Something interesting about gays.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Now... I'm going to ask a few questions and I want to state up front that I'm not trying to be smart alec and I'm not trying to make light of your position.

What you have stated here reminds me a lot of the "if they had a choice why would they choose this lifestyle with all of the rejection they get from society" argument. When I hear this thought put forward questions begin to roll through my mind...

If the statement in quotes above has any validity then wouldn't the same remain true for child molesters & serial adulterers? Why would they choose a life that is so looked down on society and so ridiculed if they had a choice? That seems far fetched but that is the clear end for this reasoning.

I see the same with what you have stated here. What if there were a man in your life who loves God, and would love nothing else but to be "normal" so he would fit in and yet he had a problem with child molestation? Should our compassion for child molesters increase?

What if you had a friend who just cannot stop cheating on his wife? He continually sleeps with other women but he loves God, and would love nothing else but to be "normal" so he would fit in? Should we see adulterers in a new and compassionate light?

There are clearly people who have these problems. And, beyond their deviant activities, I would imagine that some of them are good people and probably some of them attend church.

The scripture that comes to my mind is this... The heart is deceitful above all things...

I pray that you consider what I have presented here.

We are not to hate the sinner etc. But I don't think we are to come to a place where we accept a premise that says God made us this way. If we do that then when the premise runs it's course we will find ourselves having compassion for the child molester or the adulterer or the rapist because that is where this reasoning finally leads.

We are not to hate the sinner etc. But I don't think we are to come to a place where we accept a premise that says God made us this way. If we do that then when the premise runs it's course we will find ourselves having compassion for the child molester or the adulterer or the rapist because that is where this reasoning finally leads.

I understand what you’re saying, and was going to post something similar. First of all I believe that sin, all sin comes from the Devil, and that he is continually placing temptations on us to do those things which are against the spirit, that which is against God. And sin is us committing or consenting within our hearts or with our deeds, to allow those things that we are tempted with to consume us.
When we are tempted to lie, to murder to commit adultery, to fornicate…yes I do believe that these are in the same vein as the spirits of child molestation, murdering, and even gays. No I don’t believe God made gays that way, nor do I believe that all of those who are gay, chose their lifestyles. Not everyone is tempted with exactly the same thing, and you don’t choose what you are tempted with. The devil don’t put the exact same temptation on every single last person, he’s to cunning for that, if he did, then everyone would probably know what sin is, and where it’s coming from, and would be better equipped to resist and fight it.

I view gays almost in the same way as I few someone who is wrathful. It’s like someone who was always angry, always quick to wrath even from their youth, to the point that even when that person grows up, as far as long as everyone knew them, they were like that, and everyone who knows them, will say that that’s just how that person is, and acting as if that person was born that way. The same way as if someone had a quick tongue, or always deceitful. People who know them and the person that has these sins, will just think that that is how they were born, because as long as they lived they were like this way.

My problem with those who are against gays, is that it seems that people just have a hatred for them, ( not their sin) as if their sin is worse then your own. And will make up all kinds of excuses why they can’t stop sinning, and then jump on the gays for their sins, and expect them to stop sinning.

You don’t have compassion for them, in the since that you accept their sin as if it’s alright, but you should know how to act towards them, to help them turn away from it. Through the help of our Lord, gays (and everyone else) can stop sinning, and fight and turn away from the temptations that the devil places on you.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by houston

Why are you quoting me? I didn't state that sin is a gift from God.

I quoted you, but I should have posted two responses.

My "slippery slope" comment is directed at your question.

Homosexuals, bi-sexuals, tri-sexuals, sadomasochists, etc who believe they are born that way could then go down the road of thinking that since they were born "whatever", God created them to be whatever and that their whatever-ness is something to be embraced because this is the way God created them.

However, this logic disregards the Biblical truth that we are ALL born into sin, all born sinners, naturally inclined to live a life that will naturally lead us all to an eternity forever separated from our Creator and Savior.

I personally don't have a problem with believing that a person can be born sinful, predisposed to any sin to include homosexuality. However, I also know that it is human nature to question and to want to know why.

It is easy for the natural, human inclination to want to know why to lead humans down the path of deception.


Brother, I love you and I know that the love of Christ abides in you.
I appreciate your thoughts and prayers for me.
You are in my prayers.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

We are not to hate the sinner etc. But I don't think we are to come to a place where we accept a premise that says God made us this way. If we do that then when the premise runs it's course we will find ourselves having compassion for the child molester or the adulterer or the rapist because that is where this reasoning finally leads.

