Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Just the idea that I might sound anything like a 'pro-choice' advocate horrifies me. I will be doing some serious praying on this issue.

I do so want to restate and remake and reiterate the point that as Christians we need to be sure that we understand that young people make mistakes and support rather than shame those girls/women who do choose the hard road of keeping and/or raising a child.

One more thing I would really hope that we take away from this conversation is that behind every pregnancy there is a boy/man responsible for it. If we want to stop abortion I think the single thing that we all can do it to raise our sons well. I am appalled at how many boys still believe that there are girls you 'use' and girls you marry and they are not the same girls. Teaching our boys the value of their own purity would make the biggest dent in so many social problems.

I always like to ask men who discuss women in a negative way... "So, you were a virgin when you married then?" Amazingly I've not had one say "Yes, yes I was"... maybe some day.

No, I never thought that you were in the 'pro-choice' circles. It's that so much propaganda has been brainwashing people since Margaret Sanger:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

became a trailblazer and established PP, it is easy for all people to get confused about where we (as in ourselves) personally stand on this issue. We live in such complex times and those in the medical business have been subjected to all sorts of views and have seen all sorts of incidents that most people have not seen. The establishment wants to force people "to do their job" which is whatever the law of the land decides and without facing our own line in the sand about what we will do for a paycheck. The establishment is getting to where it does not care about personal lines in the sand. I've been told by some people, when discussing this issue, that if I was not willing to participate in an elective abortion procedure since it will be included in healthcare, then I should get out of the healthcare field.

These folks seem to forget that originally healthcare had the motto to first do no harm.

My point is...we live in a time where information is so readily available and it is being used for propaganda as well as for truth. It's hard for people to believe what is truth anymore when you got several different explanations and information for one issue such as abortion.

Abortion has become a political football every presidential election and nothing changes when they get into office.

It is sad that humankind has devolved into this sort of way. In the 18th and 19th centuries, black people were not considered to be human. That made it ok in some people's minds to have slavery or even kill their slaves. Of course we know that this is/was not ok.

This is what PP tried to do when abortion first came out. Advocates would say... it is a fetus, not a baby. A fetus is not living...just a mass of tissue. Then one brave physician proved them wrong and they moved onto more elaborate brainwashing such as "reproductive health", finally saying that women should have the right to choose.

I say women do have the right to choose. They can make wise choices not to get pregnant, use effective birth control or not to have sex before they are ready to marry and bring a child into this world.

The rape and other issues are mere deflections from the fact that over 50,000,000 abortions were performed since it's inception and we know that these numbers were not a result of 50,000,000 rapes or real medical issues.

There are some cases that are medical cases as in the ones you stated, but that should be between doctor and patient and not considered to be a routine elective termination of pregnancy. They were not considered to be abortions back then, but medical procedures to save the life of the mother.



And yes, T2W, you are exactly right when you say that people should raise their sons to respect women. Far too often girls are told that really very old line..."I love you", then they are left alone facing the music when they discover that they are pregnant. I am appalled at the men who want to make their mistake go away too by paying for the abortions. Those types still walk away and leave the woman with her conscious about what she's done.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

No, I never thought that you were in the 'pro-choice' circles. It's that so much propaganda has been brainwashing people since Margaret Sanger:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

became a trailblazer and established PP, it is easy for all people to get confused about where we (as in ourselves) personally stand on this issue. We live in such complex times and those in the medical business have been subjected to all sorts of views and have seen all sorts of incidents that most people have not seen. The establishment wants to force people "to do their job" which is whatever the law of the land decides and without facing our own line in the sand about what we will do for a paycheck. The establishment is getting to where it does not care about personal lines in the sand. I've been told by some people, when discussing this issue, that if I was not willing to participate in an elective abortion procedure since it will be included in healthcare, then I should get out of the healthcare field.

These folks seem to forget that originally healthcare had the motto to first do no harm.

My point is...we live in a time where information is so readily available and it is being used for propaganda as well as for truth. It's hard for people to believe what is truth anymore when you got several different explanations and information for one issue such as abortion.

Abortion has become a political football every presidential election and nothing changes when they get into office.

It is sad that humankind has devolved into this sort of way. In the 18th and 19th centuries, black people were not considered to be human. That made it ok in some people's minds to have slavery or even kill their slaves. Of course we know that this is/was not ok.

This is what PP tried to do when abortion first came out. Advocates would say... it is a fetus, not a baby. A fetus is not living...just a mass of tissue. Then one brave physician proved them wrong and they moved onto more elaborate brainwashing such as "reproductive health", finally saying that women should have the right to choose.

