Drunk in the Spirit

[Barb]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sarcasm noted.



I Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

I Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

It seems to me he is greatly concerned about the confusion that was generated in the Corinthian church. The theme was personal edification should be kept in private. Public edification requires more discipline and order if everyone is to benefit---believer and unbeliever alike.

I wonder if people who convulse, scream, run around, flailing their arms---do that do that in the privacy of their prayer closet when it's just Jesus and them? Or does that only occur when there are onlookers? I think private worship and devotion should be more passionate and demonstrative than public worship. A husband and wife experience far greater passion and intimacy in private than they do in public. Unless of course they want to gross everybody out or go to jail. There's something uncomfortable about public displays of affection that cross a line. Why would it be any different with God?

I have witnessed a lot of very beautiful, genuine, sincere worship and I've witnessed a lot of showing off and self promoting, egotistical, hyped up carnal displays of affection that are more about the worshiper than the object of worship. Sadly, I must admit, being a part of the subculture, I caved into the power of suggestion and the atmosphere that unless you were going hog wild you weren't really worshiping.

Once at Bible school I got caught up in the peer pressure to lose all control and so I participated---on the heels of a week of Mangun family preaching and teaching---AM, Vesta, and GA. When I finished, I walked away feeling convicted that what I had done wasn't glorifying God but just me wanting acceptance. God convicted me and said, "while all this is going on, who is telling the lost about me?" I found a secret corner in the building and spent the rest of the time interceding for my lost friends.

Pentecostal culture doesn't really advocate "decent and order" worship---the wilder, crazier, out of control it is---the more godly it is. In my opinion and experience.




So you too have a definition of order. It's okay for you to define biblical order in church but you disparage me for having an opinion on order.

I just want to be biblical. I find no biblical evidence for many of the things that occur in Pentecostal/Spirit-Filled/Charismatic church services. Again, Google "holy laughter" or watch some other videos of non-apostolic Pentecostals and you will see some crazy stuff. There's one video of a guy diving in headfirst fully clothed into a baptistry.



Actually it was Paul preaching when the young man fell out of the window. I agree with you with the idea that we worship in our flesh. This idea of "in the spirit" means we lose all self-control, become some kind of a puppet on a string for God to sling us around is not biblical. I also agree that human beings have a b I also agree that human beings have a bent towards excess. That is why it's important to disciple and teach new believers what the Bible says about public worship. Growing up the only instructions we got were that liberty in the Holy Ghost meant no restrictions. Of course the Bible doesn't teach that.



I said that because you could go to a one God Jesus name apostolic Church in West Virginia, Kentucky, Georgia, or Alabama and witness people passing around venomous serpents and drinking poison out of mason jars and see that nothing happens to them and walk away concluding, if you're simply going to base it on what you saw with your own eyes and experiences, that their theology is sound.

The point I'm making is doctrine needs to be biblically-based, not rooted in experiences or anecdotal evidence.



I have indeed seen and heard plenty of unbelievers either express how the church service scared them, Or that the reputation of my church was strange or crazy.



I'm not saying that everything I witnessed or experienced was phony, A lot of genuine and sincere things happened. I believe in miracles I believe in the supernatural. But if something is not biblical I'm not going to accept it hook line and sinker.



I understand and agree in principle, but I don't think outsiders are going to say "those folks are crazy because they use pulpits and wireless microphones!



I'm all for diversity in the Body. That's why I choose not to be a Pentecostal as an identity. There will be plenty of Pentecostals in heaven. They just won't be he only ones.

Sorry about the sarcasm...couldn't help it.

Now, I never said anything about the whole body coming together and speaking in tongues being correct. If you go back and read my comments, I am saying just the opposite. As I understand this, Paul's letter was about the operation of the Gifts.

And like you, I have witnessed strange happenings, but unlike you, I am not willing to look at running and dancing with a skewed vision.

I respectfully disagree with this statement..."Pentecostal culture doesn't really advocate "decent and order" worship---the wilder, crazier, out of control it is---the more godly it is." That has never been my experience or understanding. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact.

Re my so called definition of order, I never meant to disparage anyone. Frankly, I kinda felt you were disparaging those who didn't agree with you. Forgive me if I misjudged you.

