The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

YEP! He had to be or he would not have been "just" before God! Was Abraham's response judged just by his obedience unto circumcision? Yes he was!

NO HE WASN"T... read it... Romans 4:1-4.

Read Genesis 15, Genesis 16 and Genesis 17.

Chapter 15 is when Abraham is justified (See again Romans 4:1-4).
Chapter 16 is when Abraham's faith wavers.
Chapter 17 is when circumcision is given as a "sign" of the covenant that God made way back in Haran in Genesis 12.

It was not "UNJUST" for Abraham to be circumcised - it was obedient! But Abraham was "accounted righteous" and he was "justified" by his faith alone already.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

What I mean by "justified" is exactly what Paul says in Romans 4:1-4.

You quoted my post and then added something like this? Clean your glasses Bro!



You're arguing with the voices in your head instead of discussing Romans 4 with me.

wow you do lack knowledge of different views of Justification and how some view how God IMPUTES upon a person righteousness/faith. FAITH IS NOT OF YOURSELVES and GOD IMPUTES SALVATION TO YOU! Which is forced acquittal. LOL! Which was my point!

In this particular case Abraham's "action" was that he "believed God." That is exactly what we've all been saying all along.

Yes, he did but Abraham was not "saved" but his action judged just! Thus his heart was judged in action to not be at enmity. James point is clear on gen 15:6 this is not about a ONE TIME BUT THE WHOLE of Abraham's life to the JUDGING his action just, at Isaac.

Now, you are correct!

Have been the whole time.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

NO HE WASN"T... read it... Romans 4:1-4.

Read Genesis 15, Genesis 16 and Genesis 17.

Chapter 15 is when Abraham is justified (See again Romans 4:1-4).
Chapter 16 is when Abraham's faith wavers.
Chapter 17 is when circumcision is given as a "sign" of the covenant that God made way back in Haran in Genesis 12.

It was not "UNJUST" for Abraham to be circumcised - it was obedient! But Abraham was "accounted righteous" and he was "justified" by his faith alone already.

Clear. Plain as day. Takes major creativity to explain that way.

Our way of salvation is the same as Abraham's. And this is why I have problem with Scofield. He loses the sense of the Story, and instead it becomes epochs, compartmentalized dealings with man. God has been after us since Adam sinned. He found Him. He didn't kill Adam. He gave Him clothes. He has been chasing after us since. God wants us, like Adam, to believe He is really the All in All.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

wow you do lack knowledge of different views of Justification and how some view how God IMPUTES upon a person righteousness/faith. FAITH IS NOT OF YOURSELVES and GOD IMPUTES SALVATION TO YOU! Which is forced acquittal. LOL! Which was my point!



Yes, he did but Abraham was not "saved" but his action judged just! Thus his heart was judged in action to not be at enmity. James point is clear on gen 15:6 this is not about a ONE TIME BUT THE WHOLE of Abraham's life to the JUDGING his action just at Isaac.



Have been the whole time.

So I can be justified and reconciled but still not a child of God?

You draw (I should say infer) and interesting addition, adding the word "saved" into the context of righteousness, justification, reconciliation. Should we pull Abraham back from the dead and ask him to talk a little tongues language?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

NO HE WASN"T... read it... Romans 4:1-4.

Read Genesis 15, Genesis 16 and Genesis 17.

Chapter 15 is when Abraham is justified (See again Romans 4:1-4).

Read the text his "faith" was considered "just"

Chapter 16 is when Abraham's faith wavers.

soo and your point?

Chapter 17 is when circumcision is given as a "sign" of the covenant that God made way back in Haran in Genesis 12.

Which has nothing to do with Gen 15:6 and the Covenant in Gen 22 concerning his seed. Which was brought about by OBEDIENCE!

chapter 17 is a land covenant not about spiritual offspring covenant. BOTH covenant are brought about by obedience.

It was not "UNJUST" for Abraham to be circumcised - it was obedient! But Abraham was "accounted righteous" and he was "justified" by his faith alone already.

I never said that! I said it would have BEEN UNJUST HAD HE NOT! He was considered just again by his action as well in Gen 17 was he not. Lack of faith in action becomes what? UNCIRCUMCISION and SIN!

