You Can Fake It All

[MissBrattified]

Prax is correct: the ability to read PM's doesn't come built into vBulletin. However, anyone who knows what they're doing and WANTS to can install a mod and have access to all PM's. Of course, not all mods/admins have enough access or knowledge to do that. If you're savvy with code, mods, apps, etc., then yes...you can read PM's. The average forum/owner/admin/moderator isn't going to read PM's because they don't know how to create access, (or have they have no inclination to do so) but it can be done. The more important issue at hand here is the implication that Prax was being dishonest when he gave his answer. If he was, another admin could easily step up and call him on it, so why would he bother?

As for missing admins--I'm one of them. I peek into this forum every now and then when I have time and I find absolutely trash threads like the one Charnock posted, I Am Glad I Left the UPC, and all the vitriol that followed. I admit--I don't want to stick around and deal with that. We're still in the UPC, and YES, I am aware that the organization contains imperfect people and people who abuse their authority, but that is NOT the common thread in our organization. My negative experience was at the hands of an independent church, and yes, it made me gun-shy, but I don't go around talking about all independent churches as if they're all guilty of my negative experience. That would be ignorance speaking, painting with a broad brush. That logic, on principle, is what causes racism and bias and hatred and even wars. IMO, when those types of thoughts pop into your head, they should be squelched as the irrational, biased, unfounded thoughts that they are and replaced with reality. Back to what I was saying...

I confess: I have been avoiding this forum like the plague. I don't like the fighting...over any topic. It used to be discussion--a long time ago, when this place was the FCF. It has failed to remain that and the hatred I feel pointed in my general direction when I read posts here is worse than anything I've ever encountered in real life. Charnock, in particular, has shocked me with hostility pointed at me personally that I never thought I warranted, in addition to pointing hostility toward an entire group of people--of whom he only personally knows a small handful. And yet he wants to be the one to sit in a seat of superiority and point the finger at all the horrible people in the UPC? If he was speaking with kindness and in a godly manner, and only about particular people and particular situations, I could accept his opinions, but as they stand, they are the epitome of hypocrisy. I have difficulty stomaching it.

You guys discuss "abuse" at the hands of the UPC and I can come here and experience "abuse" at the hands of people who hate the UPC. The irony is rich. FTR, I've never felt that from ILG or Dichotomy Girl, and I do believe there's some benefit in analyzing issues and problems and not sweeping things under the proverbial rug. At the same time, there's not a lot of benefit from living in pain, and dwelling in past hurts is precisely that.

Both ILG and DG have presented some of the most difficult topics that I have ever considered, but they almost always do it with kindness and reason, and I appreciate that. That's respectful dialogue. Some people USE threads like theirs to express their hostility and they DO lump everyone together and it's hurtful. Others use every thread as an opportunity to mock, condescend and feel superior to Christians or conservative Apostolics. The trend that I see (judging from the narrow slice in this forum) is that people who have left the UPC end up being hateful, bitter, rude, dismissive, superior jerks, and it's very difficult for ME not to broad brush right back. The only thing that keeps me in check on that point is knowing that my thoughts aren't always rational and I have to continue to address people as individuals. ILG and DG are two of the people who remind me that not everyone is the same, not everyone is unpleasant, not everyone is filled with hate.

It's extremely frustrating, and BTW, this is not just a response to this thread, but to Charnock's recently closed thread as well.

I feel for Prax, trying to moderate by himself at times, and I admit that sometimes I am a coward about dealing with you people. I do wonder sometimes if you realize (or care) that you are hurting good people just as much as you claim to have been hurt. What, do you think we all deserve it simply because there's an acronym on our church sign?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You guys discuss "abuse" at the hands of the UPC and I can come here and experience "abuse" at the hands of people who hate the UPC. The irony is rich. FTR, I've never felt that from ILG or Dichotomy Girl, and I do believe there's some benefit in analyzing issues and problems and not sweeping things under the proverbial rug. At the same time, there's not a lot of benefit from living in pain, and dwelling in past hurts is precisely that.

