We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Things like take up our crosses, deny ourselves and follow Him. Matthew 5-7 shows his commandments, indicating Moses said one thing, but he said things beyond that. But they are more like beatitudes. BE this and BE that. Commandments for the heart.

I really like your answer. The commandments of Christ are not the OT commandments, but NT principles of grace. Christ's teachings in the Sermon on the Mount focus more upon the heart. However, many of the teachings of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount still contain OT law. Again, Christ tells us that to be forgiven we must forgive others. Paul admonishes us to forgive others because we have already been forgiven. Jesus illustrates divorce law that comes from the Law, yet Paul expounds upon it in I Corinthians 7 allowing for more a more liberal approach.

I find that the Sermon on the Mount is just as challenging as the Law of Moses, if not more so. Christ basically breaks down the root issues that the Law doesn't address, yet still within the framework of the Law. It would almost appear that Jesus is taking the Law straight to the heart of a man, bringing sure conviction and condemnation. For example, Christ's teaching involving lust. What man hasn't lusted in some fashion at some point? The listerner would no doubt stand eyes wide thinking, "After hearing the words of Jesus, I realize I've shattered the Law in my heart, though I've not actually 'done' anything in my 'actions' against the Law." Christ's teachings appear to corner the reader, forcing them to realize, they are sinful to the uttermost. One gets the impression that Christ's entire life and teachings were designed to expose the core principles of the Law...to bring all to the point of realizing their need for a Savior.

But for the most part I agree. The Sermon on the Mount embodies the very principles that are foundational to being a Christian.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I really like your answer. The commandments of Christ are not the OT commandments, but NT principles of grace. Christ's teachings in the Sermon on the Mount focus more upon the heart. However, many of the teachings of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount still contain OT law. Again, Christ tells us that to be forgiven we must forgive others. Paul admonishes us to forgive others because we have already been forgiven. Jesus illustrates divorce law that comes from the Law, yet Paul expounds upon it in I Corinthians 7 allowing for more a more liberal approach.

I find that the Sermon on the Mount is just as challenging as the Law of Moses, if not more so. Christ basically breaks down the root issues that the Law doesn't address, yet still within the framework of the Law. It would almost appear that Jesus is taking the Law straight to the heart of a man, bringing sure conviction and condemnation. For example, Christ's teaching involving lust. What man hasn't lusted in some fashion at some point? The listerner would no doubt stand eyes wide thinking, "After hearing the words of Jesus, I realize I've shattered the Law in my heart, though I've not actually 'done' anything in my 'actions' against the Law." Christ's teachings appear to corner the reader, forcing them to realize, they are sinful to the uttermost. One gets the impression that Christ's entire life and teachings were designed to expose the core principles of the Law...to bring all to the point of realizing their need for a Savior.

But for the most part I agree. The Sermon on the Mount embodies the very principles that are foundational to being a Christian.

Which I have been saying all along. Jesus took the Law of Action, and made it The Law of the Heart (of which can only be fulfilled by faith in Christ).

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If we are in sin at any given time we should be afraid. If we ARE a Christian Jesus says he will rebuke and chasten us. Then if we dont repent why would we think we will enter his Kingdom? Jesus said better to pluck out eye, cut off hand than to commit a sin.

Men teach we cannot be consistently obedient to Jesus. They could not be more wrong.

You preach another Gospel, another Jesus. I sincerely feel pity for you and anyone you influence spiritually. You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

[deacon blues]

Here's the deal with Matthew 5-7. After the beatitudes and admonishing his listeners to be salt and light, Jesus begins to address the misconceptions about the Law. He begins by saying "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it." Making it very clear that He was not anti-Law, because He is about to shatter conventional wisdom about the Law.

The Pharisees taught that one could achieve righteousness through obedience to the Law---which is true. The problem was they actually believed that one through hard work and discipline could achieve righteousness. Therefore they had interpretations of the Law that were accomodating to their weaknesses.

The Law said a man could divorce his wife for uncleanness. The Pharisees taught that if a man didn't like his wife's cooking he could consider her an unclean wife and divorce her. Therefore if a man divorced his wife and remarried, according to Jesus, he is committing adultery because "uncleanness" didn't mean what they said it did.

