Love One Another and the Cross - Page 35

mfblume · #**341** 12-15-2015, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

but really, who are we kidding? You do not want to hear the questions; and you are scared to death of the answers, as you have already shown.

Another lie! Give me the deal. Let's start afresh. Shoot, for you're only trying to kill. Ask the questions.

shazeep · #**342** 12-15-2015, 09:20 AM

you already know the questions--the ones you skipped all around and wouldn't give a straight answer to before. How does an OP determine if someone is saved?

mfblume · #**343** 12-15-2015, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

you already know the questions--the ones you skipped all around and wouldn't give a straight answer to before. How does an OP determine if someone is saved?

I asked you to start afresh. You ran around in so many nonsensical circles that I am not taking the time to wade through your wasted words to find them,because I quote posts when I respond. You've made this a dozen-ring circus.

Also, as I proceed, do you promise to answer all my questions and scriptures?

How do we determine how someone is saved? We can only go so far. We can only see their outward. We do not know their hearts. So all we can do is ask them if they have obeyed what Jesus and the Apostles told people to do to be saved.

In short we ask what Paul asked:

Act 19:1-5 KJV And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Did Paul do something wrong?

mfblume · #**344** 12-15-2015, 09:41 AM

Back again this evening. Work calls.

shazeep · #**345** 12-15-2015, 10:17 AM

How do we determine how someone is saved? We can only go so far. We can only see their outward. We do not know their hearts. So all we can do is ask them if they have obeyed what Jesus and the Apostles told people to do to be saved.

Makes sense to me. Nothing wrong with that. Paul did nothing wrong. But i will suggest that when you come to know someone, you learn their heart pretty quickly. So there is more that one can do than ask someone if they have obeyed Paul, which after all anyone can say they have obeyed Paul. And it just so happens that we have passages from Christ that explain this, and in fact go so far as to say that many will say that they have done what Paul said--in fact, many will "Cry" this, adamantly, refusing to accept any other explanations for what saving faith really is. And the very real intimation, by Christ, is to run from them.

So really, using your own words, it is the difference in truly "seeing their outward" vs "asking them" whatever. And being as how "seeing their outward" is effectively reduced to "i saw him go to the altar, and pray" by us now, even this definition can be corrupted.

shazeep · #**346** 12-15-2015, 10:31 AM

And with all due respect, this point has been sufficiently made now, i think. It is ultimately for each person to define. I have no desire to keep sniping at each other, and i only persisted because i remember when i thought everyone else was lost, and i had no sin. I was on top of the world; and those were my darkest days. If that sentence describes you, and you are proud of your knowledge about Christ, then you are in a bad way.

mfblume · #**347** 12-15-2015, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

How do we determine how someone is saved? We can only go so far. We can only see their outward. We do not know their hearts. So all we can do is ask them if they have obeyed what Jesus and the Apostles told people to do to be saved.

Makes sense to me. Nothing wrong with that. Paul did nothing wrong. But i will suggest that when you come to know someone, you learn their heart pretty quickly. So there is more that one can do than ask someone if they have obeyed Paul, which after all anyone can say they have obeyed Paul.

The greater point is that it really doesn't matter what we think about people being lost or saved. It matters what God thinks. And if someone tells me they're saved and obeyed what the apostles and Jesus commanded, then it makes little difference to me if they really did or not. If they didn't they still know what the truth demands, and I have no purpose than to relate the message.

Quote:

And it just so happens that we have passages from Christ that explain this, and in fact go so far as to say that many will say that they have done what Paul said--in fact, many will "Cry" this, adamantly, refusing to accept any other explanations for what saving faith really is. And the very real intimation, by Christ, is to run from them.

Obeying Acts 2:38 is much more than simply calling Jesus "Lord." But I also agree people can bey Acts 2:38 and the the ones who cry Lord Lord and be rejected in the end, IF in TIME they bear no fruit and do not carry through with all Christ said.

Quote:

So really, using your own words, it is the difference in truly "seeing their outward" vs "asking them" whatever. And being as how "seeing their outward" is effectively reduced to "i saw him go to the altar, and pray" by us now, even this definition can be corrupted.

