Is baptism part of the new birth?

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes it is a commandment to do so. But for what PURPOSE?

5 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

To be saved!

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39

For remission of sins!

Note the verse you just quoted, it does NOT say "16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. Mark 16:16"

Again, I see the commandment to do so and perhaps someone who refuses to follow through with it may be in a certain amount of trouble based on their individual circumstances. I certainly felt the need to be baptized but I felt no more saved after I came out of the water than when I went in. For me, I felt the most "saved" for during the whole "three step process" was when I received the GIFT of the Holy Ghost, which happened simultaneously with repentance. Baptism took place a few weeks later.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

In all my life I've never even heard of a person dying on the way to be baptized. The guy on the cross was before the new testament church was established and was under the Old Covenant, because the testator of the New Covenant had not died.

Hitting the nail on the head!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

My response to THAT is always, so it was EASIER to be saved in the OT than the new?

Nobody was "saved" in the OT. Some were just spared punishment after death, waiting for Messiah to redeem them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

My response to THAT is always, so it was EASIER to be saved in the OT than the new?

How hard is it to get baptised?

And, why does the NT place an emphasis on baptism that all the 'baptism is not essential' crowd never do?

[strait shooter]

Lets see...where does it say in the scripture that baptism is NOT part of the New Birth or part of the salvation process???.....nowhere...and does it indicate anywhere that it is....PLENTY!!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Well 9 for 3 against so far. That's actually better than I would have hoped for.

[votivesoul]

No new birth without old death...

Romans 6:3-11,

3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As it is written:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit" (John 12:24).

Unless one is planted in the likeness of Christ's death through baptism, it's hard to see how they could ever honestly hope to walk in newness of life and partake in the likeness of His resurrection (without seriously wresting this verse, as Simon Peter once mentioned [and warned against] in 2 Peter 3:16).

Only when the old man is crucified with Christ and is buried with Him into death by baptism should one expect for the body of sins to be destroyed. Only then can such a person truly reckon himself or herself dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ; otherwise death would still have dominion over him or her (or else Paul's teaching here makes no applicable sense).

[votivesoul]

I write a more in-depth treatment at my blog, for any interested readers:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2013...missing-piece/

[seekerman]

I've never personally met anyone who argues against baptism, the question was is it necessary to miss hell, go to heaven. I've also never met anyone personally who believed that baptism saved them.

It's been a while since I've told the story of a visiting UPC minister at a church I was attending at the time. This is per the UPC minister, the validity of the story is dependent on one believing him or not.

As he told it, there was a young woman who attending a church service at the church which he was pastoring at the time. (As far as I know, he still pastors the same church). The young lady was convicted at a Sunday night service, came to the altar and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. She was scheduled for a baptismal service the following Wednesday but tragically was killed in a car accident on Tuesday. I remember his wrestling with the issue, was she saved or not. I'm paraphrasing, but his comment, from the pulpit, was 'well some of you may not examine such issues but we ministers think about such things'. He never came to a conclusion as to the destination of the unfortunate young woman, heaven or hell, but he was having issues dealing with a real life event.

If the young woman went (or is going) to hell, then she went (or is going) to hell full of the Holy Ghost. If the young woman went (or is going) to heaven, then she went (or is going) to heaven without baptism.

Must a person be baptized to saved (miss hell, go to heaven)? No. Will a person be baptized if they're a child of God, yes. In my opinion, if one believes themselves to be a child of God then there is no question about being baptized, they'll do it. But, that doesn't make them a child of God.

An important thing to remember, that may clear this up for some of you, is that we aren't redeemed by the water of the Lamb.

[seekerman]