A new twist on "Phariseeism?"

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I've found debate really changes little. It really is silly to debate. If I showed you scripture...would you change? I could show 15 scriptures to prove our doctrinal stance...and re- comment every comment but it wouldn't changed the minds of those that are determined to believe.

The only hope for those who have abandoned the truth their parents preached (like Dan) is to realize the power is gone from their lives and churches...of course they rarely admit it's because of their abandoning of the doctrine of separation. So they continue their search for a "spirit-filled breakthrough church that doesn't teach separation in lifestyle and they are still looking... Occasionally they will find a former upc church that doesn't claim to teach this doctrine.. Yet it quickly deals away the doctrine of the imperative obedience to Acts 2:38.

While I do not subscribe to the idea that those who accept the doctrine of the pre-universal-doctrine-doesn't-matter church can never return to a love for the truth, I do believe that it is very very difficult. The amount of crow some would have to eat with their families and former pastors make it a pride-pill impossible to swallow.

So to answer your comment...this wasn't an attack against anyone. No arrogance... This post was copied from my facebook page and submitted here for mostly negative critique. I'm responsible for the church I pastor... If you don't believe the doctrine...walk out the door. The problem is some are so bitter towards some supposed UPC conspiracy to hurt them that they cannot walk away...ex Dan. It has some of you bound...you cannot walk away. It's not doctrinal issue so much as it is a personal spirit of unforgiveness I realize this doesn't apply to everyone...but many like Dan are seething packages of pain and bitterness.
Got to run...
Rob McKee (copyright 2010)<---in jest

Your thoughts weren't offensive, they were moronically backing God into a corner in which He's forced to agree with you. And if He doesn't? Well then, He's a darn liar. Haughtiness, arrogance...in a gargantuan way.

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Your thoughts weren't offensive, they were moronically backing God into a corner in which He's forced to agree with you. And if He doesn't? Well then, He's a darn liar. Haughtiness, arrogance...in a gargantuan way.

No...I don't expect God to agree with me....but I guarantee He WILL agree with His Word.

I am a bug...my ideas are worth a plastic nickel...His Word is infallible.

My point was...
I would never dare question the Word of God...but I don't have to. God always agrees with His Word.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I've found debate really changes little. It really is silly to debate. If I showed you scripture...would you change? I could show 15 scriptures to prove our doctrinal stance...and re- comment every comment but it wouldn't changed the minds of those that are determined to believe.

The only hope for those who have abandoned the truth their parents preached (like Dan) is to realize the power is gone from their lives and churches...of course they rarely admit it's because of their abandoning of the doctrine of separation. So they continue their search for a "spirit-filled breakthrough church that doesn't teach separation in lifestyle and they are still looking... Occasionally they will find a former upc church that doesn't claim to teach this doctrine.. Yet it quickly deals away the doctrine of the imperative obedience to Acts 2:38.

While I do not subscribe to the idea that those who accept the doctrine of the pre-universal-doctrine-doesn't-matter church can never return to a love for the truth, I do believe that it is very very difficult. The amount of crow some would have to eat with their families and former pastors make it a pride-pill impossible to swallow.

So to answer your comment...this wasn't an attack against anyone. No arrogance... This post was copied from my facebook page and submitted here for mostly negative critique. I'm responsible for the church I pastor... If you don't believe the doctrine...walk out the door. The problem is some are so bitter towards some supposed UPC conspiracy to hurt them that they cannot walk away...ex Dan. It has some of you bound...you cannot walk away. It's not doctrinal issue so much as it is a personal spirit of unforgiveness I realize this doesn't apply to everyone...but many like Dan are seething packages of pain and bitterness.
Got to run...
Rob McKee (copyright 2010)<---in jest

There are a TON of ex-UPCI churches that are doing just fine that wouldn't meet your criteria.

The Jones brothers are exploding in growth with Grace Church of Humble.

Church of Champions / Wendell Hutchins is growing at a fast clip in Champion Forest.

Spring Tabernacle in Spring, TX is doing great and growing.

even the more Chari-costal former UPCI folks like Richard Heard are doing good and still have the Holy Spririt of God fall in a powerful way just like in your church.

All those churches are less than a 30 minute drive from yours in Katy and doing just fine... not to count the hundreds (if not thousand+) churches who have left, modified themselves and are doing great.

