George Glass Sr/Response- "Mystery Solved" Thread

[Blubayou]

I always enjoy being a bystander on these conversations. Carry on!

[mizpeh]

Sure would be nice if we had some solid proof.

Speculation and theory and hearsay....blah, blah, blah, blah.

[rgcraig]

Not sure we need proof - one can believe what they want in their own hearts and minds.

One thing that we do have proof for is GLGSR was one of the greatest men of our lifetime.

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I confess I never knew Elder Glass nor heard him preach there were some circumstances that placed him into a different circle other than organizational and the "PCI" whatever. But Tim it is odd to me that many preachers out from under him and influenced by him are strong new birth Acts 2:38 guys. I confess I heard from Elder Burr's own mouth what is quoted. I don't know if it was a fact or suspicion by association? Elder D. Gray was PCI but believed the new birth maybe stronger in his latter years than his former and could that be the same of Elder Glass could both be correct that either he became stronger or weaker?
But his ministry strongly advocating the Acts 2:38 is NO solace to those who want to calim him that preach rarely if ever the Acts 2:38 message. Elder Gurley did NOT preach Acts 2:38 in a private class if you asked for it. Their preaching of repentance was not repeating the sinner's prayer and accepting Jesus in your heart. And everyone on here knows that. These folks who want to wear the "PCI" badge today would not be comfortable in those PCI meetings of yesteryear. That is a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it is an injustice to the memory of those men who I think were in error
to marginalize their emphasis on Acts 2:38 which dsitinquished them from their friends in the AG & CoG they left behind. John Patterson a PCI minded man wrote one of the greatest books on the Godhead & Baptism in Jesus Name. He did not feel like I do and never did but the PAoC thought him to be extreme because of his stand for the message. It is unfair to Gurley and yes even Yadon who would have been the weakest yet spent the majority of his preaching life preaching his emphasison Acts 2:38.
Get ready aim fire BUT remember I have been in a couple of debates myself and like you I enjoy it.

Oh.

Something else I just thought of with regard to what I bolded.

H. L. Bennett was obviously "PCI" in his views and I think if you could find any of his disciples around, they would confirm this.

One of them is Jerry Gilland.

He was a good friend of mine and preached me when I was a young evangelist and he pastored in Lander, Wyoming.

I have no idea if he's still alive, still lives around DeQuincy or what. He pastored in Simmesport, La. for a time after he left Wyoming and I preached for him there.

Anyone who knows Gilland knows he is VERY conservative. In fact, he would have fit better in the AMF.

But no one loved H. L. Bennett more.

So yes ... sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree when it comes to mentors' disciples when they mature.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Not sure we need proof - one can believe what they want in their own hearts and minds.

One thing that we do have proof for is GLGSR was one of the greatest men of our lifetime.

I'd rather believe the truth.

[Pastor G]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Pianoman may be backing down from this but I'm not.

I felt obligated to respond to Pianoman's thread speculating of George Glass Sr.'s soteriological views since I started the "George Glass Sr. Was PCI" thread on NFCF. That thread of course is beneath the waves with the rest of NFCF.

I don't want to try to recreate that thread here but since some misinformed folks think they've slammed the door on any evidence that GGSR may have been "PCI" in his thinking, I must repeat some material.

That was a great thread; some 1500 posts long filled with much valuable information and civil discourse. Ferd, who was close to GGSR, might not have agreed with all of my conclusions but still contributed much valuable information and acknowledged the substance of my theory.

I never said my conclusions drawn on that thread were anything but a very plausible theory.

However Pastor G responds in typical "ole time pentecostal" fashion when confronted with material he doesn't personally like or doesn't quite conform with his worldview: he ratchets up the emotion and accuses Pianoman and others of being character assassins and/or the infantile assertion that "one-steppers" are trying to claim GGSR as one of their own as if this will bolster their position.

You were GGSR's nephew, Pastor G?

Fine. I respect that.

Not that it makes any difference but I was family too and sat in many living room gatherings with Papa George.

Now, you blow your own first argument to smithereens in that you have a monopoly and exclusive insight into GGSR's mind and heart since you were hs nephew.

Now, if your argument has any merit at all, then logically we should believe you because you were close blood kin.

Fine. Then that means we should put more credence into the words of his own son, shouldn't we? And yes, I've had a couple long talks on this subject with George L (George Lafayette Glass, Jr., to the uninitiated.)

