If A Man Die

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No it does not if you dont understand what he meany by what he said. And by the way what about the things Job taught us? No comment? Was he deceived?

I first copied my post from the other thread to answer you here with it. And I did not respond to your initial post here yet.

In his teaching on resurrection of the dead Paul sounds much like Job. This is the event Job had been waiting for. Now he could be set free from the gates of Sheol/Hades!

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

What is the hope Job spoke of? Was it not to be raised from the dead? Was it not to be set free from the bars of the pit which was Sheol/Hades?

Job taught that all went to this place at death. They slept there together in the dust until the time of their change. They were being held captive by the gates of Sheol/Hades.

Yet our redeemer who Job prophesied would stand on the Earth on the latter day said:

I agree Job looked forward to resurrection. What has that got to do with sleeping, though? Again, do you believe the soul ceases to even so much as exist? You said it is not actual sleeping as though life is there and one dreams. What is SOUL SLEEP? Is ti cessation of the existence of the soul? Is it the soul ceases to function? If you have answers to these questions, then you have left them out as gaps which are required for us to get your thoughts.

Job knew nothing about afterlife except a resurrection one day. He knew nothing about the state of man after death, whether conscious or asleep. These things were revealed later. They say JOB is probably the first book ever written amongst the books of the bible. Job would not therefore know of Genesis either.

Also he speaks of his HOUSE. Does the soul stay in the body in the grave? Or is this the house for the body? Or is the grave turned into the soul's house instead of the body? Too many holes are in Job's words, which I honestly think Job did not know. So Job did not lie, but he cannot speak about what he does not know. This is in no way proof there is soul sleep. Far from it.

Also, you yourself said SHEOL is the Hebrew word for grave and pit. SHEOL is the realm of the dead. You assume GRAVE is all that sheol meant since the translators said GRAVE is the translation. But look at what SHEOL also means:

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.


H7585
שׁאל / שׁאול
she'ôl
BDB Definition:
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7592
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2303c

So insert those definitions in those verses as well. If we consider ONLY "GRAVE", what is it in the verses that suggest GRAVE is the meaning other than the choice to translate the word into "grave"? The Hebrew only said SHEOL, which includes the underworld, and abode of the dead, and place of exile and punishment. Change the word from GRAVE to these others and see nothing else in the verse limits it to grave, anyway.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mblume said

Job knew nothing about afterlife except a resurrection one day. He knew nothing about the state of man after death, whether conscious or asleep. These things were revealed later. They say JOB is probably the first book ever written amongst the books of the bible. Job would not therefore know of Genesis either.

What he knew nothing about the state of the dead? Unreal! He taught about it with the same confidence any of the inspired writers did. The problem is you cant see that all the teaching on death in the OT no matter from who disagrees with your view.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What he knew nothing about the state of the dead? Unreal! He taught about it with the same confidence any of the inspired writers did. The problem is you cant see that all the teaching on death in the OT no matter from who disagrees with your view.

I would like to see some explanations rather than your "unreal" remarks. Please discuss this in an organized manner and respond to my questions and statements, as I am with yours.

Job knew about resurrection, and that was all. Nothing Job said contradicts anything about a conscious soul existence after death. All he said was that he would go to sheol. What is sheol? The grave? That is one definition, but what about the others? What did Job say aside from the word SHEOL to restrict it to the grave as you insist it is restricted? What is it about the words he said that make SHEOL the grave and not any of the other definitions? It is a far cry from saying there is no conscious existence of the soul upon death than to say Job looked for SHEOL to be his house.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I first copied my post from the other thread to answer you here with it. And I did not respond to your initial post here yet.



I agree Job looked forward to resurrection. What has that got to do with sleeping, though? Again, do you believe the soul ceases to even so much as exist? You said it is not actual sleeping as though life is there and one dreams. What is SOUL SLEEP? Is ti cessation of the existence of the soul? Is it the soul ceases to function? If you have answers to these questions, then you have left them out as gaps which are required for us to get your thoughts.

Job knew nothing about afterlife except a resurrection one day. He knew nothing about the state of man after death, whether conscious or asleep. These things were revealed later. They say JOB is probably the first book ever written amongst the books of the bible. Job would not therefore know of Genesis either.

