntarily. And, instead of actually letting what I was actually saying sink in... I was accused of mysticism, being a witch, blah, blah, blah. At one point, I was even told that what I was saying wasn't true, I was really a witch, and what I really believe is the new age garbage! LOL Only in the past few posts has someone actually stopped and realized... what I'm saying isn't exactly what I'm being accused of.

There's a very combative spirt in this forum. A spirit that has given the gift of criticism, sarcasm, and insult instead of the gift of discernment.

Having said all that... I feel that folks were pretty hard on what Michael was really trying to say. Instead of investing the energy in trying to understand Bro. Michael (A BROTHER), a lot of energy was invested in trying to tie him to IHOP and throw him overboard. A great deal of effort was made to try to tie me to Keating and Vineyard to justify throwing me overboard.

When I say that one must be careful around here (this forum) because it seems like a lot of guys are like barking attack dogs ready to rip people to pieces... this is kinda what I'm talking about.

And trust me. It's not easy trying to bear this out. Most of the time... it's the entire thread against me. LOL

Oh well, I like to have a lot of fun while illustrating a point. I've enjoyed it. I pray you have walked away with something too.

[Aquila]

What I have seen is a growth in a genuine "it doesn't matter what the Bible says, I feel like doing it THIS way and that's that." When a person doesn't make recourse to Scripture, it is no mere interpretational issue, it is a source of authority issue.

I don't expect anyone to just agree with me EXCEPT IN ONE POINT: THAT SCRIPTURE ALONE DETERMINES WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE. Everything else can be hashed out, but without that common ground there is no "interpretational differences", there is only steadfast opposition to one another.

Can two walk together unless they are agreed? No, they can't, nor can they even discuss Bible unless they have a basic common ground concerning it's authority.

That's a common sentiment. But I see it as a recipe for greater tension and division within the body.

We must agree. And for the most part we do. All of us believe that Jesus is indeed God. We don't believe in the Trinity. Most of us believe in the Acts 2:38 experience. I think we all believe in the bodily return of Christ. All of us believe that a believer should live a life of holiness, even if we have differing perspectives of what that means.

I've mentioned that I served in the Army. America is a wonderful nation. Why? Because in America we're free. Now, that allows for innumerable opinions, lifestyles, political perspectives, religious perspectives, etc. I don't believe there is a more diverse nation on earth. But our diversity is our strength. Every fascist nation built around a single ethic eventually falls. Because nobody will ever completely agree. Our diversity is therefore an enduring strength. But if we ever get to the point when we've demonized every dissenting opinion, every challenge, every alternative method, we've spelled our destruction. It's always the unbending branch the breaks in the wind. Now, even with America's diversity... when I was in the military I saw men and women of nearly every creed, race, lifestyle, religion, put on the same uniform, with a willingness to fight and die for one another. That is TRUE and AUTHENTIC unity.

Sadly, the church hasn't matured enough to realize that in spite of our differences of interpretations regarding the Scriptures... we all stand loving those same Scriptures. We wear the same uniform. We're brothers.

I wish I heard more, "What is your take on this?", instead of "Let me tell you why you really don't believe God's Word or know Jesus!"

[Esaias]

Diversity is our strength?

Is there Bible for that?

[Esaias]

No... I think Keating's use of the phrase, "Contemplative Prayer" is dumb. First, as you pointed out... there's no real "contemplation". Second, there's no reak prayer. So, I contend that my understanding of "contemplative prayer" is far more accurate.

Tell Keating to stop using the term.

Words matter. When everyone and their mother understands a term to mean "X", and you use that term, don't be surprised if everyone understands you to mean "X".

And if you don't mean "X" you probably should use another term to avoid confusion.

Unless you just like to create strife...

[n david]

Words matter. When everyone and their mother understands a term to mean "X", and you use that term, don't be surprised if everyone understands you to mean "X".

And if you don't mean "X" you probably should use another term to avoid confusion.

Unless you just like to create strife...

http://rs694.pbsrc.com/albums/vv303/pearlsandlace/8z3cxz.gif?w=280&h=210&fit=crop

[n david]

No one paused and said, "Wait. What do you mean by that?"
Esaias nailed it.

Words matter. When everyone and their mother understands a term to mean "X", and you use that term, don't be surprised if everyone understands you to mean "X".

And if you don't mean "X" you probably should use another term to avoid confusion.

Unless you just like to create strife...

[houston]

Used to love Hillsong. Not so much anymore, thanks to Lentz and just an oversaturation of them.

You know they curse on one of their newer songs?

I was jk. I don’t listen to much of their stuff. I own 2 albums. Glorious Ruins, and Global Project: Português.

I wasn’t aware that they curse on one of their songs.

[houston]

Perhaps it's because you claimed you practiced contemplative prayer, which to the overwhelming majority of people means something completely different than what you described.

smh

Don’t forget, the doll readings.

[JoeBandy]

What I have seen is a growth in a genuine "it doesn't matter what the Bible says, I feel like doing it THIS way and that's that." When a person doesn't make recourse to Scripture, it is no mere interpretational issue, it is a source of authority issue.

I don't expect anyone to just agree with me EXCEPT IN ONE POINT: THAT SCRIPTURE ALONE DETERMINES WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE. Everything else can be hashed out, but without that common ground there is no "interpretational differences", there is only steadfast opposition to one another.

Can two walk together unless they are agreed? No, they can't, nor can they even discuss Bible unless they have a basic common ground concerning it's authority.

SO.. with regard to the OP, the flailing around like there is a bottle rocket in your butt and indian rain dance type worship is "I feel like doing it this way"!

[Michael The Disciple]

SO.. with regard to the OP, the flailing around like there is a bottle rocket in your butt and indian rain dance type worship is "I feel like doing it this way"!

:highfive

[Esaias]

SO.. with regard to the OP, the flailing around like there is a bottle rocket in your butt and indian rain dance type worship is "I feel like doing it this way"!

Obviously you didn't read the whole thread.

But that's okay, folks gonna do what they wanna do.

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

There most certainly are wrong ways to worship God. Jesus said the Pharisees' worship was in vain, it was empty, pointless, useless, and unacceptable to God. Why? Because they taught as doctrine the commandments of men. In other words, they took their own ideas and taught them as though they were the ideas of God, acceptable to God, the proper method to serve God, etc. That man-made worship of God is declared by Jesus to be vain. He said they were hypocrites, they honoured God with their mouths but their hearts were far away from God. Why? What determined that to be the case? It was because their religion, their worship, was man created, it was not God created. It was man directed, not God directed. It was of man, not of God.

