Drunk in the Spirit

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Barb

Thank you for clarifying for me just what it is we do here on the forum.

Sarcasm noted.

Now as for I Corinthians 14, I don't believe for a second that Paul was "saying essentially 'we shouldn't be scaring off unbelievers among us causing them to leave our assemblies and say we are a bunch of mad, crazy weirdos.'"

I Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

I Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

It seems to me he is greatly concerned about the confusion that was generated in the Corinthian church. The theme was personal edification should be kept in private. Public edification requires more discipline and order if everyone is to benefit---believer and unbeliever alike.

I wonder if people who convulse, scream, run around, flailing their arms---do that do that in the privacy of their prayer closet when it's just Jesus and them? Or does that only occur when there are onlookers? I think private worship and devotion should be more passionate and demonstrative than public worship. A husband and wife experience far greater passion and intimacy in private than they do in public. Unless of course they want to gross everybody out or go to jail. There's something uncomfortable about public displays of affection that cross a line. Why would it be any different with God?

I have witnessed a lot of very beautiful, genuine, sincere worship and I've witnessed a lot of showing off and self promoting, egotistical, hyped up carnal displays of affection that are more about the worshiper than the object of worship. Sadly, I must admit, being a part of the subculture, I caved into the power of suggestion and the atmosphere that unless you were going hog wild you weren't really worshiping.

Once at Bible school I got caught up in the peer pressure to lose all control and so I participated---on the heels of a week of Mangun family preaching and teaching---AM, Vesta, and GA. When I finished, I walked away feeling convicted that what I had done wasn't glorifying God but just me wanting acceptance. God convicted me and said, "while all this is going on, who is telling the lost about me?" I found a secret corner in the building and spent the rest of the time interceding for my lost friends.

Pentecostal culture doesn't really advocate "decent and order" worship---the wilder, crazier, out of control it is---the more godly it is. In my opinion and experience.

I don't see that at all. What I do see is the elder teaching the saints about the Gifts of the Spirit and the operation of those Gifts. There is confusion at times, and I have been in services when the pastor had to bring it back to order. But that had nothing whatsoever to do with worship and praise being unbiblical.

Dancing a jig during the sermon, to the point of disrupting the Word from the Lord being heard is incorrect, and should be absolutely prevented and dealt with. Speaking in tongues during an interpretation of tongues is not correct...I saw this happen in a service with Bro. Anthony Mangun. The message was given, someone was giving the interpretation, and someone else began to speak on tongues...AM kindly stopped her, and said, "The Lord is speaking."

That is order.

So you too have a definition of order. It's okay for you to define biblical order in church but you disparage me for having an opinion on order.

I just want to be biblical. I find no biblical evidence for many of the things that occur in Pentecostal/Spirit-Filled/Charismatic church services. Again, Google "holy laughter" or watch some other videos of non-apostolic Pentecostals and you will see some crazy stuff. There's one video of a guy diving in headfirst fully clothed into a baptistry.

Here's the deal as I see it from my house...we are flesh, and everything we do is going to be in the flesh. It can't be helped, unless we are robots or ET, so in this emotional state called humanity it can very well be that someone just might take something, anything to the extreme. Peter preached so long that someone fell asleep and out of a window. But to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater is a mistake, in this old woman's opinion.

Actually it was Paul preaching when the young man fell out of the window. I agree with you with the idea that we worship in our flesh. This idea of "in the spirit" means we lose all self-control, become some kind of a puppet on a string for God to sling us around is not biblical. I also agree that human beings have a b I also agree that human beings have a bent towards excess. That is why it's important to disciple and teach new believers what the Bible says about public worship. Growing up the only instructions we got were that liberty in the Holy Ghost meant no restrictions. Of course the Bible doesn't teach that.

I know you wrote in an earlier post that "I don't care what you've seen or witnessed or experienced," but sorry...here is my experience from almost 65 years in and around the Apostolic Church...

I said that because you could go to a one God Jesus name apostolic Church in West Virginia, Kentucky, Georgia, or Alabama and witness people passing around venomous serpents and drinking poison out of mason jars and see that nothing happens to them and walk away concluding, if you're simply going to base it on what you saw with your own eyes and experiences, that their theology is sound.

The point I'm making is doctrine needs to be biblically-based, not rooted in experiences or anecdotal evidence.

Not ONE time have I seen anyone walk away and call us crazy or weird or too emotional...not ONE time. Now perhaps you have, but that has not been my experience.

I have indeed seen and heard plenty of unbelievers either express how the church service scared them, Or that the reputation of my church was strange or crazy.

My experience has allowed me to see the sinner or backslider convicted of their sins and find an altar of repentance. I saw a woman, whom I know personally, rise from her wheel chair completely healed of a broken back in a Pentecostal worship/praise service...no one laid hands on her. She just got up and danced before the Lord.

I'm not saying that everything I witnessed or experienced was phony, A lot of genuine and sincere things happened. I believe in miracles I believe in the supernatural. But if something is not biblical I'm not going to accept it hook line and sinker.

There are a lot of things church folks do, not just Pentecostals but Christendom in general, which are not biblical. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a preacher standing behind a "sacred desk," but they almost all do. I don't see Power Point and or wireless Lavalier mics in the Bible, but we use them nonetheless.

I understand and agree in principle, but I don't think outsiders are going to say "those folks are crazy because they use pulpits and wireless microphones!

You know, I think it was kinda cool of God not to leave us with a detailed list of do's and don'ts...He tried that with the Hebrews, and we all know how that turned out. Individuals follow their own personality and emotional make up...the story goes that back in the day, Bro. Norris told the folks, "You want to shout? We have 40 acres out back for that!" I personally think that was silly, but not crazy or weird enough to disqualify his ministry or actions as out of line. That was his conviction as the pastor. By the same token, I don't think a pastor is off the wall crazy or weird if they encourage dancing and shouting.

So DB, this is my humble opinion and the bottom line...if you don't like a demonstration of worship/praise, than by all means, sit tight and don't bite. But for those who do, that's their choice.

I'm all for diversity in the Body. That's why I choose not to be a Pentecostal as an identity. There will be plenty of Pentecostals in heaven. They just won't be he only ones.