Eze 18:22 None of the sins he has committed will be held30 against him; because of the righteousness he has done, he will live.
Eze 18:23 Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign LORD? Do I not prefer that he turn from his wicked conduct and live?
Eze 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing according to all the abominable practices the wicked carry out, will he live? All his righteous acts will not be remembered; because of the unfaithful acts he has done and the sin he has committed, he will die.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Before you can really go beyond the cross, you must first understand the cross. Everything that you do as a Christian will be reflected by your understanding (or misunderstanding) of the cross and the work that Jesus Christ did for us there. This work that was done by Jesus is something that no human being could have ever done for themselves.

See Galatians 2:20-21.

Even after Calvary, we find that Jesus Christ lives! And... we find that we ourselves are also alive. Therefore we must live our lives in a manner that does not "frustrate the grace of God."

Yes, we do "good works" and we are obedient to God's commands; but those "works" and that obedience isn't what gave us this life. It was the the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross that saved us. That is the source of our life. I don't obey God to "get saved." I obey God because I am saved.

I agree with all you said except the last phrase, but only in part since the last phrase is true for most actions. Repenting is as much as a deed as baptism in water, for example. But Baptism saves, as Peter said. When people say baptism is not a part of salvation then they must also say repentance is not. It is walking up to the table, so to speak, to devour the food that nourishes and gives life. Walking is part of getting the food, but the food actually nourishes, not the walk.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

wow you do lack knowledge of different views of Justification and how some view how God IMPUTES upon a person righteousness/faith. FAITH IS NOT OF YOURSELVES and GOD IMPUTES SALVATION TO YOU! Which is forced acquittal. LOL! Which was my point!

LOL. I really don't care "how some view how God IMPUTES upon a person righteousness/faith" if they contradict with what Paul is clearly stating in Romans 4.

I don't know if I'm following your next statements correctly. Taken one way, I agree. Taken another way... well, you should have meant the first way.

The "forced acquittal" (if you want to put it that way) occurs because while you and I were standing condemned in the docket and awaiting execution another man stepped forward and took our place in the gallows.

Because I believe that this man's death was efficacious for the crimes that I was condemned for, I am saved from the penalty for those crimes. Nobody "forces" me to believe this - but, boy-howdy! - am I glad for what that man did for me!

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Yes, he did but Abraham was not "saved" but his action judged just! Thus his heart was judged in action to not be at enmity. James point is clear on gen 15:6 this is not about a ONE TIME BUT THE WHOLE of Abraham's life to the JUDGING his action just at Isaac.

Have been the whole time.

James takes a different tack than Paul to this issue, but arrives at the same point. James looks "down the time line" all the way past the events we've discussed concerning justification and circumcision (Genesis 15 - 17) to Genesis 22.

Here, James points out that God's faith in Abraham was "justified." When the whole story came to a head and the chips were down, Abraham showed that he didn't have the wavering faith of Genesis 16 - but the solid faith of Genesis 22.

BUT... as Paul points out, God accounted Abraham righteous already, long before Isaac was even born. That's what God did.

Now, my hope and prayer for you is that you will understand that you were justified at Calvary. Long before your faith was ever tested or you ever faced a single trial, you were already accounted righteous.

We need to have this understanding (Genesis 15:6) because our own Genesis 22 experience will be facing us as soon as we stand up and walk away from these keyboards.

If we don't get Genesis 15:6, right; we may end up failing the test of Genesis 22 when it comes along. If we don't get Galatians 2:20 right, we may fail the test that comes along and be guilty of a Galatians 2:21.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

So I can be justified and reconciled but still not a child of God?

Depends on what you mean by "justified".... eschatological acquittal? Which it is not. Does one mean something judged right? What does this have to do with the New Covenant? Pauls simple point was God can consider a action other than circumcision "righteous" and thus Abraham not at enmity. Circumcision in itself is nothing and has no unique "righteousing power" other than GOD judging "it" a right response just like Abraham and his response he considered "just". God judges our actions whether we are "right" before him. God judges all action just or unjust.

If God says move out of your home and move wherever. Is it the moving objects around that is the "righteousing power and judges me right IN THEMSELVES!" NO, it is my response to his Word to completion that "he" judges right. THe moving in itself is not what is "holy" but the source and reason why I move is considered holy or right and set apart. Thus God judges the actions "just" though the objects themselves have no actual holiness unto themselves. Thus circumcision is simply cutting of flesh. It though under the law(divine order) with faith attached to it from the heart was righteous to do. The cutting in itself is nothing without our divine order and your heart turned to God in doing so.