So seeing how what you said cannot be denied where does that leave the Oneness Pentecostal movement?

Do they teach for doctrines the commandments of men?

Pre trib, instant Heaven at death, Eternal torture for millions of ages? Men being sinful if they grow their beard? Women going to eternal hell for trimming their hair? No covering when they pray and prophesy, Catholic celebrations of Christmas and Easter?

So seeing the pile of heresies that are believed by ALMOST all Oneness Pentecostals, should you embrace their worship? Is the Spirit really moving as they jump pews, run into each other while running, fall in the floor, roll in the floor, ect?

Defining worship as you have stated many times as truth?

Sub defining it as the way one praises the Lord?

I mean after all the one who STARTED THE THREAD was actually addressing some of the "odd" things concerning "Apostolic worship" in the sense of THE WAY they praise the Lord.

[Esaias]

So seeing how what you said cannot be denied where does that leave the Oneness Pentecostal movement?



I'm a Christian. I follow the Bible. If anyone thinks I don't then please let me know and lay it out, line upon line, book chapter and verse.

I have long ago lost interest in being part of some "movement". I am in fellowship with everyone in so far as they are in fellowship with Scripture. If someone departs from Scripture, well, that's their problem, not mine.

I have posted numerous times Biblical examples of worship. I have posted how God sees worship. We either get on board with His program, or do our own thing and burn in a lake of fire at the end. Our "Oneness Pentecostal", "charismatic", "Jesus People", or "Tom, Dick, and Harry" labels will avail nothing.

I identify as "apostolic" meaning I try to follow the faith and practice of the apostles. Oneness Pentecostals are a diverse group, like Baptists or "Reformed" groups. Nobody will enter the kingdom waving their favorite group's flag. We either belong to Christ and His One Apostolic church, as described in Scripture, or we will find ourselves thrust out.

It's HIS kingdom, HIS church, not the Baptists, charismatics, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, post tribbers, no tribbers, or whateverelseyouwannacallemibbers. He's the King, His word is Law, and He offers us all a chance to ride His train. "Our" trains are going off the rails, every single one of them.

[Esaias]

BTW, happy Sabbath to all!

[Esaias]

Do you all rejoice in the Lord in a Biblical manner? Are you fervent in spirit?


Fervent prayer and worship:
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; (Romans 12:11)
(fervent: zeō
Thayer's Definition:
1) to boil with heat, be hot
1a) used of water
1b) metaphorically
1b1) used of boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad etc.
1b2) fervent in spirit, said of zeal for what is good)

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)
(effectual fervent: The Greek word (ἐνεργουμένη energoumenē) would be better rendered by the word energetic, which indeed is derived from it. The word properly refers to that which has power; which in its own nature is fitted to produce an effect. It is not so much that it actually does produce an effect, as that it is fitted to do it. This is the kind of prayer referred to here. It is not listless, indifferent, cold, lifeless, as if there were no vitality in it, or power, but that which is adapted to be efficient - earnest, sincere, hearty, persevering. - Barnes' Notes)
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. (Psalm 5:11)
be joyful = ‛âlats
aw-lats'
A primitive root; to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be joyful, rejoice, triumph.
Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart. (Psalm 32:11)
rejoice = gı̂yl gûl
gheel, gool
A primitive root; properly to spin around (under the influence of any violent emotion), that is, usually rejoice, or (as cringing) fear: - be glad, joy, be joyful, rejoice.
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1Peter 1:8)
ye rejoice = agalliaō
ag-al-lee-ah'-o
properly to jump for joy, that is, exult: - be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly).

[Esaias]

BTW, I agree there is a lot of hype going on. We got better music and worse marriages, more polished preaching and more blatant immorality, higher education and lower standards, and deeper feeling and shallower consecration. Padded pews and no callouses on the knees.

Probably time for a shakeup...

bump

[Michael The Disciple]

The last Apostolic Church I attempted to be part of in the local area put it like this. As the people were praising/worshipping as many (not all) Apostolic Churches do with jerkings, wailings, marching around the building, Pastor made the statement I have heard from other Pentecostal Preachers over the decades.

If you dont worship the way they do you dont have the Holy Ghost.

[Esaias]

The last Apostolic Church I attempted to be part of in the local area put it like this. As the people were praising/worshipping as many (not all) Apostolic Churches do with jerkings, wailings, marching around the building, Pastor made the statement I have heard from other Pentecostal Preachers over the decades.

If you dont worship the way they do you dont have the Holy Ghost.

That was our last time there.

I have never heard a Oneness Pentecostal (let alone apostolic) preacher make such a statement. Here, south of the Mason-Dixon Line, such a thing would be considered to be just plain bad taste and rather boorish.

Perhaps you could lay out the Scriptures which define acceptable biblical worship?

[Michael The Disciple]

One question for anyone here.

Do you believe that there are Charismatics or Trinity Pentecostals who DO have the Holy Spirit baptism?

The question is NOT will they be saved IN THE END.

[Michael The Disciple]

I have never heard a Oneness Pentecostal (let alone apostolic) preacher make such a statement. Here, south of the Mason-Dixon Line, such a thing would be considered to be just plain bad taste and rather boorish.

Perhaps you could lay out the Scriptures which define acceptable biblical worship?

Hmmmm

To me reading your posts here seems to me like you have certainly implied the same thing many times.

[Michael The Disciple]

Perhaps you could lay out the Scriptures which define acceptable biblical worship?

I would be putting probably the same ones you have posted. Perhaps the problem I have with your explanations is you SEEM to lump all "Charismatics" together as if they all are the same.

And if you see them singing to God it can only be criticized. If they would be falling down or laughing they would be criticized. Yet if they were quiet and still they would be criticized.

Or they would be all under the reign or at least seeking the reign of the pope.

If Charismatics would use lights to enhance worship that would be of satan. But if Apostolics used ELECTRIC GUITARS OR DRUMS to do the same it would be anointed!

[Esaias]

This place is the Outer Limits. Twilight Zone. I'm reading threads from the Darkside.

Go get 'em, guys! I. Am. Outta. Here.

[Amanah]

What I find curious is those who disparage the majority of Oneness Pentecostals while promoting trinitarians, non OP house churches, practices bordering on esoteric, and separating from others because they don't agree on every point to the letter, while criticizing OP Orgs for not being more inclusive.

[Aquila]

Words matter. When everyone and their mother understands a term to mean "X", and you use that term, don't be surprised if everyone understands you to mean "X".

And if you don't mean "X" you probably should use another term to avoid confusion.

Unless you just like to create strife...

