Visited a non UPC church

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Your point is noted. However, I did not infer that there weren't many conservatives and ultra conservatives in the UPC in the past 65 years. I would not only agree with that, but also think there were times when they were in the majority.

This does not negate the fact that men were elected into UPC office, even General Superintendent, who did not hold hard-line positions on things like jewelry and cut hair on women, not to even mention contrasting views of what constitutes the New Birth.

This speaks of tolerance we don't see today - in spite of the fact (as you accurately pointed out) many conservatives have now left the UPC.

For what it's worth your bias is showing when you state, "worldiness was permitted"...

Who was a General Sup that did not hold a hard-line on those positions. Even the late Rev Kenneth Haney held a hard line on those positions. And he was considered Liberal on the UC's.

Rev Haney just believed in a different application of that. You do not run people off just because they will not submit to your view of a standard.

I put this out there, if you do not have people in your church with TV's, Rings, Tattoos, Cut Hair, pant wearing women, etc. Then you are not reaching the lost. Teaching like that needs to be done on a personal level, not blasted over the platform in a boasting manner.

Also, a conviction for one pastor may not be the same for another. Why, because that may not be a spirit that he, or his church is fighting. But believe you me, when you live here in California where the spirit of Homosexuality is rampant (even in our churches) you have to take a stand and say "This line will not be crossed!"

You have to learn to discern what is Bible Foundation, what is a Pastors Conviction, and what is your own conviction.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Who was a General Sup that did not hold a hard-line on those positions. Even the late Rev Kenneth Haney held a hard line on those positions. And he was considered Liberal on the UC's.

Rev Haney just believed in a different application of that. You do not run people off just because they will not submit to your view of a standard.

I put this out there, if you do not have people in your church with TV's, Rings, Tattoos, Cut Hair, pant wearing women, etc. Then you are not reaching the lost. Teaching like that needs to be done on a personal level, not blasted over the platform in a boasting manner.

Also, a conviction for one pastor may not be the same for another. Why, because that may not be a spirit that he, or his church is fighting. But believe you me, when you live here in California where the spirit of Homosexuality is rampant (even in our churches) you have to take a stand and say "This line will not be crossed!"

You have to learn to discern what is Bible Foundation, what is a Pastors Conviction, and what is your own conviction.

I have heard and think I have read where the first GS, Goss, was not "hardlined."

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Who was a General Sup that did not hold a hard-line on those positions. Even the late Rev Kenneth Haney held a hard line on those positions. And he was considered Liberal on the UC's.

Rev Haney just believed in a different application of that. You do not run people off just because they will not submit to your view of a standard.

I put this out there, if you do not have people in your church with TV's, Rings, Tattoos, Cut Hair, pant wearing women, etc. Then you are not reaching the lost. Teaching like that needs to be done on a personal level, not blasted over the platform in a boasting manner.

Also, a conviction for one pastor may not be the same for another. Why, because that may not be a spirit that he, or his church is fighting. But believe you me, when you live here in California where the spirit of Homosexuality is rampant (even in our churches) you have to take a stand and say "This line will not be crossed!"

You have to learn to discern what is Bible Foundation, what is a Pastors Conviction, and what is your own conviction.

No offense to you Norcal, but the idea of Pastoral conviction is hogwash. Where in the NT does the scripture give a precedent for it? Where does scripture teach that a single man has a right to load his own convictions on everyone else?

Paul certainly didn't. He made it clear what was his own opinion and what was not. And when it was just his own opinion, the saints weren't bound to follow it or be considered sinful and rebellious.

Teach people how to love God and follow their own convictions, don't just heap your own issues and problems on all the church.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

No offense to you Norcal, but the idea of Pastoral conviction is hogwash. Where in the NT does the scripture give a precedent for it? Where does scripture teach that a single man has a right to load his own convictions on everyone else?

Paul certainly didn't. He made it clear what was his own opinion and what was not. And when it was just his own opinion, the saints weren't bound to follow it or be considered sinful and rebellious.

