Christian hostages murdered by Somali Pirates

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Other than it's just weird (and necromancy is forbidden, is it not?), there's no difference at all. You ask someone other than God to do something for you, in both cases. If that is why it's wrong to pray to saints, then it must also be wrong to ask your friend for a favor.

Some Roman Catholics consider the church to be made up of two groups --the church triumphant (those already in heaven) and the church militant (those people still here on earth). The idea is that just as you would ask someone here on earth to pray for you, you can ask someone already in heaven (someone who has been declared a saint) to pray for you.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Had to leave for awhile. I answered earlier when I posted I don't know. Regardless, what he did doesn't negate NT teaching on idolators WILL NOT inherit the kingdom. OT folks did alot of crazy stuff but doesn't justify me doing it.

BTW How does relate to idolatry today?

But you claim that idolaters are lost. Solomon was an idolater. If you don't know what happened to Solomon, you have no business making such claims about people today who you feel might be caught in the trap of idolatry.

Read the 10 Commandments; according to these Laws, God was not pleased with idolatry at any time, and that includes the time of Solomon. Paul was doing nothing more than fortifying Old Testament teachings. Whether you were an idolater in the Old or New Testament, it makes no difference.

This is one reason why we must consider Solomon, as we endorse his teachings and writings as Truth for us today, and we use his wisdom to help us understand God. In fact, the book of Proverbs is probably one of the most widely used books of the Bible. If idolaters are lost, then Solomon's teachings should be banished from Scripture.

I'll tell you what ALL of us struggle with in Faith and Religion; our deepest fear is, FAILURE! We don't know how to deal with Failure. When people fall, the issue becomes a HOT POTATO! This happens because our "Group" that we thought was perfect, is now flawed. Take divorce; this hot potato gets thrown around, and people don't know how to react to broken families and the trauma of divorce. Some preachers feel divorce is NEVER acceptable, while others feel completely the opposite.

But it's the FAILURE, it's the SIN, it's the WRONG which people do that leaves us scrambling with, "Who's Saved, and who isn't?" Until we step back and remember, when Jesus looked at the righteous man, then at the sinner, pointing his finger at the sinner and basically saying, "YOU WIN", we will continue to judge people with unproven realms which are motivated by terror. It’s our way of getting the job done. It’s how we convince people who don’t agree with us.

Apostolics can be the worst of the worst when it comes to this, because we have a very strong focus on the outward. The outward becomes the smokescreen to cover fault and failure. For instance, if a man is told he can’t remarry because he’s been married before, he may come to Church and lift his hands, run the aisles, cry at the altar, and dress with sleeves to his wrists. But his secret life will become perverted, while unnatural affection snares him. He has his fault, but he will cover it to protect his image.

Truthseeker, God can save an idolater, a thief, a murderer, a demoniac, a drunkard, a liar, and a whoremonger. He can save a man who was the wisest man in the World, Solomon, even after his heart was drawn away by a false idea. A few pages before his recorded downfall, I see a man who might have been under too much pressure, and too big of a spotlight.

In fact, Solomon became an idol himself, as EVERY King in the land esteemed him as having untouchable wisdom. People from everywhere came seeking advice from Solomon, and his downfall may have been the people themselves.

Also, like Pelathias mentioned, RC's don't intentionally worship idols. I was a Catholic for 18 years, going to Catholic School, was an altar boy, prayed the rosary, went to confession, went through Catechism, and NEVER did I feel I was worshipping anyone but God.

You are also avoiding the fact that we have our own forms of vain worship, and that humans are drawn into a focus which is tangible. Let's face it, it can be hard worshipping a Being you never see or talk too. This is why even in the Apostolic movement we might use a Cross or a painting to give us some form of spiritual visage.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Other than it's just weird (and necromancy is forbidden, is it not?), there's no difference at all. You ask someone other than God to do something for you, in both cases. If that is why it's wrong to pray to saints, then it must also be wrong to ask your friend for a favor.

Sam summed it up pretty well. The RCC is "petitioning" a saint to pray for them... and NOT "worshiping" the saint. At least they're not supposed to.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, "
This is how the angel greeted Mary - Luke 1:28 - no worship here.

"and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
A summation of the words further spoken by the angel - Luke 1:30-35

"Holy Mary, Mother of God,"
This includes the the "Θεοτόκε" statement that many say was added later. "Θεοτόκε" is Greek for "God bearing" or "Mother of God." Technically, this does sum up what the angel was saying when he described the "Son of God" that was to be born from Mary's womb.

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
This is the petition asking Mary, the mother of Jesus to pray for the one saying these words. Christians commonly as other Christians to pray for them.

Nothing here about "worship" nor even submission like we see in the "Lord's Prayer:"

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
...

For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

There. A "defense" of the "Hail Mary." Is this a "FIRST" on backslidden AFF?

[Socialite]

Pel, yeah I recall having a dialogue with Sam on this topic on another thread.

The difference being praying... err... asking the dead for intercession.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Here it is, black and white. Was Solomon lost?

But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

He was not only an Idolater, he was a whoremonger. Will you answer the question?

The bible does not answer the question of Solomon's salvation. We have no idea if he turned to God before dying

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The bible does not answer the question of Solomon's salvation. We have no idea if he turned to God before dying

Would God have us read the words of regenerate hell-bound bastard of God?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Sam summed it up pretty well. The RCC is "petitioning" a saint to pray for them... and NOT "worshiping" the saint. At least they're not supposed to.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, "
This is how the angel greeted Mary - Luke 1:28 - no worship here.

"and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
A summation of the words further spoken by the angel - Luke 1:30-35

"Holy Mary, Mother of God,"
This includes the the "Θεοτόκε" statement that many say was added later. "Θεοτόκε" is Greek for "God bearing" or "Mother of God." Technically, this does sum up what the angel was saying when he described the "Son of God" that was to be born from Mary's womb.