There's some truth to that, for those too lazy to ask questions to ensure that they understand what's actually being said. Lol

[Aquila]

Esaias nailed it.

Only if one assumes they know what they are talking about all the time. Questions are good. If you go back and read the posts, at one point I asked if Esaias could clarify what he thinks constitutes worship. I asked this because on my end it sounded like he supported dry, emotionless, OT style, worship with no, or very little, musical accompaniment, unless they were shofars.. Now, I knew that being a Spirit filled brother, the odds were I was mistaken. So, I asked for clarification. And truth be told, I saw little issue with his actual point, once clarified.

Of course, if I mention, meditation, contemplation, soaking, etc., I'm just called a witch. Lol :D

It was assumed what I meant, and where I stood. So it took multiple posts of me trying to defensively explain where my perspective of those things might differ from popular definition. In fact, my definition is more biblical. Eastern meditation and contemplation stills the mind to empty thought, to "blank" the mind. Christian meditation and contemplation stills the mind's reeling about bills, obligations, work, etc. to be filled with contemplative thoughts on the Word, God, Christ, salvation, the works of the Holy Ghost, or just the reality of the presence of God that can facilitate peace and healing.

I even offered the example of oldtime prayer meetings where this was actively experienced.

I'm just saying, ask questions. If Michael thinks some church offers the best worship this side of Heaven. Just ask him why he thinks that. Berating him is unnecessary.

[Aquila]

Don’t forget, the doll readings.

Right! Great example. Everyone assumed what was meant by that too. Man, from the sounds of it, I'm a broom flying, psychic, occult, yogi master. Lol

But the truth is, God can give a word of knowledge out of the blue, while laying hands on a person, in a dream, in a vision, in a circumstance, regarding an object, regarding a place, or whatever else He wills. God once gave me a word of knowledge about where I could find my car keys! Lol! Now, people might criticize why God would do the supernatural in something so mundane. But if considered, it wasn't so mundane. He miraculously opened doors for my job. It sustains me and my family. Anything that imperils my job imperils my family. When people laugh, mock, and judge, I only shake my head. Because the Lord knows, regardless as to what any mocker might think or say.

That entire drama was a misunderstanding leading to the rush to cast a mischaracterization.

I'm willing to wager that some still assume that the mischaracterization is true, though they've not asked questions nor have even tried to understand.

After being Pentecostal for over 25 years, I have come to realize that even people who should be used to the endless ways God can work, still fear, condemn, and seek to attack what is unfamiliar to their own limited experience or understanding.

[Aquila]

I'm a Christian. I follow the Bible.

No, I follow the Bible! Lol

The truth is, all one can do is follow an understanding/interpretation of the Bible.

What tickles me is that everyone demands that their lists and outlines are the absolutely right list of what we all must do. Isn't that the essence of teaching for doctrines the commandments of men?

I don't know, I've heard so many takes on it all, I find greater assurance in following the leading of the Spirit of the one whom the Bible is about.

Life in the Spirit.

[Aquila]

BTW, happy Sabbath to all!

Happy belated Sabbath!

I pray your Sabbath was blessed.

[Aquila]

One question for anyone here.

Do you believe that there are Charismatics or Trinity Pentecostals who DO have the Holy Spirit baptism?

The question is NOT will they be saved IN THE END.

Of course. Fullness of understanding isn't a prerequisite to receive the Holy Ghost, repentance is.

[Aquila]

I would be putting probably the same ones you have posted. Perhaps the problem I have with your explanations is you SEEM to lump all "Charismatics" together as if they all are the same.

And if you see them singing to God it can only be criticized. If they would be falling down or laughing they would be criticized. Yet if they were quiet and still they would be criticized.

Or they would be all under the reign or at least seeking the reign of the pope.

If Charismatics would use lights to enhance worship that would be of satan. But if Apostolics used ELECTRIC GUITARS OR DRUMS to do the same it would be anointed!

The danger of labels.

[Aquila]

What I find curious is those who disparage the majority of Oneness Pentecostals while promoting trinitarians, non OP house churches, practices bordering on esoteric, and separating from others because they don't agree on every point to the letter, while criticizing OP Orgs for not being more inclusive.

Drop the labels and just follow the Spirit. God often leads one into interesting places. Sometimes I don't realize why He has led a certain way until that chapter is over and a new chapter has begun.

I know a guy who was full of the Spirit and wisdom. His insight was awesome, second to none. One night in prayer God spoke to him saying, "Shave half your head and tell your pastor that one side is television, the other side is the internet." You have to understand, the pastor taught that if you had a television you were hell bound. But he had no problem with the internet. It was running new converts off, and saints streaming TV shows and movies were common place. He got kicked out. Lol But he followed the Spirit. Lol

[mfblume]

Happy belated Sabbath!

I pray your Sabbath was blessed.

Happy shadow-keeping to all those in the shadow of sabbath! ;)

I like the light. :thumbsup

[houston]

Happy shadow-keeping to all those in the shadow of sabbath! ;)

I like the light. :thumbsup

:happydance

[Aquila]

Happy shadow-keeping to all those in the shadow of sabbath! ;)

I like the light. :thumbsup

Happy shadow-keeping to my brothers and sisters in the light! Lol

[Esaias]

Happy shadow-keeping to all those in the shadow of sabbath! ;)

I like the light. :thumbsup

Well, isn't THAT special?

[mfblume]

Well, isn't THAT special?

Amen! Hey, check out my response to your idea that sabbath is a shadow in our day now, and what that implies about walking in the light. In the deep waters section.

[Esaias]

Amen! Hey, check out my response to your idea that sabbath is a shadow in our day now, and what that implies about walking in the light. In the deep waters section.

It's not my idea, it's the apostle Paul's.

[mfblume]

It's not my idea, it's the apostle Paul's.

I think you are misinterpreting it because your interpretation of Paul contradicts John's words of walking in light as God is in light otherwise. We all believe our interpretations of what they said is what they meant. That claim does not make it so.

[peter83]

Ok, I was told about a church last year which comes close to the one you described. Just asking.

About being oneness Pentecostal and call Benny Hinn for "deliverance" yes..

[Esaias]

I think you are misinterpreting it because your interpretation of Paul contradicts John's words of walking in light as God is in light otherwise. We all believe our interpretations of what they said is what they meant. That claim does not make it so.

Paul said "which ARE a shadow of things to come." He said that AFTER the cross. The things to come are yet future (from when he said those words). They were shadows AFTER the cross, because they were shadows of then future things when he wrote the words.

Interpretation? There is no interpretation needed to see that AFTER the cross those things were still shadows of things yet to come. That IS what he said.