I understand what you’re saying, and was going to post something similar. First of all I believe that sin, all sin comes from the Devil, and that he is continually placing temptations on us to do those things which are against the spirit, that which is against God. And sin is us committing or consenting within our hearts or with our deeds, to allow those things that we are tempted with to consume us.
When we are tempted to lie, to murder to commit adultery, to fornicate…yes I do believe that these are in the same vein as the spirits of child molestation, murdering, and even gays. No I don’t believe God made gays that way, nor do I believe that all of those who are gay, chose their lifestyles. Not everyone is tempted with exactly the same thing, and you don’t choose what you are tempted with. The devil don’t put the exact same temptation on every single last person, he’s to cunning for that, if he did, then everyone would probably know what sin is, and where it’s coming from, and would be better equipped to resist and fight it.

I view gays almost in the same way as I few someone who is wrathful. It’s like someone who was always angry, always quick to wrath even from their youth, to the point that even when that person grows up, as far as long as everyone knew them, they were like that, and everyone who knows them, will say that that’s just how that person is, and acting as if that person was born that way. The same way as if someone had a quick tongue, or always deceitful. People who know them and the person that has these sins, will just think that that is how they were born, because as long as they lived they were like this way.

My problem with those who are against gays, is that it seems that people just have a hatred for them, ( not their sin) as if their sin is worse then your own. And will make up all kinds of excuses why they can’t stop sinning, and then jump on the gays for their sins, and expect them to stop sinning.

You don’t have compassion for them, in the since that you accept their sin as if it’s alright, but you should know how to act towards them, to help them turn away from it. Through the help of our Lord, gays (and everyone else) can stop sinning, and fight and turn away from the temptations that the devil places on you.

Agreed.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Now... I'm going to ask a few questions and I want to state up front that I'm not trying to be smart alec and I'm not trying to make light of your position.

What you have stated here reminds me a lot of the "if they had a choice why would they choose this lifestyle with all of the rejection they get from society" argument. When I hear this thought put forward questions begin to roll through my mind...

If the statement in quotes above has any validity then wouldn't the same remain true for child molesters & serial adulterers? Why would they choose a life that is so looked down on society and so ridiculed if they had a choice? That seems far fetched but that is the clear end for this reasoning.

I see the same with what you have stated here. What if there were a man in your life who loves God, and would love nothing else but to be "normal" so he would fit in and yet he had a problem with child molestation? Should our compassion for child molesters increase?

What if you had a friend who just cannot stop cheating on his wife? He continually sleeps with other women but he loves God, and would love nothing else but to be "normal" so he would fit in? Should we see adulterers in a new and compassionate light?

There are clearly people who have these problems. And, beyond their deviant activities, I would imagine that some of them are good people and probably some of them attend church.

The scripture that comes to my mind is this... The heart is deceitful above all things...

I pray that you consider what I have presented here.

We are not to hate the sinner etc. But I don't think we are to come to a place where we accept a premise that says God made us this way. If we do that then when the premise runs it's course we will find ourselves having compassion for the child molester or the adulterer or the rapist because that is where this reasoning finally leads.

Good honest questions!

As stated, I believe all humans are born asexual. At some time in their adolescence, each makes a subconscious lean one way or another. It can't be influenced, otherwise how could a gay couple raise a child turns out straight?

You compare gays to child molesters and serial adulterers. BTW, I believe one makes a conscious choice to molest a child! It's a deviant activity that destroys lives. This choice is made outside of sexual orientation. I believe molestation begins with pornography, and then leads to child pornography before any assertive action is taken. Therefore, I believe the catalyst for child molestation is pornography.

I also believe the catalyst for the serial adulterer is porn. One gets "turned on" with the idea of different sexual partners, and then makes a choice to act on their fantasies. Of course, this can destroy families.

I believe it is porn that plants the seed of sin and unrighteousness. When does it become sin? I struggle with this. The bible does say if a man looks at another woman and imagines things in his mind, he has already committed adultery in his heart. We have ALL sinned with evil thoughts that go through our minds. We have to bring our thoughts into godly captivity.

So, are ANY thoughts or propensity to deviant sexual activity outside of marriage sin? Absolutely! When our thoughts become actions, we begin LIVING in sin. I don't see where sins are weighted in scripture. Sin is sin!