Now if not ... why not? I assure you, he feels a bit differently on the subject than you do.

You also claim you have some of Papa George's sermon notes. I don't doubt that you do and that's a wonderful treasure. That fact led a couple of your little cheerleaders to crow: "case closed!" on the "Mystery Solved" thread.

I tell you what, Pastor G ... I eagerly awaited for you to elaborate on just EXACTLY what those notes said. You never did.

Do you have some of Papa George's sermon notes that said: "I believe anyone who doesn't speak in tongues is going to hell"?

Tell you what ... why don't you scan those notes and then post them up here where we can judge for ourselves what you are drawing your conclusions on?

Pastor G, you don't have ALL of GGSR's preaching notes. Nor do you have the only Bible he preached out of; if you have any at all.

I'll refer SPECIFICALLY to some more of his notes that you do NOT have at the end of this post. I assure you, they are quite relevant to this discussion.

You said the actions of Renda and Pianoman on the "Mystery Solved" thread were "deplorable."

Hmm ... sounds like RRFord when he gets flustered and frustrated - only he uses the word "asinine" as a blanket-catchall when he can't back up his views or assertions with substance.

But I digress.

I'm going to tell you frankly, sir. There were people who posted on that thread who loved Papa George and were close to him and have not only every right but also have substance to back up how they may feel about what he believed.

I respect that you are his nephew but you have no exclusive monopoly on Papa George's heart and mind and what I find "deplorable" is your accusations that well meaning and goodhearted posters on that thread are character assassins trying to smear a man dead for 18 years.

Now ... let's get to some substance as to why I posted my original theory that George Glass Sr. was PCI in his soteriological views.

Much of the prime of GGSR's ministry was spent in Hohenwald, Tennessee, a bastion of PCI thought. There is no evidence that Papa George saw himself as a missionary to those "weak on the message" and as one who preached in many churches in northeast Mississippi and southwest Tennessee I can tell you the radicals were quick to point out those like Cecil Bennett and A. D. Gurley whom they labeled "weak on the message."

GGSR did more than merely tolerate Greer, Gurley, Hansford, Hardwick and other PCI stalwarts; he was a fully cooperating member of the Tennessee
District and was a favorite campmeeting and conference speaker. He did more than just fellowship PCI men over a cup of coffee in a restaurant.

Papa George always fit more the pattern and profile of the "kind old gentlemen of grace" in the PCI tradition and heritage of the UPC; men like C. H. Yadon, Peter Shebley and Howard Goss.

He brought much balance during the early eighties in the Louisiana District when the "fad" was to see who could be the most hardshell and the young bucks like Tommy Tenney and Mike Chance were trying to "outholy" one another. While balance, grace and charity were a fad to some, they were a lifestyle to Papa George.

(Continued in Next Post)

I adressed each paragraph under each paragraph and when I pushed submit, it all went away...

So I will do it as I can this way...

First of all... I am not misinformed on the beliefs of GGSR. And the thread I responded to said, "Mystery Solved." I might not have been so gung ho in my responses, had the title presented an opinion rather than a suppossed fact...

I believe my points were clear in that I do know what I am talking about... I wasn't aware you are family too... I don't believe I ever saw you at a family reunion... Not doubting it, but how are you kin?

I was glad to see you respected me as a nephew, but then you said it didn't matter... O well...

I never said I had a monopoly on GGSR.'s heart and mind, but I do know what he has spoken to me...

And in reference to GGJr. I will not discuss my family with you or anyone else on here, nor will I allow you or anyone else to pin us against one another...

As to Papa Georges notes... You say you don't doubt that I have some of them, then in another paragraph you say, "if I do." Well it really doean't matter what you believe, I do have many of them...

One thing I don't get though... I never said he has ever said out loud or in his notes, the statement, "you will go to hell without speaking in tongues." You guys put so much weight on this statement or non-statement... I am a 3 stepper just like Papa George and his two preahing brothers and I have never said you would go to hell without speaking in tongues either... In fact most of the 3 steppers I know don't say that... Maybe you guys hang out with different guys... And as I stated in the other thread, Papa George never condemned anyone to hell period... He was of the thought, I know because he told me more than once, we are not God and not the judge so we have no right to put anyone in hell... But for someone to mistake statements like that to him being a 1 stepper is silly, IMO...

