Love One Another and the Cross

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The proper position of GOD IS LOVE according to the Bible.

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The BELIEF is stressed by Jesus just as Paul later focused on that. It's the ones who BELIEVE Christ's death on the cross who are given eternal life. And that belief, Jesus said, was the manner in which the APOSTLES explained it.

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

The whole aspect of BELIEF is a stumblingstone to those who work for salvation.

1Pe 2:6-8 KJV Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people. Our acts of love are considered that which God looks for to reckon us as righteous. Nothing in the bible teaches this whatsoever.

Rom 5:6-9 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

God's actual and true LOVE is not a respect-of-persons sort of love where He only loves SOME people enough to save them based upon how much they love others. True love of God is much more vast. It loves EVERYONE no matter HOW SINFUL they are. Your love of God is what verse 7 touches upon. A respect pf persons love where only for the RIGHTEOUS who already love people, and earned that righteousness through that love, will one die. But that is not the love of God.

Eph 2:7 KJV That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

All you've said, Shazeep, is a works-based grace of God upon us, which is not grace at all. It is earned wages. And THAT is what needs to be exposed at every chance I can get. A false love based upon our performance of how much we can love others. That version of Eph. 2:7 would be "In the ages to come God might show the exceeding riches our HUMAN LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER, through people's works and efforts of love, and NOT through Christ.

What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection:

Rom 4:25 KJV Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

His death was caused due to OUR offences. Not His own. He died in proxy as us since we deserved that death. His resurrection took place in order for us to be counted righteous. And it is our faith IN THAT, and NOT OUR WORKS OF LOVE, that God says is basis for our righteousness.

Every false religion is based upon salvation by works. What WE can do to EARN wages of heaven;y entrance.

Joh 10:15 KJV As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus repeatedly explained He would die for the PEOPLE. And FOR THE PEOPLE means AS THE PEOPLE. They merely need to believe, for there are not enough works of love anyone can do to earn heaven.

Joh 3:14KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

All Israel had to do in the wilderness is look at the serpent on the pole to be healed. All we have to do is look to Jesus' death on the cross to be saved. The works based version says to love people until God is so impressed with our stage performance that he hurls a bouquet of roses onstage in the form of tickets to heaven.

Salvation by works damns a soul.

Eph 2:12-16 KJV That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

God chose Israel and they were CLOSE to Him. Gentiles were far away WITHOUT HOPE. No love could be garnered enough in our hearts for us to earn His attention and pay us wages into heaven. It was not a sudden turnaround of gentile people toward a love activity that caught God's attention enough to pay us by drawing us close to him. It was the DEATH OF THE CROSS in our steads as well as Israels, and the BLOOD SHED for remission of sins. It's not loving deeds that remits sins, for that is salvation by works.

All false religions have the one common denominator: salvation by works. No remission sins takes place without shed blood. Good works FOLLOW the greatest display of love of God possible... the death of Christ for our salvation, not the acts of OUR love for OUR salvation. That's salvation by works.

All the talk about the good Samaritan is bereft of any note of Christ saying THAT SAVES US. If that were the case, those who don't love and are unlovable by man were not considered in Christ's death on the cross, and Paul lied when he said Christ died for the ungodly. In this false doctrine of salvation by works., Christ only died for the godly and the loving. Jesus never meant for us to think we can be saved by works of love when he spoke of the good Samaritan. he only said we must do the same works BECAUSE we are saved NOT TO GET SAVED.

But the flesh wants its two cents worth of works to pat itself on the back, boastingly, and say I SAVED MYSELF!

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Originally Posted by Shazeep

How can both be true, iow--

"God is Love."

"Everyone who does not believe like i do goes to hell."

Here is the logical fallacy in this salvation-by-works based implication.

When the word of God states God loved the entire world so much that He gave His Son in death as a sacrifice for us to have everlasting life, and then in the same breath said its those who BELIEVE who receive that eternal life, BELIEF is the key not works.