I believe there are many men out there that have a homosexual leaning, but are living a normal married life raising children. They have chosen to put their thoughts into spiritual captivity. As you know, some get weak and finally give in to their sexual orientation. Are these men any worse than the man who gets weak and has affairs on his wife? I believe they are one and the same!

[Digging4Truth]

There's a lot to comment on but I will keep my comments to the quote below.

Originally Posted by StillStanding

As stated, I believe all humans are born asexual. At some time in their adolescence, each makes a subconscious lean one way or another. It can't be influenced, otherwise how could a gay couple raise a child turns out straight?

First... I am glad that we agree that sin is sin. I also believe that adultery and homosexuality are both simply... sin.


But... I have to wonder why you feel that an adulterer is likely influenced by outside factors... a child molester is influenced by outside factors... but a homosexual cannot be influenced by outside factors?

Also... on the statement "otherwise how could a gay couple raise a child that turns out straight"?

The same way a straight couple raises a child that comes out gay I would say. We influence our children as parents but we aren't the only influences. And... beyond that...

Straight couples sometimes have a child that pursues homosexuality.

Homosexual couples sometimes have a child that pursues heterosexuality.

Pentecostal couples sometimes have a child that pursues satanism or atheism or other forms of christianity.

Parental beliefs, standards, values, sexual orientation are never, in any case, an assurance that their children will not deviate from that.

By the line of thinking that is being presented we are looking at the possibility that people are born athiests... people are born baptists... people are born wife beaters or any number of ways.

This, in the end, does away with all personal responsibility and pretty much makes us all "born" with our sins of choice.

The closest I can come to accepting this premise at this point in the conversation is that we are ALL born in sin and shapen in iniquity. But that is the purpose of the Holy Ghost and salvation isn't it?

Once again... please take my thoughts in a spirit of good, respectful and open discussion. I appreciate your patience with me.

[J4Truth]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Now... I'm going to ask a few questions and I want to state up front that I'm not trying to be smart alec and I'm not trying to make light of your position.

What you have stated here reminds me a lot of the "if they had a choice why would they choose this lifestyle with all of the rejection they get from society" argument. When I hear this thought put forward questions begin to roll through my mind...

If the statement in quotes above has any validity then wouldn't the same remain true for child molesters & serial adulterers? Why would they choose a life that is so looked down on society and so ridiculed if they had a choice? That seems far fetched but that is the clear end for this reasoning.

I see the same with what you have stated here. What if there were a man in your life who loves God, and would love nothing else but to be "normal" so he would fit in and yet he had a problem with child molestation? Should our compassion for child molesters increase?

What if you had a friend who just cannot stop cheating on his wife? He continually sleeps with other women but he loves God, and would love nothing else but to be "normal" so he would fit in? Should we see adulterers in a new and compassionate light?

There are clearly people who have these problems. And, beyond their deviant activities, I would imagine that some of them are good people and probably some of them attend church.

The scripture that comes to my mind is this... The heart is deceitful above all things...

I pray that you consider what I have presented here.

We are not to hate the sinner etc. But I don't think we are to come to a place where we accept a premise that says God made us this way. If we do that then when the premise runs it's course we will find ourselves having compassion for the child molester or the adulterer or the rapist because that is where this reasoning finally leads.

I understand where you're coming from. But where I see the disconnect sometimes between the argument "choose to be this way" is in regards to the temptation to sin vs the actual deed of giving in to said temptation which is sin.

When someone say they didn't choose this and if they could be "normal" they would, they are saying they didn't choose to be tempted in this way. They are not (in most cases) referring to their deeds (because as with most people we know we choose what we do) but they are referring to their desires, attractions, temptations, etc.

People are tempted with a variety of sins and not everyone is tempted with the same temptations. And people associate their temptations with who they are, which, I feel, is the devils way of trying to make people accept the temptation and sin more readily if you associate the sin with yourself.

[Aquila]

I’d like to weigh in on this topic. Here’s my opinion….

There are three aspects to man’s being:

Body (Soma) – The physical and biological part of man’s being.
Soul (Psuche/Psyche) – The mental/emotional aspect of a man’s being.
Spirit (Pneuma) – The very “life force” or “living energy” that animates a man’s being. The ancients saw this as something akin to living “breath”.