Both ILG and DG have presented some of the most difficult topics that I have ever considered, but they almost always do it with kindness and reason, and I appreciate that. That's respectful dialogue. Some people USE threads like theirs to express their hostility and they DO lump everyone together and it's hurtful. Others use every thread as an opportunity to mock, condescend and feel superior to Christians or conservative Apostolics. The trend that I see (judging from the narrow slice in this forum) is that people who have left the UPC end up being hateful, bitter, rude, dismissive, superior jerks, and it's very difficult for ME not to broad brush right back. The only thing that keeps me in check on that point is knowing that my thoughts aren't always rational and I have to continue to address people as individuals. ILG and DG are two of the people who remind me that not everyone is the same, not everyone is unpleasant, not everyone is filled with hate.

Thanks, Miss B. I really appreciate your post! Actually, while I was being repeatedly accused on this thread of hating UPC'ers and wanting to put them all into one box, you are one of the people I thought of. You are a very sincere, respectful person and are able to discuss issues without broad brushing everyone who has left or who posts on controversial topics as being bitter and hateful.

People ebb and flow. Healing ebbs and flows. People will talk and then box things up for a long time and then talk again sometime down the road when something makes them think of a subject. We all do this. This doesn't mean that because a person brings up a controversial topic years after they left that they are sitting at home sucking their thumb wondering how to get back at the evil church and people who hurt them. To the contrary, that would not be healthy at all. The whole point in this exercise is to discuss like iron sharpeneth iron. We can all gain and benefit from this.

As to certain people who are lashing out. And I say this because it is coming from both directions, it isn't healthy or productive to lash out and call people names and belittle them. It is really, really frustrating to me when I want to discuss an issue and the whole topic degrades into nothing but a mud slinging session. I feel like the whole issue that needs to be discussed gets lost underneath piles and piles of manure. I usually try for a while and then, often walk away because it feels useless. Then, later on down the road, I bring it back up again, after getting my courage up from some life event or personal growth of some kind.

Posting on these topics can be totally emotionally draining, but it can also be rewarding in certain ways. The rewards never come from slamming someone or trying to make someone feel like they are less than. The rewards come when there is an understanding breakthrough from either or both sides. There is a difference between unity and uniformity. Those who press uniformity have a different goal than I do. My goal is unity. Unity comes from, not agreement, but from understanding and mutual respect.

Again, Miss B. Thank you very much.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

Thanks, Miss B. I really appreciate your post! Actually, while I was being repeatedly accused on this thread of hating UPC'ers and wanting to put them all into one box, you are one of the people I thought of. You are a very sincere, respectful person and are able to discuss issues without broad brushing everyone who has left or who posts on controversial topics as being bitter and hateful.

People ebb and flow. Healing ebbs and flows. People will talk and then box things up for a long time and then talk again sometime down the road when something makes them think of a subject. We all do this. This doesn't mean that because a person brings up a controversial topic years after they left that they are sitting at home sucking their thumb wondering how to get back at the evil church and people who hurt them. To the contrary, that would not be healthy at all. The whole point in this exercise is to discuss like iron sharpeneth iron. We can all gain and benefit from this.

That's very true, and I occasionally take my *things* out of the box and discuss them. (Usually with my husband.) I can't do it for long, though, because old feelings can come flying back and I don't want to live there. I don't know if that means I haven't truly gotten over the hurt or if it will always be that way, to an extent.

As to certain people who are lashing out. And I say this because it is coming from both directions, it isn't healthy or productive to lash out and call people names and belittle them. It is really, really frustrating to me when I want to discuss an issue and the whole topic degrades into nothing but a mud slinging session. I feel like the whole issue that needs to be discussed gets lost underneath piles and piles of manure. I usually try for a while and then, often walk away because it feels useless. Then, later on down the road, I bring it back up again, after getting my courage up from some life event or personal growth of some kind.

Posting on these topics can be totally emotionally draining, but it can also be rewarding in certain ways. The rewards never come from slamming someone or trying to make someone feel like they are less than. The rewards come when there is an understanding breakthrough from either or both sides. There is a difference between unity and uniformity. Those who press uniformity have a different goal than I do. My goal is unity. Unity comes from, not agreement, but from understanding and mutual respect.

Again, Miss B. Thank you very much.

Yes, and when we value people we strive to understand them and respect them. When I see people being mean, hostile, disrespectful, etc., it tells me they have devalued their "victim" in their minds. That, in and of itself, is unChristian, because every person matters to God.

[ILG]

That's very true, and I occasionally take my *things* out of the box and discuss them. (Usually with my husband.) I can't do it for long, though, because old feelings can come flying back and I don't want to live there. I don't know if that means I haven't truly gotten over the hurt or if it will always be that way, to an extent.

