Vetting failure led to terrorism?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

No EB. The "he" is me. I was giving you another glimpse of my background as it is pertinent to this part of the conversation.

If I really thought I could have remained with my last Apostolic church without causing confusion, then I would have stayed-- but that's just it, it's been my experience that there isn't room for wavering on "core" Apostolic doctrines among most Apostolics that I have met, which leads me to make the statement that if the Apostolics are right, then the vast majority of Christendom is in burning in hell as we communicate.

But if the Apostolics are wrong, then it will only be by the Grace of God that they will stand shoulder to shoulder with their Trinitarian brothers and sisters in eternity.

That's an emotional response not based on word. It's not a matter of if so and so is right or wrong. Noah only saw eight souls on earth saved.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's an emotional response not based on word. It's not a matter of if so and so is right or wrong. Noah only saw eight souls on earth saved.

Bravo!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

No EB. The "he" is me. I was giving you another glimpse of my background as it is pertinent to this part of the conversation.

If I really thought I could have remained with my last Apostolic church without causing confusion, then I would have stayed-- but that's just it, it's been my experience that there isn't room for wavering on "core" Apostolic doctrines among most Apostolics that I have met, which leads me to make the statement that if the Apostolics are right, then the vast majority of Christendom is in burning in hell as we communicate.

But if the Apostolics are wrong, then it will only be by the Grace of God that they will stand shoulder to shoulder with their Trinitarian brothers and sisters in eternity.

Did you notice that nothing you ever post (concerning this topic) has anything to do with the Word? What is truth? If truth even matter to your God? Elder Epley believes what he believes because he sees it in the scripture. You don't see what he sees and therefore you believe your right and everyone else is wrong, saved, but wrong? Bro, that just doesn't fly. You have issues with 'CONGREGATIONS" not Apostolics across the board. Because in the Apostolic movement you have more flavors than Baskin and Robbins. If I made my decisions according to my feelings, being hurt or being caressed, I would get nowhere in life.

Trinitarians view God three sided, they literally see Him as three separate people. Please don't post to me that they see Him as singular or that they believe Jesus is God. Because they believe Jesus is a god, and God is the Father. They believe salvation is just accepting Jesus (which for the life of me doesn't make any sense) or recite some incantation "sinner's prayer" like it is a magic spell. A vast majority of Christendom? Seriously? Bro, I have family members who are Roman Catholics and the "vast majority" mantra were chanted by them long before you or I were born. Anyone who was not a part of the Roman Catholic Church had NO salvation up till Vatican II. After that they started to open their arms to one and all. Now the Eastern Orthodox are still hanging in there with the mindset if you are not Orthodox you have NO salvation.

But where do these groups get these ideas? Because Jesus said Narrow is the path, and extremely tight is the door that leads to eternal life and FEW there are who will find it. Even my atheist father figured that one out, but he was always honest with himself and his family.He liked to call'em like he saw'em. He hated Christians for one reason, they NEVER read, or followed their book, or the God of their book. (my father's words not mine). He would follow his statement with this.."If Jesus would come back in the flesh today the Christians would drag Him behind a truck and strip Him bare, then nail Him to the cross again. My father's words not mine.

JD, this isn't about nice people telling you praise the Lord while they are dishing you out some cheesy corn bake, at a dinner on the grounds. Or worship services with everyone hands lifted shoulder height swaying back and forth to Hillsong.

This is about Truth, and making it through the narrow path and making into the tight gate.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If salvation wasn't found in this Way, then *I* wouldn't be part of it.

If salvation was found in the Baptist way, then believe I'd be a Baptist.

If salvation was found in the doctrine of John Wesley, I'd be a Wesleyan Methodist.

But I found salvation in the Bible. And lo and behold, so did a lot of other folks. And it includes knowing there is One God, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit, One Body. It is in accordance with the doctrine of the apostles of Jesus Christ. It proclaims repentance and remission of sins, in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, it proclaims there is NO salvation (repentance and remission of sins) in ANY OTHER NAME, and it proclaims that repenting and being baptised in THAT ONE, SAVING NAME is where obedience to the gospel begins.

Anything other than what the apostles taught is not real Christianity, and will not save anyone. How could it?

I disagree with this "us 4 and no more" kind of thinking.

I am Apostolic true blue, just not the UPCI kind, however I tend to embrace all Apostolics of every stripe.

Now when it comes to the Trinitarians, I do not say they are saved, but neither do I say they are lost, for I do not feel it is my place to sit in judgment of them, that is God's job.

If we had to have perfect doctrine or theology in order to be saved then none of us would be saved for in my many years in the Apostolic camp, I have never met a person that had perfect doctrine, not even me.

of course there are always pretenders who hint that they only have perfect theology and if anyone does not agree with them 100% then they are lost and in their way to hell, without passing go, without collecting 200 dollars.

