22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down [at] the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
I talked to a lady one time who was raised in India, and married an American and moved over to America. She tried to convert to Christianity, she was telling me. But then she said she began to read the Bible, and such terrible things in it that she couldn't stand to read it any more. She mentioned this story in the Bible. She told me she would rather not believe in a God that would allow this kind of stuff.... I talked to her for a long while trying to convince her otherwise, but this story really did her in, and she wanted not much more to do with the Bible... at that point anyway.... I pray that someday she will be able to see that there is more to the Bible than that story!
I talked to a lady one time who was raised in India, and married an American and moved over to America. She tried to convert to Christianity, she was telling me. But then she said she began to read the Bible, and such terrible things in it that she couldn't stand to read it any more. She mentioned this story in the Bible. She told me she would rather not believe in a God that would allow this kind of stuff.... I talked to her for a long while trying to convince her otherwise, but this story really did her in, and she wanted not much more to do with the Bible... at that point anyway.... I pray that someday she will be able to see that there is more to the Bible than that story!
I have a dear friend who is an atheist. She is very educated with a Ph.D. in psychology and a M.S. in Biology. She works in neuroscience. She says the same thing about the Bible. She has read it and finds it horrifying and has said that if that is God she never, ever, ever wants to meet him.
Still for years she has kept our dialog open about spiritual things, so I have hope. I recently sent her a copy of a Bible study I was doing and she sent me bake a website called evil bible dot com (warning it is full of profanity). It has been interesting to read what atheists think about something that I consider the core of my being and where I first learned about a lot of scriptures that are never taught in church.... but some of these scriptures you guys are quoting are REALLY freaking me out even more than the website... ewwww....
Last edited by Titus2woman; 03-12-2012 at 08:39 PM.
22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down [at] the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
I talked to a lady one time who was raised in India, and married an American and moved over to America. She tried to convert to Christianity, she was telling me. But then she said she began to read the Bible, and such terrible things in it that she couldn't stand to read it any more. She mentioned this story in the Bible. She told me she would rather not believe in a God that would allow this kind of stuff.... I talked to her for a long while trying to convince her otherwise, but this story really did her in, and she wanted not much more to do with the Bible... at that point anyway.... I pray that someday she will be able to see that there is more to the Bible than that story!
What a horrific story.
I think it's important to remind people that the Bible isn't just the "Word of God"; its also a book of records and history. An event being recording in the Bible isn't equivalent to God's endorsement of whatever took place in the story.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the LORD,” they say,
“let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
__________________ As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died.- Gal. 6:14
There are many scriptures, especially in the OT, which are troubling to me, some have been posted in the thread. The question is, how are they reconciled with a loving God? How could such atrocities be Godly in any way? Personally, I have to settle in my heart that the stories are accurate, when they write 'God said to kill, pillage, ect.', is that what God actually told them to do?
I've wrestled with this from several views over the years and finally settled on the view that they are accurate stories reflecting God's instructions, like it or not. What one must realize is that the culture and behavior of the time was one of killiing, pillaging, ect. and for a group to survive, those things were part of survival. The Israelites weren't unique in their survival actions, they weren't different than any of the other groups who were also in survival by destroying their enemies mode. It's interesting that few, if any, point out the behavior of any other group who conquered through violent warlike actions, but because it's our God who's involved in the survival of a group of people who are doing the same as other groups, the actions are rejected and condemned.
If I had lived during that time, knew the hatred and cruelty of my enemies, I believe I would have participated in the actions recorded in those stories of the Old Testament. My survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival would have depended on it. While our survival isn't dependent on such actions today, for the world has changed tremendously since that time, I still participate in the protection of my survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival in the manner of current society and will continue to do so to whatever actions and level I need to assure that enemies don't destroy us.
Societies have changed, the world has changed and we're many times judging these least favorite scriptures through concepts and ideas which aren't acceptable in our time but were necessary in aeons past.
I think it's important to remind people that the Bible isn't just the "Word of God"; its also a book of records and history. An event being recording in the Bible isn't equivalent to God's endorsement of whatever took place in the story.
True. However, this is a perscribed trial by ordeal for a woman who is suspected of infidelity.
I think it's important to remind people that the Bible isn't just the "Word of God"; its also a book of records and history. An event being recording in the Bible isn't equivalent to God's endorsement of whatever took place in the story.
Contrary to what you are saying, I am finding that the stories recalled here are recorded as being sanctioned by God. Just the fact that these stories were preserved for posterity is disturbing... And I think that many/most Christians have absolutely no idea what is those never discussed/never taught pages and would have no idea how to reconcile them with this loving God we present today.
I mean I am willing to admit right here that I certainly don't. Horrible, just horrible
There are many scriptures, especially in the OT, which are troubling to me, some have been posted in the thread. The question is, how are they reconciled with a loving God? How could such atrocities be Godly in any way? Personally, I have to settle in my heart that the stories are accurate, when they write 'God said to kill, pillage, ect.', is that what God actually told them to do?
I've wrestled with this from several views over the years and finally settled on the view that they are accurate stories reflecting God's instructions, like it or not. What one must realize is that the culture and behavior of the time was one of killiing, pillaging, ect. and for a group to survive, those things were part of survival. The Israelites weren't unique in their survival actions, they weren't different than any of the other groups who were also in survival by destroying their enemies mode. It's interesting that few, if any, point out the behavior of any other group who conquered through violent warlike actions, but because it's our God who's involved in the survival of a group of people who are doing the same as other groups, the actions are rejected and condemned.
If I had lived during that time, knew the hatred and cruelty of my enemies, I believe I would have participated in the actions recorded in those stories of the Old Testament. My survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival would have depended on it. While our survival isn't dependent on such actions today, for the world has changed tremendously since that time, I still participate in the protection of my survival, my family's survival and my nation's survival in the manner of current society and will continue to do so to whatever actions and level I need to assure that enemies don't destroy us.
Societies have changed, the world has changed and we're many times judging these least favorite scriptures through concepts and ideas which aren't acceptable in our time but were necessary in aeons past.
I agree with a lot of your post. In a way, we're judging what had to be done in ancient times through the lense of Christ and Christian love and grace. Yes, it looks terrible on this side of Grace. But God chose to preserve a nation that would preserve His word and bring forth Messiah. That often required desperate measures. God knew it wouldn't last. He knew He would reveal Himself in Christ Jesus and bring a better covenant.
I praise God that I live on this side of the cross.
Contrary to what you are saying, I am finding that the stories recalled here are recorded as being sanctioned by God. Just the fact that these stories were preserved for posterity is disturbing... And I think that many/most Christians have absolutely no idea what is those never discussed/never taught pages and would have no idea how to reconcile them with this loving God we present today.
I mean I am willing to admit right here that I certainly don't. Horrible, just horrible
A lot of this is "caselaw". It's just the legal code of an ancient society. It's not designed to be uniquely spiritual, though spiritual truths can be gleaned from some principles in the law. Imagine if someone read our civil code involving the electric chair about 2000 years from now. The stipublations of conviction, chair design, required contraints, voltage, required damage to the body needed to bring death, etc. It would sound VERY barbaric to them no doubt. But it's legal code.
A lot of what we're reading here is the legal code of an ancient nation. God took a race of slaves and gave them a law by which to govern themselves in the world they lived in. The law, as a whole, wasn't designed to make one righteous.
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