A new twist on "Phariseeism?"

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Whoa. Strong words. Calling God a liar if he disagrees with your interpretation. Better hope you're right.

coming back to add:

Wow. I've been sitting here for 10 minutes feeling more and more stunned by the audacity of that statement. Seriously??!!?? You study the Bible, you think you understand what it means (even though there are many, many, many honest people who have studied the Bible and come away with a different understanding).... and if you get to heaven and God doesn't agree with you, you're going to call GOD a LIAR????? I say again.... Wow.

(and just for the record, it's 'chaste'. I don't think 'chaised' is a word.)

I can only believe he didn't mean it that way -- because I was just as shocked as you. Call GOD A LIAR???????

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I can only believe he didn't mean it that way -- because I was just as shocked as you. Call GOD A LIAR???????

Sadly, I think he does. I come from a very hardline heritage concerning these things but I don't think I ever heard it put as strongly as this man has said it. Essentially, he said:

If his personal interpretation of the bible isn't correct, God is a liar. That's really, really hard to stomach.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I've found debate really changes little. It really is silly to debate. If I showed you scripture...would you change? I could show 15 scriptures to prove our doctrinal stance...and re- comment every comment but it wouldn't changed the minds of those that are determined to believe.

The only hope for those who have abandoned the truth their parents preached (like Dan) is to realize the power is gone from their lives and churches...of course they rarely admit it's because of their abandoning of the doctrine of separation. So they continue their search for a "spirit-filled breakthrough church that doesn't teach separation in lifestyle and they are still looking... Occasionally they will find a former upc church that doesn't claim to teach this doctrine.. Yet it quickly deals away the doctrine of the imperative obedience to Acts 2:38.

While I do not subscribe to the idea that those who accept the doctrine of the pre-universal-doctrine-doesn't-matter church can never return to a love for the truth, I do believe that it is very very difficult. The amount of crow some would have to eat with their families and former pastors make it a pride-pill impossible to swallow.

So to answer your comment...this wasn't an attack against anyone. No arrogance... This post was copied from my facebook page and submitted here for mostly negative critique. I'm responsible for the church I pastor... If you don't believe the doctrine...walk out the door. The problem is some are so bitter towards some supposed UPC conspiracy to hurt them that they cannot walk away...ex Dan. It has some of you bound...you cannot walk away. It's not doctrinal issue so much as it is a personal spirit of unforgiveness I realize this doesn't apply to everyone...but many like Dan are seething packages of pain and bitterness.
Got to run...
Rob McKee (copyright 2010)<---in jest

Debate changes little. Open-heart discussions can have great affect. To many of us talk at each other. I'm guilty. But I've also been in places, with people who knew from the outset that they had great disagreements, open up, and turning discussions away from the competitive Western sort, into an open-heart, vulnerable growing and learning from each other. The latter was beautiful...

I'm not sure what church you're looking for. Let's look to the words of Jesus, the Apostles and learn of Him. If that church you say doesn't exist, then the reality is, it should. However, your dogma of Acts 2:38, many realize is a biblical truth, yet woefully interpreted and articulated. Call on the name of the Lord. Do all things in Jesus name. But to believe in a formula as the secret wand to access salvation really misses the point of what the "authority of the name of Jesus" means. Anyhow... again, this is a straw man. I haven't met a Christian yet that didn't believe in Acts 2:38.

The reason why some have walked away, but have a hard time getting far away is multi-faceted, that you'd have to be in that position to understand. Some of it will just be time. Some is because they still have deep relationships in this. Some of it is because they feel a responsibility in the matter. When the UPC, or any other denomination, is 99% of your life and history, walking away is not cold turkey.

While there may be some who are bitter (and I can't say I wouldn't understand that -- all the same, trusting God for their healing), their ire is often legitimate. And the classic rebuttal to someone who is equally passionate about a subject red-faced preachers in pulpits you frequent, is to say they are bitter. That gets old. People see through that. It's a huge ad hominem aimed at dismissing people. Judging their heart, even when people are in complete ignorance of what is going on.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

There are a TON of ex-UPCI churches that are doing just fine that wouldn't meet your criteria.

The Jones brothers are exploding in growth with Grace Church of Humble.

Church of Champions / Wendell Hutchins is growing at a fast clip in Champion Forest.

Spring Tabernacle in Spring, TX is doing great and growing.

even the more Chari-costal former UPCI folks like Richard Heard are doing good and still have the Holy Spririt of God fall in a powerful way just like in your church.

All those churches are less than a 30 minute drive from yours in Katy and doing just fine... not to count the hundreds (if not thousand+) churches who have left, modified themselves and are doing great.

Your attitude is wrong and not founded in reality by attendance or water/spirit baptisms in various churches that have left. I can name 10+ NON-GROWING UPCI churches in various Houston suburbs that are pretty much dead weight as far as the gospel message of evangelism goes. It goes both ways, many of the UPCI churches in your area are collectors and swappers of people who are already saved. If it hadn't been for TBC feeding the local churches for years with fresh blood Houston would be a much smaller area. Now Lufkin's churches are feeding on the folks who don't leave to expand the kingdom. Same way it is in Indianapolis, Saint Louis and Stockton feeder churches.

Oh, there's too much truth in this post ... and then there's Robert ... who doesn't believe the affirmation statement he signed.

He's semi-separated and integrity doesn't matter to him.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Oh, in that post I wasn't even talking about you. Prax's post just triggered one of my hot buttons.

