Truthfully...Do you believe in luck?

Now that's out of our systems (hopefully) let's look at this.

Why do bad things happen?

First, let's eliminate consequences of choices. So then, we have no need to blame God if you get drunk and mow down a parade of nuns. That was YOUR fault.

Also, if you die lost, who's fault is that? 'Ain't nobody's fault but mine...'

So, let's move on to things over which we as humans have no control.

How about the weather? Tornado rips through town, killing hundreds of innocent people.

Oh wait... are those people really 'innocent'? See, for the Christian, this is already a no-brainer... all have sinned, therefore there are no 'innocent' people (as far as 'accountable adults' goes, I'll get to the babies in a moment). 'We all deserve hell, but God in his grace...' etc. Well, if we all deserve hell, surely death by tornado strike is mild in comparison. We don't have any claims on God, so we can't DEMAND that God protect us from that F5.

And if a person is a Christian, and died in the tornado strike... well, they gave themselves over to Christ, they are not their own, they have surrendered their destiny to Christ, to do with as He sees fit. So again there are no rational complaints possible.

Now, about the babies. The babies are innocent, right? Therefore they don't deserve a tornado strike. Do they?

Does being innocent mean it is morally wrong for anything bad to happen to the person? Who would argue that?

Is it morally wrong for God not to intervene? Why?

Is God obligated to all children everywhere? Who created the obligation? Where's the fine print in the contract that creates that obligation?

Is God morally obligated by love for mankind to intervene and prevent any and all suffering or pain? Did God fail those hypothetical babies? Or any real babies who have died tragically?

Is death the end? Is it the worst thing that can happen to a person? Is all suffering bad for the soul?

If death is the end, then by all means God is guilty as charged. But then again, if death is the end, the final end, then there is no God worth worrying about.

Again, if morally innocent people (children, for example) are going to be given eternal life... then their death in the tornado seems more an act of mercy than anything else... God spared them the opportunity to SIN AND BE DAMNED, He spared them the opportunities to LEAD OTHERS INTO SIN. He spared them the opporunity to be possessed by selfishness to the extent they wind up ruining other people's lives...

And - perhaps most importantly - IF God is real, then we had better be about the business of re-aligning our judgements to be in step with His, rather than judging God for not being what we want Him to be.

And if God is NOT real, then who in tarnation cares one way or the other? Eat, drink, and be merry, cause it's all pointless anyway, in the ultimate scheme of things.

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Nope. God ain't real cause He doesn't make my life one big happy care bear episode, I guess. I been stumped and trumped!

I never said that I doubted if He is real, but I can honestly say that I do struggle with believing that He is good.

I was being sincere about my doubts and struggles, and God knows my thoughts whether I share them openly here or not. I spent years holding all my questions inside, and it accomplished nothing beyond making them fester and expand.

I truly believe that God prefers honest doubts over pretentious party-line parroting anyday. (Which is not to imply that I believe you are guilty of saying such, only that if I were to say the same things I would be)

Originally Posted by Timmy

Everyone does that. E.g., if you say "God is good", what do you mean?

I say 'God is good' because God demonstrates the definition of 'good' - He defines the term and it's moral meaning, and I find that His character matches that description.

I do not believe 'good' is some kind of independently existing standard that God has to measure up to, however. If it was, who set that standard?

And if 'good' is simply relative in all cases, then there is no basis upon which to judge anyone, except to say 'this or that doesn't meet MY criteria of what I believe is good so therefore it is bad - to me.'

Morality is relative - relative to God. But that's where the buck stops, imo.

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

You judge God by your own standards. He judges you by His. Who is right?

Originally Posted by Timmy

Everyone does that. E.g., if you say "God is good", what do you mean?

Timmy, I am totally having Deja Vu! Didn't we recently have a conversation about how God can do whatever He wants and it is considered good and right because he is God. But if we did the same things it could potentially bad and wrong because we are not.

(Either that or I have started having faux AFF debates in my dreams!! )

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Now that's out of our systems (hopefully) let's look at this.

Why do bad things happen?

First, let's eliminate consequences of choices. So then, we have no need to blame God if you get drunk and mow down a parade of nuns. That was YOUR fault.

Also, if you die lost, who's fault is that? 'Ain't nobody's fault but mine...'

So, let's move on to things over which we as humans have no control.

