Responding to a Trinitarian

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have not found this to be true in my experience. Even now there are thousands of so called "Apologetics" sites on the net that condemn Oneness doctrine. People have been literally killed because they would not accept the Trinity.

It is not a quibble over words. Jesus taught he was our Father come as a man. Trins will never agree to that.

The trinitarian doctrine does not fully believe that in Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily. They believe He is deity, but in their description of Him, He is a lesser deity than the Father, and not fully God. Makes a big difference, doesn't it.

I experienced this myself among the so-called tolerant trinitarians. They called Oneness heretical and declared us lost. For such tolerant people, they sure are intolerant.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The trinitarian doctrine does not fully believe that in Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily. They believe He is deity, but in their description of Him, He is a lesser deity than the Father, and not fully God. Makes a big difference, doesn't it.

I experienced this myself among the so-called tolerant trinitarians. They called Oneness heretical and declared us lost. For such tolerant people, they sure are intolerant.

I believe the trinitarian claim is co-equality?

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I believe the trinitarian claim is co-equality?

The "claim" is equality, but the fact is that they hold Jesus as a lesser deity. Take the time to read all they say about Jesus, and how they speak openly how Jesus is not the Father. In other words, with their lips they speak equality, but the totality of their doctrine is far from it.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The "claim" is equality, but the fact is that they hold Jesus as a lesser deity. Take the time to read all they say about Jesus, and how they speak openly how Jesus is not the Father. In other words, with their lips they speak equality, but the totality of their doctrine is far from it.

While I'm all for getting to the bottom of what people believe I think most the time people don't really listen to what the other side is saying. Are you sure that's not what you are doing?

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by jfrog

While I'm all for getting to the bottom of what people believe I think most the time people don't really listen to what the other side is saying. Are you sure that's not what you are doing?

That is a good response. The truth is, I did study it while I went into the Reformed church for about a year. And after my studies, I found out that what they say in one arena did not add up to what they said in others. It was a double talk in this area. So, I did study, tried to buy into it was the zeal of a zealot, and found out that what they said and what the Bible said differed, as well as what they said with what they said.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The trinitarian doctrine does not fully believe that in Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily. They believe He is deity, but in their description of Him, He is a lesser deity than the Father, and not fully God. Makes a big difference, doesn't it.

I experienced this myself among the so-called tolerant trinitarians. They called Oneness heretical and declared us lost. For such tolerant people, they sure are intolerant.

Well... since there are probably as many views of trinity as there are trinnies and as many views of oneness as there are OPs (or at least that is my experience) I can't completely disagree with you except to say that for you to boldly state what a group of people believe is kind of amazing.

I am a very strict monotheist, possibly a modalist and I am willing to bet (if I were the betting type) that you could not voice my theology accurately. If you tried I would be able to find areas where I was not in agreement... I know this because some have tried and they never get it right from either camp... So I am 100% certain that you have not given a good explanation of what trinitarians believe.

And not you personally really... but everyone who tries to read another person's thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

[Titus2woman]

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wanna explain to me what you disagree with?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wanna explain to me what you disagree with?

I'll chime in. From an Apostolic perspective I can't embrace the bolded portions above. If I had to embrace a creed... I'd embrace the Apostle's Creed:

The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.

Twelve beautiful lines. The creed is actually a perfectly biblical creed. It is also flexible to allow some varience of opinion in some matters (freedom of thought). I considered adopting this creed when I first left the UPCI to establish both a sense of orthodoxy among those I studied with, yet have the credal confession of a more Oneness faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-61M...eature=related

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'll chime in. From an Apostolic perspective I can't embrace the bolded portions above. If I had to embrace a creed... I'd embrace the Apostle's Creed:

The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.

Twelve beautiful lines. The creed is actually a perfectly biblical creed. It is also flexible to allow some varience of opinion in some matters (freedom of thought). I considered adopting this creed when I first left the UPCI to establish both a sense of orthodoxy among those I studied with, yet have the credal confession of a more Oneness faith.

I grew up reciting the long version in Mass every Sunday and know every word... I love the shorter version too Aquila but every time I think about it now it plays in my head with the voice of Mac Powell.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I grew up reciting the long version in Mass every Sunday and know every word... I love the shorter version too Aquila but every time I think about it now it plays in my head with the voice of Mac Powell.

lol