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Over and over, the most widely known passage showing God's love, spoken by Jesus, Himself, is surrounded and itself includes the need to BELIEVE. What specific thing must we believe? We must believe in His name/authority in being the one whose death is the avenue of God's love displayed to us for our salvation and reception of eternal life.

Someone comes along who rejects Christ's authority to be the one whose DEATH ALONE manifests God's love, and doesn't even believe Jesus was crucified, let alone the sole one whose authority in His death is the avenue of salvation. In short, it's not they don't believe WHAT I BELIEVE. lol. It is simply dishonest to phrase it in that manner. It's disbelief in what the very One, Himself, said about the avenue of God's love.

So, it is not a matter of disbelieving WHAT I BELIEVE. What I believe is not the focus. If I believe what Jesus said I must believe to get eternal life, then that is true. But to phrase it that way alone is absolutely dishonest, and severely disingenuous.

The actual focus is upon what JESUS SAID we must believe. So, if people do not believe what JESUS SAID THEY MUST BELIEVE, they are lost. It is a red herring and a dishonest lie to say the focus on our words is upon what we believe, and the claim that all who are lost because they disagree with that. The truth is all are lost who disagree with what Jesus said we must believe.

LIE: We claim people who don believe what we do are all going to hell.

TRUTH: People who do not believe what Jesus said we must believe are all going to hell.

Here's what we must believe:

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And if they do not believe THAT, they are LOST AND CONDEMNED already.

Shazeep, do you agree with the following words?

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Shazeep, where is ONE NOTE of your salvation by the works of loving each other in the above passage -- or even the entire chapter? THAT chapter is speaking about salvation. Not the chapter about the good Samaritan.

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Here is where the confusion arises in the proponent of salvation by works.

Before Jesus spoke of the good Samaritan, the lawyer (not his occupation -- expert on MOSAIC LAW OF OLD COVENANT) asked WHAT TO DO to inherit eternal life. He fixated on works, as well he should being a lawyer of old testament law.

Luk 10:25-28 KJV And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Jesus repeated the Law of Moses in telling the man to DO those LAWS and HE WOULD LIVE. In other words, he would get eternal life.

Lev 18:5 KJV Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

And the greatest of all those laws by which a man will LIVE (get eternal life) is Love God, and the next is love thy neighbour.

Deu 6:5 KJV And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Lev 19:18 KJV Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

The lawyer was correct. Jesus repeated what Moses said. If a man DO these things he shall live.

But what Shazeep, and all other workers for salvation overlook is that although Jesus said if we do these things we shall get eternal life, the problem was NO ONE COULD DO THEM! These folks are running a treadmill they can never complete! If we fail in one point, we've ruined the whole shot!

Jas 2:10 KJV For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, as the New Testament clearly reveals, no one can humanly succeed in keeping those laws adequately enough to pass the test and earn eternal life. If one could, then one would indeed be saved by works.

So Paul explained why this situation is so.

Rom 7:10 KJV And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

It was ordained to life! It stated itself that if one can keep it perfectly, one will live!

But...

Rom 7:12-14 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is not wrong. The Law is not the problem. It was correct in what it said. It is right to say that if we love our neighbours as ourselves, and love God with all our hearts we can be saved by works. But when you do not study the whole and entire picture, and cover all the teachings in the bible that deal with this subject, and just chop off Luke 10 and focus there alone, you MISS the fact that NO ONE CAN FULFILL THAT SUCCESSFULLY!

Wen you read the REST OF THE BIBLE along with that, you realize there is sin in our flesh that disables us from succeeding in that endeavour to gain eternal life. The law is right! It's holy! It's meant to give us eternal life. But sin in our flesh disallows that from happening. NO ONE CAN LOVE TO THAT EXTENT.

We will fail in one point sooner or later, and become guilty of the whole law.

