Oneness Questions

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

I agree with these passages, interestingly enough,(Colossians 1:15)says Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation...that means He was "born of Mary" before Cain and Abel,

He was also the "First" to be raised from the dead, even (before) Lazarus, Jairus daughter. O.T. figures like the womans son that Elijah raised. etc.(Colossians 1:18)

He was the lamb "slain" from the "foundation' of the world. That means He was crucified before the world began. (REVELATION 13:8)

We dealt with that in the other thread, but you will not be satisfied to hear it once.

Ok, here we go again....

The prophecies in the O.T. are not bound by time...Notice carefully..Is.9:6
"For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given(present tense, around 1000 years PRIOR to the virgin birth)

Same with Ps. 22:1-18...it starts with "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" it goes into the details of the crucifixion in the PRESENT TENSE... (1000 years approx. BEFORE the crucifixion. )


Romans 4:17 says..."God spoke of things that are not, as though they were."

MEANING GOD SPOKE OF THINGS THAT WERE NON EXISTENT AS THOUGH IT ALREADY HAPPENED!

JESUS HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE MIND AND WILL OF GOD. HE(GOD) JUST READ THE WHOLE BOOK BEFORE IT HAPPENED...I am reconciling all of these passages that were written hundreds of years before they happened and nearly all of them are in the PRESENT TENSE. The standard prophecy uses future tense for things to come, BUT NOT MESSIANIC PROPHECIES...

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Luke

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

LOOK WHAT YOU QUOTED LUKE, YOUR (GOD) WAS BORN in verse 15
YOUR (GOD) WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD in verse 18.
WAS REV. 13:8 about his birth order also???(JESUS WAS "SLAIN" BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN)

I told you Jesus preexisted only in the "mind" of God.(read my previous threads again) But the scripture is YOUR PROBLEM to deal with here.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

LOOK WHAT YOU QUOTED LUKE, YOUR (GOD) WAS BORN in verse 15
YOUR (GOD) WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD in verse 18.


I told you Jesus preexisted in the "mind" of God.(read my previous thread again) But the scripture is YOUR PROBLEM to deal with here.

You should really read what i posted then you would have seen that as i pointed out the passage is not speaking of a literal birth but rather of rank.

Is Jesus not your God also?

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.




If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.

Please address the last paragraph of my post as you neglected to do so earlier.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Luke

You should really read what i posted then you would have seen that as i pointed out the passage is not speaking of a literal birth but rather of rank.

Is Jesus not your God also?

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.




If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.

Please address the last paragraph of my post as you neglected to do so earlier.

THIS IS GOOFY LUKE, I JUST QUOTED IT, you are seeing it cross eyed or something. ANSWER MY QUESTIONS...YOU MUST BE ON THE DEFENSE HERE.

YOUR "ETERNAL SON" WAS BORN...LUKE, AND YOUR "ETERNAL SON" DIED...LUKE, AND YOUR "ETERNAL SON" WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD...LUKE. DEAL WITH IT... AND ALL OF THIS WAS BEFORE CREATION...LUKE


THESE PASSAGES SPECIFICALLY SAY JESUS WAS (1st)FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE LIVING(every living thing)....SLAIN BEFORE THE BEGINNING(foundation) OF THE WORLD(1st to die)....AND(1st) FIRSTBORN FROM(resurrected) THE D-E-A-D(DEAD)

Your fancy bible school words and conjecture will not make these verses go away. They are stuck in your head for life...

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

THIS IS GOOFY LUKE, I JUST QUOTED IT, you are seeing it cross eyed or something. ANSWER MY QUESTIONS...YOU MUST BE ON THE DEFENSE HERE.

Why must i be on the defensive?

Originally Posted by Sean

YOUR "ETERNAL SON" WAS BORN...LUKE, AND YOUR "ETERNAL SON" DIED...LUKE, AND YOUR "ETERNAL SON" WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD...LUKE. DEAL WITH IT... AND ALL OF THIS WAS BEFORE CREATION...LUKE

Did you read what you just posted? There are two very fatal flaws with your comment:

1. Of who was Jesus born if He was born before creation and therefore there was no one to give bith to Him? There was no egg to fertilize?

2. You comment says all of this happened before creation but the passage if we are going to take the term firstborn to mean a literal birth then we must also accept the fourth word of that phrsae as literal and here your argument unravels. "the firstborn of every creature" creature is a created being how do you have a created being before creation?

Originally Posted by Sean

THESE PASSAGES SPECIFICALLY SAY JESUS WAS (1st)FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE LIVING(every living thing)....SLAIN BEFORE THE BEGINNING(foundation) OF THE WORLD(1st to die)....AND(1st) FIRSTBORN FROM(resurrected) THE D-E-A-D(DEAD)

It does not say that Jesus was the first born of all living things. Since He is the literal firstborn in your opinion does this mean that Adam and Eve came before Him since they were not born?

Originally Posted by Sean

Your fancy bible school words and conjecture will not make these verses go away. They are stuck in your head for life...

I am not trying to make the verse go away and i didnt realize that i was useing fancy words or conjecture. I also didnt remember mentioning that I attended bible college (though I did).

You are still avoiding that last paragraph though i can understand it is kind of hard to explain but I will repost it again in case you are just overlooking it.

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.