[peter83]

Paul said "which ARE a shadow of things to come." He said that AFTER the cross. The things to come are yet future (from when he said those words). They were shadows AFTER the cross, because they were shadows of then future things when he wrote the words.

Interpretation? There is no interpretation needed to see that AFTER the cross those things were still shadows of things yet to come. That IS what he said.

Col.2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
Hebr.8;5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
10: 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

I sympathize you very much.cause you seem very faithful brother.
But why every time you turn any nice theme in a Sabbath-Law keeping endless conversation?
Keep in mind you can do what ever you want in order to please God but this should not be added us doctrine.
"5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Γαλ. 4:10; Κολ. 2:16; 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks"

[Esaias]

[
But why every time you turn any nice theme in a Sabbath-Law keeping endless conversation?


All I did was wish everyone a happy Sabbath. Others tried to turn THAT into a debate.

So perhaps you need to work on some things.

[peter83]

All I did was wish everyone a happy Sabbath. Others tried to turn THAT into a debate.

So perhaps you need to work on some things.

Yes.Have a nice week!

[votivesoul]

I think we can take a look at Angelic Worship and find answers for what "Apostolic" worship is supposed to look like.

Check out Isaiah 6:1-10 and the various passages in Revelation. There are others, too, of course.

[Esaias]

I think we can take a look at Angelic Worship and find answers for what "Apostolic" worship is supposed to look like.

Check out Isaiah 6:1-10 and the various passages in Revelation. There are others, too, of course.

:thumbsup

[votivesoul]

I was recently asked to attend a meeting and teach from the Holy Scriptures. And since I was following up with this thread at the time, and had been reading through Esaias's posts some pages back regarding the Biblical definition of worship, I decided to talk about worship.

The very short version is as follows:

Worship is obedience to the Lord Jesus and the commandments of God.

A bit longer version looks like this:

Singing, jumping, dancing, clapping, shouting, and the like, can all be faked. Some can do that and not be right in their heart. Turning the other cheek, being reconciled to a brother or sister is more an act of worship than any demonstrative thing we can do bodily when a worship leader tells us it's time to "Praise the Lord" then dives into a four song an we're out, time for announcements, type of setting.

[votivesoul]

I was recently asked to attend a meeting and teach from the Holy Scriptures. And since I was following up with this thread at the time, and had been reading through Esaias's posts some pages back regarding the Biblical definition of worship, I decided to talk about worship.

The very short version is as follows:

Worship is obedience to the Lord Jesus and the commandments of God.

A bit longer version looks like this:

Singing, jumping, dancing, clapping, shouting, and the like, can all be faked. Some can do that and not be right in their heart. Turning the other cheek, being reconciled to a brother or sister is more an act of worship than any demonstrative thing we can do bodily when a worship leader tells us it's time to "Praise the Lord" then dives into a four song an we're out, time for announcements, type of setting.

And with that, I took a few examples from the Scriptures on obedience:

Wives obeying their husbands
Children obeying their parents
Servants obeying their masters (e.g. employees obeying their bosses)
Obeying civil authorities

Obeying in these areas is worship unto the Lord simply because He commands us to do it. To not do so is disobedience, and are therefore, transgressions against the One we claim to love and serve.

[Esaias]

I was recently asked to attend a meeting and teach from the Holy Scriptures. And since I was following up with this thread at the time, and had been reading through Esaias's posts some pages back regarding the Biblical definition of worship, I decided to talk about worship.

The very short version is as follows:

Worship is obedience to the Lord Jesus and the commandments of God.

A bit longer version looks like this:

Singing, jumping, dancing, clapping, shouting, and the like, can all be faked. Some can do that and not be right in their heart. Turning the other cheek, being reconciled to a brother or sister is more an act of worship than any demonstrative thing we can do bodily when a worship leader tells us it's time to "Praise the Lord" then dives into a four song an we're out, time for announcements, type of setting.

In this thread I have been focused on the corporate acts of divine service more so than the individual acts of worship (such as alms, obedience to God's commands, etc). They must all be in place to be a true worshipper of God, otherwise, our service is defective. We should not ignore one class in favour of another.

[votivesoul]

In this thread I have been focused on the corporate acts of divine service more so than the individual acts of worship (such as alms, obedience to God's commands, etc). They must all be in place to be a true worshipper of God, otherwise, our service is defective. We should not ignore one class in favour of another.

I agree. But since, in so many people's mind, the pendulum has swung so far as to think that worship is just a twenty minute thing a church does once or twice a week, while some songs are playing, by attempting to swing the pendulum back to the middle, for the sake of balance, I downplayed the role of singing, dancing, and etc., to make the point.

Of course, I explained those things are a part of worship, too, but everything in their proper order.

For me, worship is just as much a solitary experience from day to day, that also includes a corporate experience whenever a church assembles. No limitations for either, but let's just make sure everyone believes and understands that worship is how you treat your spouse, your co-workers, your neighbors, the waitress at the restaurant, and etc., that has nothing to do with music, or shouting, or other expressions with which we are familiar.

[Esaias]

I agree. But since, in so many people's mind, the pendulum has swung so far as to think that worship is just a twenty minute thing a church does once or twice a week, while some songs are playing, by attempting to swing the pendulum back to the middle, for the sake of balance, I downplayed the role of singing, dancing, and etc., to make the point.

Of course, I explained those things are a part of worship, too, but everything in their proper order.

For me, worship is just as much a solitary experience from day to day, that also includes a corporate experience whenever a church assembles. No limitations for either, but let's just make sure everyone believes and understands that worship is how you treat your spouse, your co-workers, your neighbors, the waitress at the restaurant, and etc., that has nothing to do with music, or shouting, or other expressions with which we are familiar.

Excellent! Very good! :yourock

I hope they took it to heart. So many these days seem to like hearing someone flex their oratorical muscles but don't want to actually put anything into action.

[Truthseeker]

What some call worship today is mostly hype up services.

[Michael The Disciple]

So would it be better if we called it the "praise" service than a worship service when people gather to praise the Lord?

[votivesoul]

I'm not sure any particular name or label is warranted. I don't see anything in the Bible to give us a clue.

I look at life as one continuous act of worship, from born again to death. When a group of saints gather and begin to sing, clap, dance, or shout, that's just another part of life as a believer in the Body.

[Esaias]

Praise is just a part of worship.

The meeting ought to include many elements of worship: prayer, praise, reading scripture, teaching, prophesying, etc.

Too often meetings are three piece entertainment venues: music, a speech, and a collection of money. Not good.