Originally, man’s “spirit” was in union with God’s Spirit. The very life of God flowed from God through man; sustaining health, vitality, and immortality. However, when man sinned that union was severed. Being severed from the source of all healing, perfection, and life, man became subject to spiritual error, demon possession, mental and emotional problems,….and yes… genetic biological defects, aging, disease, chemical imbalances, and deformities. Man’s ENTIRE being became subject to the effect of this separation that sinned caused. This causes man to “miss the mark” with regards to his spirituality, thinking, and even biological urges without divine intervention. This is better known theologically as… man’s now "fallen" or "sinful nature". As a whole… this is can be called “the flesh”. In addition, one can be speaking purely of the biological aspects of man's nature. This too can be called "the flesh". Thus, the flesh has a fallen nature.

This means that some sins are rooted in the spirit: Idolatry, demonism, occult practices and powers, etc. Some sins are rooted in the soul/psyche: anger, pride, hatred, envy, strife, covetousness, etc. Some sins are rooted in the body (flesh): lust, gluttony, sloth, rage, etc. While the soul/psychology of a man is affected by the past experiences of a person… the flesh is subject to genetic conditions, chemical balances/imbalances, and hormones.

As spiritual people… we often focus on problems as they relate to the spirit and sometimes the soul. However, we often ignore the reality that THE FLESH is indeed every bit as fallen as a man’s spirit and soul. This flesh WANTS, DESIRES, and even CRAVES things that are opposed to God’s will WITHOUT our choosing or will. I'll illustrate this. For many (if not most) men… a woman walks by and her form activates areas of the brain that lock onto her and immediately draws from past experiences of pleasure. If she passes close by, her perfume or pheromones can immediately begin an involuntary biological reaction that brings dilation of pupils, increased heart rate, raised blood pressure, the release of dopamine and endorphins that bring a sense of peace and pleasure, and even in some cases increased blood flow to the sex organs. The entire body is affected to a lesser or greater degree. As a man’s body (or even a woman’s body with regards to a man) goes through these changes, the soul/mind/psyche of a person assesses the “potential” ability to mate. This is known as “chemistry”. It is the science behind attraction. From the earliest ages males respond to female shapes and pheromones. From the earliest ages females respond to the male form and pheromones. The brain even seeks to find symetry in facial features and body structure that indicate "health" in a potential mate. This symetry is called "beauty" or "attractiveness" by most. If one's facial features and body structure lacks symetry with itself, and other specimens they are deemed "ugly" or "unattractive". This is by design. We are designed biologically to seek "healthy mates".

However… as science investigates sexual orientation they are beginning to realize that for some people the science of attraction works a bit differently. They respond to the shapes and pheromones of the same gender from the early ages. They rarely report “choosing” to be attracted to the same gender. As with boys or girls who discover their increased desire and attraction to the opposite gender… these individuals discover increased desire and attraction to the same gender…often to their own disliking. They WANT to be normal. But the opposite gender doesn’t “do it” for them. Many teens experiencing this have sunk into deep depression, drugs, and self-destructive behaviors. Some have even chosen suicide over living with this same gender orientation. In short… they HATE themselves.

Scientists are studying genetics and hormonal levels during development to determine if they can nail down what biological aspects to this might exist. Twins are a very interesting study. They have a significantly higher chance of both having homosexual orientation than other siblings… even if separated at birth, or an early age, and living in different environments. Various differences in brain chemistry and function have been noted. In addition in blind tests, those affected by same gender attraction involuntarily respond on a biological level to same gender pheromones. There are biological aspects to this.

Essentially, this condition is the sum total of a person’s entire person being twisted by sin. While the spiritual and psychological aspects to this sinful condition have been commented on extensively… few have considered the physical aspect of man’s fallen being and how it too might play a part. Some are even violently opposed to the very possibility. Yet, anyone who has ever lived with a woman can testify that hormonal levels deeply affect behavior and thought patterns. Many live with serious imbalances in the brain that deeply affect behavior AGAINST a person’s choice or will. We glorify and even nearly worship the notion of free will. We do this to a very dangerous and unbiblical extreme. It's as though we WANT to believe that we are in total control of ourselves. It gives us a sense of peace assuming that we can do anything we wish. But the truth is... we're subject to struggling with our sinful nature and will be until we are glorified. Many Christian churches are only now starting to become friendly towards the notion of treating chemical imbalances and other biological problems that affect behavior through various treatments. We’re far behind the curve.

