Hate Of Reformed Theology

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I understand your point but I think you miss mine. I feel he is playing both sides of the fence.

Actually, you're hearing two sides of the fence because your binary thinking put them there, Luke. It's not really a fence at all!

Even what you just said is seriously flawed. The work is Christ empowered(grace) by his Spirit. It is not MY work. It is HIS to do

Well, that was the entire subject the the thread we went back-and-forth on, "is sanctification God's work?" Glad we agree. But what I don't get is that you say in the end, we are judged by our works -- that's not jiving here. I am hearing two sides of the fence now

and to follow IF I choose. I know Socialite agrees on certain concepts but he also fails to be consistent.

Consistent to who or what? Not all things are either/or, often times they are both/and. This is the case.

As any person on the OSAS would call his last post WORKS BASED LEGALISM. Yet because I have different view to him I AM THE WORKS BASED.

Not following you. I'm not concerned what others label or call what I believe. I try to stay as close to scripture as I can.

Sorry know this whole argument all to well. You have doctrines that "it is hard to lose salvation" "easy to lose salvation" and "can't lose salvation" with a few variances in between. I cannot agree with his position as it is contradictory to way to many things. Narrow road is not hard to lose. My biggest difference is with it is easy is IMO God looks in the end at the sum of your work and your current position(justification) affects part of that.

Fair enough. You believe what you believe. I just believe God looks at HIS work, not my work, to justify me. And I think I have the majority of NT scripture on my side.

Are we still judged and have to "give account" for what we do? Yes. But what if that doesn't mean eternal judgment? We are the righteousness of Christ.

You are still in covenant/status with God but it can be bad or good.

Luke, this is the part I had a hard time following you. When I'd ask, I usually got reprimanded for not knowing my covenants enough. I really wanted to explore this more with you.

You cannot have lukewarm and "hard to lose." That is why reformed teachers HAVE TO ARGUE they where never saved in the first place.

I don't take that view. Though it's definitely true for some.

You cannot have people doing good with endurance etc... and lost and with total reprobate status about to be cast on you if you don't turn back to your first love and repent and have "it is hard to lose". Rev 2 church of Ephesus.

The judgment is about the SUM of your works. Justification is a short view of current standing concerning the work God has given you. In the end god will judge you worthy or not according to your faith(response) in total.

Read that. Doesn't that sound legalistic and in complete contrast to the whole of Galatians and Romans to you? Justification is temporary?

So how can we know we are saved? What assurance do we have that the Almighty won't send us to hell because we just weren't good enough anyway?

[BroGary]

Ok, let me ask a simple question to clarify a very basic point:

Does anyone here actually believe in "once saved, always saved" ? - that after someone has been genuinely born again, that it would be impossible for them to not make Heaven no matter what ?

(not trying to make a fuss, just honestly wondering because it is not super clear based on some of the posts if anyone actually believes in "once saved, always saved" or not)

[Acoustic]

I do but terming it as OSAS I think is not helpful as it suggests that you can continue in sin. I think Perseverance of the Saints is a more accurate title. A quick summary of why I believe this is; the wk of Christ on the cross atoned for ALL my sins including the one I am yet to commit. The payment has been made by agents outside of us - our rejection of the payment has no bearing of what it has paid for. John 6 talks about those given to the Son by the Father will never be lost.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Ok, let me ask a simple question to clarify a very basic point:

Does anyone here actually believe in "once saved, always saved" ? - that after someone has been genuinely born again, that it would be impossible for them to not make Heaven no matter what ?

(not trying to make a fuss, just honestly wondering because it is not super clear based on some of the posts if anyone actually believes in "once saved, always saved" or not)

Not sure if anyone here does, but I don't, nor do I believe anyone else contributing on this thread. There are some orthodox Calvinists that do. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. They teach discipleship, sanctification, etc just like you or I do. They don't take that to mean one should behave like an unbeliever. That misunderstands their view.

Luke keeps repeating that accusation, but I finally just had to ignore it.

