Who Is The Holy Spirit?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

It's a simple reference to the resurrection. It does not say "first created being".

The firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of all creation are two different things.

He was the only begotten of His Father and God.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of all creation are two different things.

He was the only begotten of His Father and God.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

To me, this means,----and I am willing to be shown different if I'm wrong.

Jesus was the First human being since Adam, to be born full of the Holy Ghost. And our human minds have no way of knowing, what it means that the Holy Ghost, (The Spirit of God) was His Father. (John the Baptist, received the same type of Holy Ghost that the OT Saints Prophets received. It moved on them, as they were prophesying)

I believe that Jesus came for the express purpose (even though He affected other things) to send the Holy Ghost down, in order that a soul (anyone that believes, and receives) could be born again.

He was the first, to rise from the dead, by the power of the Holy Ghost, just as He promised that those that have received the Holy Ghost, will rise at His appearing. But He was the first human, even though He was God. And sits on the Throne as a resurrected human.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of all creation are two different things.

He was the only begotten of His Father and God.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Me and you have already went back and forth over this passage in the past on a different thread but all i will point out is that you are pulling out one phrase all the while leaving out the rest of the passage. If Jesus is simply a created being and not God and then none of us exist because as the passage clearly states All thing were made by Him so how could he be made if He made all things and if He was the one who made all things how could He have been made?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of all creation are two different things.

He was the only begotten of His Father and God.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

He is firstborn OVER creation

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

28 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: "The 'firstborn' was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in [LXX] Psa_88:28 LXX (=Psa_89:27 EVV), 'I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,' indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth." In Col_1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus' rank as over and above creation (cf. Col_1:16 and the "for" clause referring to Jesus as Creator).

29 tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pasēs ktiseōs) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as "over all creation." See ExSyn 103-4.

NET bible commentary

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Luke

Me and you have already went back and forth over this passage in the past on a different thread but all i will point out is that you are pulling out one phrase all the while leaving out the rest of the passage. If Jesus is simply a created being and not God and then none of us exist because as the passage clearly states All thing were made by Him so how could he be made if He made all things and if He was the one who made all things how could He have been made?

Yes, we've had interesting and productive discussions about this. And no, I'm not just pulling out one phrase, that's the reason I posted the verses subsequent to verse 15, they're essential to understand the passage. You bring up interesting, and important, questions. The same questions I've asked myself in my studies of the passage.

In a short answer, His God and Father created all things through Him after His creation. This would agree with scripture that He was the firstborn, not God the Father being the firstborn, but the Son of God the Father being the firstborn. Otherwise you have God the Father being born, not existing before His birth.

This image (likeness, resemblance) of God is the Son of God through whom God created His creation, and this image (likeness, resemblance) was incarnate and suffered death. It wasn't God the Father who suffered death, nor was God the Father the firstborn of the dead, His Son (likeness, resemblance) did satisfy those things though.

If the phrase "created all things" is applied strictly to God the Father then all the passage must be applied to God the Father. Using this approach, verse 15 is speaking of God the Father being the image of the invisible God the Father, which presents many many problems in the exegesis of the passage.

If it's your contention that verse 15 is speaking of God the Father we could begin there and discuss the entirety of the passage using that view and see if that works scripture by scripture.

[Praxeas]

"Firstborn" does not mean "First one created".

[Luke]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yes, we've had interesting and productive discussions about this. And no, I'm not just pulling out one phrase, that's the reason I posted the verses subsequent to verse 15, they're essential to understand the passage. You bring up interesting, and important, questions. The same questions I've asked myself in my studies of the passage.

In a short answer, His God and Father created all things through Him after His creation. This would agree with scripture that He was the firstborn, not God the Father being the firstborn, but the Son of God the Father being the firstborn. Otherwise you have God the Father being born, not existing before His birth.

This image (likeness, resemblance) of God is the Son of God through whom God created His creation, and this image (likeness, resemblance) was incarnate and suffered death. It wasn't God the Father who suffered death, nor was God the Father the firstborn of the dead, His Son (likeness, resemblance) did satisfy those things though.

If the phrase "created all things" is applied strictly to God the Father then all the passage must be applied to God the Father. Using this approach, verse 15 is speaking of God the Father being the image of the invisible God the Father, which presents many many problems in the exegesis of the passage.

If it's your contention that verse 15 is speaking of God the Father we could begin there and discuss the entirety of the passage using that view and see if that works scripture by scripture.

My point is that if Jesus were created then it makes verse 16 impossible to be true.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Who is the Him spoken of in verse 16? Whoever the Him is he did not have a creator because as the creator of all things He would have had to create Himself befroe he existed otherwise He would not be the creator of all things.

When you compare the colossians 1:16 with John 1:3

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Again He someone is shown as making all things and in fact it here goes so far as to say that if He did not make it then it was not made. Whoever the is in this verse cannot have had a creator if we are to accept this verse for what it says.

So who do you say the these to verses are talking about?

[Praxeas]

He would have to have created Himself.

Besides that it never made sensd to me to call someone "Creator" who doesn't actually create but has someone else do it for Him

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Luke

My point is that if Jesus were created then it makes verse 16 impossible to be true.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Who is the Him spoken of in verse 16? Whoever the Him is he did not have a creator because as the creator of all things He would have had to create Himself befroe he existed otherwise He would not be the creator of all things.

When you compare the colossians 1:16 with John 1:3

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Again He someone is shown as making all things and in fact it here goes so far as to say that if He did not make it then it was not made. Whoever the is in this verse cannot have had a creator if we are to accept this verse for what it says.

So who do you say the these to verses are talking about?

I say the verses are talking about Jesus and His God and Father, God the Father.

Who are you saying the verses, not just a snippet in the discourse, but verse 15, identifying the 'who' is that's the firstborn of every creature, and the following associated verses are talking about? Maybe we agree and just don't realize it. We've applied my view to the passage and it seems to be found lacking in your opinion, now let's apply your view and see if it fits the passage...or if it's found lacking also. Let's find out who 'him' is in the entirety of the passage. Who is the image of the invisible God and who is the 'him' in the following verses, including verse 16.

This should be an interesting discussion.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He would have to have created Himself.

Besides that it never made sensd to me to call someone "Creator" who doesn't actually create but has someone else do it for Him

Who created the world trade center, the architect or the builders who built from the architect's plans?