My goal is to be able to openly discuss these issues anytime, anyplace, and feel comfortable with it. I am much closer to that than I have ever been before. I guess I feel that way because of my upbringing. My Dad was an alcoholic while I was growing up and although we rarely sit around talking about it, I have a good relationship with my parents now and at any time I wanted to, I could sit down and discuss it with my Dad. He has said that the years we needed him the most, he was there the least. He would never accuse me of "whining" or "hating" him or being bitter or resentful if I wanted to discuss it. On the flip-side, although it will always affect me, I take it out of the box on occasions when I see there is a fact of it that I should look at. To me, we have come to a healthy place.

Because I am dealing with an organization in this instance, it will never be quite like that. But I do know that the healthier that people are, the more able they are to listen and discuss issues rather than accuse the person bringing up the topic, especially if the person bringing up the topic is doing so in a respectful manner.

Yes, and when we value people we strive to understand them and respect them. When I see people being mean, hostile, disrespectful, etc., it tells me they have devalued their "victim" in their minds. That, in and of itself, is unChristian, because every person matters to God.

Yes, I totally agree! This shouldn't be about "winning". This should be about coming together in mutual understanding, even if we disagree on subjects.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You guys discuss "abuse" at the hands of the UPC and I can come here and experience "abuse" at the hands of people who hate the UPC. The irony is rich. FTR, I've never felt that from ILG or Dichotomy Girl, and I do believe there's some benefit in analyzing issues and problems and not sweeping things under the proverbial rug. At the same time, there's not a lot of benefit from living in pain, and dwelling in past hurts is precisely that.

Both ILG and DG have presented some of the most difficult topics that I have ever considered, but they almost always do it with kindness and reason, and I appreciate that. That's respectful dialogue. Some people USE threads like theirs to express their hostility and they DO lump everyone together and it's hurtful. Others use every thread as an opportunity to mock, condescend and feel superior to Christians or conservative Apostolics. The trend that I see (judging from the narrow slice in this forum) is that people who have left the UPC end up being hateful, bitter, rude, dismissive, superior jerks, and it's very difficult for ME not to broad brush right back. The only thing that keeps me in check on that point is knowing that my thoughts aren't always rational and I have to continue to address people as individuals. ILG and DG are two of the people who remind me that not everyone is the same, not everyone is unpleasant, not everyone is filled with hate.

Thank you very much for this. I've popped in at various times over the past years, but I came back recently because I've been struggling with the whole I want to take my daughter to church and my daughter allows it, and well, this was always where I came to discuss spiritual issues.

And there are some great people that are still here, but I confess, I miss many of the old faces, those who I might have vehemently disagreed with, and shocked, but always with love. It makes me sad, but I guess, seasons change....

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

That's very true, and I occasionally take my *things* out of the box and discuss them. (Usually with my husband.) I can't do it for long, though, because old feelings can come flying back and I don't want to live there. I don't know if that means I haven't truly gotten over the hurt or if it will always be that way, to an extent.

People are different, and have different struggles, and heal differently. But I can say that for me, the emotional component is completely gone. (I can still see some things academically as being bad or hurtful or unhealthy, etc, but the negative emotions are no longer there), and that has freed me to see things more clearly.

We all know that emotions can overwhelm, so for a long time all I could see/remember was the bad. But the past 5 years have given me clarity, and I can see the good things that came out of my experiences, the blessings, the strengthening of character, and that it put me on my current path, with a daughter I never thought I would have, and a husband I love more than anything.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

...We all know that emotions can overwhelm, so for a long time all I could see/remember was the bad. But the past 5 years have given me clarity, and I can see the good things that came out of my experiences, the blessings, the strengthening of character, and that it put me on my current path, with a daughter I never thought I would have, and a husband I love more than anything.

I share that deep appreciation for my life as a whole, even though my only take away from some painful events may be a life lesson or "eye opener."

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Prax is correct: the ability to read PM's doesn't come built into vBulletin. However, anyone who knows what they're doing and WANTS to can install a mod and have access to all PM's. Of course, not all mods/admins have enough access or knowledge to do that. If you're savvy with code, mods, apps, etc., then yes...you can read PM's. The average forum/owner/admin/moderator isn't going to read PM's because they don't know how to create access, (or have they have no inclination to do so) but it can be done. The more important issue at hand here is the implication that Prax was being dishonest when he gave his answer. If he was, another admin could easily step up and call him on it, so why would he bother?