[Esaias]

I think we can take a look at Angelic Worship and find answers for what "Apostolic" worship is supposed to look like.

Check out Isaiah 6:1-10 and the various passages in Revelation. There are others, too, of course.

Looking at Isaiah 6 and its relevance to the divine service of the church...

1. The seraphim or fiery ones have three pairs of wings. One pair covers their face, expressing humility and abasement in the presence of the All Glorious Jehovah. One pair covers their feet. Comparing this to Ezekiel's visions we can suggest the entire lower body is covered, from the loins to the toes. The feet represent one's lifestyle, actions, one's "walk". The feet are covered suggesting a covering of man's acts or deeds of righteousness so as not to be on display in the throne room. No boasting in our own works. Also that our deeds need a covering (the blood covers us, as the blood stained mercy seat overshadowed by wings). And two wings for flying, suggesting a swiftness to serve and to obey without hesitation.

2. One cried to another the Great Sanctus (echoed by the cherubim in Revelation) "Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts..." and the pillars of the doors (Jachin and Boaz, "he will establish" and "fleetness", see 2 Chron 3:17) shuddered and trembled in response. When the sum total of worship = "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord" then the house (church) is shaken (see Acts 4:31).

3. Isaiah was conscious of his failings, and confessed them in response to the glory of God. Church is a time and place (not the building, but the meeting of the saints) for one to be aware of and confess to the Lord their inadequacy.

4. One of the fiery beings proclaiming God's HOLINESS brought a burning coal from the altar and purged Isaiah's lips. The HOLINESS of God, the Holy Ghost fire-inspired declaration of and manifestation of the glorious thrice-holy Lord of All, will purge, purify, justify, and sanctify the penitent believer. The fire from the altar of burnt sacrifice purges the lips, as the fire of the Holy Ghost brought to us by the Cross of Jesus anoints us, purifies our heart, and springs out in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, and empowers us to speak TRUTH and LIFE.

5. The result of the vision, the proclamation of the glory and holiness of God, the confession of need, the purifying of the Holy Ghost at the altar of sacrifice and entire consecration, all leads to a calling: "Who will go?" Who will go and represent the Heavenly, Divine, Royal Court of God to a world in darkness, rebellion, and sin? The worshippers' response ought to be "I will go, send me."

That's church in a nutshell.

[Esaias]

Looking at Isaiah 6 and its relevance to the divine service of the church...

1. The seraphim or fiery ones have three pairs of wings. One pair covers their face, expressing humility and abasement in the presence of the All Glorious Jehovah. One pair covers their feet. Comparing this to Ezekiel's visions we can suggest the entire lower body is covered, from the loins to the toes. The feet represent one's lifestyle, actions, one's "walk". The feet are covered suggesting a covering of man's acts or deeds of righteousness so as not to be on display in the throne room. No boasting in our own works. Also that our deeds need a covering (the blood covers us, as the blood stained mercy seat overshadowed by wings). And two wings for flying, suggesting a swiftness to serve and to obey without hesitation.

2. One cried to another the Great Sanctus (echoed by the cherubim in Revelation) "Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts..." and the pillars of the doors (Jachin and Boaz, "he will establish" and "fleetness", see 2 Chron 3:17) shuddered and trembled in response. When the sum total of worship = "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord" then the house (church) is shaken (see Acts 4:31).

3. Isaiah was conscious of his failings, and confessed them in response to the glory of God. Church is a time and place (not the building, but the meeting of the saints) for one to be aware of and confess to the Lord their inadequacy.

4. One of the fiery beings proclaiming God's HOLINESS brought a burning coal from the altar and purged Isaiah's lips. The HOLINESS of God, the Holy Ghost fire-inspired declaration of and manifestation of the glorious thrice-holy Lord of All, will purge, purify, justify, and sanctify the penitent believer. The fire from the altar of burnt sacrifice purges the lips, as the fire of the Holy Ghost brought to us by the Cross of Jesus anoints us, purifies our heart, and springs out in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, and empowers us to speak TRUTH and LIFE.

5. The result of the vision, the proclamation of the glory and holiness of God, the confession of need, the purifying of the Holy Ghost at the altar of sacrifice and entire consecration, all leads to a calling: "Who will go?" Who will go and represent the Heavenly, Divine, Royal Court of God to a world in darkness, rebellion, and sin? The worshippers' response ought to be "I will go, send me."

That's church in a nutshell.

If I am not mistaken, the coal was taken with tongs off the altar. This was how the incense was lit, was it not? Coals from brass altar were taken to the altar of incense to light the incense.

So, the coal touching the lips indicates the sacrifice of Christ (and our offering of ourselves as whole burnt offerings to Him, see Romans 12:1) purifies our lips to ignite sanctified prayer (prayer is signified by incense, see Psalm 141:2, Revelation 5:8).

That sanctified prayer only comes when we have acknowledged our inadequacy, confessed it to God, and allowed His purifying fire (the Holy Ghost applying the cross to our life) to purge us.

[Tithesmeister]

I'm not sure any particular name or label is warranted. I don't see anything in the Bible to give us a clue.

I look at life as one continuous act of worship, from born again to death. When a group of saints gather and begin to sing, clap, dance, or shout, that's just another part of life as a believer in the Body.

I totally agree.:thumbsup

[Tithesmeister]

Praise is just a part of worship.

The meeting ought to include many elements of worship: prayer, praise, reading scripture, teaching, prophesying, etc.

Too often meetings are three piece entertainment venues: music, a speech, and a collection of money. Not good.

Good stuff Esaias.:thumbsup

[Aquila]

I was recently asked to attend a meeting and teach from the Holy Scriptures. And since I was following up with this thread at the time, and had been reading through Esaias's posts some pages back regarding the Biblical definition of worship, I decided to talk about worship.

The very short version is as follows:

Worship is obedience to the Lord Jesus and the commandments of God.

A bit longer version looks like this:

Singing, jumping, dancing, clapping, shouting, and the like, can all be faked. Some can do that and not be right in their heart. Turning the other cheek, being reconciled to a brother or sister is more an act of worship than any demonstrative thing we can do bodily when a worship leader tells us it's time to "Praise the Lord" then dives into a four song an we're out, time for announcements, type of setting.

:thumbsup

Great points.

[Aquila]

I agree. But since, in so many people's mind, the pendulum has swung so far as to think that worship is just a twenty minute thing a church does once or twice a week, while some songs are playing, by attempting to swing the pendulum back to the middle, for the sake of balance, I downplayed the role of singing, dancing, and etc., to make the point.

Of course, I explained those things are a part of worship, too, but everything in their proper order.