Your attitude is wrong and not founded in reality by attendance or water/spirit baptisms in various churches that have left. I can name 10+ NON-GROWING UPCI churches in various Houston suburbs that are pretty much dead weight as far as the gospel message of evangelism goes. It goes both ways, many of the UPCI churches in your area are collectors and swappers of people who are already saved. If it hadn't been for TBC feeding the local churches for years with fresh blood Houston would be a much smaller area. Now Lufkin's churches are feeding on the folks who don't leave to expand the kingdom. Same way it is in Indianapolis, Saint Louis and Stockton feeder churches.

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

There are a TON of ex-UPCI churches that are doing just fine that wouldn't meet your criteria.

The Jones brothers are exploding in growth with Grace Church of Humble.

Church of Champions / Wendell Hutchins is growing at a fast clip in Champion Forest.

Spring Tabernacle in Spring, TX is doing great and growing.

even the more Chari-costal former UPCI folks like Richard Heard are doing good and still have the Holy Spririt of God fall in a powerful way just like in your church.

All those churches are less than a 30 minute drive from yours in Katy and doing just fine... not to count the hundreds (if not thousand+) churches who have left, modified themselves and are doing great.

Your attitude is wrong and not founded in reality by attendance or water/spirit baptisms in various churches that have left. I can name 10+ NON-GROWING UPCI churches in various Houston suburbs that are pretty much dead weight as far as the gospel message of evangelism goes. It goes both ways, many of the UPCI churches in your area are collectors and swappers of people who are already saved. If it hadn't been for TBC feeding the local churches for years with fresh blood Houston would be a much smaller area. Now Lufkin's churches are feeding on the folks who don't leave to expand the kingdom. Same way it is in Indianapolis, Saint Louis and Stockton feeder churches.

Sorry for this misunderstanding...Who's talking about "growth in numbers"?...what does that have to do with right doctrine? Lakewood is the largest church in America but they do not preach what the Apostles preached.
Even Hell is having dynamic growth...I'd rather attend one of those small churches that are following the Apostles Doctrine. Noah had a "dead non-growing church" too...well...at least for a while.

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

There are a TON of ex-UPCI churches that are doing just fine that wouldn't meet your criteria.

The Jones brothers are exploding in growth with Grace Church of Humble.

Church of Champions / Wendell Hutchins is growing at a fast clip in Champion Forest.

Spring Tabernacle in Spring, TX is doing great and growing.

even the more Chari-costal former UPCI folks like Richard Heard are doing good and still have the Holy Spririt of God fall in a powerful way just like in your church.

All those churches are less than a 30 minute drive from yours in Katy and doing just fine... not to count the hundreds (if not thousand+) churches who have left, modified themselves and are doing great.

Your attitude is wrong and not founded in reality by attendance or water/spirit baptisms in various churches that have left. I can name 10+ NON-GROWING UPCI churches in various Houston suburbs that are pretty much dead weight as far as the gospel message of evangelism goes. It goes both ways, many of the UPCI churches in your area are collectors and swappers of people who are already saved. If it hadn't been for TBC feeding the local churches for years with fresh blood Houston would be a much smaller area. Now Lufkin's churches are feeding on the folks who don't leave to expand the kingdom. Same way it is in Indianapolis, Saint Louis and Stockton feeder churches.

Sorry for this misunderstanding...Who's talking about "growth in numbers"?...what does that have to do with right doctrine? Lakewood is the largest church in America but they do not preach what the Apostles preached.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry for this misunderstanding...Who's talking about "growth in numbers"?...what does that have to do with right doctrine? Lakewood is the largest church in America but they do not preach what the Apostles preached.

I am not referring to Lakewood, I am referring to fellow Oneness Pentecostal brothers in your area.

Also Lakewood has a whole internal ministry like classes to teach folks about receiving the Holy Spirit and they have regular healing services with Joel Osteens mom leading them in their wedding chapel. Visit it some Saturday night and take the literature off the rack. Joel is their front man, but once you get into their church as a member they still have their Pentecostal/Charismatic roots in action there.

Also Joels dad was baptized by Bro. Ford in Baytown at Faith Tabernacle UPCI after he got the Holy Spirit at his baptist church there, so they know very well about our message. And John Osteen (the dad) was both baptized in jesus name and received the holy spirit... so where does that stick him according to your belief system?

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry for this misunderstanding...Who's talking about "growth in numbers"?...what does that have to do with right doctrine? Lakewood is the largest church in America but they do not preach what the Apostles preached.
Even Hell is having dynamic growth...I'd rather attend one of those small churches that are following the Apostles Doctrine. Noah had a "dead non-growing church" too...well...at least for a while.