How about the weather? Tornado rips through town, killing hundreds of innocent people.

Oh wait... are those people really 'innocent'? See, for the Christian, this is alrgely a no-brainer... all have sinned, therefore there are no 'innocent' people (as far as 'accountable adults' goes, I'll get to the babies in a moment). 'We all deserve hell, but God in his grace...' etc. Well, if we all deserve hell, surely death by tornado strike is mild in comparison. We don't have any claims on God, so we can't DEMAND that God protect us from that F5.

And if a person is a Christian, and died in the tornado strike... well, they gave themselves over to Christ, they are not their own, they have surrendered their destiny to Christ, to do with as He sees fit. So again there are rational complaints possible.

Now, about the babies. The babies are innocent, right? Therefore they don't deserve a tornado strike. Do they?

Does being innocent mean it is morally wrong for anything bad to happen to the person? Who would argue that?

Is it morally wrong for God not to intervene? Why?

Is God obligated to all children everywhere? Who created the obligation? Where's the fine print in the contract that creates that obligation?

Is God morally obligated by love for mankind to intervene and prevent any and all suffering or pain? Did God fail those hypothetical babies? Or any real babies who have died tragically?

Is death the end? Is it the worst thing that can happen to a person? Is all suffering bad for the soul?

If death is the end, then by all means God is guilty as charged. But then again, if death is the end, the final end, then there is no God worth worrying about.

Again, if morally innocent people (children, for example) are going to be given eternal life... then their death in the tornado seems more an act of mercy than anything else... God spared them the opportunity to SIN AND BE DAMNED, He spared them the opportunities to LEAD OTHERS INTO SIN. He spared them the opporunity to be possessed by selfishness to the extent they wind up ruining other people's lives...

And - perhaps most importantly - IF God is real, then we had better be about the business of re-aligning our judgements to be in step with His, rather than judging God for not being what we want Him to be.

And if God is NOT real, then who in tarnation cares one way or the other? Eat, drink, and be merry, cause it's all pointless anyway, in the ultimate scheme of things.

Eli ~

I will take pity on you and save you a whole bunch of time and effort. I can't speak for Timmy, only for myself. But you are working under a bunch of assumptions that you think are self-evident to all Christians, i.e. that God is good, in the inerrancy of the Scription, in the belief that mankind is innate sinful. But they are not self-evident to me.

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

I never said that I doubted if He is real, but I can honestly say that I do struggle with believing that He is good.

I was being sincere about my doubts and struggles, and God knows my thoughts whether I share them openly here or not. I spent years holding all my questions inside, and it accomplished nothing beyond making them fester and expand.

I truly believe that God prefers honest doubts over pretentious party-line parroting anyday. (Which is not to imply that I believe you are guilty of saying such, only that if I were to say the same things I would be)

There's nothing wrong with a) believing God exists and yet b)doubting whether he is good or not.

But one would need to move beyond merely doubting, to getting those doubts resolved one way or the other, I would think.

You are not sure God is good. Okay. What is good? And who defines what is good? And by what authority? And why SHOULD God be 'good' according to whatever the chosen definition happens to be?

I use to believe in God, and I used to believe he was NOT 'good'. I believed that God was basically a tyrant who exploited people's inherent weaknesses to garner their support. (Of course, I did not believe God was a 'personal being' as most Christians understand Him, tho...)

As a result, I concluded that whatever God wanted, must also not be good.

So when God said 'be honest' I concluded that was a scam sold to the weak to keep them from getting ahead of others.

When God said 'be humble' that was another scam designed to keep people in slavery to others who held power over them.

In short, I followed what was 'good' to me, which was 'bad' to God...

Needless to say, my life was a wreck as a result.

But, something happened along the way...

I came to believe not only that God existed, but that He was as described by the Bible. As a result, I recognised my obligation to Him, as one of His creation... I recognised my obligations to Him as King of the Universe... And I recognised the offer He was making me - pardon for waging war against Him in my life.

I took it.

I basically realigned my priorities. I was no longer concerned with proving 'God is good' but now I was concerned with finding out 'how does God define good, that I may do it?'

(I probably fumbled trying to express what I am trying to say, hopefully I got it across, though...)

BTW, I used to have panic attacks too... they included audible and visual hallucinations as well... but I was delivered one night by the Lord, and haven't had them since.