That is why God gave law! To prove that man HAS SIN. It proves that MAN CANNOT do what must be DONE to save himself. Theoretically, WE CAN BE SAVED BY WORKS, but that demands sinlessness. And none of us are without sin. Sin is in our flesh and it's there to stay until the resurrection. So, there was only one recourse. GRACE. NOT WORKS.

The same righteousness that a perfect keeper of the law could earn is available BY ANOTHER PATHWAY:

Rom 3:20-26 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Since man was unable to perform the perfect law, then God established ANOTHER ROUTE to the same RIGHTEOUSNESS. BELIEF.

Shaz, you're stuck on inability to realize one could be righteous by works of law -- love -- if man had no sin. But there is no man without sin, except Christ. So God established the route of GRACE to achieve for us the same righteousness we would get if we could perfectly keep law without one fail.

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Paul showed Timothy the same truth.

Law was MEANT to give man eternal life! But man was too sinful.

1Ti 1:5 KJV Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

The END or GOAL of the Law is to produce in mankind, through his obedience to that law, love from a pure heart (notice love is first?!), a good conscience and genuine faith.

But NO ONE WAS THAT GOOD TO SUCCEED perfectly in keeping law in order to earn that end.

So... the law was basically ineffective toward that end.

Rom 8:3-4 KJV For what the law could not do [read 1 Tim 1:5 to see what it tried to do] , in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The same righteousness the law tried to give, but failed due to INABILITY TO OVERRIDE THE SIN IN OUR FLESH, is provided by another means. That other means was GOD sending Christ in likeness of sinful flesh to die for those sins. THAT SAME righteousness law TRIED but FAILED to give through works, is provided BY GRACE.

Back to 1 Timothy 1.

The very things LAW could have given, but failed, are ABUNDANT in grace:

1Ti 1:14 KJV And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Shazeep, THIS is what you fail to learn when you read the bible. You say salvation is by works of love, and you are correct, but fail to realize NO ONE CAN SUCCEED ENOUGH. And you fail to see the Bible teaches THE SAME GOAL is achieved through FAITH. And because you are unaware of these teachings in the same bible Luke 10 is in, you do not realize law fails due to SIN IN OUR FLESH, and grace alone succeeds! in grace it's not our work, but God's work!

He'll likely not read this, but other readers, learn this well! Salvation by works DOES NOT SUCCEED.

[shazeep]

"Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people."

Well, you keep insisting upon that; yet faith without works is still dead. So, i think this might be another impasse.

You must have works to find salvation. (i'll just state it as baldly as possible)
true or false?

"What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection."
then why are fundamental Christians such jerks? We either have different definitions of "righteous," "faith," "His death," or "resurrection," or some combination.

I'll try to read the rest of your tome up there--or have my lawyer look it over--here in a bit; but it is obvious that religion invites one into certain legal interpretations of Scripture that then become our assumptions, and it doesn't hurt to examine these; especially when they lead one into such demonstrable oxymorons as "Everyone who does not believe like i do is lost, and going to hell" but "God is love."

Christ is certainly the author and perfecter of our faith; i am not intent on leading anyone away from the Cross, but toward it. "Greater LOVE hath no man."

Understand that i am not going to try to question your quotations--i could "prove" that Paul was "lost" using Scripture, too. So at a certain point, one must interpret with their heart.

[shazeep]

ok i'm seeing that most of the rest of your many words up there are still pushing "salvation is not of works," which i have already agreed to, so i think i am done. I do not disagree. One is free to accept whatever interpretation their heart tells them is correct; i cannot "prove" you are wrong. But i can demonstrate that it is in the choosing that one's heart is revealed, and that is what God judges.

Faith is what saves; and faith without works is not faith. Therefore, works reflect what one's faith is actually in, regardless of what they may claim it is in. The Spanish Inquisition claimed to be zealous for God, too.

[shazeep]

1 John 4:12 . . . If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

so my position might be put that one can find Christ through love, or try to find love through the church's definition of Christ.