Would I change if we discussed? Absolutely, if I believed you were correct. This is what many of us find offensive.... if we disagree with mainstream Pentecostal thought, you just write us off. We 'don't want to believe truth'. I was raised Pentecostal, my family is all Pentecostal. According to you, I've "left truth".

Do you know what this "leaving truth" has cost me personally? Trust me, the cost has been, and continues to be, enormous. I "left truth" because I no longer believed it to be true. I studied and studied, discussed and discussed, and I came to different conclusions than mainstream Pentecostals have come to. I could no longer walk before God with integrity while pretending to believe things I didn't truly believe.

I promise you I have an open mind. I want nothing more than to be right with God. If you could show me by scripture that I was wrong, absolutely I would change! But 'by scripture' I don't mean scripture that is looked at through the lens of Pentecostalism. I mean scripture that is looked at through no lens at all.... just plain and simple scripture, rightly divided, in historical context.

As far as the power being out of our churches? Certainly not true for my church. The power of God is just as real and strong in my church as it was in any Pentecostal church I've ever been in.

Amen. I feel the same way.

I made a drastic change in my theology in the last couple of years. This wasn't easy. It was heavy. It meant admitting I was wrong. It meant disappointing so many people. It meant realizing I was in deep idolatry too -- since I was so fearful of what others thought. But in the end, I was persuaded, and consoled by the Word and Spirit of God.

When guys like this say there's no power, what they mean, is the trademark they've put on the "move of God" isn't matching everywhere else. The predictable shout beats. The raised voices, running aisles and jigs in neck ties, etc... They dismiss any manifestation of the Spirit that is any different. The Spirit is put in a box of nostalgia. They know how to "bring a move of God." It's often manufactured. Hit that right A-flat. Hit the cymbals. Drop a few cliche's and people will get excited. That's not to say (CERTAINLY) that they don't experience the authentic presence, but sometimes they aim so much for what they see as the ONLY move of GOD, and are guilty at times of forcing God's hand in the matter, and I dare say have manipulated and inauthentic experiences. I'll be cautious about the latter, as I am only speculating out loud.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

No...I don't expect God to agree with me....but I guarantee He WILL agree with His Word.

I am a bug...my ideas are worth a plastic nickel...His Word is infallible.

My point was...
I would never dare question the Word of God...but I don't have to. God always agrees with His Word.

But you said if God says otherwise, you will call Him a liar -- instead of admitting you misunderstood Him. That's haughty, Rob.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry for this misunderstanding...Who's talking about "growth in numbers"?...what does that have to do with right doctrine? Lakewood is the largest church in America but they do not preach what the Apostles preached.
Even Hell is having dynamic growth...I'd rather attend one of those small churches that are following the Apostles Doctrine. Noah had a "dead non-growing church" too...well...at least for a while.

Are you saying the UPCI doesn't have a HOST (hundreds) of dead churches? None of them are declining in growth? All are overflowing in numbers?

Healthy things don't crystalize relics of the past, they reproduce, they grow, the adapt to their environment and pass life down to future generations.

If we agree to leave numbers out of the arguments, let's do that shall we? From both sides?

And Apostolic books that inflate the growth of their brand of religion, by including all Charismatic/Pentecostals worldwide should be honest. Most of those are hell bound in Apostolic OP's opinion.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

But you said if God says otherwise, you will call Him a liar -- instead of admitting you misunderstood Him. That's haughty, Rob.

Robert misunderstood the affirmation statement to say he doesn't have to teach against TV. He misunderstands quite a bit.

He also misunderstood the "unity clause" in the Fundamental doctrine (affirmed also in the AS)when he signed the WeDeclare manifesto.

Robert misunderstands Scripture, and bitter about it, too.

[DAII]

Robert is packing them in ... with a TV taste to his "playing it safe" theology through what the pastor before him called the "debbil's box".

Lord, send laborers to Katy who don't label everything as apostolic ... including their TV shows. Robert doesn't realize that his viewers don't have a clue what Pentecost is ... so why would they want it in their home?

Thank God there's a really good preaching point in Cinco Ranch with younger Daigle.

[canam]

. If I showed you scripture...would you change? I could show 15 scriptures to prove our doctrinal stance...and re- comment every comment but it wouldn't changed the minds of those that are determined to believe.

The only hope for those who have abandoned the truth their parents preached (like Dan) is to realize the power is gone from their lives and churches...of course they rarely admit it's because of their abandoning of the doctrine of separation. So they continue their search for a "spirit-filled breakthrough church that doesn't teach separation in lifestyle and they are still looking... Occasionally they will find a former upc church that doesn't claim to teach this doctrine.. Yet it quickly deals away the doctrine of the imperative obedience to Acts 2:38.

While I do not subscribe to the idea that those who accept the doctrine of the pre-universal-doctrine-doesn't-matter church can never return to a love for the truth, I do believe that it is very very difficult. The amount of crow some would have to eat with their families and former pastors make it a pride-pill impossible to swallow.

So to answer your comment...this wasn't an attack against anyone. No arrogance... This post was copied from my facebook page and submitted here for mostly negative critique. I'm responsible for the church I pastor... If you don't believe the doctrine...walk out the door. The problem is some are so bitter towards some supposed UPC conspiracy to hurt them that they cannot walk away...ex Dan. It has some of you bound...you cannot walk away. It's not doctrinal issue so much as it is a personal spirit of unforgiveness I realize this doesn't apply to everyone...but many like Dan are seething packages of pain and bitterness.
Got to run...
Rob McKee (copyright 2010)<---in jest

My dad always said "A man convinced against his will is of his own opinion still"