George Glass Sr/Response- "Mystery Solved" Thread

[deltaguitar]

Wow, nice post. I grew up UPC but never understood or knew much about the history or characters.

[Steve Epley]

I confess I never knew Elder Glass nor heard him preach there were some circumstances that placed him into a different circle other than organizational and the "PCI" whatever. But Tim it is odd to me that many preachers out from under him and influenced by him are strong new birth Acts 2:38 guys. I confess I heard from Elder Burr's own mouth what is quoted. I don't know if it was a fact or suspicion by association? Elder D. Gray was PCI but believed the new birth maybe stronger in his latter years than his former and could that be the same of Elder Glass could both be correct that either he became stronger or weaker?
But his ministry strongly advocating the Acts 2:38 is NO solace to those who want to calim him that preach rarely if ever the Acts 2:38 message. Elder Gurley did NOT preach Acts 2:38 in a private class if you asked for it. Their preaching of repentance was not repeating the sinner's prayer and accepting Jesus in your heart. And everyone on here knows that. These folks who want to wear the "PCI" badge today would not be comfortable in those PCI meetings of yesteryear. That is a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it is an injustice to the memory of those men who I think were in error
to marginalize their emphasis on Acts 2:38 which dsitinquished them from their friends in the AG & CoG they left behind. John Patterson a PCI minded man wrote one of the greatest books on the Godhead & Baptism in Jesus Name. He did not feel like I do and never did but the PAoC thought him to be extreme because of his stand for the message. It is unfair to Gurley and yes even Yadon who would have been the weakest yet spent the majority of his preaching life preaching his emphasison Acts 2:38.
Get ready aim fire BUT remember I have been in a couple of debates myself and like you I enjoy it.

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I confess I never knew Elder Glass nor heard him preach there were some circumstances that placed him into a different circle other than organizational and the "PCI" whatever. But Tim it is odd to me that many preachers out from under him and influenced by him are strong new birth Acts 2:38 guys. I confess I heard from Elder Burr's own mouth what is quoted. I don't know if it was a fact or suspicion by association? Elder D. Gray was PCI but believed the new birth maybe stronger in his latter years than his former and could that be the same of Elder Glass could both be correct that either he became stronger or weaker?
But his ministry strongly advocating the Acts 2:38 is NO solace to those who want to calim him that preach rarely if ever the Acts 2:38 message. Elder Gurley did NOT preach Acts 2:38 in a private class if you asked for it. Their preaching of repentance was not repeating the sinner's prayer and accepting Jesus in your heart. And everyone on here knows that. These folks who want to wear the "PCI" badge today would not be comfortable in those PCI meetings of yesteryear. That is a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it is an injustice to the memory of those men who I think were in error
to marginalize their emphasis on Acts 2:38 which dsitinquished them from their friends in the AG & CoG they left behind. John Patterson a PCI minded man wrote one of the greatest books on the Godhead & Baptism in Jesus Name. He did not feel like I do and never did but the PAoC thought him to be extreme because of his stand for the message. It is unfair to Gurley and yes even Yadon who would have been the weakest yet spent the majority of his preaching life preaching his emphasison Acts 2:38.
Get ready aim fire BUT remember I have been in a couple of debates myself and like you I enjoy it.

Brother Epley, my response is not "debating" as much as just responding off the cuff to your posts as the thoughts hit me. I can endure typing only so many "structured" posts in one night and so this is very unstructured.

I acknowledge we are both old debaters and thus we're thick skinned and could get after each other really well and not be offended.

But no, I'm not looking at responding to your post as a "debate."

Hmmm ... have you really thought through the consequences of your statement that GGSR's disciples were strong water/spirit men?

Who was the best known disciple of George Glass Sr.?

Uh ... T. F. Tenney.

Do YOU consider Tenney a "strong water spirit man"?

Do the men you run with (and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way) feel that way - T. F. Tenney ... who preaches in Baptist and Charismatic churches and who collaborates and will not renounce his son Tommy?

Be interesting to hear your answer.

You say that John Paterson wrote one of the greatest books on Jesus Name Baptism ever written.

Incidentally, John Paterson was another experienced Oneness debater who debated Guy Woods and I daresay did much better against him than Marvin Hicks did.

You probably knew that but many reading didn't, I'm sure.

Did you know that John Paterson wrote to N. A. Urshan that equating John 3.5's "birth of the water" with water baptism was "Romish" and "Popish"?

He kinda sounds like Dan Alicea there, doesn't he?

That leads to this: I must respectfully take issue with your statement that the old PCI tradition was shoutin', jumpin, and southern-white-bread Pentecostal.

It was NOT.

Take it from one who cut his ministerial teeth in Louisiana and was influenced by Treece and Ewing and then ventured to Idaho.

It was a TOTALLY different culture and atmosphere in church services.

You didn't have to go to the Northwest. A visit to A. D. Gurley's old church in Corinth, Ms. proved the same thing.

So I don't quite buy this argument that others would not feel at home in old PCI meetings.

I admit it was more of a geographical thing than a spiritual one, perhaps.

Now ... back to your assertion that GGSR's disciples were strong water/spirit men.

I could take the obvious tack and point out his own son and grandson but that would be too easy and perhaps not fair.

So ... for the sake of argument, let me just concede (only on this post) that George Jr. and George Lee "backslid" and that is why they are more liberal in their salvation theology and they are not valid.

Well .... let's look at Clyde Haney.

It is an established fact that he was influenced greatly by Harry Morse and his Bible school - the same that C. H. Yadon and Ruby Martin and many other pioneers and apostles in the Pacific Northwest were influenced by.

The old Western Apostolic Bible College had a freedom of thought where healthy discussions over Acts 2.38, the place of water baptism and the plan of salvation were freely discussed in the dorms.

