I have a sincere question. No ulterior motives. I have heard, I believe from DKB, that OT saints were forgiven by grace through faith. My question is, what was the object of their faith? was it the messiah, God or the word of God as expressed in the Torah? keep in mind that the bible rarely mentions the messiah outright, most mentions are allusions to his coming.
Hebrews 11 is a great chapter on faith with verse 6 of that chapter saying "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
So... without faith in GOD, it is impossible to please God... whether you lived in the OT or in NT times... without faith in GOD, it is impossible to please Him.
Technically speaking, they were *not* forgiven. As Timmy got partially right, they performed animal sacrifices under the old covenant; but these did not forgive their sins, merely push them back another year. Those who lived under this law, had their sins pushed back through the ritual sacrifice until the death of Jesus. His crucifixion finally bought their forgiveness.
Technically speaking, they were *not* forgiven. As Timmy got partially right, they performed animal sacrifices under the old covenant; but these did not forgive their sins, merely push them back another year. Those who lived under this law, had their sins pushed back through the ritual sacrifice until the death of Jesus. His crucifixion finally bought their forgiveness.
I am sorry but reading this post, made me realize something, that has been on the edge of my brain for some time. "those that lived under the law, did not have their sins forgiven, Their sins were only pused back bn the ritual of sacrifice" Is this truly how we believe?
No wonder so many of us are set in a performance based religion, we teach salvation was based on performance from the begining. Can any one see God was not about salvation, but relationship with his creation. Based on faith in the existance of God, not animal sacrifices.
Animal sacrifices were more for worship to God, giving of ones increse, a gift, than it was to gain forgiviness. With the exception of individual sin sacrifices, there was one and only one sacrifice offered a year for the sins of ALL Isreal. This was the sacrifice that pushed their sins ahead. The rest of the daily sacrifices offered were offered as praise and worship to God.
The temple/tabernacle, was not intended to be a so called tangable plan of salvation, rather, the physical throne room of God on earth in the middle of his people. God was their king, the tabernacle was his palace, where God dwelt. Where today God is to be our king by faith, his throne room (palace) is the heart of individual, collectively we make up the kingdom of God, (church).
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Study the word with and open heart For if you do, Truth Will Prevail
22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
i'm thinking, just like in nt salvation, faith in God that is demonstrated by obedience to the word. 2 complementary aspects of salvation. any comments?
I am sorry but reading this post, made me realize something, that has been on the edge of my brain for some time. "those that lived under the law, did not have their sins forgiven, Their sins were only pused back bn the ritual of sacrifice" Is this truly how we believe?
No wonder so many of us are set in a performance based religion, we teach salvation was based on performance from the begining. Can any one see God was not about salvation, but relationship with his creation. Based on faith in the existance of God, not animal sacrifices.
Animal sacrifices were more for worship to God, giving of ones increse, a gift, than it was to gain forgiviness. With the exception of individual sin sacrifices, there was one and only one sacrifice offered a year for the sins of ALL Isreal. This was the sacrifice that pushed their sins ahead. The rest of the daily sacrifices offered were offered as praise and worship to God.
The temple/tabernacle, was not intended to be a so called tangable plan of salvation, rather, the physical throne room of God on earth in the middle of his people. God was their king, the tabernacle was his palace, where God dwelt. Where today God is to be our king by faith, his throne room (palace) is the heart of individual, collectively we make up the kingdom of God, (church).
You try to disagree with me, then agree with me? That's exactly what I said.
I have a sincere question. No ulterior motives. I have heard, I believe from DKB, that OT saints were forgiven by grace through faith. My question is, what was the object of their faith? was it the messiah, God or the word of God as expressed in the Torah? keep in mind that the bible rarely mentions the messiah outright, most mentions are allusions to his coming.
They were saved by faith
Enoch, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not have any scriptures at all.
The Torah begun with Moses, and even then Faith still was the way people were saved. The Law only made their sin obvious and showed them a better way to live.
The first Christians did not have a New Testament, they used the Torah of Moses to preach about Jesus.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
Enoch, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not have any scriptures at all.
The Torah begun with Moses, and even then Faith still was the way people were saved. The Law only made their sin obvious and showed them a better way to live.
The first Christians did not have a New Testament, they used the Torah of Moses to preach about Jesus.
Amen! So, Jesus is also in the OT, as well as the NT. The OT souls had faith in the work of Calvary to come, and in the Messiah... and in the NT, we have faith in the work of Calvary that took place, and in the Messiah.
And, whenever Peter and Paul mentions "scriptures" in the NT, they are not referring to their own writings, but they are referring to Torah. Romans 4:3, Romans 11:2, Gal. 4:30, II Tim. 3:16, 2Peter 1:20, 2Peter 3:16... these all say "scripture" and at the time of these writings, there was no such thing as the NT then, only the Torah scriptures, so...
The Torah was the scripture for the church of the NT.
So, indeed, our faith in the Messiah is what saves us, both OT and NT souls.
Amen! So, Jesus is also in the OT, as well as the NT. The OT souls had faith in the work of Calvary to come, and in the Messiah... and in the NT, we have faith in the work of Calvary that took place, and in the Messiah.
And, whenever Peter and Paul mentions "scriptures" in the NT, they are not referring to their own writings, but they are referring to Torah. Romans 4:3, Romans 11:2, Gal. 4:30, II Tim. 3:16, 2Peter 1:20, 2Peter 3:16... these all say "scripture" and at the time of these writings, there was no such thing as the NT then, only the Torah scriptures, so...
The Torah was the scripture for the church of the NT.
So, indeed, our faith in the Messiah is what saves us, both OT and NT souls.
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Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
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