There are many scriptures, especially in the OT, which are troubling to me, some have been posted in the thread. The question is, how are they reconciled with a loving God? How could such atrocities be Godly in any way? Personally, I have to settle in my heart that the stories are accurate, when they write 'God said to kill, pillage, ect.', is that what God actually told them to do?
I've wrestled with this from several views over the years and finally settled on the view that they are accurate stories reflecting God's instructions, like it or not. What one must realize is that the culture and behavior of the time was one of killiing, pillaging, ect. and for a group to survive, those things were part of survival. The Israelites weren't unique in their survival actions, they weren't different than any of the other groups who were also in survival by destroying their enemies mode. It's interesting that few, if any, point out the behavior of any other group who conquered through violent warlike actions, but because it's our God who's involved in the survival of a group of people who are doing the same as other groups, the actions are rejected and condemned.
If I had lived during that time, knew the hatred and cruelty of my enemies, I believe I would have participated in the actions recorded in those stories of the Old Testament. My survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival would have depended on it. While our survival isn't dependent on such actions today, for the world has changed tremendously since that time, I still participate in the protection of my survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival in the manner of current society and will continue to do so to whatever actions and level I need to assure that enemies don't destroy us.
Societies have changed, the world has changed and we're many times judging these least favorite scriptures through concepts and ideas which aren't acceptable in our time but were necessary in aeons past.
Really? And then what do we do with "I am God, I change not"? I do not believe that this kind of behavior could have ever been acceptable to a loving, moral being.
I am much more inclined to believe that the Bible is corrupt. That it has been used to further an agenda and altered at the whim of man from time immemorial. Anyone who can not see the the hundreds and even thousands of discrepancies in our modern versions of 'the Bible' lives in denial, IMO. I am sure that that Israel's elite had an agenda that included wanting to be seen as fierce and supported by the most high God in their ferocity and so wrote their stories so slanted in some cases.
I see that God does not today keep anyone from corrupting His 'word' and I have no reason to believe that he did so in the past either. Where we ever got the idea that there is an 'incorruptible' book I am not sure. I would guess that it comes from the same place as nonexistent concepts like the immortal soul, man's imagination.
I believe that a lot of what Jesus Christ spent his time trying to tell us was that traditions, writings (even ancient dusty ones), leaderships opinions, etc. really don't matter in the same way that living this life fully engaged and loving and helping humanity does.
I have no problem admitting that I have never given stories like this more than a cursory glance. I find them repulsive and not a reflection of the God that I know and love intimately at all. I was grossed out and completely freaked by reading them here. Again ewwww....
Not trying to rock anyone's boat, just being honest...
And yet these type of things still go on in this world. The first family had a murderer in their midst. Instead of trying to do better, Cain murdered his brother.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Really? And then what do we do with "I am God, I change not"? I do not believe that this kind of behavior could have ever been acceptable to a loving, moral being.
I am much more inclined to believe that the Bible is corrupt. That it has been used to further an agenda and altered at the whim of man from time immemorial. Anyone who can not see the the hundreds and even thousands of discrepancies in our modern versions of 'the Bible' lives in denial, IMO. I am sure that that Israel's elite had an agenda that included wanting to be seen as fierce and supported by the most high God in their ferocity and so wrote their stories so slanted in some cases.
I see that God does not today keep anyone from corrupting His 'word' and I have no reason to believe that he did so in the past either. Where we ever got the idea that there is an 'incorruptible' book I am not sure. I would guess that it comes from the same place as nonexistent concepts like the immortal soul, man's imagination.
I believe that a lot of what Jesus Christ spent his time trying to tell us was that traditions, writings (even ancient dusty ones), leaderships opinions, etc. really don't matter in the same way that living this life fully engaged and loving and helping humanity does.
I have no problem admitting that I have never given stories like this more than a cursory glance. I find them repulsive and not a reflection of the God that I know and love intimately at all. I was grossed out and completely freaked by reading them here. Again ewwww....
Not trying to rock anyone's boat, just being honest...
We see God only dealing with a nation in the OT. When dealing with individuals, like the harlot in Jericho, or King David, we see a different side of God. We have to realize that God's morality isn't expressed in the law. Just as our morality isn't expressed in the United States civil codes of law. Law is only present to stabilize society and to protect life, liberty, and property. It says nothing of morality or spiritual things.
We truly only see God for the first time, as He desires to be known one on one, in Jesus Christ. The law was abolished... the nation judged. Now the door is open for all men to see the forgiving and gracious God who forgave David and saved the harolot in Jericho.
I want to revisit this statement:
Quote:
I do not believe that this kind of behavior could have ever been acceptable to a loving, moral being.
First, we'd have to properly define "loving" and "moral". For example, God allowed for multiple wives and concubines. Is it a moral thing to allow people to live privately as they choose, in relationships as they choose, as long as they are not harming or abusing one another? If so, God isn't immoral by allowing multiple wives and mistresses. However, is it moral to govern man's passions and restrict him to only having a single wife as seen in the NT?
I see two distinct kinds of morality expressed here. The OT expresses a civil and social morality. Yes, allow people to live as they choose (freedom) and govern them so as to prevent and/or punish abuse. Thus wives and concubines had certain rights protecting them and their children. That's socially moral. However, in the NT, we see a personal morality to espire to as individuals. Ah.... God is now dealing with us one on one.
So we see two distinct categories of morality expressed in Scripture. What is just for a nation and to preserve a stable society isn't always what is personally moral. Take freedom of the press or speech. Is it moral to allow people to publish things we find obsene? Yes, on a social level. However, on a personal moral level... we do well to stay away from those things.