I say women do have the right to choose. They can make wise choices not to get pregnant, use effective birth control or not to have sex before they are ready to marry and bring a child into this world.

The rape and other issues are mere deflections from the fact that over 50,000,000 abortions were performed since it's inception and we know that these numbers were not a result of 50,000,000 rapes or real medical issues.

There are some cases that are medical cases as in the ones you stated, but that should be between doctor and patient and not considered to be a routine elective termination of pregnancy. They were not considered to be abortions back then, but medical procedures to save the life of the mother.



And yes, T2W, you are exactly right when you say that people should raise their sons to respect women. Far too often girls are told that really very old line..."I love you", then they are left alone facing the music when they discover that they are pregnant. I am appalled at the men who want to make their mistake go away too by paying for the abortions. Those types still walk away and leave the woman with her conscious about what she's done.

Finding possible scenarios to allow abortion is the best way to counter the claim that it's murder. If you call it murder and then allow it in even one circumstance that shows you are a hypocrite for condemning others for murder by abortion when you condone murder by abortion in some instances.

That's the point!

[The Matt]

This is about as sick as abortionists claiming embryos aren't really living beings.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by The Matt

This is about as sick as abortionists claiming embryos aren't really living beings.

The only other living thing that I can think of that can't live without a host is a parasite... just sayin

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I am not against abortion in all circumstances. Maybe because I have seen many young girls whose pregnancy was the product of incest. Girls as young as age 11, pregnant by fathers, uncles and older brothers. I do not think that on top of the trauma of having been sexually molested or assaulted these girls or young women should also have to undergo an unwanted pregnancy. Adding shame to their situation by saying that they commit murder, is cruel.

In the case of the life or health of the mother being at risk. PIH, DIC, eclampsia, severe medical conditions such as IDDM that are exacerbated by pregnancy or where the mother has to choose between not taking needed medication for her own medical condition or giving birth to a damaged baby from medication side effects as in cancer requiring chemotherapy or some severe seizure disorders, etc.

And lastly for genetic disorders or physical anomalies of the fetus that are incomparable with life such as anencephaly or severe heart defects.. To make a woman endure 9 months of pregnancy, explaining and reexplaining how her baby will die when born followed by the birth and death of the baby are just too much for most families.

To say that it is NEVER appropriate for a pregnancy to be terminated is just farther than I can go. I believe that a medical board could review each case and decide if termination is appropriate. It is commonly done for other controversial medical treatments.

However I in NO way support abortion on demand.

For a number of years (mid-teens to early 20s), I supported the position of permissible abortions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother. However, I as I matured, I could no longer hold to those. Our Lord only said that man could end life if another man had ended a life or in defense of himself or his property. No other provisions were permitted.

Further, God knows the situations surrounding each pregnancy. While I will admit that I would have a vicious struggle, I would not support killing a baby for any reason.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

The reason I have framed most of what I have said as questions is because I do not have all the answers but I think that sometimes we tend to simplify as if we do... How would you deal with your 11 year old daughter being pregnant by your younger, nice decent kid brother?

Your wife with a pregnancy that endangered her health and possibly her life but was too early to be viable?

A routine ultrasound revealing that the fetus you were carrying had no brain and while it would grow inside your body like a parasite for 9 months and be born it would never live beyond an hour?

My point is that these things are real situations that happen to real people every day. I meet some of these people.

So far I think I think that I believe that:

1. TOP on demand is morally wrong and should be illegal.
2. There should be some allowable exceptions and we may never agree on what they are.
3. The likelihood that current law will ever be repealed or even altered is almost nil for a lot of reasons the biggest one is that the majority of people want it to be legal even if they find it sickening.

And no, no comparison between welfare recipients and Hitler... My questions just kind of ran together... Do you believe it would have been better if Hitler were never born? And is it better for a woman to have and keep a child that she will never love or give a decent chance at life for selfish reasons than to terminate it?

Any male (young or old) who sexually abuses a young girl and knocks her up is not nice, and it does not matter where he came from or his parent's religion. The nicest thing that could be done to him would be a bullet through the back of his head. Harsh? Yes, but effective in protecting other small children from a predator.

None of this is cause to be killing a child. This 11 year-old is not responsible for the moral choice being made. She is under the authority of her parents, and it is upon them that the sin of murder would be placed. The child is innocent of wrong in this regard. In a few more years, that would be a different situation, but she is not.