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

Eli ~

I will take pity on you and save you a whole bunch of time and effort. I can't speak for Timmy, only for myself. But you are working under a bunch of assumptions that you think are self-evident to all Christians, i.e. that God is good, in the inerrancy of the Scription, in the belief that mankind is innate sinful. But they are not self-evident to me.

Don't need your pity. I fully understand you do not have the presuppositions and assumptions that I do.

But neither do I have the presuppositions and assumptions that YOU do. That God is possibly not good, that the Scriptures contain errors, that mankind is universally sinful (not 'innately' because mankind is not innately sinful and the Bible doesn't teach that. See the 'Could Jesus Sin?' thread). What seems self evident to you is not necessarily self evident to me, and vice versa. I understand that.

Which is why I ended my post with this:

And - perhaps most importantly - IF God is real, then we had better be about the business of re-aligning our judgements to be in step with His, rather than judging God for not being what we want Him to be.

And if God is NOT real, then who in tarnation cares one way or the other? Eat, drink, and be merry, cause it's all pointless anyway, in the ultimate scheme of things.

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

There's nothing wrong with a) believing God exists and yet b)doubting whether he is good or not.

But one would need to move beyond merely doubting, to getting those doubts resolved one way or the other, I would think.

You are not sure God is good. Okay. What is good? And who defines what is good? And by what authority? And why SHOULD God be 'good' according to whatever the chosen definition happens to be?

I use to believe in God, and I used to believe he was NOT 'good'. I believed that God was basically a tyrant who exploited people's inherent weaknesses to garner their support. (Of course, I did not believe God was a 'personal being' as most Christians understand Him, tho...)

As a result, I concluded that whatever God wanted, must also not be good.

So when God said 'be honest' I concluded that was a scam sold to the weak to keep them from getting ahead of others.

When God said 'be humble' that was another scam designed to keep people in slavery to others who held power over them.

In short, I followed what was 'good' to me, which was 'bad' to God...

Needless to say, my life was a wreck as a result.

But, something happened along the way...

I came to believe not only that God existed, but that He was as described by the Bible. As a result, I recognised my obligation to Him, as one of His creation... I recognised my obligations to Him as King of the Universe... And I recognised the offer He was making me - pardon for waging war aginst Him in my life.

I took it.

I basically realigned my priorities. I was no longer concerned with proving 'God is good' but now I was concerned with finding out 'how does God define good, that I may do it?'

(I probably fumbled trying to express what I am trying to say, hopefully I got it across, though...)

BTW, I used to have panic attacks to... they included audible and visual hallucinations as well... but I was delivered one night by the Lord, and haven't had them since.

I don't want to bore the rest of the forum with my story for the millionth time, so I will give you the short version. If you are the poster former known as Elias or Isais or something like that, you may remember me under my previous user name "Michlow", anyway here is my story in as few words as I can muster.

Didn't know God. Was shown a God of fear and Judgement, whose approval must be earned through constant vigilance and works. Came to the realization that either God was either bad and worthy of rejection, or as hence unknown. Spent most of a year angry and not wanting much to do with religious things. Began a new journey....

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

Timmy, I am totally having Deja Vu! Didn't we recently have a conversation about how God can do whatever He wants and it is considered good and right because he is God. But if we did the same things it could potentially bad and wrong because we are not.

(Either that or I have started having faux AFF debates in my dreams!! )

You thinking of Does God ever make exceptions?

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Don't need your pity. I fully understand you do not have the presuppositions and assumptions that I do.

But neither do I have the presuppositions and assumptions that YOU do. That God is possibly not good, that the Scriptures contain errors, that mankind is universally sinful (not 'innately' because mankind is not innately sinful and the Bible doesn't teach that. See the 'Could Jesus Sin?' thread). What seems self evident to you is not necessarily self evident to me, and vice versa. I understand that.

Which is why I ended my post with this:

And - perhaps most importantly - IF God is real, then we had better be about the business of re-aligning our judgements to be in step with His, rather than judging God for not being what we want Him to be.

And if God is NOT real, then who in tarnation cares one way or the other? Eat, drink, and be merry, cause it's all pointless anyway, in the ultimate scheme of things.

I can't argue with your statement. However, I feel like I spent an inordinate amount of time demanding the right to walk my journey at my own pace. (Again, not implying you, just in general)