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
This is the petition asking Mary, the mother of Jesus to pray for the one saying these words. Christians commonly as other Christians to pray for them.

Nothing here about "worship" nor even submission like we see in the "Lord's Prayer:"

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
...

For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

There. A "defense" of the "Hail Mary." Is this a "FIRST" on backslidden AFF?

If this is where the Catholic religion left it, maybe I wouldn't be so sure in my view of them as IDOLATERS.


When praying to these "saints" to pray on one's behalf, there is the automatic response of reverence for these human beings-- a reverence that lends itself to rival the reverence deserved only for our GOD and Savior.

Furthermore, praying to these "saints" does very little to foster the Biblical truth of our abilities to "boldly approach the throne."

Instead of "asking our Father", trusting in Our Father, and believing in the ability and willingness of our Father to answer our call, the practice of praying to others to pray for us lends itself to asking, trusting, and believing in the ability and willingness of whoever we are praying to, that they might do something on our behalf.

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

-James 1:17



To call Catholicism a religion of idolatry is not a stretch at all.

While we're at it, there is not much good we should say about the theology of the Mormons and JW's too.

The people may be nice, but their belief system is flawed, faulty, wrong, false.

The belief systems of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholicism, and Mormonism will not lead anyone to eternal life with Jesus Christ as these belief systems do not encourage a biblical faith in, "the only wise God our Savior, {to whom be} glory, majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

-Jude 1:25

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Pel, yeah I recall having a dialogue with Sam on this topic on another thread.

The difference being praying... err... asking the dead for intercession.

The practice does presume that "the dead" are in a position to actually hear and then to petition the Throne themselves. There are a myriad of beliefs concerning the immediate afterlife. I'm not persuade by any of their claims, so I tend to leave "the dead" alone. I figure they've got enough to worry about without my nagging complaints. Or not. It's supposed to be "rest," isn't it?

I'm just perpetually puzzled by some who will pompously post an assertion like, "Catholics are going to hell for idolatry" - and then to find out that the person making the post actually knows almost nothing about the teachings of the RCC outside of whatever they've gleaned from a Chick Comic Book.

How can you post anything on a public forum with such certainly when you obviously have no clue what you're talking about? Even using a pseudonym, I'd be so ashamed of myself and embarrassed that I'd devote my life to further study. Forget the Catholics - I'm the one who needs to be right. At least that's the way I look at it.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

If this is where the Catholic religion left it, maybe I wouldn't be so sure in my view of them as IDOLATERS.


When praying to these "saints" to pray on one's behalf, there is the automatic response of reverence for these human beings-- a reverence that lends itself to rival the reverence deserved only for our GOD and Savior.

Furthermore, praying to these "saints" does very little to foster the Biblical truth of our abilities to "boldly approach the throne."

Instead of "asking our Father", trusting in Our Father, and believing in the ability and willingness of our Father to answer our call, the practice of praying to others to pray for us lends itself to asking, trusting, and believing in the ability and willingness of whoever we are praying to, that they might do something on our behalf.

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

-James 1:17



To call Catholicism a religion of idolatry is not a stretch at all.

While we're at it, there is not much good we should say about the theology of the Mormons and JW's too.

The people may be nice, but their belief system is flawed, faulty, wrong, false.

The belief systems of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholicism, and Mormonism will not lead anyone to eternal life with Jesus Christ as these belief systems do not encourage a biblical faith in, "the only wise God our Savior, {to whom be} glory, majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

-Jude 1:25

I'm no advocate of the scheme, however, I offered my thoughts in response to those who were more condemning and less critically thinking than yourself.

I suppose the idea is more fertile in areas where there appears to be little hope to "come boldly before the throne of grace" and actually see some answers to real world needs.

Going back to Somalia for a moment, though it is not a Christian community, its current socio-political mess mirrors conditions in Medieval Europe. For many people, just getting one child into adulthood was a dream. Famine, disease, the constant plundering raids from the continuous warfare, it all added up to a condition of misery where a lot of people might end up questioning their "faith." Any help for the desperate would certainly be sought.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I'm no advocate of the scheme, however, I offered my thoughts in response to those who were more condemning and less critically thinking than yourself.

(1) I suppose the idea is more fertile in areas where there appears to be little hope to "come boldly before the throne of grace" and actually see some answers to real world needs. Going back to Somalia for a moment, though it is not a Christian community, its current socio-political mess mirrors conditions in Medieval Europe. For many people, just getting one child into adulthood was a dream. Famine, disease, the constant plundering raids from the continuous warfare, it all added up to a condition of misery where a lot of people might end up questioning their "faith." (2) Any help for the desperate would certainly be sought.

(1) I'd imagine it is in those areas where it would not be uncommon for the adherents to have trinkets, maybe even miniauture statues, in honor of the dead people they are hoping will do something for them. This is a very broad generalization, still it pervades and the trinkets and statues lead many down the path of idolatry.

(2) I was immediately reminded of the phrase, "no other help I know."


Emotionally, it's not nice to think of people as deceived idolaters-- especailly when our understanding of the Bible leaves little (if any) hope for the idolater.


1 John 5:13 states, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

There are Bible verses that serve as a contrast to this verse, outlining the works of darkness. What does the Bible say?

As for these murdered Americans, our statements or beliefs on their eternal destination means very little-- they are already there and have been there for a few days now.

Where are we going?

How do we help other people so that they don't meet the same fate of the murdered Americans?

The Christian response is to kill the pirates who pose a threat to the lives of those sent to bring law and order to that region-- those who are sent to bring peace.