I can speak for my own theology, and for me, that's just not true.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

I do but terming it as OSAS I think is not helpful as it suggests that you can continue in sin. I think Perseverance of the Saints is a more accurate title. A quick summary of why I believe this is; the wk of Christ on the cross atoned for ALL my sins including the one I am yet to commit. The payment has been made by agents outside of us - our rejection of the payment has no bearing of what it has paid for. John 6 talks about those given to the Son by the Father will never be lost.

So there is one. Fair enough.

It's not a make-or-break position to me. And I've learned much, and have been positively influenced by Calvinist, and New Calvinists brothers.

[Acoustic]

Originally Posted by Socialite

So there is one. Fair enough.

It's not a make-or-break position to me. And I've learned much, and have been positively influenced by Calvinist, and New Calvinists brothers.

I am similar on how dearly I hold to the doctrine - it seems be a logical conclusion but not something I hang my faith on if yo know what I mean. I think how we understand Justification and Sanctification has a much larger bearing on how we live the Christian life

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

I am similar on how dearly I hold to the doctrine - it seems be a logical conclusion but not something I hang my faith on if yo know what I mean. I think how we understand Justification and Sanctification has a much larger bearing on how we live the Christian life

Right, there are ways we "understand" theology, but we don't "believe" in it. My believing is reserved for Jesus.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

I do but terming it as OSAS I think is not helpful as it suggests that you can continue in sin. I think Perseverance of the Saints is a more accurate title. A quick summary of why I believe this is; the wk of Christ on the cross atoned for ALL my sins including the one I am yet to commit. The payment has been made by agents outside of us - our rejection of the payment has no bearing of what it has paid for. John 6 talks about those given to the Son by the Father will never be lost.

No offense intended towards Acoustic, but I have to respectfully disagree. There are too many other scriptures that would indicate that John 6 does not mean someone has a guarantee of Heaven even if they die as a backslider in an unrepentant state.

I'll share just one set of scriptures here:

Our names are added to the "book of life" when we are genuinely born again according to scripture, the scripture below shows that your name could be blotted back out if you are not an overcomer.

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...."

.......and the following verse shows the consequences of not having your name in the book of life:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(I am not saying it is easy to lose your salvation at the drop of a hat so to speak, but I would not want anyone to have a false assurance that they could backslide and still make Heaven if they did not repent and return to God before leaving this life)

Originally Posted by Socialite

Not sure if anyone here does, but I don't, nor do I believe anyone else contributing on this thread. There are some orthodox Calvinists that do. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. They teach discipleship, sanctification, etc just like you or I do. They don't take that to mean one should behave like an unbeliever. That misunderstands their view.

Luke keeps repeating that accusation, but I finally just had to ignore it.

I can speak for my own theology, and for me, that's just not true.

I wasn't totally sure of your stand on "OSAS" but thanks for clarifying, and like I replied to Acoustic, I'm not saying a person can lose their salvation at the drop of a hat, but it is possible to lose out for eternity if they die as a backslider without having repented and returned to God.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

I do but terming it as OSAS I think is not helpful as it suggests that you can continue in sin. I think Perseverance of the Saints is a more accurate title. A quick summary of why I believe this is; the wk of Christ on the cross atoned for ALL my sins including the one I am yet to commit. The payment has been made by agents outside of us - our rejection of the payment has no bearing of what it has paid for. John 6 talks about those given to the Son by the Father will never be lost.

actually OSAS and Preservation of the Saints are two different things. They are confused togethor.

[Acoustic]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

actually OSAS and Preservation of the Saints are two different things. They are confused togethor.

Thats right, i alluded to that in my post but most ppl do not see the differences

BroGary I agree there are scriptures that clearly discount osos ie texts that says not to sin. but if you want to look at perseverance of the saints it needs to be answered in reference to the other doctrines it sits with; TULIP from Calvinism. Those scriptures you used, when viewed through tulip, affirm God's grace and work in the lives of the saints but do not contradict perseverance of the saints.

This thread is why I love theology - discussing God's word, not to win an argument but to share our love of scripture.

SDG