Adam Lambert

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Legalism is a over used word.


Are you against all TV??

This is a good question and I'm interested to see the answer.

Yes, legalism is an overused word for sure. But it does take place and it becomes a very ugly thing.

So here on this Happy Thanksgiving morning (I was awakened by three happy thanksgivings texts from people from another time zone, dang it), I'd like to recap what's happening here.

I enjoy the television show, "American Idol." While watching that show, I have enjoyed several singers, namely, Elliot Yamin, Danny Gokey, Ozzie Smith's son, Adam Lambert, some of Fantasia, and a lot of Allison Iraheta.

And you know what? It's really as simple as that. That's it. And because I included a young man named "Adam" in that list, I have been judged repeatedly throughout this thread. My leadership skills as a pastor have been questioned, the character of the people in our church have been questioned, my spiritual discernment has been trashed.....all because I like the singing style of a human being.

And some of you want to point to his character. Fine. If you don't like his character, don't watch him and don't listen to him. But don't require me to see it like you do. Please.

But as long as you're bringing up his character and sexual orientation, do you realize how many singers that you probably love, would get eliminated if we started making character determinations, even Christian singers, even....gasp.....apostolic singers and musicians???

So I guess I'm just trying to say, I don't think it's fair or honest to hammer me for liking Adam's singing. I was repulsed by what he did Sunday night. I turned it off. I thought his performance on CBS was great. I like him as a singer. I would find it difficult to approve of a lot of his choices, actions, and personal habits.

And it's really that simple. Don't judge me for liking a singer's singing.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Legalism is a over used word.

Are you against all TV??

no

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason

no

Then what is the burr under your saddle that makes you judge me for liking American Idol?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Then what is the burr under your saddle that makes you judge me for liking American Idol?

Bro. NOW, please put the victim card back in the deck.

Did you miss this post:

Originally Posted by Jason

NOW, this is way off base. Legalism gets started when someone teaches something and enforces it on others without proper scriptural principles.

Saying someone can't wear red, can't own a TV, can't play baseball, etc. Just some made up junk.

However, "what one person considers untouchable, another has no issue with." Well, people on this board have already come out in favor of the Twilight vampire series, others have defended Saw movies, and the like. Where is the line?

If I admonish the church NOT to watch porn, am I imposing legalism upon them? What if some claim it's only natural or educational? If I apply the same thing to movies such as Chainsaw massacre, Saw, and the like, am I out of bonds, am I become a legalist for teaching them not to watch others be chopped to shreds?

Maybe AI is okay. I don't personally watch it, but I haven't preached against it. I do believe that there is some variation on personal convictions, but you know as well as I that everyone must draw a line somewhere.

Why is your line okay, and mine legalism?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason

Bro. NOW, please put the victim card back in the deck.

Did you miss this post:

My good friend, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said this:

Disgusting.

Yet I wonder, why any Christian would be watching such trash anyway. I guess quote Romans 14 and it's allright.


...which is clearly judgmental. And I'm the one who quoted Romans 14 in my defense of watching such things. So I still wanna know....what is your problem with me watching American Idol? Do you, personally, have a problem with AI and do you also believe that I should have a problem with it? I think you should answer those questions.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

My good friend, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You said this:

Disgusting.

Yet I wonder, why any Christian would be watching such trash anyway. I guess quote Romans 14 and it's allright.

Indeed, I did say that. But you missed the context. It was in response to N_Davids post, here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=324

Which spoke of the afore beloved Adam Lambert doing things, I'd prefer not even to type, amongst the other trash that was featured on the music awards show--which trash Adam Lambert brought up as a defense to his own sinful actions.

So in that comment I was not particularly bashing AI, but the music awards show, and YES questioning why any "Christian" would even WANT TO watch it.

Originally Posted by notofworks

...which is clearly judgmental.