Jesus sayd "you have heard it said...but I say to you..." He is contrasting what the religious leaders said was true with what He said is true of the Law. Saying that "if you look upon a woman and lust..." He is pointing out the universality of mankind's sinful state. "Be ye perfect" is not a NT command, as if wee could achieve that. No, the statement "be ye perfect" is in reference to the demand that the Law makes. The Law demands perfectio.

Which brings us back to Christ's original statement about fulfilling the Law. He was the spotless lamb, the perfect sacrifice. He met the expectation for perfection the Law required, thus making Himself the perfect sacrifice.

We are made perfect in Him. Saving faith and trusting Jesus for our perfection takes the pressure off of any of us to strive for perfect obedience. I strive to keep trusting Him and believing Him for my salvation.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Here's the deal with Matthew 5-7. After the beatitudes and admonishing his listeners to be salt and light, Jesus begins to address the misconceptions about the Law. He begins by saying "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it." Making it very clear that He was not anti-Law, because He is about to shatter conventional wisdom about the Law.

The Pharisees taught that one could achieve righteousness through obedience to the Law---which is true. The problem was they actually believed that one through hard work and discipline could achieve righteousness. Therefore they had interpretations of the Law that were accomodating to their weaknesses.

The Law said a man could divorce his wife for uncleanness. The Pharisees taught that if a man didn't like his wife's cooking he could consider her an unclean wife and divorce her. Therefore if a man divorced his wife and remarried, according to Jesus, he is committing adultery because "uncleanness" didn't mean what they said it did.

Jesus sayd "you have heard it said...but I say to you..." He is contrasting what the religious leaders said was true with what He said is true of the Law. Saying that "if you look upon a woman and lust..." He is pointing out the universality of mankind's sinful state. "Be ye perfect" is not a NT command, as if wee could achieve that. No, the statement "be ye perfect" is in reference to the demand that the Law makes. The Law demands perfectio.

Which brings us back to Christ's original statement about fulfilling the Law. He was the spotless lamb, the perfect sacrifice. He met the expectation for perfection the Law required, thus making Himself the perfect sacrifice.

We are made perfect in Him. Saving faith and trusting Jesus for our perfection takes the pressure off of any of us to strive for perfect obedience. I strive to keep trusting Him and believing Him for my salvation.

The concept that Christ brought was nothing new. Through out time, salvation needed Faith. Faith in the Word. By Faith Abraham.... We as Christians must have Faith in the Word also, but have a greater understanding that the Word was made Flesh. This was done so we new how to fulfill the Law ourselves with a perfect example.

I have a hard time with people that totally dismiss the Law, saying "it is not relevant for our times" or "It was only for the Jews". That is a very said misconception and interpretation.

Yes the Pharisees had come up with expansions to the law, be the still relied on the flesh. Jesus took the law and made it a heart issue.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Actually, Jesus' commandments fulfilled the Law. Even though we do not have every word said by Jesus, we do have the essence of what he taught, by what the Apostles (or their disciples) recorded.

We do know that Jesus taught on the Law. The Law should not be taken lightly, but we have to proper apply it to our lives and cultures. This is what Paul was explaining in a lot of his writings.

I believe that “the Law” (meaning the Law of Moses) was explained by Paul to be a “curse”, the “ministry of condemnation”, given so that sin might be “exceedingly sinful”, given so that sin would actually “increase”, essentially not only revealing, but even stimulating man’s sinful nature. The Law’s purpose was NEVER to lead to holiness or righteousness. The entire purpose of the Law was simply this… to condemn. That doesn’t make the Law evil, however. For if it was not for the Law, we’d had not known “sin”. Therefore, I think that any attempt to “apply the law” to our lives is a misapplication of the Law. In fact, Paul says that we are “dead to the Law” because of having died in Christ. The covenant was broken and is no longer applicable, just as marriage when a spouse dies. The Law’s purpose in God’s grand design was therefore to be a schoolmaster that would fully condemn us, forcing us to accept Christ or perish. That is the Law’s purpose in Christ Jesus.