I agree. But it really does not matter anyway. It matters what God sees. What we see or hear them say is not concrete for us. It's only what God sees that is concrete. But when a people blatantly deny His Sonship we know for sure in those cases.

mfblume · #**348** 12-15-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

And with all due respect, this point has been sufficiently made now, i think. It is ultimately for each person to define. I have no desire to keep sniping at each other, and i only persisted because i remember when i thought everyone else was lost, and i had no sin. I was on top of the world; and those were my darkest days. If that sentence describes you, and you are proud of your knowledge about Christ, then you are in a bad way.

I in no manner feel proud of who I think is lost while I am saved. That is nothing to do with my point, and I have made that known throughout these discussions. You just rejected my explanation about that.

shazeep · #**349** 12-15-2015, 10:40 PM

The greater point is that it really doesn't matter what we think about people being lost or saved. It matters what God thinks. And if someone tells me they're saved and obeyed what the apostles and Jesus commanded, then it makes little difference to me if they really did or not. If they didn't they still know what the truth demands, and I have no purpose than to relate the message.This is still disingenuous, and does not fairly address the statement "the overwhelming majority of churchianity accept bona fides as de facto evidence of salvation." Also, you say what God thinks is what matters, but you also say that All Muslims are lost because they lack your dogma and bona fides, and the two are not compatible. They are hypocrisy.

Obeying Acts 2:38 is much more than simply calling Jesus "Lord." But I also agree people can bey Acts 2:38 and the the ones who cry Lord Lord and be rejected in the end, IF in TIME they bear no fruit and do not carry through with all Christ said.

then you are halfway home!

by the same logic--which btw will never get one to God; logic--if one is rejected for non-bearing, they are accepted for bearing. Good fruit comes from good trees. Yes, it is a seemingly blasphemous leap; i'm still not quite sure i believe it myself. The position that one is presented with the GS merely as an example to follow has some merit, on its own; but for me, at least, taken with all of the other supporting Scripture, 9/10ths of the law, what you are insisting upon amounts to some words.

So in all conscience i am forced to look for a Scriptural situation in which the words might expressly be "no, i am not interested in your Christ, tyvm," that still end up being considered doing his father's will. And viola, the First Son. Now, you might have valid arguments against that, but i have not heard them. And that does not mean you are wrong; you do not have to believe what i believe.

I agree. But it really does not matter anyway. It matters what God sees. What we see or hear them say is not concrete for us. It's only what God sees that is concrete. But when a people blatantly deny His Sonship we know for sure in those cases.
well, it's either what God sees, or what you have defined as denying the Son, but not proven that God holds your definition; not necessarily both. Sounds good, i will admit; but frankly it is your surety that gives me pause. It is patently obvious how that can be made to be self-serving.

What if, say, i am a guy raised by two hypocritical Lord crying Bible-thumpers, and i'm now psychologically unable to follow anything that includes the terminology they used, but i have a good heart? What if i am the First Son, iow?

shazeep · #**350** 12-15-2015, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I in no manner feel proud of who I think is lost while I am saved. That is nothing to do with my point, and I have made that known throughout these discussions. You just rejected my explanation about that.

well, i'm lobbing grenades at it, yes. To me, it reeks of lack of humility, and/or self-servitude, and/or false superiority. "While i am saved?" Who lied to you, and told you that you were saved? You are not saved, and i can prove this with Scripture. Definitively. I would not describe myself as saved, either, although there were multiple decades when i would have.

I'm also having issues with "who i think is lost," for more or less the same reason; you believe you somehow have got a bead on who is saved or lost, and this is a dangerous, self serving position. None of these people has "held out to the end." I can make a case for many who you would surely term saved having not even begun holding out at all yet--they don't even know what holding out means, perhaps.

I am trying to imagine the case where "I, who am saved, humbly feel for those who don't believe as i do, and are lost" would not be accompanied by crocodile tears; and i can't. I can remember experiencing this perception, and of course "pride" is not how any Christian would describe it, once they know that "pride" is a code-word to be avoided, but that is pretty much full blown lack of humility regardless. Of course it is all Scripturally, factually justified; "proven," if you will. By ignoring some other Scripture--lots of other Scripture.