dude, my point is that zionism is simply the movement to create a nation of Israel. they arent intertwined, they are one and the same.
This is an issue as to whether or not God is behind it. If they want to have a nation, fine. I know the nation exists. But it is nothing to do with God, is my point. If that is not your issue, though, then fine. This is about Christians perspectives on Zionism and whether it is of God that Israel is a nation today or not.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
I am not sure what your point is here, maybe you could clarify, but how they structure their nation is either upon God's Word or atheistic secular manners. It is an important issue due to this very important distinction. Zionism is atheistic. They stole the term "Jew" and applied it to themselves, as the orthodox Jews will tell us. A Jew is not a Jew unless that person lives by the Old Testament law of Moses.
So, creating Israel as a nation as it is today is absolutely against the Law of God according to the religious and true Torah-keeping Jews. Our advocacy of Israel as a nation should reflect whether or not God is behind it.
I was amazed to notice that after years of personally noting that God could not have been behind Israel's formation as an independent state in 1948, since Deut 30 forbids it, taht these true Torah keeping Jews have stated that all along!
How can we believe God gathered them to Israel when the true law keepers say it is rebellion against God? It would be God violating His own Word! The whole issue is whether or not God is behind it. I think many believers are severely mistaken in thinking He is!
Brother Blume, Zionism is no more atheistic than the nation is Israel is. Israel has both religious and secular Jews. Zionism as a movement has many facets and only some are atheistic. I reject the notion that it is completely and wholly Anti-God.
Just as I reject the notion that America being set up as a secular Republic is somehow atheistic or displeasing to God.
I understand that Zionism started as a way to provide a homeland for Jewish people and thus protect themselves from further depredations that had occurred throughout the world. That isn't a "biblical" reason for sure. But that doesn't mean that the current nation of Israel is somehow de-legitimized because of it.
I bristle at anything that seems to represent a political or even philosophical notion that the current nation of Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and by extension protect itself from those who would seek to harm it.
What is the goal here? To find some excuse for some segment of Western society to find an excuse to cease support for Israel?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
This is an issue as to whether or not God is behind it. If they want to have a nation, fine. I know the nation exists. But it is nothing to do with God, is my point. If that is not your issue, though, then fine. This is about Christians perspectives on Zionism and whether it is of God that Israel is a nation today or not.
Does God need to be behind it for America to support Israel as a nation?
Is God behind America? Is God behind France?
Should our political engagments around the world be based on this idea?
It seems to me that the question youve come up with is designed to suggest to those christians who support Israel because of their feeling that "those who bless Israel are blessed of God..." are off base.
What is the end game here? to suggest that Israel is bad and it is OK to say it if you are a christian?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Bro, the end result is the same. It is man's attempt at setting up what "God" said he would do!
When God sets it up no one will take it down.
Put it this way, if God truly set up Israel now, then the Ant Christ wouldn't be able to pull the wool over their eyes.
hmmm. then by extention then America is not a legitmate nation either. Man did that too.
AND exactly how do you know that God is not behind the formation of Israel as it is currently constructed? What is your proof? Did God come tell you that?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Bro. Blume does not believe that a temple needs to be established (and then sacrifice, and the Antichrist) for the Rapture to take place. Thus, he is trying to place this in the light that the return of the Lord is not dependent upon the state of Isreal. Pardon, Bro. Blume, if I misspoke your position.
__________________
If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
Mone me, amabo te, si erro
No real problem exists over the use of "The Name" in everthing else done in the Church. Why then should there exist great controversy over the use of the "The Name of the Godhead" in water baptism?
Kevin J. Conner The Name of God p. 92
Brother Blume, Zionism is no more atheistic than the nation is Israel is. Israel has both religious and secular Jews. Zionism as a movement has many facets and only some are atheistic. I reject the notion that it is completely and wholly Anti-God.
Just as I reject the notion that America being set up as a secular Republic is somehow atheistic or displeasing to God.
I understand that Zionism started as a way to provide a homeland for Jewish people and thus protect themselves from further depredations that had occurred throughout the world. That isn't a "biblical" reason for sure. But that doesn't mean that the current nation of Israel is somehow de-legitimized because of it.
I bristle at anything that seems to represent a political or even philosophical notion that the current nation of Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and by extension protect itself from those who would seek to harm it.
What is the goal here? To find some excuse for some segment of Western society to find an excuse to cease support for Israel?
Ferd, Bro Blume, & myself are not far off the bat.
We all like to see the preservation of Israel & her people.
That we agree on.
It is the process we disagree on & what it is founded upon that I have an issue with.
What one's foundation is built upon will govern how they conduct themselves.
The Law also had provisions for how the Jews were to treat the Palestinians or as it says in the word (strangers in the land) & at this Israel falls short.
I guess I could say it this way, we both as individuals or nations can often times be the biggest causes of our own worst troubles.
Bro. Blume does not believe that a temple needs to be established (and then sacrifice, and the Antichrist) for the Rapture to take place. Thus, he is trying to place this in the light that the return of the Lord is not dependent upon the state of Isreal. Pardon, Bro. Blume, if I misspoke your position.
I am well aware of Brother Blumes perspective... thus my questions.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
hmmm. then by extention then America is not a legitmate nation either. Man did that too.
AND exactly how do you know that God is not behind the formation of Israel as it is currently constructed? What is your proof? Did God come tell you that?
All of North America is an occupied territory.
I have had discussions about this with a friend who is an anarchist (self proclaimed) who doesn't understand this "divine right" junk.
He only sees are past & present treatment of natives.
Also, God never promised there would be a nation of America & or Canada.
Ferd, Bro Blume, & myself are not far off the bat.
We all like to see the preservation of Israel & her people.
That we agree on.
It is the process we disagree on & what it is founded upon that I have an issue with.
What one's foundation is built upon will govern how they conduct themselves.
The Law also had provisions for how the Jews were to treat the Palestinians or as it says in the word (strangers in the land) & at this Israel falls short.
I guess I could say it this way, we both as individuals or nations can often times be the biggest causes of our own worst troubles.
What foundation is that? what laws are you talking about? Biblical law or International Law?
I am also wondering what the OT law would say about how one is supposed to deal with those strangers in your midst whos sole purpose of existance is your distruction?
I take serious issue with your premis.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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