viral video of teen punishment

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Deuteronomy 21:18-21, says;

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Do you know many children who are gluttons and drunkards?

I don't think this was referring to small children but adult children.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Do you know many children who are gluttons and drunkards?

I don't think this was referring to small children but adult children.

First question: Yes. Obesity is the number one Health Epidemic in America, and this includes children, and there is no shortage of drunkards in Society, young and old.

Second question: What difference does it make? Are you saying that stoning people is a justified response to the negligent act of being a drunkard or a glutton, regardless of age?

Also, the beginning of the verse says, "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them". Looks like obedience was the problem, not the sin.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Do you know many children who are gluttons and drunkards?

I don't think this was referring to small children but adult children.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Deuteronomy 21:18-21, says;

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Do you consider this Old Testament practice, "Child Abuse", and do you have respect for people who did such things to their own children, like stoning them to death for being rebellious?

I find much inconsistency on this whole Thread; People are outraged for current acts of abuse, yet we ignore that God's Chosen people practiced forms of discipline in the past, that today would make our blood boil.

Where's the inconsistency? I never stated that I support those extreme types of punishment. I find the methods of punishment used in the OT to be quite extreme and shocking. Also, the idea that the OT parents allegedly used violent or harsh punishments with their children is not an endorsement for present day practice--unless you also plan to endorse killing your wife if she commits adultery or sacrifice a goat every time you sin.

In spite of the verse you quoted, I believe if you look at scripture as a whole and particularly at Orthodox Jewish views on parenting, you will find that compassionate, kind, long-suffering parenting is supported--if in no other way than following the example of Jehovah and the way He parented His children. Even though the laws regarding sin were extreme, we see in the OT that HE had mercy over and over, in effect, failing to fulfill the laws of man and erring on the side of His own grace.

I believe these are important issues to address, as we take our strong stands in judgment of others, while holding a Book that may support an act of violence as "God's Will". This shows the valid conflict of the Old and New Testament, and, the possibility that certain forms of our own Religion may carry a very dark past and nature of cruelty towards innocent people and children.

This really has nothing to do with this conversation. We live in a different era, and as Christians we are commanded to live like Christ. The fruits of the Spirit are clearly outlined, the qualifications for bishops are clearly outlined, I Corinthians is crystal clear about what it means to live a life of love, and none of those things include being abusive to a child. Furthermore, we should have a good reputation with people in our culture, and being unkind to your children is simply not in vogue anymore. 50-100 years ago, maybe people weren't paying attention when men beat their wives and children; now they are, and you certainly won't present Christ to the world by participating in that kind of behavior.

If you want to start a thread about the "darkness" of the OT, feel free. It does not in any way affect my opinions about this judge abusing his daughter. I haven't personally expressed any inconsistency that I'm aware of. If you would like to point it out, then I will respond accordingly.

BTW, I don't agree with this father's treatment of his daughter. I grew up in a very violent home, and I was abused by my drunken parents who went to Church every Sunday.

I agree with Pragmatist that this verse probably refers to children who are actually grown. It makes a difference because it's akin to holding a child accountable for murder vs. holding an adult accountable for murder.

What I find interesting is that modern day Christians who are living under the New Covenant and enjoying the grace of God like to revert back to the OT to support extreme, abusive, violent behaviors.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I got that bad.... and it involved church, or my lack of "desire" to go. Long endless church. Hours and hours of timeless church. Nothing but church. Oh lord how I HATE church. My dad would even drive my near a local insane asylum and threaten shock treatments if I didn't comply and start agreeing to go to church with them as the perfect little child who would make their family unit appear more functional. God almighty I HATE church. And I DARE someone to say "oh get over it and let JEE-ZUS in!".

Over 25 years later and my heart starts missing beats when I am forced to enter a church and.... stand through a song service.

This post made me cry. I am so sorry for what happened to you. I grew up loving church and still love it every time I go. For me it is a place of safety and secrutiy. I really hate what happened to you.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Sherri

This post made me cry. I am so sorry for what happened to you. I grew up loving church and still love it every time I go. For me it is a place of safety and secrutiy. I really hate what happened to you.

It does seem he has been deeply offended. I too am sorry to hear that.

I can't say that I always love church. Of course I did not "grow up" going to a Pentecostal church, but even currently there is plenty that I simply do not enjoy.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

It does seem he has been deeply offended. I too am sorry to hear that.

I can't say that I always love church. Of course I did not "grow up" going to a Pentecostal church, but even currently there is plenty that I simply do not enjoy.

some days I like the idea of going to church better then the acutal going, and other days I don't feel like going and then was glad that I did.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Sherri

This post made me cry. I am so sorry for what happened to you. I grew up loving church and still love it every time I go. For me it is a place of safety and secrutiy. I really hate what happened to you.

And the post should remind us that different people have different notions about church and there are many reasons why.

Church is important to many people for many different reasons. Church is not important to others for equally as many different reasons. We should all be able to pursue God within the paradigms that our experiences have left us with.

Indeed we shouldn't forsake the assembling of ourselves together but that can happen in many ways and our understanding for others who don't feel the same way we do about the modern church model should be supportive of other forms of gathering that allow others to fulfill their relationship with God in ways that differ from the loves that our life have built into ourselves.

In short... a little understanding goes a long way.

PS... I'm not saying that you are not understanding. I'm just using your post to make the point.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Sherri

This post made me cry. I am so sorry for what happened to you. I grew up loving church and still love it every time I go. For me it is a place of safety and secrutiy. I really hate what happened to you.

Naw, don't feel that way. I did all my crying 25+ years ago over this. I barely think about it anymore outside of topics like this -or when I actually go to church for my wife's sake.

For me comparing "church" and God are like comparing peanuts and paperclips -in other words they are not even remotely in the same ballpark.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Naw, don't feel that way. I did all my crying 25+ years ago over this. I barely think about it anymore outside of topics like this -or when I actually go to church for my wife's sake.

For me comparing "church" and God are like comparing peanuts and paperclips -in other words they are not even remotely in the same ballpark.

Which ballpark is the Bible in?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Which ballpark is the Bible in?

FENWAY!