He came to save us from the wrath of God that we justly deserve because of our crimes against Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
How is being born on this earth, in a human body, and being subject to it's laws and limitations a crime? And why should we be tortured for all humanity for something we can't control?
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.
It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
I am finding it very strange that people seem to think I'm incapable of understanding any spiritual matter at all, if my thoughts about doctrine or theology differ from theirs.
It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
My questions is, how do they witness to someone of a different faith, or no faith, who doesn't hold the Bible to their level of preeminence? Or to someone from a different denomination, who is only ever used to a verse being used in one particular way?
The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
I expected perhaps many mentions of the Apostles, or prophecies from the OT, but I didn't expect for people to say that the discussion was pointless because of my views on the Bible.
I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.
It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.
It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.
The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.
I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.
But discussion is pointless, if you are unable to help her understand it. But sure, if your advice is first for her to "believe the Bible is the Word of God", and then she will understand (not that I agree that that is the correct word, as opposed to "agree" ), sure. I suppose that if she takes that advice, discussion would be less "pointless". But unnecessary, perhaps?
Interesting, isn't it, how there is still so much disagreement and arguing even among people who do accept the Bible as the Word of God, and do have the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth? (Way more so than among those who don't, I'd say! )
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Jesus came to send the Holy Ghost down, in order that we can be 'born again. Why do we need to be 'born again? Why do we need to be 'redeemed? Redeemed from who? Or what?
Ever since Adam, every baby born, was born into sin that Satan placed on this earth, therefore Jesus came to 'REDEEM' us from being a child of Satan. Every baby born, is a child of Satan, therefore they don't have to do anything to go the the Lake of Fire.
John 8:44 (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus wasn't just singling out the Jews. We are all children of the Devil until born again. And when 'born again, then we have God's 'divine nature' inside of us.
Jesus came to send the Holy Ghost down, in order that we can be 'born again. Why do we need to be 'born again? Why do we need to be 'redeemed? Redeemed from who? Or what?
Ever since Adam, every baby born, was born into sin that Satan placed on this earth, therefore Jesus came to 'REDEEM' us from being a child of Satan. Every baby born, is a child of Satan, therefore they don't have to do anything to go the the Lake of Fire.
John 8:44 (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus wasn't just singling out the Jews. We are all children of the Devil until born again. And when 'born again, then we have God's 'divine nature' inside of us.
Not believing this is why I don't hate God.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Jesus came to send the Holy Ghost down, in order that we can be 'born again. Why do we need to be 'born again? Why do we need to be 'redeemed? Redeemed from who? Or what?
Ever since Adam, every baby born, was born into sin that Satan placed on this earth, therefore Jesus came to 'REDEEM' us from being a child of Satan. Every baby born, is a child of Satan, therefore they don't have to do anything to go the the Lake of Fire.
John 8:44 (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus wasn't just singling out the Jews. We are all children of the Devil until born again. And when 'born again, then we have God's 'divine nature' inside of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
Not believing this is why I don't hate God.
I agree with you Timmy, but I really appreciate Renee answering the question clearly and forthrightly
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.
It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.
The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.
I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
But discussion is pointless, if you are unable to help her understand it. But sure, if your advice is first for her to "believe the Bible is the Word of God", and then she will understand (not that I agree that that is the correct word, as opposed to "agree" ), sure. I suppose that if she takes that advice, discussion would be less "pointless". But unnecessary, perhaps?
Interesting, isn't it, how there is still so much disagreement and arguing even among people who do accept the Bible as the Word of God, and do have the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth? (Way more so than among those who don't, I'd say! )
So I was thinking about this discussion this morning as I was getting ready for work, and I kept thinking of the story of Jesus healing the blind man, and the Blind man getting questioned by the Pharisees, and how they were trying to prove that Jesus was a sinner, because he didn't follow their rules. And they would question the man, and he would give his opinion, and they would continue to investigate because this miracle didn't fit into their paradigm. And finally the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
Just because I do not always take the Bible literally (i.e. I do not approach it as a rule book or instruction manual), does not mean that I think it contains spiritual truths.
As for the creation story I will borrow this thought from Rob Bell...which is more important that it happened or that it Happens? Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. I don't think that the practice started with Him. But for the record I do believe that the Universe was created by God. And I do believe in the Word in the John 1 kind of way...in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and that Word was crucified and resurrected and now dwells inside me.
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
), sure. I suppose that if she takes that advice, discussion would be less "pointless". But unnecessary, perhaps? 
)
Hybrid Mode
