Your tithes were already paid.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

1.The HOLY tithe, as the word is used by Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus, was always only FOOD inside God's HOLY land. Don't just disagree -- give me texts please.

2. MONEY WAS NOT TITHED: Although money in the form of gold and silver existed in the Bible and was essential for sanctuary/temple worship, money was never included in any of the 16 descriptions of the holy tithe.

One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food was used for money. That argument misses the point! While it is undeniable that food was also used for barter, it is also undeniable that money was never used for tithing.

Genesis alone contains the word money in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the holy tithe is described in Leviticus 27:30-34. The words jewelry, gold, silver and shekel also appear often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Abram was very rich in silver and gold (Gen 13:2); money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12+); Abimelech gave Abraham 1000 pieces of silver (Gen 20:16); Abraham paid 400 pieces of silver for land (Gen 23:9-16); Joseph was sold for silver pieces (Gen 37:28); slaves bought freedom (Lev 25:47-53). Court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all), sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12+), vows (Lev 27:3-7), poll taxes (Numb 3:47+), alcoholic drinks (Deut 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deut 22:29) included money.

Joseph gave Benjamin 300 pieces of silver (Gen 45:22). In Genesis 47:15-17, food was used for barter only after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore money was common. Yet, from God’s inspired Word, the holy contents from Leviticus to Luke never include money from non-food products and trades. Pagan money with pagan images could not be brought into the temple as offerings.

If you disagree, please give texts.

3. Money with any pagan image or language on it was not accepted at the OT temple. It was exchanged for worthless temple money."Whose image is on it?

4. You say tithing under the Law is irrelevant. Why? The Law's description is used by Moses, Malachi and Jesus? Was it irrelevant to them. Your man-made description is irrelevant to me.

5. Tithing, child sacrifice, temple prostitution and sodomy all preceded the law and were world-wide. That doesn't make them eternal moral principles.

I will try to get to this some time this week. I am very busy and I am sure you are as well. Since I am here and have but a couple moments I will ask this:
You have stated that money is used in the text of Genesis 32 times. The term used is a translation.

The term "money" for example is the Hebrew word keseph.
According to BDB
BDB Definition:
1) silver, money
1a) silver
1a1) as metal
1a2) as ornament
1a3) as colour
1b) money, shekels, talents

Also in Genesis it states: (Gen 43:21 KJV) And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.

The "money" was not currency. It was precious metals that was weighed out in bartering. Currency, as is known in the 21st century was not in existence until the end of the OT. The Bible was not written in a vacuum as you well know. It was written in a historical context. The context of money then is not even close to today.

BTW there is no need for you to get testy with me. I have been respectful of you.
(Your man-made description is irrelevant to me)

Abraham did not practice child sacrifice, temple prostitution or sodomy. Therein lies the difference. He did practice tithing.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pliny

I will try to get to this some time this week. I am very busy and I am sure you are as well. Since I am here and have but a couple moments I will ask this:
You have stated that money is used in the text of Genesis 32 times. The term used is a translation.

The term "money" for example is the Hebrew word keseph.
According to BDB
BDB Definition:
1) silver, money
1a) silver
1a1) as metal
1a2) as ornament
1a3) as colour
1b) money, shekels, talents

Also in Genesis it states: (Gen 43:21 KJV) And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.

The "money" was not currency. It was precious metals that was weighed out in bartering. Currency, as is known in the 21st century was not in existence until the end of the OT. The Bible was not written in a vacuum as you well know. It was written in a historical context. The context of money then is not even close to today.

BTW there is no need for you to get testy with me. I have been respectful of you.
(Your man-made description is irrelevant to me)

Abraham did not practice child sacrifice, temple prostitution or sodomy. Therein lies the difference. He did practice tithing.

What is currency? Non edible object used in exchange for goods or services (as paper, coin, etc).

If I trade you a 1 ounce gold ring for, say, a cow, I just bought the cow with gold. It wouldn't matter if the gold was in the form of a flat disk with Caesar's inscription on it or if it was in the form of a size 3 wedding ring with no diamond from Zale's.

I think your attempting to discount the use of gold, silver, precious metals, etc in the old testament as money is far fetched and stretching things.