I think the problem is that some THINK that if we acknowledge that there might be a biological component to this problem we’re testifying that people are “born gay” or that “God made people gay”. Not so. People are born FALLEN. Twisted up in their spirits, developing problems with their souls, and yes… even experiencing the effects of being fallen in their flesh (biology). God didn't "make" anyone gay any more than God made anyone a conjoined twin or hermaphidite. This is part of the fallen condition.

This is where a deeper understanding of soteriology must be gained. When one is born again… the spirit of a man is united with God once more. However, the soul/mind of a man must be renewed daily through prayer, sound teaching, meditation, and study of the Word. The flesh and it’s desires must be mastered. And that implies that the sinful desires and tendencies of the flesh DON’T go away once one is “saved”. They must master their flesh and overcome its desires. This means… some might wrestle with same gender attraction at some level all their lives. Just like straight people might wrestle with being attracted to the opposite gender or hightened libido all of their lives. Thus compassion, understanding, and patience are necessary.

Can a person be set free from homosexual orientation? So far… psychology has failed to change the vast majority of homosexuals. In some cases, it’s traumatized them and left them in a deeper state of denial, hiding, or sense of failure. Spiritual teaching and disciplines have helped many homosexuals “cope” and “subsist” within the faith community as celibates. However, their inclination or orientation often remains as a thorn in their flesh. I believe that to be entirely “set free” from this a person needs a touch from God that affects their entire being… body, soul, and spirit. God can heal the biological problems that science is only now beginning to discover. God can heal psychological and emotional problems relating to this condition. And… God can restore and heal the spirituality of those who struggle with this. I believe that without a miraculous touch that affects the entirety of a person’s being… a person might struggle with this their entire lives.

I do not believe that the condition itself rules out salvation. However, continued behavior that acts on urges and desires of this nature can fill one with enough guilt and shame to open a door for Satan to discourage a continued walk with Christ. In addition, it can open one up to demonic forces to infect and take control, driving a person deeper and deeper into sinful behaviors and farther and farther from God. Since sexuality is so intrinsic to our being, this sin is of a very serious nature.

In my opinion, the greatest obstacle with regards to properly dealing with this condition with truth, love, and compassion is the irrational “hatred” and "suspecion" that many have towards those struggling with, or living in, this sinful condition. We have to come to the realization that we’re all born broken and are in desperate need of a healing deliverer.

We're all born broken. We can either throw stones as the most sick and broken among us... or we can rest in the fact that there is a doctor in the house and encourage patience and healing through a spirit of love and respect.

That’s my opinion on the subject.

[Aquila]

For those who believe it is a "choice", the implication is that they too could "choose" to be gay. My concern is does this mean that they are in truth "bisexual"??? How else could they possibly conceive of being able to "choose" one or the other? Personally, I (a straight male) never chose to like women. I've liked women as far back as I can remember. Also, I cannot conceive of living a homosexual lifestyle. That would be impossible for me. So, I don't relate to the notion that it is entirely a "choice" because it wasn't for me. But those are just my initial thoughts on the idea that it is entirely a choice.

[MissBrattified]

Everyone is born with the propensity for sin; everyone is born with innate weaknesses and even the inclination for certain sins.

Being born *into* sin doesn't validate later sinful choices. Human beings are born with all sorts of sinful weakness; having to fight those weaknesses in accordance with God's laws is part of the human struggle.

It doesn't matter if you ascribe to the "I was born with it" or "I chose it later" theory; homosexuality is still a sin.

To the point of the original post, a previous poster (Coonskinner) said one of the most insightful things, IMO. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that homosexuality is the ultimate worship of self--because instead of being attracted to one's opposite, complimentary gender, homosexuals are attracted to their own image. Homosexuality is rooted in narcissism.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Everyone is born with the propensity for sin; everyone is born with innate weaknesses and even the inclination for certain sins.

Being born *into* sin doesn't validate later sinful choices. Human beings are born with all sorts of sinful weakness; having to fight those weaknesses in accordance with God's laws is part of the human struggle.

It doesn't matter if you ascribe to the "I was born with it" or "I chose it later" theory; homosexuality is still a sin.

To the point of the original post, a previous poster (Coonskinner) said one of the most insightful things, IMO. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that homosexuality is the ultimate worship of self--because instead of being attracted to one's opposite, complimentary gender, homosexuals are attracted to their own image. Homosexuality is rooted in narcissism.

I don't agree that this is a universal staement.
There are homosexuals who are not narcissistic, but are hurting, confused.