You are correct...it was Paul preaching like there was no tomorrow. I'm old...

In my experience, I have seen a few who were overcome with what is now called "holy laughter," and never once thought it odd. It was hit and miss, every now and then, and not the entire congregation carrying on. NOW the stuff that was going on in that holy laughter movement/phase from a few years ago...that is NOT what I have seen and heard in any Apostolic church.

As far as snake handlers go, I won't even comment on that.

Finally, DB, I agree that doctrine does indeed need to be biblically sound, but who is making worship/praise a doctrinal issue?

Life is all about choices. You choose not to be identified as a Pentecostal. That is your choice. On the other hand, unashamedly I stand and say I am Apostolic in doctrine and Pentecostal in experience. I make no apologies for my heritage and experiences.

We will agree to disagree here. As I posted the other day, "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation will suffice."

[Barb]

Originally Posted by CC1

This is an excellent post that reflects my perspective and attitude when questioning or disagreeing with things in old time Oneness Pentecost.

Any religious sect with doctrinal and cultural distinctives that set it apart from the larger body of believers in their overall belief system (OP's within Christianity as a whole) tend to be very reactionary to any questioning of their distinctives. Those doing so. in particular former members, are automatically ascribed to have ill movtives. They are "looking down on" or "mocking" in the minds of the sect members. It seems it can never be that they have honest differences in belief.

Now granted some present their differences in a offensive manner and many of you know that has been my complaint about some feelow "libs" on AFF. A lib being offensive is as offensive as a ultra con being so!

Do you think I was being "reactionary to any questioning?"

Often folks are indeed looking down on and mocking...not saying anyone who was/is...just saying.

I don't mind an honest difference of belief or opinion. I have them with OP's re some things myself, and I am one.

But presentation is everything.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

I Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

It seems to me he is greatly concerned about the confusion that was generated in the Corinthian church. The theme was personal edification should be kept in private. Public edification requires more discipline and order if everyone is to benefit---believer and unbeliever alike.

1 Corinthians 14 is being addressed to ministers who were relaying a message to the people. It had zero to do with congregants in front of the guy who was speaking to them. Hence the concern about what language he would be speaking.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I wonder if people who convulse, scream, run around, flailing their arms---do that do that in the privacy of their prayer closet when it's just Jesus and them?

DB, keep wondering, because when someone posts the above to you you want scriptural accuracy. But feel no conviction when you do it yourself? Anyway, the focus of 1st Corinthians 14 is people addressing people, the order in which it should be done. The main point is language, and the language was to be one that could be understood by the population of Corinthia. Since the language which couldn't be understood could only be understood by the one with a gift of interpretation or God Himself. That wasn't to ever be used to address a congregation. If there wasn't an interpreter, one part of the three fold witness they were to remain silent.
Privacy of a prayer closet isn't mentioned in 1st Corinthians 14, so much for your scriptural accuracy.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Or does that only occur when there are onlookers?

No, only when people like you who are dryer than a mummy's pocket come to service.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I think private worship and devotion should be more passionate and demonstrative than public worship.

That's good. Instead of running the pews, run around the garage or back yard.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

A husband and wife experience far greater passion and intimacy in private than they do in public.

1st Corinthians 14 isn't coming anywhere close to what you are saying. He is dealing with order of service, primarily with a three fold witness of teaching elders. Not with intimacy in or out of public. Well, I guess that's your scriptural accuracy again?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Unless of course they want to gross everybody out or go to jail. There's something uncomfortable about public displays of affection that cross a line. Why would it be any different with God?

You are always threatening me with the rape of my daughters and wife, if I continue in pacifism? Yet, you get uncomfortable with PDA? Also God's eyes are everywhere, so he closes them when you take off your clothes?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I have witnessed a lot of very beautiful, genuine, sincere worship

Oh, I see, you are one of those starchy guys who makes the rules on what's beautiful, genuine, and sincere worship. That figures.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

and I've witnessed a lot of showing off and self promoting, egotistical, hyped up carnal displays of affection that are more about the worshiper than the object of worship.