As for missing admins--I'm one of them. I peek into this forum every now and then when I have time and I find absolutely trash threads like the one Charnock posted, I Am Glad I Left the UPC, and all the vitriol that followed. I admit--I don't want to stick around and deal with that. We're still in the UPC, and YES, I am aware that the organization contains imperfect people and people who abuse their authority, but that is NOT the common thread in our organization. My negative experience was at the hands of an independent church, and yes, it made me gun-shy, but I don't go around talking about all independent churches as if they're all guilty of my negative experience. That would be ignorance speaking, painting with a broad brush. That logic, on principle, is what causes racism and bias and hatred and even wars. IMO, when those types of thoughts pop into your head, they should be squelched as the irrational, biased, unfounded thoughts that they are and replaced with reality. Back to what I was saying...

I confess: I have been avoiding this forum like the plague. I don't like the fighting...over any topic. It used to be discussion--a long time ago, when this place was the FCF. It has failed to remain that and the hatred I feel pointed in my general direction when I read posts here is worse than anything I've ever encountered in real life. Charnock, in particular, has shocked me with hostility pointed at me personally that I never thought I warranted, in addition to pointing hostility toward an entire group of people--of whom he only personally knows a small handful. And yet he wants to be the one to sit in a seat of superiority and point the finger at all the horrible people in the UPC? If he was speaking with kindness and in a godly manner, and only about particular people and particular situations, I could accept his opinions, but as they stand, they are the epitome of hypocrisy. I have difficulty stomaching it.

You guys discuss "abuse" at the hands of the UPC and I can come here and experience "abuse" at the hands of people who hate the UPC. The irony is rich. FTR, I've never felt that from ILG or Dichotomy Girl, and I do believe there's some benefit in analyzing issues and problems and not sweeping things under the proverbial rug. At the same time, there's not a lot of benefit from living in pain, and dwelling in past hurts is precisely that.

Both ILG and DG have presented some of the most difficult topics that I have ever considered, but they almost always do it with kindness and reason, and I appreciate that. That's respectful dialogue. Some people USE threads like theirs to express their hostility and they DO lump everyone together and it's hurtful. Others use every thread as an opportunity to mock, condescend and feel superior to Christians or conservative Apostolics. The trend that I see (judging from the narrow slice in this forum) is that people who have left the UPC end up being hateful, bitter, rude, dismissive, superior jerks, and it's very difficult for ME not to broad brush right back. The only thing that keeps me in check on that point is knowing that my thoughts aren't always rational and I have to continue to address people as individuals. ILG and DG are two of the people who remind me that not everyone is the same, not everyone is unpleasant, not everyone is filled with hate.

It's extremely frustrating, and BTW, this is not just a response to this thread, but to Charnock's recently closed thread as well.

I feel for Prax, trying to moderate by himself at times, and I admit that sometimes I am a coward about dealing with you people. I do wonder sometimes if you realize (or care) that you are hurting good people just as much as you claim to have been hurt. What, do you think we all deserve it simply because there's an acronym on our church sign?

I harbor no hostility toward you. I just don't respect the way you often defend the indefensible. The thread I started about the UPC was a tongue-in-cheek response to Praxeas' overreaction to anything and everything anyone ever posts even slightly unflattering about the org.

Like you, I rarely post here. It has little to do with the content.

Mostly, I've moved on, but I logged on for the first time in weeks and saw that ILG was being abused by Prax, again, and responded.

I am very sorry that you have such a low opinion of me but, like you, I don't want to pretend interest in someone who obviously despises my presence.

I wish you nothing but good, and every happiness.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I harbor no hostility toward you. I just don't respect the way you often defend the indefensible. The thread I started about the UPC was a tongue-in-cheek response to Praxeas' overreaction to anything and everything anyone ever posts even slightly unflattering about the org.

I'm curious as to what indefensible thing I've defended. And what you posted wasn't "slightly unflattering." It was harsh and polarizing, which has been your modus operandi ever since you moved on.

Beyond that, you come in here every now and then with guns blazing shooting down everything that moves the wrong direction, and your harsh attitude undermines your credibility. It's quite the contradiction to oppose murder while mowing down people with a machine gun.