You draw (I should say infer) and interesting addition, adding the word "saved" into the context of righteousness, justification, reconciliation. Should we pull Abraham back from the dead and ask him to talk a little tongues language?

I am done with you!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Depends on what you mean by "justified".... eschatological acquittal? Which it is not. Does one mean something judged right? What does this have to do with the New Covenant? Pauls simple point was God can consider a action other than circumcision "righteous" and thus Abraham not at enmity. Circumcision in itself is nothing and has no unique "righteousing power" other than GOD judging "it" a right response just like Abraham and his response he considered "just". God judges our actions whether we are "right" before him. God judges all action just or unjust.

If God says move out of your home and move wherever. Is it the moving objects around that is the "righteousing power and judges me right IN THEMSELVES!" NO, it is my response to his Word to completion that "he" judges right. THe moving in itself is not what is "holy" but the source and reason why I move is considered holy or right and set apart. Thus God judges the actions "just" though the objects themselves have no actual holiness unto themselves. Thus circumcision is simply cutting of flesh. It though under the law(divine order) with faith attached to it from the heart was righteous to do. The cutting in itself is nothing without our divine order and your heart turned to God in doing so. ...

I confess that I didn't keep up with the "tongues" discussion just now as it seemed a bit of a side track from the main point of what NOW had offered in the opening. I'm also "multi-tasking" with three teenagers and find myself needing to run to the hardware store really quick...

That being said, T.L. - I think I see a bit more off what you're saying from this post. I am in complete agreement with your take on what is "holy" in a command (the "objects" or "your heart turned to God"). That is the basis for the whole "One Stepper" approach.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

LOL. I really don't care "how some view how God IMPUTES upon a person righteousness/faith" if they contradict with what Paul is clearly stating in Romans 4.

I don't know if I'm following your next statements correctly. Taken one way, I agree. Taken another way... well, you should have meant the first way.

The "forced acquittal" (if you want to put it that way) occurs because while you and I were standing condemned in the docket and awaiting execution another man stepped forward and took our place in the gallows.

Because I believe that this man's death was efficacious for the crimes that I was condemned for, I am saved from the penalty for those crimes. Nobody "forces" me to believe this - but, boy-howdy! - am I glad for what that man did for me!

That would be salvation by "grace" alone which is not correct. Salvation is by Grace THROUGH faith. God judges your reponse right to obtain salvation. Faith is lifestyle not a condition of simple knowledge. A person obtains covenant by casting off all to obtain not simply believing he died for sins. He believes and does what needs to be done. To obtain salvation. Salvation is a purchase not simply a forced handout as it costs you something. Not just some bumb on the street corner getting a free salvation sucker stuck in his mouth.

James takes a different tack than Paul to this issue, but arrives at the same point. James looks "down the time line" all the way past the events we've discussed concerning justification and circumcision (Genesis 15 - 17) to Genesis 22.

Here, James points out that God's faith in Abraham was "justified." When the whole story came to a head and the chips were down, Abraham showed that he didn't have the wavering faith of Genesis 16 - but the solid faith of Genesis 22.

scripture of "God's faith in Abraham was justified" in James 2

BUT... as Paul points out, God accounted Abraham righteous already, long before Isaac was even born. That's what God did.

So your point? God considered him right because he responsed, which is how God judges all actions in that we are either at enmity or not with him. God considered Abraham righteous by doing which is James point of your you have not addressed AND NOT BY FAITH aLONE (mental assent alone)

Now, my hope and prayer for you is that you will understand that you were justified at Calvary. Long before your faith was ever tested or you ever faced a single trial, you were already accounted righteous.

We need to have this understanding (Genesis 15:6) because our own Genesis 22 experience will be facing us as soon as we stand up and walk away from these keyboards.

If we don't get Genesis 15:6, right; we may end up failing the test of Genesis 22 when it comes along. If we don't get Galatians 2:20 right, we may fail the test that comes along and be guilty of a Galatians 2:21.

God judges responses just or unjust. It's that simple! God did not go into covenant with Abraham until he judged his faith. Gen 12 promise was not realized unto covenant(Gen 15) until he moved. Abraham's covenant was not realized until(Gen 22) he was tested again and seen faithful and obedient.
When we call upon his name in baptism(Acts 22:16) he answers our call upon which we are united in covenant unto his death and raised unto newness of life.