"They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." G Massey

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Originally Posted by shazeep

1 John 4:12 . . . If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

so my position might be put that one can find Christ through love, or try to find love through the church's definition of Christ.

"They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." G Massey

Sinners will find Christ through our love, yes! They cannot see God, but they can see us love others. But it's not sinners themselves loving in order to find God. Taht's what you missed me saying.

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Originally Posted by shazeep

ok i'm seeing that most of the rest of your many words up there are still pushing "salvation is not of works," which i have already agreed to, so i think i am done. I do not disagree. One is free to accept whatever interpretation their heart tells them is correct; i cannot "prove" you are wrong. But i can demonstrate that it is in the choosing that one's heart is revealed, and that is what God judges.

Faith is what saves; and faith without works is not faith. Therefore, works reflect what one's faith is actually in, regardless of what they may claim it is in. The Spanish Inquisition claimed to be zealous for God, too.

Faith in the blood of Jesus for remission of sins is what saves. Not faith in anything else.

Unfortunately you never started to be able to be done, though. You have not dialogued, but monologued the same thing over and over again, disalllowing discussion on whether your thoughts on those issues is right or not.

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Originally Posted by shazeep

"Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people."

Well, you keep insisting upon that; yet faith without works is still dead. So, i think this might be another impasse.

If you would discuss this we can narrow down the issue. But everytime we come to the need to discuss a point you ignore it and nothing is accomplished. Everytime I say we have to dissect a verse and see what it's saying and what it's not saying, you are no where to be found.

For example, with this point you just made: I repeatedly said, YES, faith without works is dead. But what is that faith? What is if toward? What must be believed? And that faith WILL GROW and produce fruit. But FRUIT takes time to grow, that's why it's called fruit.

You must have works to find salvation. (i'll just state it as baldly as possible)
true or false?

False.

"What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection."
then why are fundamental Christians such jerks?

See? rather than go by what the word says or not, by actually taking the verses that deal with it, you resort to reasoning and counting heads. The fact is THERE ARE CHRISTIANS who are not jerks. But nevertheless, what saith the word? You are saying, "Since so many Christians are jerks, then the word is WRONG about faith."

We either have different definitions of "righteous," "faith," "His death," or "resurrection," or some combination.

But you won't discuss those things to deal with that answer. I'm trying.

I'll try to read the rest of your tome up there--or have my lawyer look it over--here in a bit; but it is obvious that religion invites one into certain legal interpretations of Scripture that then become our assumptions, and it doesn't hurt to examine these; especially when they lead one into such demonstrable oxymorons as "Everyone who does not believe like i do is lost, and going to hell" but "God is love."

I dealt with the logical fallacy in that example of yours.

Christ is certainly the author and perfecter of our faith; i am not intent on leading anyone away from the Cross, but toward it. "Greater LOVE hath no man."

What is the cross to you, though? I am narrowing these issues down, and your'e not getting involved. From what you've said, the cross is what YOU CARRY by LOVING. What I am saying is that is the secondary issue. The primary is CHRIST'S CROSS that He died AS US on.

Understand that i am not going to try to question your quotations--i could "prove" that Paul was "lost" using Scripture, too. So at a certain point, one must interpret with their heart.

Context is vital. What is your interpreting with the heart? IS that not caring what context is but basing it upon an ethereal FEELING that one cannot be saved if one says others are lost? What is the basis for this ethereal FEELING, though? Is it Word? What Word? And it's not matter of the letter killeth. Paul was talking about OLD COVENANT Word when he said that.

But if your HEART is the basis for your assessment of any given verse in the bible, the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it? That's why our hearts cannot be the foundation of truth we rely upon to compare it with errors. THE WORD itself is the foundation. It is without bias whereas the heart is full of bias. And so we must be as honest as we can AS WE read the word to find truth. God meant ONE THING when He gave a truth, and did NOT intend us to interpret it at whims of our HEARTS.