Responding to a Trinitarian - Page 2

Titus2woman · #11 02-22-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

For me and my Trinitarian friends the battle ground is the word "person". In Modalism, each mode has a distinct sense of self-consciousness. For example, the Father has a distinct sense of divine self consciousness. The Son has a distinct sense of human self consciousness. In Trinitarianism a subsistent center of self-consciousness is a person. Therefore, to them, what we call modes are persons. And by their definition they are right. The Modalist defines "person" in a way more akin to how they would describe "being". So we say God is one person in three modes... they say God is a single being in three persons. lol

The biggest difference is that we make a BIG deal out of it and most trinnies are blissfully ignorant that there is any difference in what we believe unless we explain it. Having lived some 40 years in trinitarian faiths I can promise you that the majority of mainstream Christians have no idea that Oneness exists. They believe that they believe in one God, the God of the bible and his son Jesus Christ who is God and the Holy Spirit who is also God.

Whether or not we are willing to believe them about that is up to us.

RandyWayne · #12 02-22-2012, 11:02 AM

When we left the Catholic faith the big eye opener for all of us was the invalidity of Saint/Mary worship. Learning about "oneness" was not, and never was, a big revelation for anyone in our family. Learning that it was such a huge point of contention from the point of view of many OP's WAS a bit more revealing.

bbyrd009 · #13 02-22-2012, 12:03 PM

Let me tell you, it is straight comedy, looking in from without. Modalist clowns. ICP is a better witness, imo.

Michael The Disciple · #14 02-22-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

The biggest difference is that we make a BIG deal out of it and most trinnies are blissfully ignorant that there is any difference in what we believe unless we explain it. Having lived some 40 years in trinitarian faiths I can promise you that the majority of mainstream Christians have no idea that Oneness exists. They believe that they believe in one God, the God of the bible and his son Jesus Christ who is God and the Holy Spirit who is also God.

Whether or not we are willing to believe them about that is up to us.

I have not found this to be true in my experience. Even now there are thousands of so called "Apologetics" sites on the net that condemn Oneness doctrine. People have been literally killed because they would not accept the Trinity.

It is not a quibble over words. Jesus taught he was our Father come as a man. Trins will never agree to that.

Jay · #15 02-22-2012, 03:33 PM

I have found that many Trinitarians do know about the Oneness issue, although those who are half-hearted, Sunday morning, Christmas, Easter, marryin', and buryin' 'Christsians' are worse than ignorant about any of the Bible doctrines.

trialedbyfire · #16 02-22-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

I have found that many Trinitarians do know about the Oneness issue, although those who are half-hearted, Sunday morning, Christmas, Easter, marryin', and buryin' 'Christsians' are worse than ignorant about any of the Bible doctrines.

Unfortunetly we have those in the Apostolic Diaspora as well.

From my experience the Oneness of God is something that comes by revelation. It effects some and not others. To me that was never a major point of contention. I never believed God was one in three persons. I believed there was a god, didn't know who he was, until I was baptized in that God's name... which I was shown in scripture was Jesus.

Jay · #17 02-22-2012, 06:59 PM

I have to agree with you on that. And many times they are as ignorant of the Bible as anybody else who barely attends church.

My mother has never believed in the Trinity, and she was raised around Baptist and Methodist churches. Even before she set foot in an Apostolic church she was convinced of the Oneness position. This is why I am not sure that it is a necessarily a revelation that God is one. The Bible said that this was to be taught not revealed by Himself. However, it is possible that many people need Him to reveal Himself to them.

Titus2woman · #18 02-22-2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

I have to agree with you on that. And many times they are as ignorant of the Bible as anybody else who barely attends church.

My mother has never believed in the Trinity, and she was raised around Baptist and Methodist churches. Even before she set foot in an Apostolic church she was convinced of the Oneness position. This is why I am not sure that it is a necessarily a revelation that God is one. The Bible said that this was to be taught not revealed by Himself. However, it is possible that many people need Him to reveal Himself to them.

Well Jay, your mother and I share that. I never believed in trinity or the 'mystery' theory that was used to explain it. I can remember even in catechism as a child that I did not believe that Mary or the Saints were worthy of the same honor as God or that God was triune.

The reason that I say that many/most trinitarians have no idea is because I have many friends in Baptist ministry and until either Don or I explain to them what is different about our theology they think it's all about standards and speaking in tongues. I live in an area heavily populated by OP's.. I can not go to any of the 4 local walmarts and not see 10 OP women, at least 5 of whom I know. And yet other Christians, not just pew sitters, on my job, in my neighborhood, at the school... have no idea what oneness is. N.O.N.E.

I am not saying that there are not a bunch of wanna-be theologians on the internet debating on both sides... I'm talking about the man on the street. But most, I have found are quick to see the truth of it... they still have no desire to have an ankle length skirt and a big poof of uncut hair and the tongues thing freaks a lot of them out... but One God and Jesus name baptism are two things I never hear much of a fuss against. As a matter of fact many people I've spoken with have asked their own pastors to rebaptize them in Jesus name, asked if my pastor would do it (and a bunch have actually done it) or asked Don and I if we would baptize them in Jesus name... I believe that it is because they are not so very different... just stuck with an explanation that does not completely work for them but is the best thing going as far as they know, just like I was once.

jfrog · #19 02-23-2012, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Let me tell you, it is straight comedy, looking in from without. Modalist clowns. ICP is a better witness, imo.

Please tell me the reference to ICP isn't to the band I think its referencing lol.

jfrog · #20 02-23-2012, 03:41 AM

Water Ice and Steam... All the same substance but each has its own characteristics. This is an analogy that works for both oneness and trinitarianism because we are both trying to explain a single God that is simultaneously three things. It's more an analogy that explains that triunity is possible than it is an analogy that supports any particular form of triunity.