The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save - Page 23

Jeffrey · #**221** 03-31-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Depends on what you mean by "justified".... eschatological acquittal? Which it is not. Does one mean something judged right? What does this have to do with the New Covenant? Pauls simple point was God can consider a action other than circumcision "righteous" and thus Abraham not at enmity. Circumcision in itself is nothing and has no unique "righteousing power" other than GOD judging "it" a right response just like Abraham and his response he considered "just". God judges our actions whether we are "right" before him. God judges all action just or unjust.

If God says move out of your home and move wherever. Is it the moving objects around that is the "righteousing power and judges me right IN THEMSELVES!" NO, it is my response to his Word to completion that "he" judges right. THe moving in itself is not what is "holy" but the source and reason why I move is considered holy or right and set apart. Thus God judges the actions "just" though the objects themselves have no actual holiness unto themselves. Thus circumcision is simply cutting of flesh. It though under the law(divine order) with faith attached to it from the heart was righteous to do. The cutting in itself is nothing without our divine order and your heart turned to God in doing so.

Interesting. So the acquittal has no eschatological implication? It's just for the moment. Do something wrong and SQUASH your gone, Mister?

Where do you keep getting the language "God judging" from? Not that it matters, but it's interesting you keep using that language.

The Law, Circumcision, neither Paul says, were for righteousness (goes against the grain of Jewish thought in Paul's day btw).

You qualify the circumcision, saying it worked because of a right heart. I say a heart right worked. This is more than semantics, it's the difference between justification by faith, or by deeds.

I am done with you!
Well. That takes care of that. Sorry to provoke you to this point.
I'm concerned for you. Your views are not within the scope of the Gospel.

TheLegalist · #**222** 03-31-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I confess that I didn't keep up with the "tongues" discussion just now as it seemed a bit of a side track from the main point of what NOW had offered in the opening. I'm also "multi-tasking" with three teenagers and find myself needing to run to the hardware store really quick...

That being said, T.L. - I think I see a bit more off what you're saying from this post. I am in complete agreement with your take on what is "holy" in a command (the "objects" or "your heart turned to God"). That is the basis for the whole "One Stepper" approach.

has nothing to do with one-stepper approach. Faith Only is makes a mockery of what "judgment" of just acts is. You cannot be considered "just" until a witness(response) is made evident. Even then that ONLY has to do with God simply not considering you at enmity. Because God considers/reckons you "turned to him" does not mean you have experienced COVENANT which I have pointed out before. you cannot though come into covenant without "the turning" and God judging your response "aright". thus the WHOLE POINT and PRINCIPLE OF

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

You cannot come to God seeking covenant unless your heart has been set right. Atonement cannot take place will mean nothing unless your heart has been judged not at enmity. that is how we present ourselves to God at baptism. We have turned at heart to partake in his death. In which we are united IN SACRIFICE and I am united WITH HIM by faith in the working operation of God. In which we rise to newness of life having been separated from the old man.

Jeffrey · #**223** 03-31-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

That would be salvation by "grace" alone which is not correct. Salvation is by Grace THROUGH faith. God judges your reponse right to obtain salvation. Faith is lifestyle not a condition of simple knowledge. A person obtains covenant by casting off all to obtain not simply believing he died for sins. He believes and does what needs to be done. To obtain salvation. Salvation is a purchase not simply a forced handout as it costs you something. Not just some bumb on the street corner getting a free salvation sucker stuck in his mouth.

And that "response" is at a heart level. Get rid of "judge" in this too. God is not judging, he is accepting our response. He's not on a judgement throne right now, he's on yours and my trail. What a differing perspective of God!

No one thinks faith is cognitive. Another straw man. Faith is a heart level response to who God is. BECAUSE we believe who he is, we cast off. And you know what, our New Year's Resolution, Self-savior casting off is really the wrong way to see it. God's help here is what is important. His view of us is what is important.

And yes, salvation is exactly for "some bumb on the street that gets a free salvation sucker to be stuck in his mouth." What a wonderful message! They need to realize that their living for themselves is nothing compared to living in Him!

scripture of "God's faith in Abraham was justified" in James 2

So your point? God considered him right because he responsed, which is how God judges all actions in that we are either at enmity or not with him. God considered Abraham righteous by doing which is James point of your you have not addressed AND NOT BY FAITH aLONE (mental assent alone)

God DIDN'T "JUDGE" Abraham's doing. He accounted to him righteousness by believing. Quit re-writing Scripture.

