All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

The posts speaks for itself. I'll just comment on the last line. Why sit through a Bible class at an Apostolic church? I sat in an Apostolic church for years, attended every camp meeting , youth rally, special service I could and did my share of preaching. Even went through over a years worth of personal Bible study with my pastor after my baptism (I was baptized the first day I attended a oneness church). I read the required books for licensing. I taught Into His Marvelous Light and Search for Truth (#2) several times in home bible studies.

Despite all if this I never heard expository preaching (didn't even know what it was until after I left the "apostolic" movement). Never heard Romans, Galatians, Ephesians (or any book, not even Jude) taught or explained. The totality of my exposure to solid Bible teaching and theology in over 2,000 services. It was either the basic "apostolic"distinctives (oneness, baptism, tongues, holiness standards) or a scripture taken out of context for an emotional reaction. After 10 years in the movement I realized that I couldn't even define grace. Yet this is typical of oneness pentecostals, even the "systematic theology" taught in UPC Bible colleges is bare bones and revolves around the distinctives of the movement. The theology is weak. The exegesis is weak. Why would anyone want to attend a Bible class at an Apostolic church by someone who doesn't even know basic hermeneutics?

I wish you could attend my church. all we preach is Romans, Galatians, etc. You are right about the lack of expository preaching and the continual emphasis on "distinctives". But I lovingly I admonish you that an over emphasis on those distinctives does not mean they are not true.
Some will call me a liberal, but I do not care. It is soteriologically impossible for someone who has been baptized in the Holy Ghost, and who is living for God, to go to hell in spite of the fact they had a less than perfect water baptism. In Romans 8:1-2 Paul makes it clear that those who have received the Spirit are no longer under condemnation, and are free from the law of sin and death. I think I should post those verses....

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Deal with it Brother Epley.

Furthermore, God credits those who have the Spirit as having met all the righteous requirements of the Law through Christ's death. ...

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Oh and guess what else my extremist brothers who set yourself up as judges? Those Trinitarians who have the Holy Ghost are not in the flesh, and belong to Christ in spite of their imperfect doctrine of God and in spite of the fact that the man who baptized them messed it up......

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Furthermore, those same Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians have life because of the imputed righteousness of Christ that is in them.....

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Continuing, those Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians will one day have their mortal bodies quickened just like those Holy Ghost filled Oneness folk...

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Next, those Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians who are mortifying the works of the flesh by the Spirit will live, just like us Apostolics....

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Finally, those very imperfect Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians who though they have imperfect doctrine, are spirit led and Spirit adopted children of God, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ......

4 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

The Apostle Peter declared in Acts 5 this concerning Holy Ghost baptism....

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

When God gives someone the Holy Ghost, he is declaring that that person has "obeyed" the gospel according to Peter. What gospel? The gospel Peter mentioned in verses 29-31....

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians believe that God raised Jesus, exalted him, and he alone can forgive sins. When they submit to that message, God fills them with his Spirit just like us.

Is there doctrine perfect? No. Should the preacher have invoked the name of Jesus when he baptized them? Yes. Should we try to lead them into more truth? Yes. But we should admonish them as BROTHERS, for all the reasons I mentioned in this post.

Our very doctrine concerning Holy Ghost baptism, that it is not some "second work of grace subsequent to salvation", but that it is indeed the birth of the Spirit, dictates that we accept these people as brothers. God has obviously accepted them as his children by giving them his Spirit.

Sadly, less and less of members of Trinitarian Pentecostal churches are even being told about Spirit baptism. Their leaders are turning their backs on what truth they did have.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Some will call me a liberal, but I do not care. It is soteriologically impossible for someone who has been baptized in the Holy Ghost, and who is living for God, to go to hell in spite of the fact they had a less than perfect water baptism. In Romans 8:1-2 Paul makes it clear that those who have received the Spirit are no longer under condemnation, and are free from the law of sin and death. I think I should post those verses....

...

Oh and guess what else my extremist brothers who set yourself up as judges? Those Trinitarians who have the Holy Ghost are not in the flesh, and belong to Christ in spite of their imperfect doctrine of God and in spite of the fact that the man who baptized them messed it up......

