Christian hostages murdered by Somali Pirates

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Sam summed it up pretty well. The RCC is "petitioning" a saint to pray for them... and NOT "worshiping" the saint. At least they're not supposed to.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, "
This is how the angel greeted Mary - Luke 1:28 - no worship here.

"and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
A summation of the words further spoken by the angel - Luke 1:30-35

"Holy Mary, Mother of God,"
This includes the the "Θεοτόκε" statement that many say was added later. "Θεοτόκε" is Greek for "God bearing" or "Mother of God." Technically, this does sum up what the angel was saying when he described the "Son of God" that was to be born from Mary's womb.

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
This is the petition asking Mary, the mother of Jesus to pray for the one saying these words. Christians commonly as other Christians to pray for them.

Nothing here about "worship" nor even submission like we see in the "Lord's Prayer:"

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
...

For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

There. A "defense" of the "Hail Mary." Is this a "FIRST" on backslidden AFF?

If this is where the Catholic religion left it, maybe I wouldn't be so sure in my view of them as IDOLATERS.


When praying to these "saints" to pray on one's behalf, there is the automatic response of reverence for these human beings-- a reverence that lends itself to rival the reverence deserved only for our GOD and Savior.

Furthermore, praying to these "saints" does very little to foster the Biblical truth of our abilities to "boldly approach the throne."

Instead of "asking our Father", trusting in Our Father, and believing in the ability and willingness of our Father to answer our call, the practice of praying to others to pray for us lends itself to asking, trusting, and believing in the ability and willingness of whoever we are praying to, that they might do something on our behalf.

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

-James 1:17



To call Catholicism a religion of idolatry is not a stretch at all.

While we're at it, there is not much good we should say about the theology of the Mormons and JW's too.

The people may be nice, but their belief system is flawed, faulty, wrong, false.

The belief systems of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholicism, and Mormonism will not lead anyone to eternal life with Jesus Christ as these belief systems do not encourage a biblical faith in, "the only wise God our Savior, {to whom be} glory, majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

-Jude 1:25

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

If this is where the Catholic religion left it, maybe I wouldn't be so sure in my view of them as IDOLATERS.


When praying to these "saints" to pray on one's behalf, there is the automatic response of reverence for these human beings-- a reverence that lends itself to rival the reverence deserved only for our GOD and Savior.

Furthermore, praying to these "saints" does very little to foster the Biblical truth of our abilities to "boldly approach the throne."

Instead of "asking our Father", trusting in Our Father, and believing in the ability and willingness of our Father to answer our call, the practice of praying to others to pray for us lends itself to asking, trusting, and believing in the ability and willingness of whoever we are praying to, that they might do something on our behalf.

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

-James 1:17



To call Catholicism a religion of idolatry is not a stretch at all.

While we're at it, there is not much good we should say about the theology of the Mormons and JW's too.

The people may be nice, but their belief system is flawed, faulty, wrong, false.

The belief systems of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholicism, and Mormonism will not lead anyone to eternal life with Jesus Christ as these belief systems do not encourage a biblical faith in, "the only wise God our Savior, {to whom be} glory, majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

-Jude 1:25

I'm no advocate of the scheme, however, I offered my thoughts in response to those who were more condemning and less critically thinking than yourself.

I suppose the idea is more fertile in areas where there appears to be little hope to "come boldly before the throne of grace" and actually see some answers to real world needs.

Going back to Somalia for a moment, though it is not a Christian community, its current socio-political mess mirrors conditions in Medieval Europe. For many people, just getting one child into adulthood was a dream. Famine, disease, the constant plundering raids from the continuous warfare, it all added up to a condition of misery where a lot of people might end up questioning their "faith." Any help for the desperate would certainly be sought.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I'm no advocate of the scheme, however, I offered my thoughts in response to those who were more condemning and less critically thinking than yourself.

(1) I suppose the idea is more fertile in areas where there appears to be little hope to "come boldly before the throne of grace" and actually see some answers to real world needs. Going back to Somalia for a moment, though it is not a Christian community, its current socio-political mess mirrors conditions in Medieval Europe. For many people, just getting one child into adulthood was a dream. Famine, disease, the constant plundering raids from the continuous warfare, it all added up to a condition of misery where a lot of people might end up questioning their "faith." (2) Any help for the desperate would certainly be sought.

(1) I'd imagine it is in those areas where it would not be uncommon for the adherents to have trinkets, maybe even miniauture statues, in honor of the dead people they are hoping will do something for them. This is a very broad generalization, still it pervades and the trinkets and statues lead many down the path of idolatry.

