Agree-Disagree Three sources of religion

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Too limited of a list, IMHO. Perhaps you were also just intending the "sources of religion" relevant to 20th Century Americans?

The Council of Nicea was actually a bust, initially. The next 3 Roman Emperors were all Arians and pushed Arian theology. Then, the 4th Emperor after Nicea (Julian the Apostate) renounced Christianity as a whole. It was Theodosius who finally started to tear down "pagan" temples and to really promote "The Catholic Faith" - thought Roman Catholicism was still centuries away.

"We" (OPs) are "Children of the Reformation" in many ways. However, the bulk of our theological baggage was inherited from Wesley ("Perfectionism") and the English Brethren Movement (Dispensationalism) - though both of these were also "Children of the Reformation."

The teachings of the ancients (the apostles of the First Century) has been all but lost. We may mouth some of their words but we really do miss out on their meaning all too often. Our literalism ("Fundamentalism") is less than 200 years old.

Just some thoughts.

The interesting thing to me is that to my knowledge, this sort of thing is so easy for folks sitting there warm in pews to simply accept, for some it just floated over their heads, and even others, it means absolutely nothing because the culture is doing just fine to convince them of the truth.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

...
2. The Reformation and the article written by Martin Luther

...

I wonder to what extent the apostolic movement can be tied to #2.

20th Century Apostolic Faith Movement arose from Charles Fox Parham's wrestling with the consequences of Wesley's Christian Perfectionism and the Holiness Movement as a whole. The Holiness people of the 19th Century were constantly debating the exact process by which a believer became "sinless" due to their own desire to exist in a state free from worldly temptations and sin.

Wesley was influenced by the Moravian Brethren, an offshoot of the Hussite Reformation of the 13th Century. This was sometimes called "the First Reformation." Wesley was also inspired by the Roman Catholic spiritualist Thomas à Kempis. Add to this the fact that Wesley's Anglicanism was a circumvention of the Reformation that was going on in Continental Europe and I've almost talked myself out of calling ourselves "Children of the Reformation." LOL.

Parham was looking for a "sign," some sort of benchmark that would establish the point at which a believer became "holy and sinless" - the state or condition Wesley and the Holiness Movement advocated and sought. He decided upon "speaking in other tongues" and deliberately planted this idea with his students to create the idea that they had all "discovered" this truth together. In fact, he had been teaching this years before at Zion, Illinois. This was long before he ever came to Topeka.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

The interesting thing to me is that to my knowledge, this sort of thing is so easy for folks sitting there warm in pews to simply accept, for some it just floated over their heads, and even others, it means absolutely nothing because the culture is doing just fine to convince them of the truth.

Yeah. I see your aim, now (I think). And, complexity is something we all tend to resist. Yet, complexity is just how the universe (and we, ourselves) work. We would all do well to stop and ponder these things. Now you can see why I squirm so much when I'm listening to most OP preachers. They're just butchering reality.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Too limited of a list, IMHO. Perhaps you were also just intending the "sources of religion" relevant to 20th Century Americans?

The Council of Nicea was actually a bust, initially. The next 3 Roman Emperors were all Arians and pushed Arian theology. Then, the 4th Emperor after Nicea (Julian the Apostate) renounced Christianity as a whole. It was Theodosius who finally started to tear down "pagan" temples and to really promote "The Catholic Faith" - thought Roman Catholicism was still centuries away.

"We" (OPs) are "Children of the Reformation" in many ways. However, the bulk of our theological baggage was inherited from Wesley ("Perfectionism") and the English Brethren Movement (Dispensationalism) - though both of these were also "Children of the Reformation."

The teachings of the ancients (the apostles of the First Century) has been all but lost. We may mouth some of their words but we really do miss out on their meaning all too often. Our literalism ("Fundamentalism") is less than 200 years old.

Just some thoughts.

Wow.. .good stuff. Never knew the bolded, and I've had MANY classes that talked about Nicea.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Wow.. .good stuff. Never knew the bolded, and I've had MANY classes that talked about Nicea.

Athanasius died in exile. First Constantine himself sent him from Egypt to the German Rhineland because the bishop was stirring up political strife. Then, after returning to Alexandria following the death of Constantine, Athanasius was again exiled, this time by the Arian devotee Constantius II.

In fact, just about every Roman Emperor from Constantine to Valens appears to have exiled Athanasius. He had his supporters in Alexandria and Rome, but the majority of Christians at this time appear to have been Arians. The oft cited "Athanasian Creed" wasn't actually written until about the 6th Century after Trinitarianism had finally taken root.