For me, worship is just as much a solitary experience from day to day, that also includes a corporate experience whenever a church assembles. No limitations for either, but let's just make sure everyone believes and understands that worship is how you treat your spouse, your co-workers, your neighbors, the waitress at the restaurant, and etc., that has nothing to do with music, or shouting, or other expressions with which we are familiar.

Amen.

[Aquila]

What some call worship today is mostly hype up services.

Sad, but true.

[Aquila]

So would it be better if we called it the "praise" service than a worship service when people gather to praise the Lord?

I think I see what the others are saying. They're saying that "worship" is primarily living a life of love and obedience. This would include Christian living, prayer, fasting, meditating on the Scriptures, being faithful to gathering, song, psalms, hymns, and perhaps some dancing, clapping, and shouting. But the singing, dancing, clapping, shouting, etc., while demonstrative, don't constitute "worship" all by themselves. In fact, they aren't necessary. Imagine a church under persecution that can't have a large building, choir, loud singing, clapping, dancing, etc. Such saints might gather rather quietly (without the demonstrative worship) by most Pentecostal standards. While those things are nice, it is living a Christian life as an act of worship that truly counts.

That's what I'm taking away from this.

[Aquila]

Praise is just a part of worship.

The meeting ought to include many elements of worship: prayer, praise, reading scripture, teaching, prophesying, etc.

Too often meetings are three piece entertainment venues: music, a speech, and a collection of money. Not good.

Ouch. Good point.

[Aquila]

*Regarding the Sabbath.

I have a blended approach. I certainly believe that we are not under the Law. And, I have also voiced how I believe that living a life of love towards others is what truly demonstrates our love for God, not law keeping. So, theologically speaking, we live in Christ, our perpetual Sabbath.

However, I have found that there are sound principles in the Scriptures. The Sabbath is one of them. We live in a very busy and production oriented world wherein we find very little true rest. Our time is eaten up by work, family, obligations, school projects, extra curriculars, etc. The principle of Sabbath teaches us that establishing a time to devote to actual rest and devotion is good for us.

So, I observe the Sabbath more voluntarily so that I might find that personal time of rest and devotion. Not because I believe the Law requires me. Nor do I see Christians who do not observe the Sabbath as sinners.

[peter83]

*Regarding the Sabbath.

I have a blended approach. I certainly believe that we are not under the Law. And, I have also voiced how I believe that living a life of love towards others is what truly demonstrates our love for God, not law keeping. So, theologically speaking, we live in Christ, our perpetual Sabbath.

However, I have found that there are sound principles in the Scriptures. The Sabbath is one of them. We live in a very busy and production oriented world wherein we find very little true rest. Our time is eaten up by work, family, obligations, school projects, extra curriculars, etc. The principle of Sabbath teaches us that establishing a time to devote to actual rest and devotion is good for us.

So, I observe the Sabbath more voluntarily so that I might find that personal time of rest and devotion. Not because I believe the Law requires me. Nor do I see Christians who do not observe the Sabbath as sinners.

Ι like the idea of seperate a day just for me and God. Althouh we all have moments alone with God ,like morning prayer and study ,worship & thanksgiving etc. But i like the idea of a principle like you said . It is a challenge for today busy life!
But i wil never get it out of a personal principle to a required from God law!
Although Sabbath keepers are not like law keepers , it can be a danger because of spiritual disorientation.
Ι place Sabbath keepers in the Romans 14:5 list and i am not aware of them, but when the things go wild we enter to a Galatians 4:10 theme .....and must be treated like Titus 1:10 way :)

[Michael The Disciple]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1516510]I think I see what the others are saying. They're saying that "worship" is primarily living a life of love and obedience. This would include Christian living, prayer, fasting, meditating on the Scriptures, being faithful to gathering, song, psalms, hymns, and perhaps some dancing, clapping, and shouting. But the singing, dancing, clapping, shouting, etc., while demonstrative, don't constitute "worship" all by themselves. In fact, they aren't necessary. Imagine a church under persecution that can't have a large building, choir, loud singing, clapping, dancing, etc. Such saints might gather rather quietly (without the demonstrative worship) by most Pentecostal standards. While those things are nice, it is living a Christian life as an act of worship that truly counts.



Well I have never thought that "worship" excludes a life of serving God. Ever.

However I think some just love a good argument.

Worship is defined by Strongs a "kiss" or "like a dog licking his masters hand".

All the things people have thrown against that are covered in tons of various scriptures.

Jesus likes to be worshiped.

Various scriptures speak of SERVING....AND...... WORSHIPING...GOD.

[Esaias]

Worship is defined by Strongs a "kiss" or "like a dog licking his masters hand".

All the things people have thrown against that are covered in tons of various scriptures.

Jesus likes to be worshiped.

Various scriptures speak of SERVING....AND...... WORSHIPING...GOD.

Nobody has thrown anything against Strong's definition in this thread.

Jesus likes to be worshipped. And He told us in Scripture how to do it. So we ought to do it the way He likes, amen? And not just how we feel like worshipping Him.

[Esaias]

Looking at Isaiah 6 and its relevance to the divine service of the church...

1. The seraphim or fiery ones have three pairs of wings. One pair covers their face, expressing humility and abasement in the presence of the All Glorious Jehovah. One pair covers their feet. Comparing this to Ezekiel's visions we can suggest the entire lower body is covered, from the loins to the toes. The feet represent one's lifestyle, actions, one's "walk". The feet are covered suggesting a covering of man's acts or deeds of righteousness so as not to be on display in the throne room. No boasting in our own works. Also that our deeds need a covering (the blood covers us, as the blood stained mercy seat overshadowed by wings). And two wings for flying, suggesting a swiftness to serve and to obey without hesitation.

2. One cried to another the Great Sanctus (echoed by the cherubim in Revelation) "Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts..." and the pillars of the doors (Jachin and Boaz, "he will establish" and "fleetness", see 2 Chron 3:17) shuddered and trembled in response. When the sum total of worship = "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord" then the house (church) is shaken (see Acts 4:31).

3. Isaiah was conscious of his failings, and confessed them in response to the glory of God. Church is a time and place (not the building, but the meeting of the saints) for one to be aware of and confess to the Lord their inadequacy.

4. One of the fiery beings proclaiming God's HOLINESS brought a burning coal from the altar and purged Isaiah's lips. The HOLINESS of God, the Holy Ghost fire-inspired declaration of and manifestation of the glorious thrice-holy Lord of All, will purge, purify, justify, and sanctify the penitent believer. The fire from the altar of burnt sacrifice purges the lips, as the fire of the Holy Ghost brought to us by the Cross of Jesus anoints us, purifies our heart, and springs out in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, and empowers us to speak TRUTH and LIFE.