In Deuteronomy 14 I believe it says people who could not carry oxen, sheep, produce etc to Jerusalem were to sell the products for MONEY and then upon arrival in Jerusalem they were to use the MONEY to BUY oxen, produce, wine, etc and pay their tithe WITH THAT (by eating it, in fact, along with Levites, strangers, widows, and orphans).

So the apparent claim that money in Genesis or the OT in general is irrelevant is, well, irrelevant. Things were used as currency, that is, non edible items were used as a medium of exchange for edible foodstuffs.

Gold has been money since the beginning of recorded history. Everyone outside the CNN crowd knows that.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is currency? Non edible object used in exchange for goods or services (as paper, coin, etc).

If I trade you a 1 ounce gold ring for, say, a cow, I just bought the cow with gold. It wouldn't matter if the gold was in the form of a flat disk with Caesar's inscription on it or if it was in the form of a size 3 wedding ring with no diamond from Zale's.

I think your attempting to discount the use of gold, silver, precious metals, etc in the old testament as money is far fetched and stretching things.

In Deuteronomy 14 I believe it says people who could not carry oxen, sheep, produce etc to Jerusalem were to sell the products for MONEY and then upon arrival in Jerusalem they were to use the MONEY to BUY oxen, produce, wine, etc and pay their tithe WITH THAT (by eating it, in fact, along with Levites, strangers, widows, and orphans).

So the apparent claim that money in Genesis or the OT in general is irrelevant is, well, irrelevant. Things were used as currency, that is, non edible items were used as a medium of exchange for edible foodstuffs.

Gold has been money since the beginning of recorded history. Everyone outside the CNN crowd knows that.

Thank you for your opinion. I disagree.

Currency is FAR different from bartering with weights and precious metals and jewels.
Currency, as it is known today, did not exist until around 600 BC.
Based upon this polemic there was never a need for the innovation known as currency.
Necessity IS the mother of invention.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Thank you for your opinion. I disagree.

Currency is FAR different from bartering with weights and precious metals and jewels.
Currency, as it is known today, did not exist until around 600 BC.
Based upon this polemic there was never a need for the innovation known as currency.
Necessity IS the mother of invention.

From Webster's 1828:
currency

CURRENCY, n. [See Current.]

1. Literally, flowing, running or passing; a continued or uninterrupted course, like that of a stream; as the currency of time.
2. A continued course in public opinion, belief or reception; a passing from person to person, or from age to age; a, a report has had a long or general currency.
3. A continual passing from hand to hand, as coin or bills of credit; circulation; as the currency of cents, or of English crowns; the currency of bank bills or treasury notes.
4. Fluency; readiness of utterance; but in this sense we generally use fluency.
5. General estimation; the rate at which any thing is generally valued.
He takes greatness of kingdoms according to their bulk and currency, and not after intrinsic value.
6. That which is current or in circulation, as a medium of trade. The word may be applied to coins, or to bills issued by authority. It is often applied to bank notes, and to notes issued by government.

Let us assume for the moment that you are correct, that 'currency' did not exist prior to 600 BC. If that were true, then the tithe does not respect currency, since the Law was given almost 1000 years prior to the invention of 'currency'. Therefore, nobody is or can be required to pay tithes of 'currency', such as cash, coin, check, or electronic funds transfer or direct deposit, credit accounts, stocks, bonds, bearrer bonds, bank drafts, bank notes, promissory notes, etc.

Thank you for making our point.

Now, as for the rest of your post, you said that based upon my argument, there was never a need for the invention of currency. I am amazed you would say such a thing. Surely you are smarter than that. Who wants to carry gold nuggets, when they can carry a gold coin, with a government's seal of authenticity and guarantee of value and actual metallic content and purity? And who wants to carry gold coins when they carry slips of paper equivalent in exchange? And who wants to carry slips of paper when they carry a plastic card? And who wants to carry a plastic card when they could just scan their iris, fingerprints, palm print, or do a DNA sample, or retinal scan, or face print? (Or scan an implanted biochip? lol)

Gold and silver, jewels, nuggets, rocks (diamonds, rubies, etc), rings, crowns, shields, etc etc etc were used in barter. Barter means trading one thing for another. If I trade or barter with you for something, and what you give me is something I can for example eat or wipe my behind with, and what I give you is something you can trade or barter for something you can actually directly use, consume, eat, wipe, or whatever, then I gave you MONEY or it's direct equivalent - a means of exchange.