God's word is established forever. Jesus even stated that not one Ioda would be left out (Dotting of the I and crossing of the T). Heaven and Earth would pass away before that would happen. So we must be weary of brushing off the Law as not relevant to your Christian life. For the Law shows you what Sin is, so that you may over come it by the blood of the Lamb.

Amen. While the Law will not pass away, its purpose is definitely different in light of the New Covenant. I don’t believe it identifies sin that we might overcome sin. I believe that it reveals sin that grace might overcome sin. I heard a pastor ask a question a few weeks ago. He asked, “Do Christians sin less than unbelievers?” The crowd was quiet. He went on to explain how he is not sure if Christians actually sin less than unbelievers, and if they do, it isn’t by much. He closed his message by explaining how the longer he is a Christian, the more conscious he becomes of his sinful tendencies, this drives him to his knees pleading for God’s mercy and grace several times a day.

I’ve not met a single human being who has “overcome” sin yet. I know some who sin a little less than others…but they still “sin”, thus they haven’t “overcome” sin. (Some days they freak out and essentially make up the difference). Remember, sin isn’t so much an action…it’s a principle at work in the flesh. We all have the disease. But it flares up with symptoms (visible actions) in some more than others.

One thing that Jesus did say, was that because of our hearts, no one could ever fulfill the spirit of the Law. That could only be achieved by Faith in Jesus Christ, with the renewing of our minds, and being Born Again as the new man Adam.

I have a slight difference with this statement. I see what you’re saying, I taught it for years. However, I’ve come to a different perspective. God’s intention isn’t to empower us to fulfill the Law through faith in Jesus Christ to be holy. In fact, the one pursuing such an end will find themselves missing the Father’s ultimate will and desire for every human soul. The Father’s ultimate will and desire for every human soul is to be made holy by…being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. Jesus is our standard. No laws, regulations, standards, or traditions. Christ alone. We are to image Jesus in our very identities. One might be motivated to strive and keep the Law by what he reads about Jesus…but such a one will never be accepted in the Father’s sight. The only one who will be accepted in the Father’s sight is he or she who has been conformed into the image of Christ Jesus through putting on Christ, having the mind renewed, and being tried in the fires of suffering.

The Law’s point is that “we can’t”. Every false religion teaches what works one must do to go to Heaven, Paradise, Nirvana, or whatever. Every religion has it’s dietary laws, it’s dress codes, it’s social mores, and traditions. But “biblical” Christianity has none of this. Biblical Christianity’s message is, “You are hopelessly vile and sinful to a Holy God. You can do nothing to be saved. Therefore being saved isn’t predicated upon what you do for God, but rather what God has done for you…behold… Calvary.”

Second, a lot of the standards of the UPC stem out of teachings of Separation. Have you ever wondered why they teach against facial hair? It was to separate ourselves from the "Jesus Movement" of the 60's (especially here in California). These were hippies and bikers, that were "preaching Jesus" but living sinful lives. Actually, quite a few of the Holiness/Oneness teachers of the Early 1900's had facial hair.

I’m reminded of something that happened in the first church I attended. We had monitors that fed the sanctuary services into the Sunday School Department so that staff in the office of SS could keep up with the message. Of course, this church strongly forbade owning a television. Well, a new convert’s child saw the monitors playing the sanctuary service and made a comment about why they were allowed to watch TV in the Sunday school office but he wasn’t allowed to watch TV at home. Instead of teaching this child the difference… the Pastor had every monitor ripped out of every department in the church (Sunday School, Nursery, Youth Group, the School, the School’s office). I was floored. The entire church was real quiet during the evening service because nursery workers, used to keep up with what was going on the sanctuary…but now the departments were dead silent. I shook my head and was disgusted. Instead of educating this kid about the difference between a monitor and a television and television programming, the Pastor hacked off something that wasn’t harmful at all and left all of us who worked hard in these departments feeling cut off from the main service. Why? I think it was because he isn’t a leader…he’s a reactionary. A little kid sent him running to “prove something”. Having been in the Army… I saw it as a pathetic and unnecessary demonstration of power. But he was like that.

Here’s my angle….