5. The result of the vision, the proclamation of the glory and holiness of God, the confession of need, the purifying of the Holy Ghost at the altar of sacrifice and entire consecration, all leads to a calling: "Who will go?" Who will go and represent the Heavenly, Divine, Royal Court of God to a world in darkness, rebellion, and sin? The worshippers' response ought to be "I will go, send me."

That's church in a nutshell.

[Michael The Disciple]

Nobody has thrown anything against Strong's definition in this thread.

Jesus likes to be worshipped. And He told us in Scripture how to do it. So we ought to do it the way He likes, amen? And not just how we feel like worshipping Him.

Like a kiss? A dog licking his masters hand? Affection and adoration.

Most of the things you have cited are NOT called worship.

So who is talking worshiping as WE CHOOSE? That seems to be what you all are doing.

The tons of scriptures you have posted could more accurately be called other things like what scripture says about them

Worship is worship. Adoration toward God. Thats what he wants given in spirit (the heart) and truth.

Its to simple.

[Esaias]

.

Most of the things you have cited are NOT called worship.

Never mind.

[Esaias]

Perhaps brother Michael could lay out the Scriptures which show what Biblical, God-pleasing worship looks like?

I've asked this before but got nowhere. Maybe this time we can get someone to bring Bible to the discussion since obviously I don't have a clue what I've been babbling about, I guess I'm just posting random scriptures that have nothing to do with worship?

We await the Scriptural truth to be presented.

[Michael The Disciple]

Let us recall a few things first. Joe Bandy started this thread questioning some of the practices that occur in UPC type Churches. Since I agreed with at least part of what he was saying I followed it for a while.

What I noticed was at least in the beginning of your rebuttal to him you were strongly defending against what he was putting forth. You hammered him about bowing or being prostrate as if that was ALL he thought was acceptable. It seemed like several of you were very hard on him.

So what I gathered was that the practices among UPC Churches were being praised very much and Joes questions were pretty much mocked.

As when Joes question about people speaking out loud in the Church in tongues or Preachers hollering tongues into the mic was given again it was rebuked even tho he had an excellent point.

Now I cant remember who all said what so this may have not been you. Frankly I dont feel like reading this entire thread again to pinpoint who said what in every case.

To me this is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of people just doing whatever they want in their way of worship.

Altho Paul and therefore Christ reproves such practice clearly will Pentecostals and Charismatics repent and come in line with the truth?

So at point in time I enter the thread which was started by a Brother who seemed to be looking for a more restrained yet spiritual form of worship....as defined by the thread starter which I understood perfectly.

He was referring to when saints sing and praise and what is called WORSHIP THE LORD IN PRACTICALLY EVERY APOSTOLIC CHURCH IN THE WORLD

So somewhere at that point I enter with a video stating if there had been music like that when my folks made me go to Church as a child...I would have begged them to take me!

So from the time I entered the thread what I have met with is I dont have a clue what worship is. We are told that basically worship is our entire life. Now to be serving God must entail our entire lives but I believe worship is certain acts of praise and adoration.

Joe gave a good definition of OT worship in bowing down to the Lord and falling before him. Instead of people agreeing with the definition of the word and perhaps encouraging him in what he was seeing people here attacked him mercilessly as if he was somehow wrong.

If in the OLD Testament bowing toward God is called worship SPECIFICALLY whats wrong with that? Does it mean one could not REJOICE IN GOD in the OTHER WAYS scripture mentions we should do? So the thread became all about the word "worship". What is it? You had no problem understanding initially when you were defending UPC type "wildness" as you called it once.

But when I brought the IHOP worship into the thread you changed. Then "worship" was not praising and adoring the Lord but it became ones entire life. I suppose that way fault could be found with IHOP and I brought out things among Apostolics that if you and I judged them we would call heresy.

So then the conversation becomes so complicated neither one of us really wanted to stay in it. So in my next post I will try to point out a few things where I think you wrote prove at least one point I am trying to make.

[KeptByTheWord]

I wanted to do a study of what apostolic worship means, according to scripture. Not sure if in this 60+ page thread that has been done.

According to scriptures where worship of God is described ... it was accompanied with an action... and it was not a musical instrument, or singing voice... it was an action...

2 Chronicles 20:18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the Lord, worshipping the Lord.

Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

Exodus 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

2 Chronicles 7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

2 Chronicles 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

2 Chronicles 29:29 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped.

2 Chronicles 29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

Nehemiah 8:6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

Psalm 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalm 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

Psalm 99:5 Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mark 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.



True apostolic scriptural worship was not about the music/song/dance, but rather an act of bowing oneself to the ground. This entire 60+ page thread has centered almost entirely on music/voice. But scripturally, that is not what worship is

So now the question is... what should our present day apostolic worship look like with this scriptural understanding?

For myself, the most powerful times of being in the presence of the Lord was not in the song and the dance, but on my knees, with self completely dethroned, and my heart full of adoration for the Lord. It was these times, sometimes around a church altar, many times on my bed, or by my couch or rocking chair that my worship of the Lord involved my heart completely surrendered to Him... on my knees.

There is really a great importance to bending the knee in worship as can be seen with the weight of scripture.

[Michael The Disciple]

When you said this:

In the "old days" you had to calm folks down. Now we gotta pump em up?

What does THAT tell us?

Was it not in the context of "worship"?

[KeptByTheWord]

You described worship as prostration, falling prone before God. I asked if that is what you do in church and you indicated it is NOT what you do.

So, just to be clear, when you go to church, do you fall prone on your face for the duration of the worship portion? Or whenever a call to worship is given?

Tough luck if you're by yourself, then, eh?

I've too many experiences alone with God where I have felt His presence when I worship and praise Him. Whether it's praise and dance, or intercessory prayer while prostrate before Him -- whenever I call Him, He's there. It doesn't take two. It doesn't always include me being face down and prone.

Sometimes it's when I praise Him in the shout and dance. Sometimes it's when I bow or prostrate myself in quiet prayer. Sometimes it's in intercession when I can hardly form words in prayer.

There's no one formula for meeting with God. There's no one position in which we meet with Him.

So you take one verse and claim worship is only face down and prone?

Have you met David? ""And David danced before the LORD with all his might;""

Can you show me in scripture where IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD one does not fall or kneel?

Okay, so I went back for a few pages, and this is some of what I found. I provided the scripture references that Joe Bandy did not provide, at least so far I haven't found them.