Papa George loved the UPC, again I know because he spoke to me of it... And for someone to question his loyalty to the beliefs of the organization he loved and died in 18 years after his death, when he doesn't have a chance to speak for himself, as fact, remember "Mystery Solved." Is IMO deplorable...
Oh and I never referred to Rhenda... In fact Rhenda and I were PMing back and forth while I was posting... I knew he was her pastor from years gone by... And she says he was a 3 stepper too...

Joel said "Mystery Solved" meaning Papa George was a 1 stepper then said it was just his opinion and that he assumed from what he was told... You say it just your theory... Yet you both speak as though his opinion and your theory are facts...

Papa George loved the guys you mentioned and did more than tolerate them as did many 3 step UPC preachers...

He certainly was a gentleman of grace and a very balanced man... Grace and charity were indeed his lifestyle... Not too many have come up to his level...


I will speak of the other post when I can take time to do so, i am sure tonight... So perhaps you might wait to respond so you can just call me a liar and whatever else until I respond to that... That way you can do it in all one post...

[Pastor G]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

(Continued From Previous Post)

While some "historians" would lump GGSR in with other radicals, he was NEVER considered right-wing or even mainline Louisiana UPC in the same sense that some of his peers like A. L. O'Brian and even G. A. Mangun were.

John Wilkins said "George Glass Sr. was a pillar of the old Glass/Caughron liberal wing of the Louisiana District." Now, Wilkins said this in the context of saying that T. F. Tenney, who GGSR mentored, was a "liberal."

Wilkins was pompous and frankly I think a bit unbalanced since his plane crash but he was astute and observant as far as knowing where the bodies were buried in the Louisiana District and here I think he was quite accurate.

Now ... let's look at how some of his peers viewed GGSR's soteriological views. These run the gamut from ultraliberal to archconservative.

I am referring here to "Christianity Without The Cross" - page 166. Thomas Fudge's many interviews with first and second generation UPC history makers and shapers are invaluable.

Here is the most pertinent statement on this thread and in this discussion.

Fudge says:

Howard Goss did not preach the UPC distinctives. He did not stress Acts 2: 38. Other well known Oneness figures likewise may not have held to this idea but their literary legacy leaves few clues and their disciples present conflicting evidence."


CWTC p. 106

This is footnoted as follows: (any bold in green is mine)

************************************************** ********

Examples would be George Glass, Sr., long-time Louisiana pastor. According to T. F. Tenney, Glass was strong on the Acts 2: 38 message, adopting a view closer to that of the PAJC than the stereotypical PCI position. T. F. Tenney interview, 20 April 1999, Tioga, La.

Others state that Glass did not admit any association between John 3.5 and Acts 2.38 but saw no point in contending for his views. Roy Gerald interview, 23 April 1999, St. Louis Missouri.



Tenney confirmed this, noting he and Glass did not agree.

So ... even Tom Fred Tenney admits that GGSR did NOT equate the "birth of water" in John 3.5 with water baptism in Acts 2.38. Now that is significant but that alone would not a plausible theory make. More to come though ...

A. D. Van Hoose recalls preaching against an equation between Acts 2.38 and the new birth in the 1940s in Port Arthur, Texas and being congratulated by Howard Goss and George Glass. A. D. Van Hoose interview, 31 August, 2000, Evansville, Indiana.

"George Glass was more liberal than conservative on the new birth." - Murray Burr interview, 13 January 2001. Junction, Texas.

Now Burr was the king of the archconservative intellectuals. He had a mind like a steel trap and believe me, just like the radicals in northern Mississippi and even more so - the radicals in Louisiana and Texas, Burr chief among them, could smell out a preacher who didn't conform to their views on salvation or "standards" like a prize-winning Catahoula cur on a fresh trail.

(H. L. Bennett of DeQuincy was another labeled as "weak on the message" and like Papa George, he also had a Tennessee and PCI connection. He was not the prominent preacher GGSR was so was more vulnerable to the salvoes.)

But I believe that Burr was right on in his views of GGSR's views on salvation.

"I know T. F. Tenney privately holds PCI philosophy as did his mentor, George Glass, Sr. whom I also knew. Correspondence from Loren Yadon, 28 April 2000.