Your last few paragraphs sound very much like the very liberal pro-abortion women that I have often had to deal with in my community.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Just the idea that I might sound anything like a 'pro-choice' advocate horrifies me. I will be doing some serious praying on this issue.

I do so want to restate and remake and reiterate the point that as Christians we need to be sure that we understand that young people make mistakes and support rather than shame those girls/women who do choose the hard road of keeping and/or raising a child.

One more thing I would really hope that we take away from this conversation is that behind every pregnancy there is a boy/man responsible for it. If we want to stop abortion I think the single thing that we all can do it to raise our sons well. I am appalled at how many boys still believe that there are girls you 'use' and girls you marry and they are not the same girls. Teaching our boys the value of their own purity would make the biggest dent in so many social problems.

I always like to ask men who discuss women in a negative way... "So, you were a virgin when you married then?" Amazingly I've not had one say "Yes, yes I was"... maybe some day.

I can understand your distaste for that. As I pointed out above, those were arguments that I have heard regurgitated endlessly by leftist, militant, feminists.

I would say that the responsibility is not all on the young men. Young ladies should also be taught to dress and conduct themselves as such. They should not be allowed to be touching, leaning, and embracing young men until they are either engaged or married (preferably married).

Young men should be taught to avoid any girl who is willing to do any of the above as such behavior and the allowance/encouragement of it will lead them both into sin. I release neither one from their duties to the other while both are unmarried. Will it keep all instances of sin from occurring? No, but it will keep it in a place of being more rare.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

The rape and other issues are mere deflections from the fact that over 50,000,000 abortions were performed since it's inception and we know that these numbers were not a result of 50,000,000 rapes or real medical issues.

Originally Posted by jfrog

Finding possible scenarios to allow abortion is the best way to counter the claim that it's murder. If you call it murder and then allow it in even one circumstance that shows you are a hypocrite for condemning others for murder by abortion when you condone murder by abortion in some instances.

That's the point!

Apparently your emboldening my quote above is the cause of your calling me a hypocrite? And do you know the difference between a medical procedure and a willful abortion?

Well, either I did not make my point of view clear enough for you or you cannot comprehend what I posted. So I will err on the side that I did not make it clear enough. I do not know how you can twist my statement that you emboldened into saying I am looking for ways to condone some abortions. I did not write anything of the sort in that statement. So...

I, in no way condone ANY abortion. Is that clear to you now?

My post above does not condone abortion for rape or incest or any medical procedure that will end the life of a viable pregnancy. It was put up there because others use rape or incest for their reason to say abortion is ok. Let me make clear that I think these excuses are merely used as deflections from the issue of abortion. If this were a true statement on other's part, then those people must be lying because there were not 50,000,000 rapes or incestuous pregnancies in these United States of America since the inception Roe vs Wade.


It would be nice if you do not understand what someone posts to ask them what they mean before you accuse others of being a hypocrite.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Apparently your emboldening my quote above is the cause of your calling me a hypocrite? And do you know the difference between a medical procedure and a willful abortion?

Well, either I did not make my point of view clear enough for you or you cannot comprehend what I posted. So I will err on the side that I did not make it clear enough. I do not know how you can twist my statement that you emboldened into saying I am looking for ways to condone some abortions. I did not write anything of the sort in that statement. So...

I, in no way condone ANY abortion. Is that clear to you now?

My post above does not condone abortion for rape or incest or any medical procedure. It was put up there because others use rape or incest for their reason to say abortion is ok. Let me make clear that I think these excuses are merely used as deflections from the issue of abortion. If this were a true statement on other's part, then those people must be lying because there were not 50,000,000 rapes or incestuous pregnancies in these United States of America since the inception Roe vs Wade.


It would be nice if you do not understand what someone posts to ask them what they mean before you accuse others of being a hypocrite.

1. I never called you a hypocrite either specifically or generally YET!. I did lay some groundwork on what I would call hypocritical... EDIT: I think the problem was with my use of the word "you". I used it in the generic anyone reading this post sort of sense and not the specific "AreYouReady" sense. I should have probably used the word "one". I apologize for the confusion.

2. I explained why bringing up situations such as rape pregnancies and possible life threatening pregnancies was more than deflecting the issue as you insist on calling it. It's important to bring those issues up to deal with the hypocrisy of pro-lifers who believe abortion can be allowed in some situations. Those pro-lifers make up the majority of pro-lifers in my experience.

