Jews Against Zionism

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Ron

All of North America is an occupied territory.

I have had discussions about this with a friend who is an anarchist (self proclaimed) who doesn't understand this "divine right" junk.
He only sees are past & present treatment of natives.

Also, God never promised there would be a nation of America & or Canada.

Apples & Oranges!

I dont agree that it is apples and oranges.

Again, how do you know that the current nation isnt of Gods chosing?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ferd

What foundation is that? what laws are you talking about? Biblical law or International Law?

I am also wondering what the OT law would say about how one is supposed to deal with those strangers in your midst whos sole purpose of existance is your distruction?

I take serious issue with your premis.

Two things, God told Israel to "wipe" out the inhabitants of the land long ago, do not intermarry with them, Abraham don't go into Hagar, Abraham you shouldn't have interceded for Ishamael!

They are reaping a lot even thousands of years later.

Modern Israel (Government not people) doesn't want peace with it's neighbours.

I have heard, read & seen incidences of Arab & Jew getting along.

Again it doesn't get back to the specific premise of what Bro Blume posted.

How is the Nation of Israel going to be set up?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I dont agree that it is apples and oranges.

Again, how do you know that the current nation isnt of Gods chosing?

How can you say that it is?

It is man's attempt to do what God needs & desires to do.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Brother Blume, Zionism is no more atheistic than the nation is Israel is. Israel has both religious and secular Jews. Zionism as a movement has many facets and only some are atheistic. I reject the notion that it is completely and wholly Anti-God.

Nobody said it is anti-God. It is just secular and not based upon God. That's all. The nation of Israel was started by Zionism alone.

Just as I reject the notion that America being set up as a secular Republic is somehow atheistic or displeasing to God.

Something against God is a far cry from something that is simply secular. The point is whether or not God is INTO IT. There are millions of dollars being sent to Israel for religious reasons from the USA. In fact, Christian Zionist influence is behind much of that financing, if not most of it.

And we are simply saying the root cause for Israel as a nation is not God. Not saying it is against God, although the Jews Against Zionism claim there should not be a nation of Israel there if they are not religiously adhering to God's law.

I think people do not realize that Israel was always unique. They wanted to be like other nations, in Samuel's day, and God told Samuel they rejected Him in doing so. Israel was never meant to be a nation aside from God's law-keeping. We cannot say it is similar to any other nation simply wanting to exist. God created the nation in the first place, and it is technically something that should not exist without God's influence.

I understand that Zionism started as a way to provide a homeland for Jewish people and thus protect themselves from further depredations that had occurred throughout the world. That isn't a "biblical" reason for sure. But that doesn't mean that the current nation of Israel is somehow de-legitimized because of it.

I agree in a sense. It is a nation. people have a right to be a nation if they want. But there is also the issue of God's entire purpose for it. It is like God starting the church, and then after centuries the church wishes to cast away all requirements of God involved in it, and simply be another social club among many. In some senses this is exactly what happened in some denominations. At any rate, that would be technically ridiculous.

I bristle at anything that seems to represent a political or even philosophical notion that the current nation of Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and by extension protect itself from those who would seek to harm it.

I completely disagree with bringing any harm to it! However, thinking God is involved with it when in actuality He is not, is quite another thing, and actually the point of this thread.

What is the goal here? To find some excuse for some segment of Western society to find an excuse to cease support for Israel?

I think it is to inform Christians that God is not involved in Israel today, and that if they are supporting it for religious reasons, they are wrong. Would that change people's support if they knew Israel was no different than any other country?

Christian Zionists like John Hagee are pushing support for religious reasons, thinking God is behind it. They are in grave error.

Support Israel aside from any inkling of religious reasons, if we wish! But I think many would cease if they knew God is not involved in that nation whatsoever.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Ron

Two things, God told Israel to "wipe" out the inhabitants of the land long ago, do not intermarry with them, Abraham don't go into Hagar, Abraham you shouldn't have interceded for Ishamael!

