Is baptism part of the new birth?

[Michael The Disciple]

If baptism is not for salvation, the new birth, remission of sins, or regeneration it has no purpose at all. If he has no purpose I certainly would not try to tell someone they need to do it.

For having no purpose it sure seemed important to the Apostles! Its just that whats important to Christ is not always important to the "believer".

[Esaias]

Seems that according to the poll results, the majority of people here are not 'one steppers'.

You wouldn't think it, but it sure looks like the statistics indicate that...

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Nobody was "saved" in the OT. Some were just spared punishment after death, waiting for Messiah to redeem them.

I guess he could have responded....it was easier to escape punishment in the old testament....same point.....fortunately for the thief Jesus had not completed mission.

[Abiding Now]

Speaking of the thieves on the crosses at Calvary, both had a TOTALLY UNIQUE opportunity that no one had ever had before and no one would ever have again and yet FIFTY percent were lost. Says something about human nature.

[bishoph]

Here is a little article I wrote some time back concerning the "thief on the cross" argument against the necessity of baptism.

The question has often been asked: If baptism is necessary for salvation, was the thief on the cross saved? I believe a careful examination of the scriptural text will provide a sound Biblical answer.

Luke 23:32
And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

Luke 23: 39-43
39. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41. And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In this text we see that the thief (malefactor) first defended Christ’s innocence and then addressed him with contrition, and respect. His humble request was “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” While some would discount this “Lord” as merely a customary greeting out of respect, I believe his reference to the Lordship of Christ is of great importance.

First, it should be noted that this discourse took place prior to the death of Christ, which placed the thief under the dispensation/period of law. This fact alone should enlighten us to the fact that his (the thief’s) response and the ensuing outcome, was different than what is required of us today. Jesus’ response was very direct, and yet has been the subject of much debate, due to a misunderstanding of terms. Notice Jesus said “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Let us first examine what he did NOT say.

He did not say:
Today your sins are forgiven.
Today you are/will be saved.
Today you will be in heaven with me.

We must be careful not to wrest the scriptures to our own destruction! Jesus stated that the thief would be with him in paradise. To equate paradise to heaven would create a theological train wreck, for when Jesus arose from the dead and was seen of Mary he warned her: “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” John 20:17 (KJV) This statement by the risen Lord, proves that what he referred to as paradise during his crucifixion, was not the eternal home (heaven) of those redeemed through the shedding of his blood.

Paradise was, according to Jewish theology, a place where the souls of the pious, (those who were righteous under the law) were held until the resurrection. Another name used interchangeably was “Abraham’s Bosom.” Understanding the concept of “paradise” as it relates to the thief on the cross brings a powerful understanding of the substitutionary work of Calvary.

The Apostle Paul teaches us in Romans the fourth chapter that “Abraham believed God, and it was counted (imputed) unto him for righteousness.” The belief/faith, imputed to Abraham as righteousness, is the same belief/faith with which the thief on the cross believed, and likewise it was accounted to him as righteousness. Yet if Christ had not died these all would have perished, as the writer of Hebrews reminds us by saying; “these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:” (Heb. 11:39) Had the imputed righteousness (as a result of Abrahams belief/faith) been adequate for salvation, then the belief/faith of the thief would have been sufficient as well. Belief/faith, however, demands a response/action.

The Old Covenant response to belief/faith was to offer a sacrifice. Yet, the sacrifice of bulls and goats only provided a temporary reprieve from the penalty of sin. The thief through his belief was imputed righteousness, yet he needed a sacrifice to satisfy the guilt/penalty of his sins. Jesus, by consigning him to paradise, made him a benefactor of the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Thus, when the blood of Jesus was shed, it flowed backward to cover/remit the sins/iniquities of those in paradise.

The New Covenant response to belief/faith is likewise a sacrifice. Our belief/faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is evidenced by our willingness to sacrifice self at the altar of repentance. Therefore, If a man says he has belief/faith in Jesus Christ, yet is not willing to repent, (sacrifice his own will, desires, and nature) his actions prove his lack of faith.

A growing number among the Apostolic ranks, are teaching that belief/faith when combined with repentance equates salvation. This heresy often comes from their erroneous application of the thief’s belief/confession, and Jesus’ subsequent promise of paradise. We must, however, rightly divide the Word of God, lest we make those who hear/follow us two-fold children of hell. Without the shed blood of Jesus the thief never could have been saved! His confession did not equate to remission of his sins. The mercy/grace of God allowed him to be placed into paradise; (upon his death) it was however, the blood of the Lamb of God that secured his salvation. Likewise, we are not saved by belief/faith and repentance alone, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Finally, we must understand that belief/faith + repentance + baptism do not in and of themselves, equate salvation. Jesus said, “except a man be born of water and of spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.” (John 3:5) If a man through faith has sacrificed himself (repentance) and been buried/washed in the blood, he remains a dead, lifeless creature except he is resurrected to walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:9-11
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[seekerman]

Does anyone really believe baptism saves?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Does anyone really believe baptism saves?

yes, they do

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Does anyone really believe baptism saves?

Originally Posted by berkeley

yes, they do

I am fairly certain there is not one person on this forum that believes baptism alone saves. However, myself and a few others, do believe that the "finished work of Calvary" is not realized absent of baptism. Just because Christ died for the sins of the whole world does not mean they are all forgiven and abolished without baptism.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by berkeley

yes, they do

I've never meet anyone who believes baptism saves, even the ones who quote the verse that says baptism saves. It's always baptism plus other stuff.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I am fairly certain there is not one person on this forum that believes baptism alone saves. However, myself and a few others, do believe that the "finished work of Calvary" is not realized absent of baptism. Just because Christ died for the sins of the whole world does not mean they are all forgiven and abolished without baptism.

Bishop, In the poll, I answered I am not sure,because I believe in the importance of Baptism but that being said It does not mean that sins are not forgiven without Baptism.

Sometimes I think we don't give the blood of Christ enough credit.