I bet you are just the guy to shut that stuff down in a skippy. A blow out service and people are going all over the place. People running and sliding in the altar, and DB running them down spraying them with starch.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sadly, I must admit, being a part of the subculture, I caved into the power of suggestion and the atmosphere that unless you were going hog wild you weren't really worshiping.

Here we go folks!

Here is the confession.

I'm sincerely sad to hear this is the experience which made you sour on the power.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Once at Bible school I got caught up in the peer pressure to lose all control and so I participated---on the heels of a week of Mangun family preaching and teaching---AM, Vesta, and GA. When I finished, I walked away feeling convicted that what I had done wasn't glorifying God but just me wanting acceptance. God convicted me and said, "while all this is going on, who is telling the lost about me?" I found a secret corner in the building and spent the rest of the time interceding for my lost friends.

Wait a minute! You don't believe now what you were taught in Bible College!
Funny, how God is always talking but never telling anyone what they are supposed to tell others? God did it throughout the Bible, but when He relays it to you Deacon Blue, He doesn't clue you in on the other things which you currently don't believe. You hear a still small voice, telling you the other brothers' worship was needless. Yet, not one drop of the pin towards telling you the Soteriology you NOW believe in? Bro, it all comes down to everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. You don't like ABC Apostolic movement so you trod off to XYZ Inclusive Christian movement. Al the while blaming God for your life choices. Stop.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Pentecostal culture doesn't really advocate "decent and order" worship---the wilder, crazier, out of control it is---the more godly it is. In my opinion and experience.

That's just the opinion of the Corn Starch Sourpusses and Co. Jesus knows what He is doing, and when HIS power is moving repent, because His Spirit. Not because someone shouted their oatmeal box lose.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So you too have a definition of order. It's okay for you to define biblical order in church but you disparage me for having an opinion on order.

Isn't this what you are doing?

You should really stick to short postings. You are a talker.

Hence you spill your beans a lot.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I just want to be biblical. I find no biblical evidence for many of the things that occur in Pentecostal/Spirit-Filled/Charismatic church services.

Bro, so does the Jehovah Witness, LDS, Fundamental Baptist, and every other cult and schism. They all JUST WANT TO BE BIBLICAL. They find no Biblical evidence against their paradigms. So, of course you find no Biblical evidence for that which you dislike, or feel isn't beautiful, genuine, and sincere worship. Everything is right in everyone's own eyes. The United States of Opinions.

When Billary Clinton sends you and I off to the Siberian gulag we will have a lot of time to talk this over.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Again, Google "holy laughter" or watch some other videos of non-apostolic Pentecostals and you will see some crazy stuff. There's one video of a guy diving in headfirst fully clothed into a baptistry.

Dude why not Google "Atheists Opinions on Christians?"

Bro, we can find a plethora of reasons on the internet to why one group is bad, and another group is good. Let me make a suggestion. Biblical truth isn't found with a browser.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Actually it was Paul preaching when the young man fell out of the window. I agree with you with the idea that we worship in our flesh. This idea of "in the spirit" means we lose all self-control, become some kind of a puppet on a string for God to sling us around is not biblical.

Let's see, he told a prophet to strip off sackcloth, shoes to go around naked Isaiah 20:2?

God told a king to disrobe and lay prostrate in front of a preacher?

1 Samuel 19:24

He tore off his clothes and lay naked on the ground all day and all night, prophesying in the presence of Samuel. The people who were watching exclaimed, "What? Is even Saul a prophet?"

DB, God told some prophets to do things which you would of shook a finger in God's face and said "not of God!"

Ever been to a foot washing with the preacher just wearing his underwear and wrapped only in a towel? John 13:4-5

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I also agree that human beings have a b I also agree that human beings have a bent towards excess. That is why it's important to disciple and teach new believers what the Bible says about public worship. Growing up the only instructions we got were that liberty in the Holy Ghost meant no restrictions. Of course the Bible doesn't teach that.

Again, DB confession time.

Sorry that you were told that you were told you can smack that pastor's wife and kick holes in the wall as long as it was the "liberty" in the Holy Ghost.

No one ever told me that over a pulpit.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I said that because you could go to a one God Jesus name apostolic Church in West Virginia, Kentucky, Georgia, or Alabama and witness people passing around venomous serpents and drinking poison out of mason jars and see that nothing happens to them and walk away concluding, if you're simply going to base it on what you saw with your own eyes and experiences, that their theology is sound.

