Respect as Women

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

This was true for me as well, but I think something to consider is that the respect was better than where we came from but maybe not better than some men outside the church treat women. I am not sure this is a church/non-church thing. It may be we just were in a crummy culture growing up. I know I was, for sure. I was raised Catholic, but the church was not my main place of meeting/knowing people.

I was in the Baptist church for a time, being part of the single's group. I didn't experience that same type of respect I received in the pentecostal environment. It was a higher level of conscience tenderness. An awareness of boundaries not crossed. And, yes, that could have just been my experience.

Perhaps there is something to - the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost?

I also worked in sales competing, largely, with men. So, of course, I brushed against a lot of disrespect and I won't go into my opinion of men in general. I can say that even as a licensed bartender, I found that if I acted respectful, I received the same.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Unity is not the same as uniformity.

Sometimes it is. Gotta run. Have a good one and Happy New Year, ILG!

[ILG]

I was in the Baptist church for a time, being part of the single's group. I didn't experience that same type of respect I received in the pentecostal environment.

I see.

I also worked in sales competing, largely, with men. So, of course, I brushed against a lot of disrespect and I won't go into my opinion of men in general. I can say that even as a licensed bartender, I found that if I acted respectful, I received the same.

So, you received disrespect when competing in sales but not in tending bar because you weren't competing?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Sometimes it is. Gotta run. Have a good one and Happy New Year, ILG!

You too, PO.

[KeptByTheWord]

I've been thinking a lot about this issue, since the original post. I've been thinking about the respect for women in or out of the church. For the record, I grew up in OP, and never have really been "in the world" per se. Although, many in OP circles, to look at me today would judge me as being "in the world" because I occasionally wear makeup, have a ring, and a few pieces of jewelry, and wear slacks.

I heard it said all my life (in OP circles) that men do not respect a woman in pants, because she is trying to look like them, and it is blurring the gender distinction. However, since leaving the traditional OP establishment, I have continued to embrace a lifestyle of modesty, and separation, just not exactly according to OP tradition. Even with a pair of slacks on, I have long hair, light makeup, and perhaps a necklace on, but I am very feminine, and modest in my appearance. I have never had a problem with disrespect from men, and most of the time, people ask me, after talking to them for a bit, which church do I belong to, and many ask for prayer for a situation in their life.

You see, modesty, and righteous living is a heart condition that can be observed by one's behavior, and lifestyle, and people don't have to see a woman in a dress to respect her.

A woman receives respect because of her attitude, and behavior, every bit as much as her outward appearance.

I have had men open doors for me, cease to cuss when they are in my presence, and cut dirty jokes short in my presence, and I never have to say a word, and *gasp* I have a pair of slacks on!

So, this is point in case, that respect for women largely depends on how that woman respects herself, loves God, and her behavior speaks as loud as her clothing, if not more. I have seen some very obnoxious behavior from women in skirts, and likewise, very obnoxious behavior from a women in a pair of slacks. The problem is the heart condition.

I do think that while women may not have major leadership roles in the OP churches, they are still encouraged to teach, and are respected for their input in this way.

I believe a woman's most valuable asset is her God-given ability to nurture, love, encourage, and teach others. And in this way, she excels. The Titus 2 woman is certainly the role model every Christian women would want to model herself after.

And in going full circle here, I think respect of women is higher in the church, because the church values the importance of the roles women play, even as we were designed by God to have these roles, and for this reason, respect for women should be higher in the church, than anywhere else.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

You see, modesty, and righteous living is a heart condition that can be observed by one's behavior, and lifestyle, and people don't have to see a woman in a dress to respect her.

A woman receives respect because of her attitude, and behavior, every bit as much as her outward appearance.

I have had men open doors for me, cease to cuss when they are in my presence, and cut dirty jokes short in my presence, and I never have to say a word, and *gasp* I have a pair of slacks on!

So, this is point in case, that respect for women largely depends on how that woman respects herself, loves God, and her behavior speaks as loud as her clothing, if not more. I have seen some very obnoxious behavior from women in skirts, and likewise, very obnoxious behavior from a women in a pair of slacks. The problem is the heart condition.

Thanks for your input KBTW. I think you are right about your attitude and behavior is most of it. I do know though that the outward standards are a visual for people so they know before they see your attitude and behavior and that a certain respect comes with that, like a barrier or buffer. However, again, the necessity of that barrier is a matter of personal opinion. I have missed the barrier at times, because I didn't have to explain myself as much. Not being a very verbal person, I found it helpful.