Not judgmental in the way your using it. You are using the same argument the world uses when we preach against sin. Simply because we call an action or lifestyle sinful, they claim the preacher is judging them. The preacher may not be judging them, but simply admonishing them that that lifestyle is wicked, and will cause them to senselessly be lost, when God has provided a way of escape, through Jesus Christ.

That said, are there not some things we have the responsibility to judge?
We can't be Christians who never make a call on anything.

Originally Posted by notofworks

And I'm the one who quoted Romans 14 in my defense of watching such things.

Exactly. You want to watch such things because it appeals to the lust of the flesh. We all have the lust of the flesh to struggle against, some I'm not "judging" you. But I am saying you are making provision for the flesh, and you are using Romans 14 to do it.

And using Romans 14, anyone "christian" can make the argument that they can handle something, while someone perhaps cannot.

Here you are apply it to the music awards and AI (which I will comment on momentarily). Again I say there is no limit to what Romans 14 can be applied to,if it is taken alone (and out of scriptural context). I make the argument that Romans 14 cannot be seperated from Phillipians 4:8 (amongst other scripture) when concerning entertainment.

Originally Posted by notofworks

So I still wanna know....what is your problem with me watching American Idol?

As I said, I have no knowledge of the show. I think that I remember someone posting that the lyrics to the songs they sang and such were suggestive and had profianitiy in them. *IF* that is the case, then yes, I would have a problem with a Christian watching AI.

Would I say their going to hell over it-ABSOLUTELY NOT. Would I suggest they find something more wholesome to view, absolutely. I don't think its a salvation issue.

Not everything is about salvation and standards. Some things just come down to wanting to please God, and to be more like Him (Matthew 5:48). Perfection is the goal we strive for, but we are bound by weakness. However, it is difficult for anyone to overcome weakness, when they are indulging in things which glorify the flesh.

Originally Posted by notofworks

Do you, personally, have a problem with AI

Yes and No. No in that I don't know much about it. And if it was just a "find the next best singer in America thing" I could see how that would be "spiritually nuetral" in itself. That was my stance when I first started posting on this thread. I honestly had no knowledge of AI, except that it was a hit reality style TV show featureing singing. I actually didn't know who Adam Lambert was either.

However, the more I read what people are saying goes on with the show, and those who the show promotes, I'd have to say yes, I do have a problem with some of those things.

Originally Posted by notofworks

and do you also believe that I should have a problem with it?

I do not understand how you as a pastor can come on here in favor of AI, or in favor an openly gay abrasive singer, (even speaking favorably of him in church staff meetings) and ask me if I believe you should have a problem with it.

Most repectfully, I say, I don't even know why you would ask. You should know. And I've got a feeling that deep down you know that it isn't in your spiritual best interests to partake in such things-because you are very intelligent.

Originally Posted by notofworks

I think you should answer those questions.

[notofworks]

Ugh...I hate these parsed posts. It's so difficult to answer with clarity. But I'll try.

Originally Posted by Jason

Indeed, I did say that. But you missed the context. It was in response to N_Davids post, here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=324

And he was speaking of my watching American Idol, I believe...my goodness, all these goofy parsed posts are hard to follow and I think that's why you're confused.

Which spoke of the afore beloved Adam Lambert doing things, I'd prefer not even to type, amongst the other trash that was featured on the music awards show--which trash Adam Lambert brought up as a defense to his own sinful actions.

I have never, and would never, approve of what he did at the awards. I thought it was disgusting and I turned it off. No one here, not me or anyone else, has offered any excuse for what he did.

So in that comment I was not particularly bashing AI, but the music awards show, and YES questioning why any "Christian" would even WANT TO watch it.

And like I said, it was awful. You're, apparently, thrashing me for something I was disgusted by and turned off while watching.

Not judgmental in the way your using it. You are using the same argument the world uses when we preach against sin. Simply because we call an action or lifestyle sinful, they claim the preacher is judging them. The preacher may not be judging them, but simply admonishing them that that lifestyle is wicked, and will cause them to senselessly be lost, when God has provided a way of escape, through Jesus Christ.