We are separated by God, unto Himself. We are also separated by our devotion to Jesus, and our seeking allows Christ to be our very life, living through us. We are not separate because of the clothes we wear. That’s a cheap counterfeit for the kind of separation Jesus truly desires. Jesus said that the world would know that we were His disciples because of our love for one another and would glorify our Father when they behold our good works of love and charity towards the lost and hurting. We’ve watered separation down to dress codes and fried chicken on Sunday night. If someone were to inquire as to if are anything like those “hippies” or “Jesus Movement People”… why not explain the REAL difference between us and them? Sadly we’ve embraced a legalistic standard that just makes us look “weird” and “cultic”. In my opinion…it’s greatly hindered our message.

Lastly…we all lead sinful lives. It’s just some sin far less than others. We aren’t any better than those hippies in God’s eyes.

But the bible does teach, that if you are going to have facial hair, that you do not follow after the traditions of Egypt (the World), but to follow specific guidelines of the Law (especially for the Priests).

Israel’s separation was almost entirely outward. They weren’t partakers in the divine nature through the Holy Ghost and the Spirit’s work of regeneration. Nothing changed “in them”, the change was all outward appearance. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would advise anyone that would question the Holiness standards, to search the scriptures, read the writings of previous Holiness Preachers, so that you understand where they are coming from on a specific subject. A lot of it is based on common sense and convictions by the Word and Spirit.

I don’t think this is wise. I mean, I know a pastor who banned leather coats and motorcycles in his church because of bikers. One saint of God was a cop who was far from being a biker. Reluctantly he finally sold his bike and threw away his leather jacket. I thought the whole situation was STUPID. And it’s a weak, flimsy, counterfeit for true “separation”.

I would say most of them are not a Heaven or Hell issue. But one scripture comes to mind for that. Hebrews 12:1 - "1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and(A) sin which clings so closely, and(B) let us run(C) with endurance the race that is(D) set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith,(E) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising(F) the shame, and(G) is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

The key there is Weight and Sin. Things that can be a weight to us, might not be a sin, but we are still commanded to set it aside.

But here’s the problem… the leather jacket and the motorcycle wasn’t a weight for the police officer who rides a motorcycle as part of his law enforcement career and has a leather jacket with a badge on it that he wears to work. Where in the world are pastors getting this stuff???????? Now it’s rebellion if he wears a leather jacket and rides a motorcycle on his free time…but it’s perfectly acceptable if he’s at work.

A beard is a weight? Maybe this testifies to the power behind our message. It’s so weak it can’t be preached through a beard. Women are saved by grace and damned by scissors. The TRUE “greasy grace” is the one that’s preached as though it can slip right through your fingers if you stumble.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Which I have been saying all along. Jesus took the Law of Action, and made it The Law of the Heart (of which can only be fulfilled by faith in Christ).

Right.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Actually, Jesus' commandments fulfilled the Law. Even though we do not have every word said by Jesus, we do have the essence of what he taught, by what the Apostles (or their disciples) recorded.

Right. When Jesus said he fulfilled the law, it was not that he promoted adherence to law, but that the law expired as though it had an expiry date that would occur when that which law could not accomplish would be accomplished by another means.

Paul told Timothy that the Law's goal was to produce unfeigned faith, a good conscience and charity out of a pure heart. Law could not accomplish that. What the law could not do, Christ did! And that is why Paul then tells Timothy that grace is filled with the very love and faith that Law meant to provide. That is how Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Romans 8:3-4 corresponds to 1 Tim 1:5, 14. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit in faith for God to empower us rather than walking after the flesh in efforts to obey law. And this walk by the Spirit is provided through the work of Cross which is what Jesus meant by saying He came to fulfill the law.

We do know that Jesus taught on the Law. The Law should not be taken lightly, but we have to proper apply it to our lives and cultures. This is what Paul was explaining in a lot of his writings.

Law is basically self making self righteous, and it does not work due to the sin in our flesh. So walking after the flesh is living by law. Jesus came so that we might walk after the Spirit and thereby see the works of the flesh cease, and there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit that results.

God's word is established forever. Jesus even stated that not one Ioda would be left out (Dotting of the I and crossing of the T). Heaven and Earth would pass away before that would happen. So we must be weary of brushing off the Law as not relevant to your Christian life. For the Law shows you what Sin is, so that you may over come it by the blood of the Lamb.