There are many scriptures, especially in the OT, which are troubling to me, some have been posted in the thread. The question is, how are they reconciled with a loving God? How could such atrocities be Godly in any way? Personally, I have to settle in my heart that the stories are accurate, when they write 'God said to kill, pillage, ect.', is that what God actually told them to do?
I've wrestled with this from several views over the years and finally settled on the view that they are accurate stories reflecting God's instructions, like it or not. What one must realize is that the culture and behavior of the time was one of killiing, pillaging, ect. and for a group to survive, those things were part of survival. The Israelites weren't unique in their survival actions, they weren't different than any of the other groups who were also in survival by destroying their enemies mode. It's interesting that few, if any, point out the behavior of any other group who conquered through violent warlike actions, but because it's our God who's involved in the survival of a group of people who are doing the same as other groups, the actions are rejected and condemned.
If I had lived during that time, knew the hatred and cruelty of my enemies, I believe I would have participated in the actions recorded in those stories of the Old Testament. My survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival would have depended on it. While our survival isn't dependent on such actions today, for the world has changed tremendously since that time, I still participate in the protection of my survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival in the manner of current society and will continue to do so to whatever actions and level I need to assure that enemies don't destroy us.
Societies have changed, the world has changed and we're many times judging these least favorite scriptures through concepts and ideas which aren't acceptable in our time but were necessary in aeons past.
Which is more likely?
1. God ordered the carnage, and His chosen people obeyed. God couldn't or wouldn't choose a way to protect and lead His people that was significantly different from methods used by the barbaric nations they faced.
2. A people called themselves "God's chosen", used the methods common to that time and place, and attributed the carnage to God's orders. Perhaps others did, too, but the winners got to write the Book.
Did you know that some Christian sects reject the OT? Some go so far as to say the God of the OT is a different God than in the NT.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I think it's important to remind people that the Bible isn't just the "Word of God"; its also a book of records and history. An event being recording in the Bible isn't equivalent to God's endorsement of whatever took place in the story.
And when it is recorded that God ordered, say, the slaughter of every man, woman, and child (except the young girls, who were taken as spoils of war), do you take that as true? Did God really give that order, or did someone (Moses, in the case of Num 31) make it up, as an excuse to commit atrocities?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
And when it is recorded that God ordered, say, the slaughter of every man, woman, and child (except the young girls, who were taken as spoils of war), do you take that as true? Did God really give that order, or did someone (Moses, in the case of Num 31) make it up, as an excuse to commit atrocities?
Remember, those nations were enemies of the creator. They had rejected Him and decended into paganism and debauchery.
Remember, those nations were enemies of the creator. They had rejected Him and decended into paganism and debauchery.
That was how the story was recorded by the victors, yes, and I never said otherwise. Could God not be expected to provide protection for His people any other way than to fight fire with fire, so to speak?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
And when it is recorded that God ordered, say, the slaughter of every man, woman, and child (except the young girls, who were taken as spoils of war), do you take that as true? Did God really give that order, or did someone (Moses, in the case of Num 31) make it up, as an excuse to commit atrocities?
There's a different dynamic when it is a justifiable recompense, albeit an extreme response IMO, than when we're talking about the recording of a woman being unjustly abused and murdered.
There are obviously multiple accounts in scripture where God imposed violent consequences for what He viewed as effrontery or disobedience. However, I don't find examples of those instances when it wasn't justifiable from God's perspective of the absolute. Eye for an eye seems to be God's OT motif; Divine approval of a cowardly man handing his concubine over to abusers to save his own skin and then cutting her into pieces to express his outrage over her abuse--not so much His thing.
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
That was how the story was recorded by the victors, yes, and I never said otherwise. Could God not be expected to provide protection for His people any other way than to fight fire with fire, so to speak?
Timmy... don't you know the Bible? This is a dumb question. You're wrongfully accusing God. I'll share my perspective...
When God led Israel out of Egypt He protected them supernaturally. When Israel entered the promised land He protected them and subdued their enemies before them supernaturally. It wasn't until after they became a nation that something changed... the people wanted a human king. God warned them through the prophet that a human king would tax them and send their sons and daughters into war. They wanted a king anyway. As soon as they got a human king we see Israel increasingly leaning on their own military might and prowess. We also see them drift from God and sink into the mire of sin and idolatry. As they departed from trusting God... God's hand began to withdraw from them. Soon... military might was all Israel was left to depend on. God promised to fight their battles and protect them... IF THEY RETURNED TO HIM AND TRUSTED HIM. But they refused. The prophets repeatedly rebuke them for this. The prophets also rebuke them for not doing what God said was necessary while trusting in their military might. It was all bad all around because Israel wanted to be a nation like every other nation... but with God's assistance. God tolerated this non-sense until He began sending foreign powers to dominate them and bring them to their knees in repentance. In the NT we see that God sent the Messiah and as a last act of defiance against God's rulership... they murdered Him upon a cross. God then swiftly judged the nation, destroying it through the Romans in AD 70.
The stories of the OT are not easily understood by people who don't understand the over all theme of the Bible. Much of the war and bloodshed seen in the Bible is the result of Israel not trusting God and rebelling against Him as their King. God tolerated their choice, tried to help them, and even gave them instructions on what to do on several occasions, each occasion proving that they were NOT in the will of God.
You're wrongfully accusing God Timmy. And why would victors write a holy book that only accentuates their spiritual failure as they grew in power through military conquest? Why would victors write about how their own God brought the world's greatest powers against them to bring them to repentance because of their own evil???
This entire premise is ignorant baloney. The OT accentuates what SHOULDN'T happen. Not what God wants to happen. It's a tragic story. Not a story of victory and glory. A tragic story of a stiff necked, rebellions, pride driven, nation that wanted God's blessings... but not His guidance. A nation worthy of judgment. An example to us... of what NOT to become.
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