I also think that people like myself and PO, who have seen the rank behavior of men too close up to want to remember it, have maybe been more thankful for those physical, visual standards and barriers than those who haven't been because it's a rough world out there, particularly as you are learning another lifestyle than the one you were brought up in. For me to have seen those benefits and still to have left them because of the toxicity of standards preaching as salvational had to have been extreme. And it was. I don't see myself ever going back, but sometimes I miss the simplicity of the message of a visual standard and if they had not been preached as salvational, there is a possibility I would still be living that today. It is irrelevant at this point, to my life, with the exception of sorting out still what to keep and what to throw away and how to help next generations keep the principles, the attitudes and the respect without the externals.

[KeptByTheWord]

ILG, I can see that having that physical identification coming out of the rough world you grew up in, was a beautiful thing, and it provided for you the covering that it was intended to have.

If only the OP could have foreseen the dangers of teaching applications instead of principles, perhaps the beautiful thing that the message was to you could have been preserved.

But, as you found out.... the dark side of it wasn't immediately visible and recognizable, but once it became clear, you had to make a choice. You made the choice to leave, as did I. And maybe our reasons were the same for leaving... well at least speaking for myself, I asked myself, how can I be expected to be a SS teacher, a musician, a ladies leader and involved in bible study outreach and be expected to teach people that they must follow and do things as a salvational necessity.... knowing that they aren't... and do I therefore become responsible for misleading people down the very path I was misled on?

So that is the dilemma. Each one has to make a choice, and once the blinders are off, it is impossible really to go back and just accept it the way it was before you knew any different.

I believe the heart of the OP message is truth, but much of it has been clouded with man's opinions, and doctrines.

I stand behind my statement earlier... if principles could be taught, instead of applications... I really, really believe there could be a turning point and a true breaking forth of the Spirit of God, but while the doctrines of men are still heralded as salvational... God is not going to do the things HE could do.... I continue to pray that change will come.

These two passages of scripture illustrate perfectly just what the Lord thinks of "man's doctrines" ...

Isaiah 29:13-14 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men,

Therefore behold I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

And again Jesus used this very same passage that HE spoke through Isaiah the prophet, and called attention to the religious group of the day, the Pharisees, that He was speaking to them when he said this,

Matt. 15:7-9 "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, but in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Jesus NEVER once in all his teachings placed emphasis on external appearances, and in fact, most times condemned those who did, but instead, he dealt every time with the heart issues.

IF the OP would follow the example led by Jesus, and teach the principles, teach the heart issues... then the spirit of the Lord would lead each one to apply those principles in their lives. That is the intention of the spirit of the Lord, to lead and guide us.

But in the words of Jesus, "in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Pretty hard hitting here. Until the light breaks forth on those bound by the toxicity of teaching men's applications and doctrines as salvational.... perhaps we will not really see the outpouring of the spirit of the Lord in our day.

[renee819]

ILG and Kept, it gives me no pleasure to tell you that I have experienced the same things.

[Amanah]

Worldly culture teaches women that their value is related to youthful sex appeal.
Immersion in this culture bombards us with images of casual sexual encounters as being a normal part of the human experience.

The only voice that I have had encountered that teaches that women are to be respected as family, mothers, sisters, and daughters has come from the church.

The ability to see myself as Christ sees me, and not as the world would paint me, has come from the church.

My self respect, ability to live in the world but not of it, to present my body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, orginated in the teaching I received from the Church.

Mass culture is so pervasive that I need the strength, and support of the church to continue to live a holy, separate life. I'm willing to bet that most people are the same.

Without the church, and the teaching that I received, I shudder to think what path my life would have taken.

OP heritage is tied to the holiness movement, and some of the lines of protection that have been drawn may have been drawn a little more sharply then was needful. And there is a slow course correction that is taking place in the OP movement that I can see since when I first became a part of the movement.

But the beautiful truth that is taught, the power and annointing of the Holy Ghost that is experienced, seeing people receive the spirit of God, seeing lives changed, people healed and given hope, these things are precious treasures.

I don't think the OP movement is perfect, how can it be when it is made up of flawed humans, but I'm convinced it is the most perfect representation of what the bible teaches the church should be that exists on this planet to date.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

But, as you found out.... the dark side of it wasn't immediately visible and recognizable, but once it became clear, you had to make a choice. You made the choice to leave, as did I. And maybe our reasons were the same for leaving... well at least speaking for myself, I asked myself, how can I be expected to be a SS teacher, a musician, a ladies leader and involved in bible study outreach and be expected to teach people that they must follow and do things as a salvational necessity.... knowing that they aren't... and do I therefore become responsible for misleading people down the very path I was misled on?

This is what it came down to for me.