I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 8:1-2. One has to read the last few verses of Romans 7 in order to understand Romans 8:1-2. The entire concept using both chapters is saying that walking after the flesh is trying to serve God with self-effort rather than reliance on the Spirit's strength. So, don't walk after the flesh after you are in Christ.

Since the flesh is what we wind up serving the law of sin with, despite our will's efforts to do good, then Rom 8:1 says that those of us who refuse to walk after the flesh are the ones not condemned. This is not saying that everyone who is in Christ is not condemned. It is saying that those who walk not after the flesh and are in Christ are not condemned. One can walk after the flesh while still being in Christ, as Paul did according to chapter 7 when he willed to do good using fleshly effort and could not accomplish it.

And the condemnation is not a hell-thing either. It's the condemnation Paul described in Chapter 7, again, when he frustratingly tried to do good and could not succeed.

Walking after the Spirit is not having the Spirit baptism at all! The walk does not come by default with the Spirit. The walk is a conscious effort based upon the awareness of how the Law of the Spirit works. And that law states that the self-effort described in ch 7 fails and one must instead yield to the Spirit for strength (Rom 6:13). And all of that stems from baptism into Christ's death, which an incorrect baptism does not afford (Rom 6:3-6).

People read Rom 8:1 without understanding chapters 6 and 7 first and get Rom 8:1 all wrong.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 8:1-2. One has to read the last few verses of Romans 7 in order to understand Romans 8:1-2. The entire concept using both chapters is saying that walking after the flesh is trying to serve God with self-effort rather than reliance on the Spirit's strength. So, don't walk after the flesh after you are in Christ.

Since the flesh is what we wind up serving the law of sin with, despite our will's efforts to do good, then Rom 8:1 says that those of us who refuse to walk after the flesh are the ones not condemned. This is not saying that everyone who is in Christ is not condemned. It is saying that those who walk not after the flesh and are in Christ are not condemned. One can walk after the flesh while still being in Christ, as Paul did according to chapter 7 when he willed to do good using fleshly effort and could not accomplish it.

And the condemnation is not a hell-thing either. It's the condemnation Paul described in Chapter 7, again, when he frustratingly tried to do good and could not succeed.

Walking after the Spirit is not having the Spirit baptism at all! The walk does not come by default with the Spirit. The walk is a conscious effort based upon the awareness of how the Law of the Spirit works. And that law states that the self-effort described in ch 7 fails and one must instead yield to the Spirit for strength (Rom 6:13). And all of that stems from baptism into Christ's death, which an incorrect baptism does not afford (Rom 6:3-6).

People read Rom 8:1 without understanding chapters 6 and 7 first and get Rom 8:1 all wrong.

Let me explain why I cannot agree with your interpretation of Romans 8.

In this chapter Paul is contrasting two things...living in the Spirit's dominion or living in the dominion of the flesh.

He is not referring to Christians who are stumbling or sinning. Christians do sin. But we are not under the dominion of sin as those in the flesh are. He is not saying in verse one that we can joggl back and forth from condemnation to no condemnation by how well we perform.

You say "walking after the Spirit is not having the Spirit baptism at all". Paul says just the opposite...

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

This is the contrast he is making. I sometimes let my flesh get the best of me. But that does not mean that I am "in the flesh". The "flesh" is a completely different realm. I walk in the Spirit by virtue of the fact that the Spirit lives in me, even though at times I may not seem very "spiritual". Certainly I can leave the lordship of Christ if I choose, but that is a different matter.

As for Romans 7, look at verse 24-25...

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then in verse 1-4 of chapter 8 he tells us how God delivered us from the body of this death through Jesus Christ our Lord....

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And all of that stems from baptism into Christ's death, which an incorrect baptism does not afford (Rom 6:3-6).

I think you are underestimating what God is doing and declaring when he gives someone his Spirit, even if their baptism was imperfect.

And the condemnation is not a hell-thing either. It's the condemnation Paul described in Chapter 7, again, when he frustratingly tried to do good and could not succeed.

People read Rom 8:1 without understanding chapters 6 and 7 first and get Rom 8:1 all wrong

Man I hate to disagree, but I say that one cannot understand Romans 6, 7, or 8 without going even further back in the epistle to chapter 3....