3. Again, nothing was a personal attack against you. It was an explanation on why talking about those fringe issues such as rape pregnancies is important.

4. It would be nice if you did not understand what someone posts to ask them what they mean before you accuse them of personally attacking you... (these kind of comments can go both ways... so let's drop them from our vocabulary )

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Apparently your emboldening my quote above is the cause of your calling me a hypocrite? And do you know the difference between a medical procedure and a willful abortion?

Well, either I did not make my point of view clear enough for you or you cannot comprehend what I posted. So I will err on the side that I did not make it clear enough. I do not know how you can twist my statement that you emboldened into saying I am looking for ways to condone some abortions. I did not write anything of the sort in that statement. So...

I, in no way condone ANY abortion. Is that clear to you now?

My post above does not condone abortion for rape or incest or any medical procedure that will end the life of a viable pregnancy. It was put up there because others use rape or incest for their reason to say abortion is ok. Let me make clear that I think these excuses are merely used as deflections from the issue of abortion. If this were a true statement on other's part, then those people must be lying because there were not 50,000,000 rapes or incestuous pregnancies in these United States of America since the inception Roe vs Wade.


It would be nice if you do not understand what someone posts to ask them what they mean before you accuse others of being a hypocrite.

Further,

1. All abortions are willful whether for medical reasons or not.

2. I'll give you a chance to explain but I think you are simply rationalizing your stance that all abortions are wrong by simply not calling certain acts abortions that a normal person would. For example you seem to shy away from calling a medically beneficial procedure to terminate pregnancy an abortion even though it has an identical result of a unborn baby that will never see the light of day. Care to elaborate?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by jfrog

1. I never called you a hypocrite either specifically or generally YET!. I did lay some groundwork on what I would call hypocritical... EDIT: I think the problem was with my use of the word "you". I used it in the generic anyone reading this post sort of sense and not the specific "AreYouReady" sense. I should have probably used the word "one".

Ok. Yes using the word "one" would have been helpful in trying to decipher what you are trying to make a point on.

Originally Posted by jfrog

2. I explained why bringing up situations such as rape pregnancies and possible life threatening pregnancies was more than deflecting the issue as you insist on calling it. It's important to bring those issues up to deal with the hypocrisy of pro-lifers who believe abortion can be allowed in some situations. Those pro-lifers make up the majority of pro-lifers in my experience.

3. Again, nothing was a personal attack against you. It was an explanation on why talking about those fringe issues such as rape pregnancies is important.

Ok, I overreacted and I apologize. Let's discuss the rape and incest issue.

Most true pro-lifers (including me) I know in my region do not agree that abortions are ok in cases such rape and incest. Perhaps elsewhere some call themselves pro-lifers but truly believe it is ok in some cases. I specifically brought that up because it is the very excuse pro-choicers use to counter pro-lifers stance that abortion is murder. It may be a fringe issue, yet it is the very issue pro-choicers here use whenever there is a discussion about abortion. Pro-choicers say it is cruel to force a woman to bear her rapist's baby. Yet, there are women who do bear the rapists baby and some even keep and love that baby, often at the harsh judgment of the Christian community who have no idea as to how that baby was conceived.

I have taken care of the offspring of a brother-sister incestuous relationship. The poor child had dwarf-like syndrome and brain damage. I do not know what has become of that child after he improved enough to be removed from the neonatal intensive care unit.

Many pro-choicers use the 'medical procedure' explanation to categorize all abortions as "reproductive health" for women, when I think that term is quite deceptive and quite frankly repugnant. Medical procedures in pregnancies and abortions are not the same thing in my professional opinion.

Pro-choicers say that if women do not have access to safe abortions, they will return to the back alley abortionists. HUH? They make a mistake by becoming pregnant, but choose to make another wrong to "fix" their first mistake either by physicians or a back alley abortionist? It just does not make sense to me.

But what does make sense to me is that many people believe that abortion exists because of eugenics. Planned Parenthood's founder was a big proponent for eugenics.

**Margaret Higgins Sanger (September 14, 1879 – September 6, 1966) was an American sex educator, nurse, and birth control activist. Sanger coined the term birth control, opened the first birth control clinic in the United States, and established Planned Parenthood. Sanger's efforts contributed to the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case which legalized contraception in the United States. Sanger is a frequent target of criticism by opponents of the legalization of abortion, based primarily upon her racial views and support of eugenics, but she remains an iconic figure for the American reproductive rights movement.**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

Perhaps pro-choicers are unwittingly brainwashed into thinking it is ok to associate an unwanted pregnancy with "reproductive health"?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Further,

1. All abortions are willful whether for medical reasons or not.

2. I'll give you a chance to explain but I think you are simply rationalizing your stance that all abortions are wrong by simply not calling certain acts abortions that a normal person would. For example you seem to shy away from calling a medically beneficial procedure to terminate pregnancy an abortion even though it has an identical result of a unborn baby that will never see the light of day. Care to elaborate?