I knew Loren Yadon well and those acquainted with him know that no one worked more closely with TFT for a period of years. While this material may disturb some and some may not agree, these are definite statements from credible sources from liberal to arch-conservative and they can NOT just be swept under the rug or dismissed with empty assertions.

William E. Gamblin told David F. Gray that Glass was not very strong on the new birth - David S. Gray interview, 7 January 2001.

Uh ... no Pastor G. I assure you that Reformed Dave doesn't belong in the "cheap seats" like you asserted.



************************************************** ********

Now to conclude this; back to Papa George's sermon notes.

I don't doubt Pastor G has some and that's a great treasure.

However, George Glass Sr.'s Bible is in the George Glass Sr. Memorial cabin in Tioga, La.

I've seen it and I'm sure many others have.

His Bible is open to Acts 2-4 and near the text of Acts 2: 38 is the marginal note: "the plan of salvation."

Papa George had noted sermons preached by ministers on Acts 2 and 3.

What's pertinent to my theory?

The preachers he notes are men like W. M. Greer - L. H. Benson and M. H. Hansford.

AND .... these men are undoubtedly from the PCI tradition that believed salvation was at repentance and gave the UPC a link with mainline Christianity from the very beginning.

So ... I believe the theory I espoused (and I emphasize only theory) is a sound one that cannot just be flippantly dismissed as Pastor G attempted on the "Mystery Solved" thread.

While some may feel they have "backslid", I feel that George L. Jr. and George Lee are simply preaching and espousing their heritage - and in preaching a message of grace without extrabiblical legalism they are simply logically progressing from what their father and grandfather - one of the finest men who ever walked the earth - believed in his heart of hearts.

I haven't read the book you refer to... I can't question most of the people listed for obvious reasons, but I will question Bro. Tenney about his so-called quotes... But again these quotes are opinions... If it raises a question in your or PM's mind ok, but it doesn't raise one in mine... For I know what he has told me when he was alive and what is said of the plan of salvation in the notes I have of his... What his brothers say, what his last pastor says and more... Discount it all you want to, for whatever reason you have... But I say, I know the truth first hand... Not from something I read or heard, but from him.

As far as the comment to Reformed Dave... I believe you will find a smiley face beside my words...

Oh and I do have one of his preaching Bibles too... La. does not have the only one... It is a treasure and he has marked it up greatly...

As far as flippantly dismissing an opinion that is mentioned in the title as, "Mystery Solved," meaning I have the facts... Yes I certainly do totally dismiss it... I take my stance from his notes and from what he spoke in the pulpit in our church and what he spoke to me as a boy on up into a man... When what your opinion or theory is, is contrary to what I know from him, I will dismiss it every time...

You called me out, but I have tried to be a gentleman... Don't build a theory that I am weak or intimidated because of it...

[ReformedDave]

Pastor G, just one comment and you can take it with a grain of salt. I was present when Gamblin told my father that he(Gamblin) asked GG if one needed to receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues to be saved and GG reportedly said "Why would one want to go to heaven without it?" According to Gamblin a clear answer could not be elicited. BTW, this purportedly happened in a private conversation and not publicly.

Could these two men have been talking past each other? Sure. But it does make one wonder.

[mizpeh]

Pastor G, what did your uncle say to you about salvation?

[Pastor G]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Pastor G, just one comment and you can take it with a grain of salt. I was present when Gamblin told my father that he(Gamblin) asked GG if one needed to receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues to be saved and GG reportedly said "Why would one want to go to heaven without it?" According to Gamblin a clear answer could not be elicited. BTW, this purportedly happened in a private conversation and not publicly.

Could these two men have been talking past each other? Sure. But it does make one wonder.

I understand that some of the things that have been repeated, that he said, might cause someone to wonder on some things.... I also believe that if you go looking for questions you will find them... I am not saying that you are doing that... I don't know you (that I know of) or your beliefs...

But from him ending services at our church with the plan of salvation being Acts 2:38... From being in DeRidder at services where he ended the same way... From him waking me up several mornings in our house when just a boy, asking me quote Acts 2:38 and tell him what it meant and then him saying, "that's my boy." And from his notes that I have... I just don't go looking for things that make me go hmmmmmm... I am satisfied with what I know....

This last paragraph was in response to the post after yours...

And btw, there was a goofy face when I made the comment I made to you on the other thread.... I thought those were there to use when inferring kidding was taking place...