God judges responses just or unjust. God judges hearts. Our responses are an after-thought of our hearts. It's that simple! God did not go into covenant with Abraham until he judged his faith. Gen 12 promise was not realized unto covenant(Gen 15) until he moved. Abraham's covenant was not realized until(Gen 22) WRONG! Where do you come up with this stuff? God reassured Abraham of his covenant again with him at the altar with Isaac. But where do you get in the Text this is where the covenant was "really official" now? he was tested again and seen faithful and obedient. Yes, he was.
When we call upon his name in baptism(Acts 22:16) he answers our call upon which we are united in covenant unto his death and raised unto newness of life. More adding here. Scripture please.

Jeffrey · #**224** 03-31-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

has nothing to do with one-stepper approach. Faith Only is makes a mockery of what "judgment" of just acts is. You cannot be considered "just" until a witness(response) is made evident. Even then that ONLY has to do with God simply not considering you at enmity. Because God considers/reckons you "turned to him" does not mean you have experienced COVENANT which I have pointed out before. EXPLAIN. PAUL MUST'VE FORGOTTEN THAT IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COVENANTAL THEOLOGY - OR THAT THE COVENANT WAS NOT A COVENANT OF FAITH HMMMM you cannot though come into covenant without "the turning" and God judging your response "aright". thus the WHOLE POINT and PRINCIPLE OF

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. You get your theological thesis from Mat 5??? That's what this means to you?? Really TL?

You cannot come to God unless your heart has been set right. WRONG. God comes to us even while we are sinners. We aren't initiating this thing. We take NO CREDIT. He comes knocking on our door. We don't "come to him" in any literal way. We "follow Him" as a response to our trust and faith Atonement cannot take place will mean nothing unless your heart has been judged not at enmity. ?? Not understanding your sentence that is how we present ourselves to God at baptism. We have turned at heart to partake in his death. In which we are united IN SACRIFICE and I am united WITH HIM by faith in the working operation of God. In which we rise to newness of life having been separated from the old man.

No, FAITH ONLY is a threat to control freaks. FAITH ONLY is not a mockery, it's the way it's always been! It's not fair! You're right! We are undeserving! You're right! DEED-focused, we are all damned. We all screw up!

Jeffrey · #**225** 03-31-2010, 02:42 PM

Me and TL are now friends whether he likes it or not *hugs*

TheLegalist · #**226** 03-31-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

legalist were can you find this diffrence? If it is so clear there is one?

The difference is for example .... David said take not thy HS from me. Jesus said "we" will come and make our abode in him. The difference... the mediation of Christ on the heart which was the law made flesh.... Thus we have both "Father and Son" now.

Jermiah 31

and

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Thus the realization was deeper and more perfect because now we have "Christ in us" thus we can do and walk after his law.

TheLegalist · #**227** 03-31-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Me and TL are now friends whether he likes it or not *hugs*

LOL!

TheLegalist · #**228** 03-31-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

No, FAITH ONLY is a threat to control freaks. FAITH ONLY is not a mockery, it's the way it's always been! It's not fair! You're right! We are undeserving! You're right! DEED-focused, we are all damned. We all screw up!

depends on what is meant by "faith only" James said not by faith alone.

Faith is a deed just like justice and mercy per Jesus of which we ought to have done.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jeffrey · #**229** 03-31-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

The difference is for example .... David said take not thy HS from me. Jesus said "we" will come and make our abode in him. The difference... the mediation of Christ on the heart which was the law made flesh.... Thus we have both "Father and Son" now. ????

Jermiah 31

and

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Thus the realization was deeper and more perfect because now we have "Christ in us" thus we can do and walk after his law.

His Law. Not the Mosaic Law. Paul makes that clear. So the goal here is to determine what is his Law? (All an aside of course to justification by faith)

Jeffrey · #**230** 03-31-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

depends on what is meant by "faith only" James said not by faith alone.

Over-abused. Poor James. Wonder what sort of discussion he and Paul would have? What does James have in view here? What is he trying to say? To correct? That's always an important consideration. Who was his audience? Answering these questions helps us not use James to re-write 80% of the nT.

FAITH without works... is dead. In reality, there is no such thing as faith part from works. They are as separable as soul and spirit perhaps. But we can see faith as the brain, sending signals to the body called works. A body without faith is lifeless. A faith without a body is a vegetable.

Faith is a deed just like justice and mercy per Jesus of which we ought to have done.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.