I do hope that perhaps God will be merciful and take in Baptists, Methodists, and even Catholics, why not?

I do not see nothing contradictory or inconsistent in preaching the Apostolic message and yet hoping that the Trinitarians will also be saved, after all they too have faith in Jesus Christ, perhaps an imperfect faith, but faith nevertheless.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I disagree with this "us 4 and no more" kind of thinking.

There is no 'us four and no more' kind of thinking. Either there is a way of salvation revealed in the Bible, or there is not. Either the way of salvation can be known, or it cannot be known. If it can be known, then it can be known that those who refuse it or do not know it are not in the way of salvation.

Now when it comes to the Trinitarians, I do not say they are saved, but neither do I say they are lost, for I do not feel it is my place to sit in judgment of them, that is God's job.

Identifying the lost as 'lost' is not sitting in judgment of them. It is simply identifying what is declared by the Scripture as to what salvation is, what it looks like, how it works out. By declaring that whoever has not obeyed the gospel is lost one is not sitting in judgment of them, one is not making a judicial decision that sends them to any destination whatsoever. One is simply agreeing with God as to the terms of salvation.

If we had to have perfect doctrine or theology in order to be saved then none of us would be saved for in my many years in the Apostolic camp, I have never met a person that had perfect doctrine, not even me.

The Bible tells us plainly what it takes to be saved. Everybody either conforms to it, or they are lost. This 'perfect doctrine' nonsense is just that - nonsense, a red herring, a straw man. Nobody suggests one has to have perfect understanding of all things whatsoever to be saved. Nobody suggested that. Nobody claimed that. Only you brought it up as something to argue against - but nobody hold that position. It's called a straw man.

of course there are always pretenders who hint that they only have perfect theology and if anyone does not agree with them 100% then they are lost and in their way to hell, without passing go, without collecting 200 dollars.

Straw man. Red herring. Irrelevent.

I do hope that perhaps God will be merciful and take in Baptists, Methodists, and even Catholics, why not?

He absolutely will, if they will repent of their sins and be baptised, and wash away their sins, calling on the name of the Lord!

I do not see nothing contradictory or inconsistent in preaching the Apostolic message and yet hoping that the Trinitarians will also be saved, after all they too have faith in Jesus Christ, perhaps an imperfect faith, but faith nevertheless.

If the apostolic message is indeed the apostolic message - that is, the message preached by THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES - then anyone who rejects that message has, according to Jesus, rejected HIM. So why would you be hoping that those who reject Christ would be saved ANYWAY, in spite of their rejection of the truth? Might as well become a universalist for that matter.

Christ is Truth. We are sanctified by the Truth, which is the Word of God. If we will not conform to the Truth now, in this life, we aren't fit for glory, for an eternity with the One who is Himself TRUTH INCARNATE. We wouldn't enjoy it anyway! A person who is not conformed to the truth, who does not LOVE THE TRUTH (which is the Word of God), would not love to be with God for eternity, it would be torment to them. If a person doesn't love Truth now, they aren't going to suddenly love it then.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There is no 'us four and no more' kind of thinking. Either there is a way of salvation revealed in the Bible, or there is not. Either the way of salvation can be known, or it cannot be known. If it can be known, then it can be known that those who refuse it or do not know it are not in the way of salvation.

Identifying the lost as 'lost' is not sitting in judgment of them. It is simply identifying what is declared by the Scripture as to what salvation is, what it looks like, how it works out. By declaring that whoever has not obeyed the gospel is lost one is not sitting in judgment of them, one is not making a judicial decision that sends them to any destination whatsoever. One is simply agreeing with God as to the terms of salvation.

The Bible tells us plainly what it takes to be saved. Everybody either conforms to it, or they are lost. This 'perfect doctrine' nonsense is just that - nonsense, a red herring, a straw man. Nobody suggests one has to have perfect understanding of all things whatsoever to be saved. Nobody suggested that. Nobody claimed that. Only you brought it up as something to argue against - but nobody hold that position. It's called a straw man.

Straw man. Red herring. Irrelevent.

He absolutely will, if they will repent of their sins and be baptised, and wash away their sins, calling on the name of the Lord!

If the apostolic message is indeed the apostolic message - that is, the message preached by THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES - then anyone who rejects that message has, according to Jesus, rejected HIM. So why would you be hoping that those who reject Christ would be saved ANYWAY, in spite of their rejection of the truth? Might as well become a universalist for that matter.

Christ is Truth. We are sanctified by the Truth, which is the Word of God. If we will not conform to the Truth now, in this life, we aren't fit for glory, for an eternity with the One who is Himself TRUTH INCARNATE. We wouldn't enjoy it anyway! A person who is not conformed to the truth, who does not LOVE THE TRUTH (which is the Word of God), would not love to be with God for eternity, it would be torment to them. If a person doesn't love Truth now, they aren't going to suddenly love it then.