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

That's a hell thing. Paul builds from here until he tells us how to escape the hell thing in chapter 8. In ch 8 verse 2 he says that the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is freeing us from "the law of sin and death". That's a hell thing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Let me explain why I cannot agree with your interpretation of Romans 8.

In this chapter Paul is contrasting two things...living in the Spirit's dominion or living in the dominion of the flesh.

Right. But we have to read the context from Chapter 6 and chapter 7 to see what that struggle actually is.

He is not referring to Christians who are stumbling or sinning. Christians do sin. But we are not under the dominion of sin as those in the flesh are. He is not saying in verse one that we can joggl back and forth from condemnation to no condemnation by how well we perform.

I never said that. I see chapter 7 ending with the note that the summary of Paul's struggle in wanting to do good but nit doing it is because with the flesh we serve the law of sin. Then chapter 8 immediately mentions to not walk after that flesh. Are you saying the context breaks between the last verse of chapter 7 and the first of chapter 8?

We all know the original letter tot he Romans was not divided by chapters. So the context cannot be broken.

Rom 7:23-25 KJV But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice the twin references to the FLESH. Paul described in ch 7 that he, himself, in his mind served the law of God. He willed to do good. But he found that his flesh carried out the law of sin. So, chapter 8 says we are not to walk after that flesh that he served the law of sin with. How is that done? Go back to chapter 6 and see that we present ourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and then yield to the Spirit for our members to be His instruments.

That is the undeniable context.

You say "walking after the Spirit is not having the Spirit baptism at all". Paul says just the opposite...

You misread me. Sorry for my lack of clarity. I meant that just because one has the Spirit it does not mean one walks by after it by default. I should have written it saying, "It is not simply having the Spirit." Walking after the Spirit does not mean one HAS THE SPIRIT IN THEM. It is way beyond simply having the Spirit. The all-important issue of once we have it is that we must LEARN to walk after it. You spoke as though we walk after it by default just because we have it.

There is a LAW to the Spirit. This means there is a way in which the Spirit operates and there are requirements for us to abide by before the Spirit can work in us. Just simply having the baptism of the Spirit is not all there is to it.

This is the contrast he is making. I sometimes let my flesh get the best of me. But that does not mean that I am "in the flesh".

No, you are in Christ but are walking after the flesh when you sin. The walk after the flesh is not the actual sinning, but is the cause of the sinning. In the times we sin, we were not relying on the power of the Spirit. In other words, we were not walking after the Spirit. We were doing what Paul did in Rom 7. He WANTED to do good, which everyone who is in Christ wants. But he lacked awareness of how to succeed in not sinning. He was unaware of Rom 6:13. He walked us through his own dilemma to explain why believers sin when he wrote ch. 7. He already had the victory when he wrote ch. 7, but he puts the reader into the shoes of someone who does not walk after the Spirit though they be in Christ.

The "flesh" is a completely different realm. I walk in the Spirit by virtue of the fact that the Spirit lives in me, even though at times I may not seem very "spiritual". Certainly I can leave the lordship of Christ if I choose, but that is a different matter.

There is where you get offkey. When we walk after the Spirit, the law of the Spirit of life strengthens us so that we do not sin.

Enjoying the law of the Spirit is like enjoying the law of aerodynamics. So long as we are in a certain shaped vehicle with wings that are shaped and curved a specific way, and that vehicle is moving so as to let the wind beneath it lift the wings, we overcome the law of gravity. But get out of that plane and we succumb.

Similarly, so long as we rely upon the Spirit within us to strengthen us to not sin, we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But as soon as we leave that manner of reliance and revert to willing ourselves to do good instead of relying in faith on the Spirit, we use fleshly energy alone and we succumb. We are still in Christ, but have the condemnation of not being able to overcome sin. This is not talking about the condemnation of knowing we're going to hell. It's the condemnation from the immediate context of Ch. 7 in crying WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM.

How many of us were frustrated like that while we served the Lord in seeing us fail when we did not want to? 8:1 let's us know you can be in Christ but still walk after the flesh.