Also he speaks of his HOUSE. Does the soul stay in the body in the grave? Or is this the house for the body? Or is the grave turned into the soul's house instead of the body? Too many holes are in Job's words, which I honestly think Job did not know. So Job did not lie, but he cannot speak about what he does not know. This is in no way proof there is soul sleep. Far from it.

Also, you yourself said SHEOL is the Hebrew word for grave and pit. SHEOL is the realm of the dead. You assume GRAVE is all that sheol meant since the translators said GRAVE is the translation. But look at what SHEOL also means:

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.


H7585
שׁאל / שׁאול
she'ôl
BDB Definition:
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7592
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2303c

So insert those definitions in those verses as well. If we consider ONLY "GRAVE", what is it in the verses that suggest GRAVE is the meaning other than the choice to translate the word into "grave"? The Hebrew only said SHEOL, which includes the underworld, and abode of the dead, and place of exile and punishment. Change the word from GRAVE to these others and see nothing else in the verse limits it to grave, anyway.

These definitions are given by men who believe in "immortal soul" teaching. They are designed to verify a false doctrine. You have already seen and rejected the Biblical teaching of death.

Death is the loss of the sense of BEING.

You have to get the foundations in place first to understand death and resurrection. Thats why I presented the teachings of Job on IF A MAN DIE.
He knew the truth. Why do you think the book of Job is considered scripture? If he taught false he himself was false.

The Apostle James believed he was a righteos man and the Almighty himself appeared to him and preached the mightiest sermon of all time in his presence!

[Aquila]

It is my opinion that those who believe in soul sleep don't properly define man ontologically. Man is ontologically composed of three components:

• Body (Soma Gk.) - The material part of our being, the body.
• Soul (Psuche Gk.) - The word psyche is derived from this Greek word. It denotes our mind and emotions. It is the immaterial self aware part of our being.
• Spirit (Pneuma Gk.) - This word literally translates "breath" as in being our "breath of life". This is the animating force existent within our being.

(Think of hardware, software, and electricity.)

Man's body will age and die, be laid in the grave, and raised again for judgment or to be glorified. Therefore this aspect of our being sleeps.

Our soul will continue on "alive" and "self aware" entering into either Heaven or Hell.

Our spirit (or breath, i.e. life force) dissipates and returns to the God who gave it.

For those who are born again, our spirits were dead but are now one with the Holy Spirit. And so we never truly suffer death. We enter into God's presence alive according to His Spirit dwelling within.

So upon death we experience various realities given our ontological perspective. We sleep with regards to the body. We are in Heaven or Hell with regards to the soul. We return to the very being of God, the one who breathed life into us with regards to our spirit.

So do we sleep upon death? Yes.
Are we in Heaven or Hell upon death? Yes.
Do we cease to exist, our very breath returning to the God who gave it? Yes.

Unless these ontological distinctions are understood categorically with regards to our being one's eschatology regarding death will be incomplete.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

These definitions are given by men who believe in "immortal soul" teaching. They are designed to verify a false doctrine.

When a person starts changing the definitions of words, how can anyone discuss anything with them?

You have already seen and rejected the Biblical teaching of death.

No, I rejected your interpretation of what the passages were trying to relate.

Death is the loss of the sense of BEING.

No, death is the sense of loss of being IN THIS PRESENT WORLD as well as separation of soul from body, or soul from God.

You have to get the foundations in place first to understand death and resurrection. Thats why I presented the teachings of Job on IF A MAN DIE.
He knew the truth. Why do you think the book of Job is considered scripture? If he taught false he himself was false.

I never said anything Job said was false. Here you go again! Repeat what I say, please. I NEVER said Job was false. I said he only knew of resurrection. Also, I implied the only reason you have for saying GRAVE is the translation of SHEOL is the translator's choice, and not the actual context. And when I ask you why the other definitions are forbidden by you in this passage, you claim the dictionary was wrong in those instances.

When a Hebrew or Greek word offers more than one definition of a term, CONTEXT of the passage determines which option to use. I see NO CONTEXT saying anything about the thought being restricted to the grave. Yet, you reveal that your only recourse to stand on the grave is the choice of the term by the translators. This betrays your inability to actually provide a logical answer.