Teach people how to love God and follow their own convictions, don't just heap your own issues and problems on all the church.

yeah... what Nite said.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

No offense to you Norcal, but the idea of Pastoral conviction is hogwash. Where in the NT does the scripture give a precedent for it? Where does scripture teach that a single man has a right to load his own convictions on everyone else?

Paul certainly didn't. He made it clear what was his own opinion and what was not. And when it was just his own opinion, the saints weren't bound to follow it or be considered sinful and rebellious.

Teach people how to love God and follow their own convictions, don't just heap your own issues and problems on all the church.

Acts 20:28; 1 Th. 5:12; Ph. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1; Tit. 1:7; Jeremiah 3:15;

If God had not intended for there to be authority in your life, he would have not provided scripture for it.

Heb. 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

We may argue how much authority he should have in your life, but if you do not let him have any, you are biblically wrong.

I agree that a pastor should not "lord" over you (1 Thess. 2:7-8); Should lead by example (1 Pet. 5:3); Care about the welfare of the Saints then their own profit (1 Pet. 5:2); Be humble and not lord over the saints (1 Pet. 5:2); Build people up to free them to God's will (Eph. 4:11-12; 2 Cor. 10:8).

I think I could go on. But it is biblical.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Acts 20:28; 1 Th. 5:12; Ph. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1; Tit. 1:7; Jeremiah 3:15;

If God had not intended for there to be authority in your life, he would have not provided scripture for it.

Heb. 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

We may argue how much authority he should have in your life, but if you do not let him have any, you are biblically wrong.

Who are the leaders, scripturally?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Acts 20:28; 1 Th. 5:12; Ph. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1; Tit. 1:7; Jeremiah 3:15;

If God had not intended for there to be authority in your life, he would have not provided scripture for it.

Heb. 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

We may argue how much authority he should have in your life, but if you do not let him have any, you are biblically wrong.

I agree that a pastor should not "lord" over you (1 Thess. 2:7-8); Should lead by example (1 Pet. 5:3); Care about the welfare of the Saints then their own profit (1 Pet. 5:2); Be humble and not lord over the saints (1 Pet. 5:2); Build people up to free them to God's will (Eph. 4:11-12; 2 Cor. 10:8).

I think I could go on. But it is biblical.

Totally agree.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Acts 20:28; 1 Th. 5:12; Ph. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1; Tit. 1:7; Jeremiah 3:15;

If God had not intended for there to be authority in your life, he would have not provided scripture for it.

Heb. 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

We may argue how much authority he should have in your life, but if you do not let him have any, you are biblically wrong.

I agree that a pastor should not "lord" over you (1 Thess. 2:7-8); Should lead by example (1 Pet. 5:3); Care about the welfare of the Saints then their own profit (1 Pet. 5:2); Be humble and not lord over the saints (1 Pet. 5:2); Build people up to free them to God's will (Eph. 4:11-12; 2 Cor. 10:8).

I think I could go on. But it is biblical.

Can't argue with it.

And yes, with me the question has always been about "how much authority" not "is there any authority?".

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Acts 20:28; 1 Th. 5:12; Ph. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1; Tit. 1:7; Jeremiah 3:15;

If God had not intended for there to be authority in your life, he would have not provided scripture for it.

Heb. 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

We may argue how much authority he should have in your life, but if you do not let him have any, you are biblically wrong.

I agree that a pastor should not "lord" over you (1 Thess. 2:7-8); Should lead by example (1 Pet. 5:3); Care about the welfare of the Saints then their own profit (1 Pet. 5:2); Be humble and not lord over the saints (1 Pet. 5:2); Build people up to free them to God's will (Eph. 4:11-12; 2 Cor. 10:8).

I think I could go on. But it is biblical.

Um...the issue wasn't "is there a such thing as biblical authority", it was where does scripture give any leader the right to heap his convictions upon the saints and demand they follow his convictions. You just gave a bunch of verses explainign that we ought to have spiritual authority figures. Not a single one of them give that authority the right to control our lives or make us follow his own convictions.

If my pastor had severe drinking issues in his life pre pastoring and therefore held to a no alcohol at any time for any reason conviction, should he have the right to tell me not to have a drink or use Nyquill from time to time? Absolutely not. He has not right to expect me to follow his convictions.