Thank you for giving me the chance to explain. I hope you do not have your mind made up by you thinking I am rationalizing by not calling certain medical procedures willful abortions.

It depends on the medical conditions a woman has in her pregnancy. Normal people do not always know what these medical conditions are. Yes, I would not call some medically beneficial procedures to be an "abortion" as most understand what abortion is generally known to be today.

Abortions as we generally understand it today to be are the procedures taken by medical personal to remove a fetus, thereby preventing it's chance to develop and live, even up to birth. It is a gruesome death for the fetus in most cases. In partial birth abortion, the baby is snuffed before it comes out of the birth canal. Some hail President Bush as outlawing partial birth abortions, but there are medical doctors who have come forward to say that the wording of the law leaves a loophole big enough for a mack truck to drive through and does not stop partial birth abortions. That is a totally different subject so I will move on to stay on topic here.

Some medical procedures to save the life of the mother sometimes cause the baby to die and sometimes not. I would not consider these to be abortions because the mother is not willfully trying to rid herself of her baby. These are conditions that many times rapidly develop and endanger the life of both mother and baby.
I will discuss just a couple because it is late and 7 am comes fast.


Take for instance molar pregnancies. They are technically identified as pregnancies, but bear no resemblance to a baby. Molar pregnancies have no viable genetic material that would form into a human being. The surgical removal of a molar pregnancy might be called an abortion, but in reality, there is not a viable, living human being being "aborted". This is but one example of what I call a medical procedure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydatidiform_mole

Next. Placenta Abruption.
The placenta is a structure that develops in the uterus during pregnancy to nourish the growing baby. If the placenta peels away from the inner wall of the uterus before delivery — either partially or completely — it's known as placental abruption. Placental abruption can deprive the baby of oxygen and nutrients and cause heavy bleeding in the mother.

The placenta is a structure that develops in the uterus during pregnancy to nourish the growing baby. If the placenta peels away from the inner wall of the uterus before delivery — either partially or completely — it's known as placental abruption. Placental abruption can deprive the baby of oxygen and nutrients and cause heavy bleeding in the mother.

Placental abruption often happens suddenly. Left untreated, placental abruption puts both mother and baby in jeopardy.


My niece had this serious complication. She nearly lost her life from loss of blood. She will never be able to have another child as they had to remove her uterus. They were unable to save the baby as the baby died in the womb. However, even if the baby did not die in the womb, the baby would have had to been surgically removed and put on life support because had they not done this medical procedure, both would have died. Sometimes the baby will die anyway because it is just too fragile to live outside the womb. Would you consider this medical procedure a willful abortion? Would you think that both should die?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pla...uption/DS00623

Let's look at toxemia and preeclampsia. Thousands of women and babies die or get very sick each year from a dangerous condition called preeclampsia, a life-threatening disorder that occurs only during pregnancy and the postpartum period. Preeclampsia and related disorders such as HELLP syndrome and eclampsia are most often characterized by a rapid rise in blood pressure that can lead to seizure, stroke, multiple organ failure and death of the mother and/or baby.

My co-worker had this illness. Her blood pressure at work suddenly went up to stroke levels and she nearly died. She started having seizures. They had to surgically remove her baby at 6 1/2 months gestation. The good news is that emergency intensive care for baby and mother was instituted and both were saved, although it was quite iffy for baby for a time. The baby was a fighter and 22 years ago, there were medical advances for a preemie such as this, but they were not always successful.

Would you have advocated that the baby stayed in the mother's womb so as to avoid what some might call a willful abortion because technically it is the removal of a fetus from the womb? I call this a medical procedure in the attempt to save mother or baby or both.

http://www.preeclampsia.org/
http://www.essortment.com/toxemia-51030.html

These are the type of conditions that I call medical procedures because in all cases I have seen, the mothers wanted these babies.

Lets not split hairs over my choice of wording about the fact that I do not believe in any abortion. Most abortions are willful, I do agree, but I do not classify all "beneficial medical procedures" to be willful abortions or even to be an abortion.