What about GRAVE being an incorrect definition also? If you start claiming definitions in lexicons are incorrect, where do you draw the line? It appears you draw the line with what you personally believe, which is a faulty basis anyway, since it is subjection and not objection whatsoever.

The Apostle James believed he was a righteos man and the Almighty himself appeared to him and preached the mightiest sermon of all time in his presence!

I agree. No one said Job was false. I just asked why GRAVE is your restricted definition when the lexicon provides much more,and you only responded with what is basically, "The other definitions are wrong because I disagree with them."

The reason HELL includes definitions about the abode of the dead is due to the contexts in which the term is found in the entire bible.... since Jesus would not use myths, the rich man and Lazarus story shows a place of conscious torment in hell. Since Jesus mentioned hell has fire as much as the lake of fire has fire, it is a place of suffering.

So, again, what is in the context of Job's words that show how SHEOL can only mean grave?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is my opinion that those who believe in soul sleep don't properly define man ontologically. Man is ontologically composed of three components:

• Body (Soma Gk.) - The material part of our being, the body.
• Soul (Psuche Gk.) - The word psyche is derived from this Greek word. It denotes our mind and emotions. It is the immaterial self aware part of our being.
• Spirit (Pneuma Gk.) - This word literally translates "breath" as in being our "breath of life". This is the animating force existent within our being.

Man's body will age and die, be laid in the grave, and raised again glorified. Therefore this aspect of our being sleeps.

Our soul will continue on "alive" and self aware into either Heaven or Hell.

Our spirit (or breath, i.e. life force) dissipates and returns to the God who gave it.

For those born again, our spirits are one with the Holy Spirit. And so we never truly suffer death. We enter into God's presence alive according to His Spirit dwelling within.

Right.

We are not getting answers in respect to these facts, and are not getting answers about CONTEXT in Job and alleged implied mythological inferences in Christ.

[NotforSale]

It just blows my mind how people think they know what happens to us after we take our last breath. There is so much speculation and confusion regarding this subject, and the fact remains, we don't know. None of us do. Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, No-Trib, Hell this, Hell that, Sleep, Torture, Annihilation, Age of Accountability, Death Bed Repentance; no wonder Christians are confused.

Before long, there is so much Spectral mudslinging over this, people don't know want to think. And what usually happens is people get angry, and out comes the "Fear Bag" of Hell.

Religion is polluted with Know-it-All’s who don't know anything, because they haven't been to places they say exist. To be honest, it's almost comical reading this Thread, mainly because of the lack of honesty; Admit it Folks, you don't know!! God won’t strike us down if we confess our ignorance about the Afterlife!! It’s a mystery, always has been, always will be!

Human weakness has always been about the things we can’t touch or see, and God surely isn’t going to take advantage of one of our greatest downfalls. He knows our imagination is a horrible expanse of exaggeration. The only ones who will take advantage of this Weakness are those in Religion!!

[mfblume]

NFS,

We can know. Consider you do not believe that much of the bible is true anyway. So why do you even frequent these forums? Some might consider that comical. But I disagree with you, there is enough in the bible about these issues that we can know. The problem is when people get traditional thoughts and refuse to break with them when confronted with scripture. But there is no need for mudslinging, I agree. I just wonder why folks spend time on things that practically have no value rather than issues of the victory of the cross and self denial, and leading of the Spirit.

[Michael The Disciple]

MB

I agree Job looked forward to resurrection. What has that got to do with sleeping, though?

Well look at the context.

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

Job says the grave will be HIS (not my bodies) house. He says he will make HIS (not his bodies) BED in the darkness. The metaphors are perfect. He will be in the darkness of the grave. That is where he will make his bed. What does one do ON A BED? A bed is for SLEEPING.

Job was saying his death would be like he was asleep. Jesus used the metaphor about Lazarus. The Bible is full of that terminology. So the answer as to what does Job waiting for the resurrection have to do with sleeping is very simple.

He is explaining the WAITING PERIOD between his death and his resurrection. Remember the first thing said is IF I WAIT. He said nothing about instant Heaven. Why? The Spirit never inspired him to do so. Rather it inspired him to say what he did say. We learn from what is taught not from what is not taught.