Again, the Jehovah Witness, LDS, Sedevacantist, and Fundamental Baptist say the same thing. Yet, they believe you are wrong, still you claim you stand on theological soundness. They all have there arguments, they all would debate you. Yet, not everything is sound. Running pews, around or over the backs of them in the Holy Ghost is as real as taxes.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The point I'm making is doctrine needs to be biblically-based, not rooted in experiences or anecdotal evidence.

I agree, but you better watch that you don't end up being a Christian Bill Nye the Science guy. That starch can kill you more ways than one.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I have indeed seen and heard plenty of unbelievers either express how the church service scared them, Or that the reputation of my church was strange or crazy.

Wait!! In the quote just about this one who say you want it Biblically based and not rooted in EXPERIENCES and anecdotal evidence. Dude, that is what you are doing above! You have seen, you have heard. You then follow it with an untold number....PLENTY? Bro, but you said unbelievers, people who didn't believe in the place or god of what they were visiting? Girl went to a Roman Catholic church was scared of the stain glass and statues? So by that we are to detect whether it is truth or not? You ask for Biblical precedence in an argument then you resort to experiences or anecdotal evidence?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I'm not saying that everything I witnessed or experienced was phony, A lot of genuine and sincere things happened. I believe in miracles I believe in the supernatural. But if something is not biblical I'm not going to accept it hook line and sinker.

So, if DB's pastor comes into the service in his underwear, wrapped in a towel, holding a water basin? DB is cool with all of that.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

understand and agree in principle, but I don't think outsiders are going to say "those folks are crazy because they use pulpits and wireless microphones!

But if they footwash in their underwear then you will be the one to give them the Bible study?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I'm all for diversity in the Body.

Paul had a problem with that.

1 Corinthians 1:10, Galatians 1:8-9.

You went through an entire post telling us what YOU believe is sound Biblically. Only to put a bullet in its head with "I'm all for diversity in the Body?" That's a walking contradiction. That's the mantra sung by this culture which says that they are all for diversity in their country. Then complain when diversity bites them in the tail end. Confusion isn't even the word for someone who claims to want Biblical truths yet also wants heaven to be diverse! Maybe it would be best for you to find the definition of the word before you tell everyone else what is Biblically sound and how diversity is a good thing? Talk about an oxymoron.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

That's why I choose not to be a Pentecostal as an identity.

You never were a Pentecostal. Nothing to choose, nothing to loose.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

There will be plenty of Pentecostals in heaven. They just won't be he only ones.

DB, you are getting too old to be that bold concerning death.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Barb

Sorry about the sarcasm...couldn't help it.

Now, I never said anything about the whole body coming together and speaking in tongues being correct. If you go back and read my comments, I am saying just the opposite. As I understand this, Paul's letter was about the operation of the Gifts.

And like you, I have witnessed strange happenings, but unlike you, I am not willing to look at running and dancing with a skewed vision.

I respectfully disagree with this statement..."Pentecostal culture doesn't really advocate "decent and order" worship---the wilder, crazier, out of control it is---the more godly it is." That has never been my experience or understanding. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact.

Re my so called definition of order, I never meant to disparage anyone. Frankly, I kinda felt you were disparaging those who didn't agree with you. Forgive me if I misjudged you.

You are correct...it was Paul preaching like there was no tomorrow. I'm old...

In my experience, I have seen a few who were overcome with what is now called "holy laughter," and never once thought it odd. It was hit and miss, every now and then, and not the entire congregation carrying on. NOW the stuff that was going on in that holy laughter movement/phase from a few years ago...that is NOT what I have seen and heard in any Apostolic church.

As far as snake handlers go, I won't even comment on that.

Finally, DB, I agree that doctrine does indeed need to be biblically sound, but who is making worship/praise a doctrinal issue?

Life is all about choices. You choose not to be identified as a Pentecostal. That is your choice. On the other hand, unashamedly I stand and say I am Apostolic in doctrine and Pentecostal in experience. I make no apologies for my heritage and experiences.

We will agree to disagree here. As I posted the other day, "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation will suffice."