(2) I was immediately reminded of the phrase, "no other help I know."


Emotionally, it's not nice to think of people as deceived idolaters-- especailly when our understanding of the Bible leaves little (if any) hope for the idolater.


1 John 5:13 states, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

There are Bible verses that serve as a contrast to this verse, outlining the works of darkness. What does the Bible say?

As for these murdered Americans, our statements or beliefs on their eternal destination means very little-- they are already there and have been there for a few days now.

Where are we going?

How do we help other people so that they don't meet the same fate of the murdered Americans?

The Christian response is to kill the pirates who pose a threat to the lives of those sent to bring law and order to that region-- those who are sent to bring peace.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

If this is where the Catholic religion left it, maybe I wouldn't be so sure in my view of them as IDOLATERS.


When praying to these "saints" to pray on one's behalf, there is the automatic response of reverence for these human beings-- a reverence that lends itself to rival the reverence deserved only for our GOD and Savior.

Furthermore, praying to these "saints" does very little to foster the Biblical truth of our abilities to "boldly approach the throne."

Instead of "asking our Father", trusting in Our Father, and believing in the ability and willingness of our Father to answer our call, the practice of praying to others to pray for us lends itself to asking, trusting, and believing in the ability and willingness of whoever we are praying to, that they might do something on our behalf.

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

-James 1:17



To call Catholicism a religion of idolatry is not a stretch at all.

While we're at it, there is not much good we should say about the theology of the Mormons and JW's too.

The people may be nice, but their belief system is flawed, faulty, wrong, false.

The belief systems of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholicism, and Mormonism will not lead anyone to eternal life with Jesus Christ as these belief systems do not encourage a biblical faith in, "the only wise God our Savior, {to whom be} glory, majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

-Jude 1:25

Great post.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Great post.

Thanks.

You know, I'm not even sure if the murdered Americans were Catholic.


It doesn't matter where we think they are. They are there already. It is pointless to discuss it now, on this thread, in this manner.


The Christian response to the murder of those Americans should be a response grounded in prevention. Our actions should further peace and stability in the region so that no one else dies a violent death at the hands of pirates.

The Christian response is an ACTIVE response.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Thanks.

You know, I'm not even sure if the murdered Americans were Catholic.


It doesn't matter where we think they are. They are there already. It is pointless to discuss it now, on this thread, in this manner.


The Christian response to the murder of those Americans should be a response grounded in prevention. Our actions should further peace and stability in the region so that no one else dies a violent death at the hands of pirates.

The Christian response is an ACTIVE response.

Sure...

but it's not a Christian response, it's an American military response. The Christian response is ours, and collectively as a community.

For some, Braveheart is a Christian film, I think...

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Sure...

but it's not a Christian response, it's an American military response. The Christian response is ours, and collectively as a community.

For some, Braveheart is a Christian film, I think...

The Christian response should be multi-pronged, involving much prayer, planning and MK-19's.



"Blessed are the peacemakers..." not the pirates.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Thanks.

You know, I'm not even sure if the murdered Americans were Catholic.

They were not. Again, the captain/owner of the yacht was a graduate of Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, CA, and he had even taught there on a part time basis before retiring to the sea.

The whole thread got off track because Toothseeker couldn't wait to imagine sending somebody to hell.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

It doesn't matter where we think they are. They are there already. It is pointless to discuss it now, on this thread, in this manner.


The Christian response to the murder of those Americans should be a response grounded in prevention. Our actions should further peace and stability in the region so that no one else dies a violent death at the hands of pirates.

The Christian response is an ACTIVE response.

You are correct about the "response." I'm just afraid that given the state of things right now, there will be no response at all.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by pelathais

They were not. Again, the captain/owner of the yacht was a graduate of Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, CA, and he had even taught there on a part time basis before retiring to the sea.

The whole thread got off track because Toothseeker couldn't wait to imagine sending somebody to hell.



You are correct about the "response." I'm just afraid that given the state of things right now, there will be no response at all.

You must've missed Sec. Clinton's remarks on this already?

Civilians were killed in an overseas piracy episode by rebels and rogues... how that is resolved isn't simple. I liked some of the solutions you mentioned early.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

...You know, I'm not even sure if the murdered Americans were Catholic....

I don't know the religious affiliation or non affiliation of the 4 people.
I did see something on the news recently where a Monsignor (I assume he was the pastor of the married couple) talked very briefly about them distributing the Word of God. I thought he was their pastor but I may have been wrong.