Those of you scoffing at prone worship, how can you deny the weight of scripture, and what worship really means?

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias:

Biblical Worship

That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. (Romans 15:16)

Worship in two aspects
Our daily life:

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:19-27)

Also, corporate worship – when we come together:

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Leviticus 23:2)

Feasts = 'moed' or appointment, an appointed time or meeting.
mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):

Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:3)

Holy convocation = mik-raw'
something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:

So God has 'feasts' or 'appointments' which are holy or sacred 'meetings' for His people. The first and primary appointed time is the weekly Sabbath. This is a time for God's people to gather together for a sacred or holy purpose: meeting with God.

Do you realize there is not one verse here that mentions this as WORSHIP? If I missed it please point it out. It describes the SERVICE OF GOD or his order but nowhere is it called "worship".

[KeptByTheWord]

I also want to make clear that there is an obvious difference in scripture between worship and praise. Most of the references to praise in scripture involve music, singing, dance, instruments etc. But worship always involved bowing to the ground, according to scripture.

So perhaps what we are calling apostolic worship, is more correctly termed apostolic praise.

Apostolic worship would be prone, on one's knees or face down on the ground. The four and twenty elders around the throne in heaven weren't praising, but worshiping the Lord.

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias


Church = ekklesia
(Thayer's Definition)

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

The 'church' then is the gathered together assembly of believers, both in the sense of the gathering, and the ones gathered together. Christians are called together into a relationship with Christ and one another. What do God's people do when they gather together to worship God?

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. (Hebrews 8:1-5)

By looking at the old covenant system of worship, we can see a type or discern the pattern of heavenly, Spiritual worship.
There was a tabernacle – a tent with an outer courtyard, a wash basin, a brass altar for burning sacrifices, a tent building with the first room containing a golden menorah, table of shewbread, and a golden altar for offering incense. A curtain, behind which is the holy of holies, containing the ark of the covenant. The ark was a gold covered box in which was the Ten Commandments written on the two stone tables, covered with a lid that was called 'the mercy seat', with two cherubim carved on it, and served as a sort of throne. There was a daily (“continual”) sacrifice, once in the evening, and once in the morning. This pointed to Christ being a continual sacrifice that made the whole system of worship sanctified, or acceptable to God.There was a lighting of the candlestick, and offering of incense before the inner curtain at the golden altar of incense. People also brought to the priests their personal offerings of various types – sin and tresspass offerings, voluntary free will peace offerings, etc. Only priests could minister in the tabernacle properly.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:15)
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:10)
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:16)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1Peter 2:5)

The old covenant system of worship is a pattern, or shadow, or type, or picture of the new covenant worship. The church is called together to offer up spiritual sacrifices under the new covenant, which include not only our godly living, sharing with one another, and serving one another, but also the sacrifices or offerings of praise and prayer. Here are some elements of Biblical prayer:

Standing in prayer:

At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day. (Deuteronomy 10:8)
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (Psalm 24:3)
Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God, (Psalm 135:2)
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11:25)
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (Luke 18:13)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:9)

Here when you get down to saying what happens when the Church WORSHIPS...its exactly what I believe it is.

PRAISE AND PRAYER.

[KeptByTheWord]

It saddened me to see people scoffing in this thread at being prone and falling to one's knees, which is really true worship, according to the scriptures.

[Michael The Disciple]

I also want to make clear that there is an obvious difference in scripture between worship and praise. Most of the references to praise in scripture involve music, singing, dance, instruments etc. But worship always involved bowing to the ground, according to scripture.

So perhaps what we are calling apostolic worship, is more correctly termed apostolic praise.

Apostolic worship would be prone, on one's knees or face down on the ground. The four and twenty elders around the throne in heaven weren't praising, but worshiping the Lord.

This brings greater clarity to the subject.

[Michael The Disciple]

KBTW posted:

2 Chronicles 7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

This contains both praise and worship! It was something they were doing in reverence and adoration to YAH.

The way worship has been defined here makes worship the entirety of our lives taken together. Our lives must be lived in spirit and truth but thats not the definition of the word.

Jesus meant for our WORSHIP to be acceptable it must be done in spirit and in truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Daniel 3:28

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Many verses declare that serving God is distinct from worshiping him. It "worship"can probably be contained INTO the entirety of serving him. Yet serving him cannot be entirely contained in worshiping him.

[Esaias]

I'm now 100% convinced people only read about 20% of what's posted on this forum. Im going to adjust my posting habits accordingly.

[Michael The Disciple]

I know how you feel. I posted a video that seemed spiritual and holy and wind up fighting about it for many pages.

I dont feel happy Esaias if I have offended you. I usually agree with you on many things.

[Esaias]

I know how you feel. I posted a video that seemed spiritual and holy and wind up fighting about it for many pages.

I dont feel happy Esaias if I have offended you. I usually agree with you on many things.

Don't worry about it. I doubt our differences are as sharp as they sometimes seem when posting on a forum.

:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

Don't worry about it. I doubt our differences are as sharp as they sometimes seem when posting on a forum.

:thumbsup

Love ya Bro:highfive

[peter83]

Jon Thurlow and his buddy Todd White:

Jon Thurlow One Thing 2016 (with Todd White) - AN…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpa6NJeV_bY

I watched a better one! with Alice Cooper.

[RachelRose]

And those guys weren't stuffy wet blankets either. Jeff Arnold would always make a point to scare my wife when at the church. One night in prayer just before taking the platform, Arnold was a couple minutes late. We were all, hands raised, eyes shut, praying for God to move in the service. Arnold quietly walked up the steps towards us, reached through the bars of the hand rail and grabbed my wife's ankle! She jumped and started screaming, and we lost it because we knew he'd get her somehow! Lol

Serving God was enjoyable, fun, and refreshing. Everyone wasn't so critical. We loved and trusted one another. We sought to understand one another, not tear each other down. We had one anothers backs, in spite of our different perspectives. We didn't look for heresies just to discredit another minister in the hopes of taking his position or to boost ego. The heresy hunters aren't about truth. They're about slander and power grabbing. I certainly don't remember anyone slandering a brother over the style of music he likes. (Though, we might tease or razz you a bit).

Those were great days before Pastor Shearer fell asleep and everything became all about how hard you enforced the rules, politics, positions, slander, big money, and posturing.

Honestly, I miss those days sometime.

That is a great story. I wonder if we will not return to those days.

Something I miss from the days I was in South Korea: we all got along on the base. WE HAD TO. All the Jesus Name people just came together and we met in houses. There was no other way. The military did not recognize us as a "real" religion so we had no place.