A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yet i have Scriptural backing, and I'm just fulfilling the Great Commission the way that you yourself understand it. We read that there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ; and while one might debate whether that condemnation is incoming or outgoing, those who say "All Muslims are lost" have both bases covered; they condemn Muslims, or any Christians who disagree with them, etc, and i condemn them, for conforming to the world and trying to legitimize it with Christ.

So who is the troll? Those repeating gossip and slander against others, because that is all they have, or the guy saying "foul?" You decide.

You have no backing

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

So you say; yet Christ made it plain that He did not come to judge.

Mike, it has become plain to me that you really don't know Christ at all; can i lead you to Him?

Jesus said people are already judged. read all the bible.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You have no backing

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus said people are already judged. read all the bible.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

What i don't really get tho is i quote Christ and get shouted down by people who claim Jesus is God but quote Paul go figure

Wonderful, now he doesn't believe the writings of Paul are inspired by Christ.

Well, here is a quote just for you from the Apostle Peter.

2 Peter 3:15-16

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

exactly. so why do you expect a Muslim to feel any different? An unregenerate sinner demonstrates that they have not changed their mind, and generally displays the same mindset as everyone else, which in America might be described as dissing Muslims incoherently, and only shutting up when someone asks you what any Muslim has ever done to you--or Catholic, or whomever else is being condemned that day; just like most people all over the world do. "We have got it right, and everyone else, not so much."

So maybe we should refine the definition of "unregenerate sinner" here, because to me that = bigots who have found some isolated Scriptures to condemn other people with, which is what they were going to do anyway, but now they get to pretend that God said it. As you think, so are you, and you are free to sugar coat it with claims of channeling God all you like.

What i don't really get tho is i quote Christ and get shouted down by people who claim Jesus is God but quote Paul go figure

I don't place any expectations upon any Muslims. They, as all others, are free to live their own life as they see fit. But let us be honest about what a Muslim is. A Muslim is a member of the Islamic faith. The Islamic faith was founded by Muhammed. The main catechism of the Islamic faith is as follows:

"There is no god but Allah, and Muhammed is His prophet"

Devout Muslims practice the five pillars. The read and memorize the Qu'ran, their main sacred text. They also study the Hadiths and other Islamic writings.

Contained within these fundamentals, is a belief that Jesus, that is, Isa, is a great prophet and messenger of Allah. Isa is highly revered in Islamic tradition. He is even considered Messiah, and is expected to return to earth again in a Second Coming.

All of which would be wonderful except for one glaring problem. No Muslim if he or she wants to be taken seriously as a Muslim and accepted by his or her Islamic peers, will ever believe Isa died on a cross and that He is the Son of God/Allah. In college, I talked at length with a Muslim friend from Nigeria and the main stumblingblock and diving line was Jesus being the Son of God. She would not have it!

Therefore, the moment a Muslim believes those things about Isa, he or she is no longer a Muslim. Muhammed will be discarded as a false prophet, the Qu'ran will be relegated to the dust bin, and except for those who speak Arabic, Allah will be removed from the vocabulary and in its place, God will be adopted.

The faiths are mutually exclusive. Why in the world you can't or seemingly refuse to see that is beyond me.

You seem always ready to defend a Muslim while concurrently ready to smear a Christian. What's the deal?

I challenge you to watch this video to the end:

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

sir you don't even believe the bible. you've got a crossless bible.

i am the one suggesting that you pick that cross up, Mike, although i said that to make a different point.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You have no backing

without quoting Christ, you mean.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus said people are already judged. read all the bible.

ok, thanks, just doing my best here. Seems the problem with that argument is that 1) Christ is Named the Light in that passage, further emphasizing His spiritual nature, which is what must be understood in order to "accept Christ," and 2) Works are given here as the evidence. So yes, people who do evil--are judgemental, say--are judged (Judge not, lest you be judged).

19“This, then, is the judgment: The lightaq has come into the world,ar and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who practices wicked things hatesas the light and avoids it,at so that his deedsau may not be exposed. 21But anyone who lives byav the truth comes to the light, so that his worksaw may be shown to be accomplished by God.”ax

So, while i guess this is prolly frustrating for you, this passage also does not seem to be forwarding your opinion. I think you are going to be hard pressed to put Christ into your judgements; Christ is about forgiveness, even of the guilty. We get invited into condemnation of sin, or even what we perceive to be sin, not realizing that we lose Christ in the process.

This does not mean to condone sin, or indulge in sin, or allow sin in any way, but it does mean and require a change in focus. If anyone doubts this, just contemplate who it is that comes before God and mentions peoples' sins. satan is "the accuser," and he is who you follow when you are accusing. It is when you forgive that you are forgiven, over and above any spurious salvation experience that men may offer.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The faiths are mutually exclusive. Why in the world you can't or seemingly refuse to see that is beyond me.

quite simply because faith transcends religion, and an individual Muslim is free to come to the light, regardless of their dogma, just as a Christian is. I never meant to claim that Islam was any less retarded than what has become of Christianity; i agree that few find the path, regardless of their dogma.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You seem always ready to defend a Muslim while concurrently ready to smear a Christian. What's the deal?

i am a Christian, listening to wolves in sheep's clothing defending drone bombers with Scripture; what would you suggest i do? Christians are supposed to be the people who practice the gifts of the spirit. Muslims are just people, like Christians. We both know--or at least we both should know, that the labels mean only as much as the individual, and both labels are sorely abused. There is no condemnation in those who are in Christ.

"All Muslims are lost" becomes the engine that powers world conflict, for profit, and would be funny if it weren't so destructive; it is just so typical of the majority, any majority.

Instead of "Muslim/Christian" there, you could have as easily said "black/white" a hundred years ago, or "Communist/Free" fifty years ago. You are just carrying on the spirit of Jim Crow, and i am doing this because Christ is not, anywhere, evident in our accusations, but in our forgiveness. When you say "All Muslims are lost," you show that you are lost.

[shazeep]

as for the video, yes, i'm sure satan is influencing Islam too, and this should even be a clue that It is of God, otherwise why would satan be messing with it? I'm not too interested in individual cases, wadr; i'm sure this makes any Christian of a certain stripe feel more justified, but she hardly speaks for all Muslims. If she was in an evil situation, and used her feet, and went to a better one, then good for her. If you are trapped in a bad OP cult and need to do the same, we have videos for that too.