They are reaping a lot even thousands of years later.

Modern Israel (Government not people) doesn't want peace with it's neighbours.

I have heard, read & seen incidences of Arab & Jew getting along.

Again it doesn't get back to the specific premise of what Bro Blume posted.

How is the Nation of Israel going to be set up?

and again, I ask you how you know for sure that it isnt set up as per Gods desire?

Israel doesnt want peace? Are you serious? you think they want a generational war from now to the end of time? what kind of kookiness is this???

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I dont agree that it is apples and oranges.

Again, how do you know that the current nation isnt of Gods chosing?

We already showed you Deut 30. God said His choosing for Israel's place in the world depends SOLELY upon whether or not Israel will keep God's law. Now, if God stated plainly that He will not be behind any move for Israel to be a nation aside from law-keeping obedience, and yet we think God was behind Israel becoming a Zionist state, how in the world does that make any sense to say Israel today is of God's choosing?

I mean, think about it. The RELIGIOUS Jews who stringently keep Law of the old covenant are saying this current state of Israel is completely in rebellion against God. Are we saying we know more than they about their own Law?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ferd

and again, I ask you how you know for sure that it isnt set up as per Gods desire?

Israel doesnt want peace? Are you serious? you think they want a generational war from now to the end of time? what kind of kookiness is this???

If the Jews Against Zionism are right, God will not allow them to have peace. That is the whole point, Ferd. Have you read the first post onward?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ferd

and again, I ask you how you know for sure that it isnt set up as per Gods desire?

Israel doesnt want peace? Are you serious? you think they want a generational war from now to the end of time? what kind of kookiness is this???

It isn't kookiness Ferd, there is chatter & much speculation going around that Israel will launch a pre emtive strike against Iran in the spring after Obama is sworn in.

Remember Biden's "he will be tested?"

Won't that bring peace to the Middle East? Sure!

I ain't no Iranian fan either, thier President is a few fruit loops short of a full bowl if you ask me!

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Nobody said it is anti-God. It is just secular and not based upon God. That's all. The nation of Israel was started by Zionism alone.



Something against God is a far cry from something that is simply secular. The point is whether or not God is INTO IT. There are millions of dollars being sent to Israel for religious reasons from the USA. In fact, Christian Zionist influence is behind much of that financing, if not most of it.

And we are simply saying the root cause for Israel as a nation is not God. Not saying it is against God, although the Jews Against Zionism claim there should not be a nation of Israel there if they are not religiously adhering to God's law.

I think people do not realize that Israel was always unique. They wanted to be like other nations, in Samuel's day, and God told Samuel they rejected Him in doing so. Israel was never meant to be a nation aside from God's law-keeping. We cannot say it is similar to any other nation simply wanting to exist. God created the nation in the first place, and it is technically something that should not exist without God's influence.



I agree in a sense. It is a nation. people have a right to be a nation if they want. But there is also the issue of God's entire purpose for it. It is like God starting the church, and then after centuries the church wishes to cast away all requirements of God involved in it, and simply be another social club among many. In some senses this is exactly what happened in some denominations. At any rate, that would be technically ridiculous.



I completely disagree with bringing any harm to it! However, thinking God is involved with it when in actuality He is not, is quite another thing, and actually the point of this thread.



I think it is to inform Christians that God is not involved in Israel today, and that if they are supporting it for religious reasons, they are wrong. Would that change people's support if they knew Israel was no different than any other country?

Christian Zionists like John Hagee are pushing support for religious reasons, thinking God is behind it. They are in grave error.

Support Israel aside from any inkling of religious reasons, if we wish! But I think many would cease if they knew God is not involved in that nation whatsoever.

Again, I have to ask the question exactly how do you know God isnt behind the creation of Israel? (besides your personal partial preterist views of course)

Did Jesus come down and tell you that?

[Ron]

Ferd, have you read anything about Zionism?