OK let me put it this way
You believe in Acts 2:38, so do I
You believe in One God, so do I
You believe in keeping the Sabbath, so do I

So you and me are in agreement in those three points, but what about those Apostolics which do not accept the Sabbath? Are they lost?

They are not conforming to the truth of the Sabbath, should I then say that they are totally lost.
And if they are not lost because they fail to keep the Sabbath, then our keeping of the Sabbath is then irrelevant, for this does not confer any special status.

Likewise, the Trinitarians get baptized in what they believe Jesus told them to get baptized, they believe they are keeping correctly the commandment of baptism just like the Sabbath deniers believe they are keeping the Sabbath on Sunday.

The Trinitarians believe in one God also, they never claim to believe in three gods, it is a misunderstanding in their part to believe that this one god is made up of three persons. Yet they strongly believe in one God.

God wants us to know him and understand him, but is not having the right theology 100% correct a ground to dismiss their salvation?

I know and I am sure that Trinitarians are incorrect in their theology, just like I am sure that Apostolics who do not keep the Sabbath are wrong in their theology regarding this matter. Yet if I refuse to condemn my Apostolic Brethren who do not keep the Sabbath, why should I then condemn the Trinitarians for being wrong in some other theological aspects of the Bible?

[Praxeas]

Vetting?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

OK let me put it this way
You believe in Acts 2:38, so do I
You believe in One God, so do I
You believe in keeping the Sabbath, so do I

So you and me are in agreement in those three points, but what about those Apostolics which do not accept the Sabbath? Are they lost?

They are not conforming to the truth of the Sabbath, should I then say that they are totally lost.
And if they are not lost because they fail to keep the Sabbath, then our keeping of the Sabbath is then irrelevant, for this does not confer any special status.

Likewise, the Trinitarians get baptized in what they believe Jesus told them to get baptized, they believe they are keeping correctly the commandment of baptism just like the Sabbath deniers believe they are keeping the Sabbath on Sunday.

The Trinitarians believe in one God also, they never claim to believe in three gods, it is a misunderstanding in their part to believe that this one god is made up of three persons. Yet they strongly believe in one God.

God wants us to know him and understand him, but is not having the right theology 100% correct a ground to dismiss their salvation?

I know and I am sure that Trinitarians are incorrect in their theology, just like I am sure that Apostolics who do not keep the Sabbath are wrong in their theology regarding this matter. Yet if I refuse to condemn my Apostolic Brethren who do not keep the Sabbath, why should I then condemn the Trinitarians for being wrong in some other theological aspects of the Bible?

If you are driving around town, looking for a specific restaurant, and I tell you "hey, you are going the wrong way, if you want to get to your destination go this way"... did I write you off as lost and without hope; of ever finding your goal? I could without any equivocation or " judgmentalism" say "IF you persist in going the route you have planned you will certainly NOT arrive at the restaurant". Now suppose you REJECTED the directions I gave you.

You choose to go south but the restaurant is in fact north. I can hope you will turn around before you wind up out of gas. but it would make NO sense for me to hope you will head south but magically end up north.

[Jermyn Davidson]

At the end of all the discussion, what I surmised earlier is still correct.

If the Apostolics are right, then all non-Apostolics, (meaning just about all Christians between the days of the Apostle Paul and December 9, 2015) are lost. The ones who have already died, are in hell.

All because they were not baptized the right way, right?
All because they don't have the same idea of the Godhead as we have, right?
All because they never spoke in tongues, right?

Because the Bible plainly teaches, without contradiction, that the only formula for water baptism is in the Name of Jesus Christ-- or is it Lord Jesus Christ? Or is it Jesus?

Because the Bible plainly teaches that you have to understand the Godhead and all manner of Biblical mysteries in order to be saved.

Because the Bible doesn't given any instruction that could be misunderstood concerning the role of speaking in tongues in the life of the Christian.

No room for misunderstandings, no Grace for the non-Apostolics.

Non-Apostolics are not saved, not our brothers and sisters, not true Christians, but they are all lost.

No, this isn't ludicrous at all!

[Esaias]

You tell us: does a person have to have the Spirit to enter into glory?

Does a person need their sins washed away to be saved?

Does a person HAVE to be born again to enter God's kingdom?

Can a person be saved who honestly believes the pope is the Vicar of Christ, the visible head of the church, infallible, and that his priests and his alone have the power to forgive sins through baptism, confession, communion, and last rights?

Does the bible even tell us what salvation is?

Or does the bible teach "whoever fancies himself a Christian is saved and bound for glory!'?????