Kenneth Haney admitted that was the case and said "that would not happen" at CLC today.

Why do sons sometimes change?

Seeing which way the political winds are blowing, perhaps?

Now I'm not afraid to say that and I know you would not be either Brother Epley, but many who read this could never admit that to themselves.

Any of you westerners are welcome to weigh in here on my views of Clyde Haney.

Now here's a question I'd like to ask all you people:

Were those at Azusa Street and Stone's Folly and other early "pentecostal" meetings pure, rank sinners from the pool halls and dens of iniquity?

Uh ... no.

They were so-called "Christians" weren't they?

They read in their Bibles about tongues-speaking and decided to seek it.

(Now, I'm not touching at all on the validity of their experience even though I still am amused at one lady who was quoted at Topeka as saying she was called to Africa since she spoke "The language of Africa" as if there was one language of Africa and not Swahili, Zulu, Zhosa, etc. etc.)

Here's my point:

Can ANYONE come up with ANY documented material that these Christians who received Holy Ghost Baptism in modern Pentecostalism's infancy at Topeka or Azusa street said:

"We then realized we were previously lost because we had not spoken in tongues."

Uh ... I don't think so.

I think you'll find historical evidence bears out there was no question they believed they were saved BEFORE they spoke in tongues and THAT is the history and heritage of modern day pentecostalism and more radical positions evolved later in the century.

I've never heard anyone really deal with that.

I'm sure I've forgotten something but my mind is in neutral.

Thanks for your response, Brother Epley.

I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

[Apocrypha]

nice

[Esther]

Tim I would love to see you write some history of the Pentecost as you know it.

Always enjoy reading your post.

[Steve Epley]

I hear K. Phillips say that Elder Glass was his mentor and though his stand on outward standards is nil he yet preaches Acts 2:38 is the new birth? Was Elder Glass his pastor or just someone he looked up to? I don't know?
I concede I doubt that TFT believes the new birth. So on this we agree was it from Elder Glass I don't know?
I quoted John Patterson because I know he was 'weak' on the message however his works on the Godhead and Baptism madehim stand out in Canada. He answers Brumback in his book on baptism. Where Brumback paints him weak on repentance and paints him Popish on baptism. His weakness was known by those who knew him personally not his preaching itself.
My comments on the PCI then and their decendents today they were strong Acts 2:38 preachers whereas their decendents invitations reminds you of being at Baptist meeting I have been there. Teaching Acts 2:38 in a private class I have the history of the First Church at Corinth their 75 year record. Yes they believed folks were saved at repentance but baptism and the HGB were not seen as negociable. Elder Gurley made his mark preaching Acts 2:38.
His spiritual sons it's not a big deal. DEven the Yadons who would have been the weakest built their minstries preaching Acts 2:38.
The split from Azusa that became the church that recieved Durham's message
and became Ewart's work did teach tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost and folks were lost without it. The grandson of the pastor who followed Ewart is on CAF and if I can I will try to get him to post over here about the history of that group. However I agree the most did not.
As always good to spar with you.

[ReformedDave]

Tim, according to my 'sources' you've got the Clyde Haney- WABC issue correctly. It's really too bad that Olive Haney isn't still with us. She had a tremendous memory and grasp of the PCI in the western states and I've heard Olive and my father discuss this subject in some detail. My dad said many times that Harry Morse was very 'tolerant' of those who didn't see things 'his way'. He had sabbath and non-sabbath keepers in his congregation hence he had both Sunday and Saturday 'school'. He also, probably, had more of the one-steppers than 3 steppers. My father and Clyde Haney were one steppers till much later on.

[Esther]

Tim and SE would you say the PCI view like the UPC view is/has seen changes since GGSR era?

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I hear K. Phillips say that Elder Glass was his mentor and though his stand on outward standards is nil he yet preaches Acts 2:38 is the new birth? Was Elder Glass his pastor or just someone he looked up to? I don't know?
I concede I doubt that TFT believes the new birth. So on this we agree was it from Elder Glass I don't know?
I quoted John Patterson because I know he was 'weak' on the message however his works on the Godhead and Baptism madehim stand out in Canada. He answers Brumback in his book on baptism. Where Brumback paints him weak on repentance and paints him Popish on baptism. His weakness was known by those who knew him personally not his preaching itself.
My comments on the PCI then and their decendents today they were strong Acts 2:38 preachers whereas their decendents invitations reminds you of being at Baptist meeting I have been there. Teaching Acts 2:38 in a private class I have the history of the First Church at Corinth their 75 year record. Yes they believed folks were saved at repentance but baptism and the HGB were not seen as negociable. Elder Gurley made his mark preaching Acts 2:38.
His spiritual sons it's not a big deal. DEven the Yadons who would have been the weakest built their minstries preaching Acts 2:38.
The split from Azusa that became the church that recieved Durham's message
and became Ewart's work did teach tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost and folks were lost without it. The grandson of the pastor who followed Ewart is on CAF and if I can I will try to get him to post over here about the history of that group. However I agree the most did not.
As always good to spar with you.

Kenneth Phillips was from right here in Alexandria.

G. A. Mangun was his pastor.

That's the first I heard that Phillips would consider George Glass Sr. his "mentor."

He went to Texas as a very young pastor and from what I have observed, the Glasses and the Manguns were not particularly close.

All I was saying regarding TFT was that he was George Glass Sr.'s best known "son in the gospel" - this in response to your saying that GGSR's disciples were all strong "water spirit" men.

Do holler sometime if you're ever close this way in your travels.

[Esther]

I remember Sis Marvel Dees mentioning they were around when the merger took place.

Might be interesting to talk to her and see how her memory goes in some of these matters.