Hooray!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by CC1

This is an excellent post that reflects my perspective and attitude when questioning or disagreeing with things in old time Oneness Pentecost.

Any religious sect with doctrinal and cultural distinctives that set it apart from the larger body of believers in their overall belief system (OP's within Christianity as a whole) tend to be very reactionary to any questioning of their distinctives. Those doing so. in particular former members, are automatically ascribed to have ill movtives. They are "looking down on" or "mocking" in the minds of the sect members. It seems it can never be that they have honest differences in belief.

Now granted some present their differences in a offensive manner and many of you know that has been my complaint about some feelow "libs" on AFF. A lib being offensive is as offensive as a ultra con being so!

CC1 who abused you when you were Apostolic??? You're so bitter...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

CC1 who abused you when you were Apostolic??? You're so bitter...

You.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Let's see, he told a prophet to strip off sackcloth, shoes to go around naked Isaiah 20:2?

God told a king to disrobe and lay prostrate in front of a preacher?

1 Samuel 19:24

He tore off his clothes and lay naked on the ground all day and all night, prophesying in the presence of Samuel. The people who were watching exclaimed, "What? Is even Saul a prophet?"

DB, God told some prophets to do things which you would of shook a finger in God's face and said "not of God!"

Ever been to a foot washing with the preacher just wearing his underwear and wrapped only in a towel? John 13:4-5




Again, DB confession time.

Sorry that you were told that you were told you can smack that pastor's wife and kick holes in the wall as long as it was the "liberty" in the Holy Ghost.

No one ever told me that over a pulpit.




Again, the Jehovah Witness, LDS, Sedevacantist, and Fundamental Baptist say the same thing. Yet, they believe you are wrong, still you claim you stand on theological soundness. They all have there arguments, they all would debate you. Yet, not everything is sound. Running pews, around or over the backs of them in the Holy Ghost is as real as taxes.



I agree, but you better watch that you don't end up being a Christian Bill Nye the Science guy. That starch can kill you more ways than one.




Wait!! In the quote just about this one who say you want it Biblically based and not rooted in EXPERIENCES and anecdotal evidence. Dude, that is what you are doing above! You have seen, you have heard. You then follow it with an untold number....PLENTY? Bro, but you said unbelievers, people who didn't believe in the place or god of what they were visiting? Girl went to a Roman Catholic church was scared of the stain glass and statues? So by that we are to detect whether it is truth or not? You ask for Biblical precedence in an argument then you resort to experiences or anecdotal evidence?




So, if DB's pastor comes into the service in his underwear, wrapped in a towel, holding a water basin? DB is cool with all of that.




But if they footwash in their underwear then you will be the one to give them the Bible study?




Paul had a problem with that.

1 Corinthians 1:10, Galatians 1:8-9.

You went through an entire post telling us what YOU believe is sound Biblically. Only to put a bullet in its head with "I'm all for diversity in the Body?" That's a walking contradiction. That's the mantra sung by this culture which says that they are all for diversity in their country. Then complain when diversity bites them in the tail end. Confusion isn't even the word for someone who claims to want Biblical truths yet also wants heaven to be diverse! Maybe it would be best for you to find the definition of the word before you tell everyone else what is Biblically sound and how diversity is a good thing? Talk about an oxymoron.



You never were a Pentecostal. Nothing to choose, nothing to loose.



DB, you are getting too old to be that bold concerning death.

Nobody asked your opinion EB.

I know, I know, you offer it for free. 16,000 plus and counting.

We all await with bated breath your profound fulminations...

[deacon blues]

Also---"dryer" is an appliance. "Drier" is something that is lacking moisture. "Lose" rhymes with "ooze" and "loose" rhymes with "goose".

As Rush Limbaugh says in his ad for Verbal Advantage "People do judge you by the words you use."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Also---"dryer" is an appliance. "Drier" is something that is lacking moisture. "Lose" rhymes with "ooze" and "loose" rhymes with "goose".

As Rush Limbaugh says in his ad for Verbal Advantage "People do judge you by the words you use."

Who cried about ad hominem attacks?

Let me get EB on spelling, because he is right concerning everything else he posted.

You are 24kt gold DB.