Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Since frog is quite liberal with his questions about why christians do believe that the unborn is human, I have a few of my own questions to him.

1. Why do you declare that the unborn is not human until a certain week in the gestation period? You must have some reason for that assumption to debate it so passionately.

There are things called genetic chimmeras. These occur when there are two embryos that fuse together and make one human person. But since both embryos were human persons then both have souls right? And since neither embryo died then both souls are still in their body right? But that leads us to quite a predicament, we would have one preson with 2 souls... That doesn't make sense to me so I believe embryos don't yet have a soul and that the soul is infused sometime later during pregnancy.

2. Don't you think that women should be more responsible about their body when it comes to having sex? Don't you think that being responsible includes taking responsibility for a baby doesn't mean getting rid of it?

The only comment I have is that "responsibility" means nothing in a debate about equating abortion to murder or unborns to human beings.

3. Why did God and the people back in those ancient times believe in women being chaste and virginity was so important to the husbands that betrothed them?

What does this have to do with abortion?

4. You criticize that some christians do not bury miscarried babies.. not excusing that in many cases there are no remains. Yet you say nothing about the aborted babies being thrown in dumpsters, sold to laboratories for research, using them for stem cell research and other really disgusting things. Which is the greater sin?

I criticize christianity when it's actions don't add up to its words. The simple fact is that my criticism of no funerals for unborns was more of a revelation to me. It was evidence that Christians haven't always held to this human life begins at conception view and guess what... my conclusion based on that evidence was spot on. Christians haven't always thought of unborns as human beings. In fact one author traces the change of opinion to some time after 1979. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slackti...he-happy-meal/ This means that despite what conclusion you want to draw from unborns not being buried.. Christianity has not typically counted unborns as human beings until relatively recently. Further, it seems the number of unborn burials and memorial services are increasing and I think this is directly tied to Christianity's new position that an unborn is a human being. Therefore my originial assumption that unborns are not buried and given funerals means that they were counted as less than born human beings seems absolutely correct when all this evidence is taken into consideration.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I criticize christianity when it's actions don't add up to its words. The simple fact is that my criticism of no funerals for unborns was more of a revelation to me. It was evidence that Christians haven't always held to this human life begins at conception view and guess what... my conclusion based on that evidence was spot on. Christians haven't always thought of unborns as human beings. In fact one author traces the change of opinion to some time after 1979. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slackti...he-happy-meal/ This means that despite what conclusion you want to draw from unborns not being buried.. Christianity has not typically counted unborns as human beings until relatively recently. Further, it seems the number of unborn burials and memorial services are increasing and I think this is directly tied to Christianity's new position that an unborn is a human being. Therefore my originial assumption that unborns are not buried and given funerals means that they were counted as less than born human beings seems absolutely correct when all this evidence is taken into consideration.

Be that what it may we are now able to see infants in the womb via sonogram and laparoscopy. We are able to save their lives at very early gestational ages outside the womb and technology will roll that age back even further soon. So we now KNOW they are human, feel pain, respond to stimulus, etc. If people were unsure before they can certainly be sure now from a medical standpoint, religion aside.

I don't think any scripture is going to satisfy you frog and it's the reason I haven't quoted any... but aborting healthy babies from healthy mothers does not fit the 'Be fruitful and multiply' model at all.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Be that what it may we are now able to see infants in the womb via sonogram and laparoscopy. We are able to save their lives at very early gestational ages outside the womb and technology will roll that age back even further soon. So we now KNOW they are human, feel pain, respond to stimulus, etc. If people were unsure before they can certainly be sure now from a medical standpoint, religion aside.

I don't think any scripture is going to satisfy you frog and it's the reason I haven't quoted any... but aborting healthy babies from healthy mothers does not fit the 'Be fruitful and multiply' model at all.

Neither does contraception but I'm sure you're okay with that.

Medicine does not answer the question of what is a human being. Medicine says look we can see the fetus and at certain ages of development it looks startlingly human. So what? We knew it would eventually look human if it came out looking like a human. So what if it feels pain. Cows feel pain too but we still grind them into hamburgers every day.

The one thing I can agree with you on is that we are eventually going to be able to get fetuses out and alive at very early ages. That's amazing and will play a major role in ending abortions. Having a fetus outside the womb and living still doesn't necessitate that it's a human being though.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Neither does contraception but I'm sure you're okay with that.

Medicine does not answer the question of what is a human being. Medicine says look we can see the fetus and at certain ages of development it looks startlingly human. So what? We knew it would eventually look human if it came out looking like a human. So what if it feels pain. Cows feel pain too but we still grind them into hamburgers every day.

The one thing I can agree with you on is that we are eventually going to be able to get fetuses out and alive at very early ages. That's amazing and will play a major role in ending abortions. Having a fetus outside the womb and living still doesn't necessitate that it's a human being though.

Actually in my personal life I am not OK with contraception, much of which interfers with implantation rather than conception so it abortifacient. However I do not make other women's decisions in my work, not about contraception and not about abortion. I am a care provider, not a life coach. I simply see the lesser of many evils that need to be used in a world where there is a lot of unmarried, even promiscuious sex going on. It is the reality... and again I have no desire to force sinners into the Christian model- they are supposed to be doing exactly what they are doing. They can have contraception, they can have abortions, heck, they can kill the store clerk down the street when they rob him.... but I won't support laws that make it legal to do so and I do support laws that make it illegal.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Actually in my personal life I am not OK with contraception, much of which interfers with implantation rather than conception so it abortifacient. However I do not make other women's decisions in my work, not about contraception and not about abortion. I am a care provider, not a life coach. I simply see the lesser of many evils that need to be used in a world where there is a lot of unmarried, even promiscuious sex going on. It is the reality... and again I have no desire to force sinners into the Christian model- they are supposed to be doing exactly what they are doing. They can have contraception, they can have abortions, heck, they can kill the store clerk down the street when they rob him.... but I won't support laws that make it legal to do so and I do support laws that make it illegal.

[jfrog]

There are things called genetic chimmeras. These occur when there are two embryos that fuse together and make one human person. But since both embryos were human persons then both have souls right? And since neither embryo died then both souls are still in their body right? But that leads us to quite a predicament, we would have one preson with 2 souls... That doesn't make sense to me so I believe embryos don't yet have a soul and that the soul is infused sometime later during pregnancy.

Bump. How come no one has commented on this?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Bump. How come no one has commented on this?

Genetic manipulation.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Bump. How come no one has commented on this?

That's not a insignificant observation. What about fertilized eggs that start dividing like normal but a few days later divide a "little too much", thus forming an identical twin? About the majority of fertilized eggs that never get implanted in the first place?

In light of this, there is a VERY significant time in a (living) eggs life and it happens around the four week mark when the heart starts pumping and the first brain waves are detectable, and each happens often within minutes or hours of each other. I believe THIS moment is much more poignant than the act of fertilization.