Come Out Of Her My People

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So how were we supposed to translate those greek terms?

Which ones?

'Overseer' instead of 'bishop'?

'Congregation' or 'assembly' instead of 'church'?

'Immerse' instead of 'baptize'?

'Emissary' or 'sent-one' or 'missionary' or ???? instead of 'apostle'?

In any event, I don't see how the KJV's choice of terms is misleading unless one doesn't study the Biblical usage of the terms. (Possible exception would be 'baptizo'/baptize.... I don't know if any passages define the usage of the term to demonstrate immersion as opposed to pouring or sprinkling... So one might need a lexicon or dictionary for that one...)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Which ones?

'Overseer' instead of 'bishop'?

'Congregation' or 'assembly' instead of 'church'?

'Immerse' instead of 'baptize'?

'Emissary' or 'sent-one' or 'missionary' or ???? instead of 'apostle'?

In any event, I don't see how the KJV's choice of terms is misleading unless one doesn't study the Biblical usage of the terms. (Possible exception would be 'baptizo'/baptize.... I don't know if any passages define the usage of the term to demonstrate immersion as opposed to pouring or sprinkling... So one might need a lexicon or dictionary for that one...)

What is the difference between "Overseer" and "Bishop" other than a Star Wars like villian sounding name?

Why Congregation, assembly and not church? Especially when the word refers to the entire world wide body of believers?

Apostle comes from the Greek word Apostello

[Praxeas]

BTW the etymology of the word Church

before 900; Middle English chir ( i ) che, Old English cir ( i ) ce ≪ Greek kȳri ( a ) kón ( dôma ) the Lord's (house), neuter of kȳriakós of the master, equivalent to kȳ́ri ( os ) master ( kŷr ( os ) power + -ios noun suffix) + -akos, variant of -ikos -ic; akin to Dutch kerk, German Kirche, Old Norse kirkja.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What is the difference between "Overseer" and "Bishop" other than a Star Wars like villian sounding name?

Why Congregation, assembly and not church? Especially when the word refers to the entire world wide body of believers?

Apostle comes from the Greek word Apostello

I think you got me confused with the other guy. *I* have no problem with the terms used in the KJV.

The terms being referenced are the ones the King ordered 'retained' as they had 'long ecclesiastical usage'. **Correction: References to Geneva bible edited because me mind's playin tricks on me...

But like I said, those terms can be readily understood by simply paying attention to context. (With the POSSIBLE exception of 'baptizo', there I think you DO need to point out or understand the Greek term means IMMERSE.)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think you got me confused with the other guy. *I* have no problem with the terms used in the KJV.

The terms being referenced are the ones the King ordered 'retained' as they had 'long ecclesiastical usage'. Those terms were rejected by the Geneva translators, by the way.

But like I said, those terms can be readily understood by simply paying attention to context. (With the POSSIBLE exception of 'baptizo', there I think you DO need to point out or understand the Greek term means IMMERSE.)

"Unto what then were you immersed? Unto John's immersion"...I dunno brother. that sort of loses it's appeal for me

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

"Unto what then were you immersed? Unto John's immersion"...I dunno brother. that sort of loses it's appeal for me

Well, it's like those who refuse to use the term 'Holy Ghost' preferring instead 'Holy Spirit'... lol

*Correction: 'church' was used by Geneva Bible translators also.

Gonna do a correction on my previous post.

[Esaias]

http://bible-truth.org/Ekklesia.html

The purpose of this paper is to show that the early translators of the English Bible mistranslated the word "ekklesia" using the English word "church" instead of "assembly" or "congregation." This translation has helped promote the false doctrine of a universal church and a hierarchical authority over the local congregation. Showing how this translation has adversely affected the proper understanding of the biblical doctrine of the church will demonstrate the absolute necessity of translating the text literally and rejecting the influence of any particular church's theology.


(Please note that the use of the word "church" does not mean that the Bible has an error. It is common knowledge that the Greek word from which it was translated is "ekklesia." Further the word "church" is used in modern English to denote a local congregation or assembly as well as buildings and denominations. The problem, as this article points out, is that word "ekklesia" would have been better translated "assembly" or "congregation" and in doing so the false teaching of a universal or invisible church would have been avoided. The reason for the article is to uphold the original meaning and use of the word as God intended.)

(The quotation is just a teaser. The whole article is pretty interesting.)

[Esaias]

Another from the article:

The English dictionary reveals that the English word "church" which is used in our English Bible is taken from the late Greek word "kyridakon" not"ekklesia."(6) The Greek word "kyridakon" is not found in the New Testament and only came into being in the 16th Century long after New Testament times. Thus the English word "church" cannot be translated back into Greek because there is no word in the New Testament Greek that is the equivalent of the understanding of the English word. More will be said on this later.

[Praxeas]

ekklēsía; gen. ekklēsías, fem. noun from ékklētos (n.f.), called out, which is from ekkaléō (n.f.), to call out. It was a common term for a congregation of the ekklētoí (n.f.), the called people, or those called out or assembled in the public affairs of a free state, the body of free citizens called together by a herald (kḗrux [G2783]) which constituted the ekklēsía. In the NT, the word is applied to the congregation of the people of Israel (Act_7:38). On the other hand, of the two terms used in the OT, sunagōgḗ (G4864) seems to have been used to designate the people from Israel in distinction from all other nations (Act_13:43 [cf. Mat_4:23; Mat_6:2; Jam_2:2; Rev_2:9; Rev_3:9]). In Heb_10:25, however, when the gathering of Christians is referred to, it is called not sunagōgḗ, but episunagōgḗ (G1997), with the prep. epí (G1909), upon, translated "the assembling . . . together." The Christian community was designated for the first time as the ekklēsía to differentiate it from the Jewish community, sunagōgḗ

Zodhaites Word studies

[Praxeas]

I. Meaning

The English word ‘church’ is derived from the Gk. adjective kyrialos as used in some such phrase as kyriakon dōma or kyriakē oikia, meaning ‘the Lord’s house’, i.e. a Christian place of worship. ‘Church’ in the NT, however, renders Gk. ekklēsia, which mostly designates a local congregation of Christians and never a building. Although we often speak of these congregations collectively as the NT church or the early church, no NT writer uses ekklēsia in this collective way. An ekklēsia was a meeting or assembly. Its commonest use was for the public assembly of citizens duly summoned, which was a feature of all the cities outside Judaea where the gospel was planted (e.g. Acts 19:39); ekklēsia was also used among the Jews (LXX) for the *‘CONGREGATION’ of Israel which was constituted at Sinai and assembled before the Lord at the annual feasts in the persons of its representative males (Acts 7:38).


Robinson, D. W. B. (1996). Church. In D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman (Eds.), New Bible dictionary (D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman, Ed.) (3rd ed.) (199–200). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.