Walking after the flesh is trying to serve God through fleshly energy and self will without any reliance in faith and prayer for God to strengthen us. Walking after the Spirit is Rom 6:13 instead.

As for Romans 7, look at verse 24-25...

Then in verse 1-4 of chapter 8 he tells us how God delivered us from the body of this death through Jesus Christ our Lord....

Chapter 6 tells us HOW God delivered us, not chapter 8:1-2. Ch 8:1-2 explains that we can either walk after the Spirit or after the flesh. It's our choice. We do not walk after the Spirit simply because Jesus delivered us form the body of death. He delivered Paul from the body of death when Paul struggled with wanting to do good but being unable to do it. But although he was delivered from the body of death through Christ's death that died for us (you have to see 7:4 to get that part), he continued to walk after the flesh.

So 8:1-2 says that if we walk after the Spirit, we will kick into effect the law of the Spirit and not sin.

You speak s though you believe we automatically walk after the Spirit simply because the Spirit ins in us. If that were true, then why did Paul put a stipulation on having no condemnation? he said there is no condemnation to everyone who is in Christ IF THEY WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH. That means we have a conscious decision to make and our responsibility is to walk after the Spirit by making the choice to do so after knowing what walking after the Spirit means. Most do not know. It is, again, doing what 6:13 told us to do.

I think you are underestimating what God is doing and declaring when he gives someone his Spirit, even if their baptism was imperfect.

I prayed and grappled with ROMANS 6-8 FOR LITERALLY YEARS. I wound up writing three books on the issue. That does not mean I cannot be wrong. Just a request to lilsten for a moment in case I am onto something. So, I ask you to consider the stipulation in Rom 8:1 of freedom from condemnation when one is in Christ, IF ONE DOES NOT WALK AFTER THE FLESH. That implies that you can be in Christ and walk after the flesh. That is what Paul described in 7:19-23.

When the baptism is not right, there is no baptism. That means, there is no inclusion into Christ's death, because baptism into His death means we have his death counted as our own. And that is required to be able to present ourselves ALIVE FORM THE DEAD in 6:13.

Man I hate to disagree, but I say that one cannot understand Romans 6, 7, or 8 without going even further back in the epistle to chapter 3....

But chapter 3 is simply saying that JEWS were told they were wretched while they lived under law. It was telling us that Gentiles were widely known to be sinners, but so are Jews, since law verified that. I need to know what you say about chapter 3 to continue here. So while I answer as I read, I do not know what you said below. I will pause and read more now.

That's a hell thing. Paul builds from here until he tells us how to escape the hell thing in chapter 8. In ch 8 verse 2 he says that the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is freeing us from "the law of sin and death". That's a hell thing.

I really believe you missed the context of that verse. Yes THAT is a hell thing. But it just listed statements from the LAW before that verse. And all those statements are condemning people for sinfulness. And the very first part of the verse says that THOSE STATEMENTS were from law and were written to THOSE UNDER LAW. And the reason he said all the world is therefore guilty before God after saying that is because it NAILED THE JEWS proving they were sinners despite their life under God's law.

Chapter 1 nails the gentiles as sinners with homosexuality, idolatry, etc. But Chapter 2 says the Jews better not gloat over the sinful gentiles, because even though Jews had law they were just as sinful because they could not keep law. Chapter 3 supports that even more by quoting Law to prove JEWS UNDER LAW WERE SINFUL. And the reason it says this proved all the world guilty is because gentiles were commonly looked down upon by Jews as guilty, and LAW comes to show EVEN JEWS ARE GUILTY, making both gentiles AND JEWS, both, in need of deliverance even though Jews had law.

So, the point is that Law cam eto PROVE people who even are cultured by a Law from God ARE STILL SINNERS. Therefore, all the world, those under law or not, are sinners. That is what that verse meant. And the only connection that has to chapters 6 through 8 is to prove that everyone needs baptism into Christ's death to be freed from sin, and then go further and walk after the Spirit once one has the Spirit by yielding to God all of one's life to see God strengthen us to NOT COMMIT SINS.

Freedom from SIN is not as far as freedom from committing SINS. That is the lesson of Romans.