Jesus said something wonderful about law not passing away, and many miss it. He said heaven and earth passes before law will pass away. But he also said that the law WAS UNTIL JOHN THE BAPTIST. IOW, John's ministry heralded the end of law which heaven and earth could not otherwise outlive!

The law is holy! It is not evil or wrong. But it expired since man could not live by it.

That is why Jer 31:31 said a NEW COVENANT would come for Israel, which opened up to us gentiles as well. And the new covenant came because MAN COULD NOT CONTINUE IN THE OLD. The NEW covenant allows for the law to be written in our HEARTS instead of a reference note on stone. When it is in your heart, your nature has been changed to do what is right without having to force self through walking after the flesh. So, the law could not be kept and people could not continue in it.

Many make the mistake of trying to turn the New Testament into another form of law by emphasizing the incorrect concept of reading it and making ourselves obey it, when we might as well still be under law if we do it that way. That is walking after the flesh.

One thing that Jesus did say, was that because of our hearts, no one could ever fulfill the spirit of the Law. That could only be achieved by Faith in Jesus Christ, with the renewing of our minds, and being Born Again as the new man Adam.

Second, a lot of the standards of the UPC stem out of teachings of Separation. Have you ever wondered why they teach against facial hair? It was to separate ourselves from the "Jesus Movement" of the 60's (especially here in California). These were hippies and bikers, that were "preaching Jesus" but living sinful lives. Actually, quite a few of the Holiness/Oneness teachers of the Early 1900's had facial hair.

Exactly. And now it is 50 years past that time and the standard is useless now.

But the bible does teach, that if you are going to have facial hair, that you do not follow after the traditions of Egypt (the World), but to follow specific guidelines of the Law (especially for the Priests).

That is not an issue today, since the issue in olden times was making it evident to sinners a pagan association which is not the case today.

I would advise anyone that would question the Holiness standards, to search the scriptures, read the writings of previous Holiness Preachers, so that you understand where they are coming from on a specific subject. A lot of it is based on common sense and convictions by the Word and Spirit.

I would say most of them are not a Heaven or Hell issue. But one scripture comes to mind for that. Hebrews 12:1 - "1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and(A) sin which clings so closely, and(B) let us run(C) with endurance the race that is(D) set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith,(E) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising(F) the shame, and(G) is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

The key there is Weight and Sin. Things that can be a weight to us, might not be a sin, but we are still commanded to set it aside.

I agree. But many of the holiness standards are not addressing that, as well.

[Timmy]

Aren't you glad God made the instructions so crystal clear?

[NorCal]

I agree with everything you stated on the Law. The Law is there to show us sin (as well as conviction by the Holy Ghost about stuff that the Law does not cover).

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly. And now it is 50 years past that time and the standard is useless now.
That is not an issue today, since the issue in olden times was making it evident to sinners a pagan association which is not the case today.

I do not agree with this. There are Fads and Fashions can be (and most often) sponsored by Spirits that we should never condone. Spirit of Homosexuality, for example. Living in Northern California, you can tell a gay man, not only by their demeanor, but by their Clothing Choice, Hair Style and look of their Facial Hair Trimming. Once again, why would you want to even make people wonder about that with you. Would that not be a weight to your witness?

Would you not consider that a Pagan association? Hippies have gone as far as to worship "Gia" or "Mother Earth". Is that also Pagan association?

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. But many of the holiness standards are not addressing that, as well.

That has been my point all along. Holiness is no longer really taught. Just standards. We need to put off every sin and weight so that we may draw closer to God. Why loosen your standards, when in all actuality, according to Jesus teachings on the Law, you should every day tighten them as the Holy Ghost pricks your heart.

I was listening to Bro Bernard about this. He stated that he rejoices that the morality of the world is diminishing. This brings the Power of the Holy Ghost and the Apostolic Message to the point of the workings in biblical days among the Gentiles. When people can see a true difference between your life in Christ and their heathen/philosophical life style, and the Power that the Holy Ghost is working in you, you become an even greater testimony to the Name.

Romans 12:2 - "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."