If A Man Die

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by faithit166

mike do you believe those that are lost are being tormented right now

The only basis for believing that would be from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Nothing else would point that way. When we look at the straight doctrine and reconcile parables and visions to it instead of the other way around you will see the difference.

No one is currently burning in Hell.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by faithit166

mike do you believe those that are lost are being tormented right now

Think of it this way. When we discuss the Godhead with Twins and Trins we take them to the OT in order to show them foundational truths. We know if we were to jump right into the New Testament with them or doctrine would seem false.

But when we begin to compare scripture with scripture things begin to get clear. Its the same way with this. Those who try to understand death and resurrection from the New Testament without the understanding that was given in the Old will not get it.

The OT does not speak of people being tormented in Sheol. It speaks of them dying and not being conscious.

[Michael The Disciple]

MB

Again, do you believe the soul ceases to even so much as exist?

Well yes Mike thats the point of the doctrine.

What is a soul anyway?

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen. 2:7

Moses said man is a living soul. So when Job teaches what happens when a man dies you can know what happens to a soul when it dies. It ceases to exist.

104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

So man started out as dust. Then the breath/spirit of God was breathed into that statue of dust and it became a living soul. It never existed before that.

When God takes away the breath man dies going back to dust as he started.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well look at the context.

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

Job says the grave will be HIS (not my bodies) house. He says he will make HIS (not his bodies) BED in the darkness. The metaphors are perfect. He will be in the darkness of the grave. That is where he will make his bed. What does one do ON A BED? A bed is for SLEEPING.

Job was saying his death would be like he was asleep. Jesus used the metaphor about Lazarus. The Bible is full of that terminology. So the answer as to what does Job waiting for the resurrection have to do with sleeping is very simple.

He is explaining the WAITING PERIOD between his death and his resurrection. Remember the first thing said is IF I WAIT. He said nothing about instant Heaven. Why? The Spirit never inspired him to do so. Rather it inspired him to say what he did say. We learn from what is taught not from what is not taught.

That was a good objective post. Thanks.

As we both know, we must weigh forth the issue with all scriptures. Before the cross, those of us who believe in present torment in hell believe the saints in Sheol did not suffer. Neither were they in Heaven. Sheol contained both the saints and sinners, while sinners suffered in Gehenna whereas the saints did not. It is as though Sheol contained two parts to it. Gehenna and Abraham's bosom. This accounts for the gulf in Christ's words about Lazarus and the rich man.

Anyway, Job never knew of anything other than a resurrection to one day come. What he said did not contradict anything in the rest of the bible. You just cannot write about what you do not know about.

Jesus said hell has fire. And hell is known to be cast into the lake of fire later. You said hellfire is only for those who LIVE again and are cast into the lake of fire. But that does not agree with the thought that hell fire is not the fire from the lake but from hell. And if hell is cast into the lake of fire, then it is from one state of fire to another, with the lake of fire being permanent as opposed to the temporal fire of hell. All this demands that Job's words refer to his body. His body is as much a part of him as is his soul and spirit. We are spirit, soul and body.

Again, Paul's words of being absent from the body to be present with the Lord find no place in soul-sleep theology. The soul remains with the body in the grave and rises with the body to be with the Lord. There is no absence from the body in such a scenario. All of this demands Job's words to refer to the body.

[Michael The Disciple]

MB

He knew nothing about the state of man after death, whether conscious or asleep. These things were revealed later.

This is what brought my comment "unreal". Look at what you said. He knew nothing about the afterlife? There is no way you could say that imo if you actually read the 3 part posts I wrote.

Job taught with authority about the afterlife and the resurrection and what he said agreed with the rest of the teaching in the OT concerning it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well yes Mike thats the point of the doctrine.

What is a soul anyway?

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen. 2:7

Moses said man is a living soul. So when Job teaches what happens when a man dies you can know what happens to a soul when it dies. It ceases to exist.

104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

So man started out as dust. Then the breath/spirit of God was breathed into that statue of dust and it became a living soul. It never existed before that.

When God takes away the breath man dies going back to dust as he started.

The soul is more than breath. It is mind, emotions and will. It did not exist before God breathed Life into it, amen. The soul is what thinks, etc. And if the soul ceases to exist at death then God must recreate the soul upon resurrection. So it now becomes an issue much like what the Jehovahs' Witnesses teach in re-creation, only it is re-creating the soul in this case whereas JW's see the body re-created..

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is what brought my comment "unreal". Look at what you said. He knew nothing about the afterlife? There is no way you could say that imo if you actually read the 3 part posts I wrote.

Job taught with authority about the afterlife and the resurrection and what he said agreed with the rest of the teaching in the OT concerning it.

That view does not agree with Paul's words and Christ's words about hell fire, though. How is the soul absent from the body if the soul is ever present with the body in the grave and later rises with the body? As far as Job was concerned, he would be in the grave. But what about greater light revealed in the NT, where we read of things wise men and noble men have desired to know and knew them not?

[Michael The Disciple]

MB

As we both know, we must weigh forth the issue with all scriptures. Before the cross, those of us who believe in present torment in hell believe the saints in Sheol did not suffer. Neither were they in Heaven. Sheol contained both the saints and sinners, while sinners suffered in Gehenna whereas the saints did not. It is as though Sheol contained two parts to it. Gehenna and Abraham's bosom. This accounts for the gulf in Christ's words about Lazarus and the rich man.

Can you present any scripture backing this belief from the Old Testament?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Can you present any scripture backing this belief from the Old Testament?

It is from all the words of hell in both the old and the new testaments. The saints of the old did not have the insight the Lord and apostles had later in the new. It is not true that everything we need to know is found in the old. The view of soul sleep contradicts the new testament words about hell, as I have been saying.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That view does not agree with Paul's words and Christ's words about hell fire, though. How is the soul absent from the body if the soul is ever present with the body in the grave and later rises with the body? As far as Job was concerned, he would be in the grave. But what about greater light revealed in the NT, where we read of things wise men and noble men have desired to know and knew them not?

So if there was greater light given in the subject of the afterlife why not the Godhead? We dont allow Trins to go there when it comes to the Godhead so why should WE do it concerning this?

The Old Testament gives us good sound teaching on death and resurrection. When one looks at the plain sound doctrine of the New Testament it AGREES with what Job and the other OT teachers taught.

Hopefully I will get caught up enough to present THE FOUNDATION scriptures from the prophets concerning death and life and resurrection. Then the difference will become apparent.