I was commenting that folks like Dan who go to churches where "There is no power" whatever that means, its not like God turned off the Holy Spirit like a faucet getting turned off when they left the mothership... folks still get healed, receive the Spirit of God, and get baptized in Jesus name... they just don't always wear skirts and they cut with scissors instead of burn their hair with a curler and perm treatments like the girls in the UPCI

Also some of them wear make up instead of getting endless tans in a tanning booth.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

No...I don't expect God to agree with me....but I guarantee He WILL agree with His Word.

I am a bug...my ideas are worth a plastic nickel...His Word is infallible.

My point was...
I would never dare question the Word of God...but I don't have to. God always agrees with His Word.

Ok fine, if you need this spelled out a little clearer, I will oblige. So...I'll re-word it.

"Your thoughts weren't offensive, they were moronically backing God into a corner in which He's forced to agree with the way you see His Word. And if He doesn't? Well then, He's a darn liar. Haughtiness, arrogance...in a gargantuan way."

Hopefully, this is more precise.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

I will remain an Apostolic United Pentecostal Preacher...preaching the doctrine that I believe the Bible clearly teaches... Let's compare doctrinal notes in 5 years (I personally don't believe we have that long)...

We cannot both be right...our doctrine is so different. One of us will probably be lost...or maybe your definition of apostolic doctrine is such a broad way that it makes room for those that still preach the doctrine our fathers did.

And Dan... I have a father that has died and has met his reward...I'll stick with the doctrine he handed me. (Prov 6:20) I believe it worked for him. It seems to be working for over 2 million upc around the world. (not that crowds are a sign of salvation). Jesus taught that most people would be lost..I plan on doing everything I can to be one of the few.

While you didn't respond to me directly -- and it sounds like you wanted to avoid an argument, I do appreciate your interaction even still.

Right or wrong about when He returns to fully redeem his Creation matters not in the light of doctrine. I've heard too many use their personal opinions of when Jesus is coming to somehow instill a sense of urgency and even fear for listeners to add more credibility to what they proclaim.

We cannot both be right. You are correct. However, in more cases than you realize, there are more both/and's than you'd maybe be willing to consider. There are also areas that you should realize you ARE wrong, just as there are areas I know I'm probably wrong. That tempers my curiosity with great humility. Anyone who proclaims to have it all right reveals much about their own sense of intellectual honesty.

I'm neither interested in matching my teaching to the generation before me, as much as by the teachings of Jesus. With that logic, Martin Luther would have never nailed those 95 theses to the church door. Also, we are not worshipping these short-sighted ideas of heritage and tradition, we are worshipping God. The fact is, however, there is so much we can learn by tradition that is overlooked by Neo-Pentecostals, who proclaim the "old paths," while at the same time looking down on orthodox teachings. So let's be honest about our position here.

Living by this idea that "most people" will be lost, therefore because we are small, we are probably closer to the truth is just mind-boggling. It has no place in any argument. The fact is, if we were to talk about Christianity in general, even extending beyond Evangelicalism, the majority of the world is NOT Christian, and therefore still meets the credentials as being "not many." Of course, that's neither our metric. What our dad preached and what the numbers say... neither. (I find that ironic also, since Neo-Pentecostals use numbers to propagate their influence -- Our God is One, etc -- while also pointing to minority in numbers to establish their place as "God's elect remnant" on the earth.

I'm not trying to be "one of the few." That's a backwards theology and I'm not sure where you get that from. I'm trying to be one of His.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

If I get to Heaven and find out that our outward adorning, baptism in Jesus name only and separation from the world through a chaised lifestyle meant nothing to God....

I will ask God why he lied? God doesn't lie.

I just don't understand this statement, Rob.

I expected from you: "If I get there and He says it never mattered, I will still feel good that I lived a happy life, played it safe and still made it. Better safe than sorry." I'm used to that line of reasoning. But this line...

Our works mean squat to God -- our heart means everything. A right heart produces good work, but we are valued not by the goodness His grace brings to us, but by our ability to trust in, accept His grace in our life. Sanctification 101.

As far as baptism and separation from the world. I'm not sure you can find a person here who disagrees with you -- or in many places. How you articulate a theology of baptism may be different. How you articulate separation is certainly different. But it's a straw man to say no one else believes those are important to God.