If you're calling American Idol "sinful" and condemning me for watching it, you're judging me. Period. I enjoy the show and have no problem with it. And if I did, I'd change the channel. But furthermore, if someone were to watch the awards show and what Adam did and had no problem with it.....while I would wonder where their head is, I would leave it to them to regulate. However, if they were participating in the performance of something like Adam did, yes, I'd would tell them it's wrong.

That said, are there not some things we have the responsibility to judge?
We can't be Christians who never make a call on anything.

Exactly. You want to watch such things because it appeals to the lust of the flesh. We all have the lust of the flesh to struggle against, some I'm not "judging" you. But I am saying you are making provision for the flesh, and you are using Romans 14 to do it.

Absolutely I'm not. You simply cannot make the connection between me watching American Idol, claiming it's because of the lust of my flesh, and accusing me of using Romans 14 to cover it up. That's either not fair, or you have no idea what I'm saying.

And using Romans 14, anyone "christian" can make the argument that they can handle something, while someone perhaps cannot.

Here you are apply it to the music awards and AI (which I will comment on momentarily). Again I say there is no limit to what Romans 14 can be applied to,if it is taken alone (and out of scriptural context). I make the argument that Romans 14 cannot be seperated from Phillipians 4:8 (amongst other scripture) when concerning entertainment.

As I said, I have no knowledge of the show. I think that I remember someone posting that the lyrics to the songs they sang and such were suggestive and had profianitiy in them. *IF* that is the case, then yes, I would have a problem with a Christian watching AI.

"I have no knowledge of the show". I think that pretty much says it all. Who posted that AI performances had profanity and suggestive lyrics? I've never missed an episode and I've never seen that.

Would I say their going to hell over it-ABSOLUTELY NOT. Would I suggest they find something more wholesome to view, absolutely. I don't think its a salvation issue.

Not everything is about salvation and standards. Some things just come down to wanting to please God, and to be more like Him (Matthew 5:48). Perfection is the goal we strive for, but we are bound by weakness. However, it is difficult for anyone to overcome weakness, when they are indulging in things which glorify the flesh.

Yes and No. No in that I don't know much about it. And if it was just a "find the next best singer in America thing" I could see how that would be "spiritually nuetral" in itself. That was my stance when I first started posting on this thread. I honestly had no knowledge of AI, except that it was a hit reality style TV show featureing singing. I actually didn't know who Adam Lambert was either.



However, the more I read what people are saying goes on with the show, and those who the show promotes, I'd have to say yes, I do have a problem with some of those things.

It absolutely IS a "Find the next best singer in America thing." That's why I enjoy watching it. The show DOES NOT promote any of the gay agenda. That's just moronic for anyone to claim that. One of the singers (I'm sure there have been more) happened to be gay. What are they supposed to do, throw him off? Having a contestant that was gay means nothing to the show. He was a singer, that's it. I'm really getting sick of reading the bigoted posts here that AI is promoting the gay agenda and lifestyle. That's indicative of an IQ of about 12.

I do not understand how you as a pastor can come on here in favor of AI, or in favor an openly gay abrasive singer, (even speaking favorably of him in church staff meetings) and ask me if I believe you should have a problem with it.

Come on Jason, where in the world have I "come out in favor of an openly gay, abrasive singer?" Are you making stuff up or are you just not clearly understanding what I'm saying? I LIKE HIS SINGING!!! That is it!! Why isn't that clear??? And if you're saying that I should dislike everything about him because he's gay, then you're a bigot, and I would have nothing more to say to you.

Most repectfully, I say, I don't even know why you would ask. You should know. And I've got a feeling that deep down you know that it isn't in your spiritual best interests to partake in such things-because you are very intelligent.

...not in my spiritual best interests to partake in what??

I'm truly saddened that this whole discussion has gone the direction it has. God help us.