The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Pauls whole point anyway is about works is...

1) works that are outside of CHrist that are good that you can claim you deserve eternal life by will not succeed in doing so.
2) he was against one must have precovenant works of goodness stored up to be considered for entrance into covenant and considered judged right to enter before God.
3) works by some form of special righeousing act by or like circumcision when Pauls' point is that nothing in circumcision itself has a righteousing aspect.

and others...

Agreed!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. And that is precisely why statements are severely wrong in saying that demands for baptism propose a salvation by works doctrine. Neither water baptism, Spirit infilling with tongues NOR repentance are efforts we perform that sidestep the cross. They are integrally linked to the cross, and without the cross are unavailable.

Amen!

[mfblume]

One steppers do not stop to think that they are watching a PHYSICAL ACTION of baptism, and that is the reason they skip a cell in their minds (TIC) and think it is salvation by works to believe it is vital to be baptised for salvation. And since repentance is not a physical act, but a mental act, they excuse repentance. However, mental, or physical, an act is an act. And since neither propose such an act makes us righteous without the efficacy of the cross, baptism is no more "salvation by works" than repentance.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

amen. And that is precisely why statements are severely wrong in saying that demands for baptism propose a salvation by works doctrine. Neither water baptism, spirit infilling with tongues nor repentance are efforts we perform that sidestep the cross. They are integrally linked to the cross, and without the cross are unavailable.

bingo!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

One steppers do not stop to think that they are watching a PHYSICAL ACTION of baptism, and that is the reason they skip a cell in their minds (TIC) and think it is salvation by works to believe it is vital to be baptised for salvation. And since repentance is not a physical act, but a mental act, they excuse repentance. However, mental, or physical, an act is an act. And since neither propose such an act makes us righteous without the efficacy of the cross, baptism is no more "salvation by works" than repentance.

totaly agree as "all" is a work of the mind.

[mfblume]

We perform repentance in our minds, and we receive forgiveness.

Is that performance a work that makes us righteous? Of course not. Everyone agrees. But we have to repent on our own volition and receive from God, without having earned anything in the process. Same with baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues. We receive TONGUES and Spirit baptism, and are not performing a tongue speaking in order to make ourselves righteous. GOD GIVES THE UTTERANCE, not ourselves!

All these details are being overlooked by the one-stepper, I honestly believe. What is the difference between receiving forgiveness from repentance and receiving the GIFT of the Spirit and God giving utterance for us to speak in tongues? How does THAT speaking in tongues become salvation by works that sidesteps the cross??

If Spirit baptism was a work of salvation that Paul preached against, then it would not be us receiving the GIFT of the Spirit, but rather us making self speak in tongues in human ability in order to receive the WAGES of eternal life. This is the all-important point one-step fails to see.

So please stop saying that we preach we must speak in tongues to be saved, as though it is like making ourselves talk in tongues and thereby makes us righteous outside of God's grace. We must speak in tongues as much as we must receive forgiveness, if we want to talk about musts.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We perform repentance in our minds, and we receive forgiveness.

Is that performance a work that makes us righteous? Of course not. Everyone agrees. But we have to repent on our own volition and receive from God, without having earned anything in the process. Same with baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues. We receive TONGUES and Spirit baptism, and are not performing a tongue speaking in order to make ourselves righteous. GOD GIVES THE UTTERANCE, not ourselves!

All these details are being overlooked by the one-stepper, I honestly believe.

If Spirit baptism was a work of salvation that Paul preached against, then it would not be us receiving the GIFT of the Spirit, but rather us making self speak in tongues in human ability in order to receive the WAGES of eternal life. This is the all-important point one-step fails to see.

So please stop saying that we preach we must speak in tongues to be saved, as though it is like making ourselves talk in tongues and thereby makes us righteous outside of God's grace. We must speak in tongues as much as we must receive forgiveness, if we want to talk about musts.

PO doesn't believe you receive forgiveness until baptism.

Do you feel you receive forgiveness at repentance or baptism?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

PO doesn't believe you receive forgiveness until baptism.

Do you feel you receive forgiveness at repentance or baptism?

I believe forgiveness and remission are the same thing. I do feel we get forgiveness at repentance. The angels rejoice over one soul that repents. But nonetheless I feel baptism is required since it is the fruits meet for repentance, as John the Baptist said. In other words, if it is a repentance in which God sees the obedience to do anything He wills to do, like baptism, then God forgives. But if the alleged repentance is seen by God to sidestep an obedient act of baptism, then God does not forgive.

It's like the fact that God granted Abraham righteousness for his FAITH THAT WORKS. If God knew Abraham would not obey to be circumcised, then the faith Abraham had was not the faith God took to grant Abe righteous. Same with baptism. Otherwise, how can one get Spirit baptism in Acts 10 without forgiveness first?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe forgiveness and remission are the same thing. I do feel we get forgiveness at repentance. The angels rejoice over one soul that repents. But nonetheless I feel baptism is required since it is the fruits meet for repentance, as John the Baptist said. In other words, if it is a repentance in which God sees the obedience to do anything He wills to do, like baptism, then God forgives. But if the alleged repentance is seen by God to sidestep and obedient act of baptism, then God does not forgive.

It's like the fact that God granted Abraham righteousness for his FAITH THAT WORKS. If God knew Abraham would not obey to be circumcised, then the faith Abraham had was not the faith God took to grant Abe righteous. Same with baptism. Otherwise, how can one get Spirit baptism in Acts 10 without forgiveness first?

Amen! You put that in better words than I did. Excellent!

And, BTW, this is why I believe the angels rejoice over one soul that repents.

But nonetheless I feel baptism is required since it is the fruits meet for repentance, as John the Baptist said. In other words, if it is a repentance in which God sees the obedience to do anything He wills to do, like baptism, then God forgives.

Coming back to cite your words again:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. And that is precisely why statements are severely wrong in saying that demands for baptism propose a salvation by works doctrine. Neither water baptism, Spirit infilling with tongues NOR repentance are efforts we perform that sidestep the cross. They are integrally linked to the cross, and without the cross are unavailable.

That is why, IMO, it is dangerous and erroneous teaching to say that anything stands "alone".

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

REPENTANCE IS AS MUCH A WORK AS BAPTISM!

I disagree. Dang it, I promised myself I wouldn't post until next week.

Repentance is being misunderstood and misapplied here. Typically, we see it as an action, something that's accomplished.

But repentance as it appears in this discussion is very different and in fact, works in perfect harmony with Romans 10:9-12.

In the Acts command to repent, we are being told to turn, to think differently, to reconsider; it is a condition of complete brokenness and a complete change of heart. We are not being told to slobber and cry at the altar. We're not being told to "work" on something.

It is, in fact, an exact description of what we are told will save us in Romans 10. See it described beautifully here (bolded emphasis mine):




Romans 10:1 Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is that the Jewish people might be saved.


Rom 10:2 I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal.


Rom 10:3 For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Instead, they are clinging to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. They won't go along with God's way.


Rom 10:4 For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.


Rom 10:5 For Moses wrote that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.


Rom 10:6 But the way of getting right with God through faith says, "You don't need to go to heaven" (to find Christ and bring him down to help you).


Rom 10:7 And it says, "You don't need to go to the place of the dead" (to bring Christ back to life again).


Rom 10:8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."


Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Rom 10:10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


Rom 10:11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.



This is a perfect description of repentance...a change of heart, a complete brokenness, turn, redirection, and a changed way of thinking.