Something that has EQUIVALENT value to an end-use product or service.

But hey lookie here:

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

Wow, who'd a thunk it? When the law of the tithe was given, they had MONEY! Imagine that!

The Greek renders that word 'money' as arguriou, which is defined by my Greek Dictionary as 'CASH'. The Hebrew means 'silver', that is, money. Folks were to sell their tithe, for CASH (actually, SILVER), and once in Jerusalem they were to use that CASH (silver money) to BUY stuff to eat and drink, and they themselves were to EAT the TITHE, along with the Levite.

Why is this not taught as part of the modern 'tithe' doctrine?

Because the modern 'tithe' doctrine is simply not found in the Bible.

If it was, it would have been spelled out, 'thus saith the LORD', chapter and verse. Instead, vague allusions mentioning the word tithe, or mentioning giving, are supplied, with no dEFINITIONS or EXPLANATIONS FROM SCRIPTURE as to WHAT, HOW, WHEN, WHERE, from WHOM and to WHOM, etc.

Ergo, the modern 'tithe' doctrine is a recent, unbiblical invention of men.

Which by the way, I PROVED in a previous post in this thread (that it was INVENTED in the late 19th century) and which was left untouched by any rebuttal.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Esaias

.

Which by the way, I PROVED in a previous post in this thread (that it was INVENTED in the late 19th century) and which was left untouched by any rebuttal.

That's because some of the stuff you say, doesn't require rebuttal but only a stare and a blink blink blink and then a slight chuckle.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Esaias

From Webster's 1828:
currency

CURRENCY, n. [See Current.]

1. Literally, flowing, running or passing; a continued or uninterrupted course, like that of a stream; as the currency of time.
2. A continued course in public opinion, belief or reception; a passing from person to person, or from age to age; a, a report has had a long or general currency.
3. A continual passing from hand to hand, as coin or bills of credit; circulation; as the currency of cents, or of English crowns; the currency of bank bills or treasury notes.
4. Fluency; readiness of utterance; but in this sense we generally use fluency.
5. General estimation; the rate at which any thing is generally valued.
He takes greatness of kingdoms according to their bulk and currency, and not after intrinsic value.
6. That which is current or in circulation, as a medium of trade. The word may be applied to coins, or to bills issued by authority. It is often applied to bank notes, and to notes issued by government.

Let us assume for the moment that you are correct, that 'currency' did not exist prior to 600 BC. If that were true, then the tithe does not respect currency, since the Law was given almost 1000 years prior to the invention of 'currency'. Therefore, nobody is or can be required to pay tithes of 'currency', such as cash, coin, check, or electronic funds transfer or direct deposit, credit accounts, stocks, bonds, bearrer bonds, bank drafts, bank notes, promissory notes, etc.

Thank you for making our point.

Now, as for the rest of your post, you said that based upon my argument, there was never a need for the invention of currency. I am amazed you would say such a thing. Surely you are smarter than that. Who wants to carry gold nuggets, when they can carry a gold coin, with a government's seal of authenticity and guarantee of value and actual metallic content and purity? And who wants to carry gold coins when they carry slips of paper equivalent in exchange? And who wants to carry slips of paper when they carry a plastic card? And who wants to carry a plastic card when they could just scan their iris, fingerprints, palm print, or do a DNA sample, or retinal scan, or face print? (Or scan an implanted biochip? lol)

Gold and silver, jewels, nuggets, rocks (diamonds, rubies, etc), rings, crowns, shields, etc etc etc were used in barter. Barter means trading one thing for another. If I trade or barter with you for something, and what you give me is something I can for example eat or wipe my behind with, and what I give you is something you can trade or barter for something you can actually directly use, consume, eat, wipe, or whatever, then I gave you MONEY or it's direct equivalent - a means of exchange.

Something that has EQUIVALENT value to an end-use product or service.

But hey lookie here:

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

Wow, who'd a thunk it? When the law of the tithe was given, they had MONEY! Imagine that!

The Greek renders that word 'money' as arguriou, which is defined by my Greek Dictionary as 'CASH'. The Hebrew means 'silver', that is, money. Folks were to sell their tithe, for CASH (actually, SILVER), and once in Jerusalem they were to use that CASH (silver money) to BUY stuff to eat and drink, and they themselves were to EAT the TITHE, along with the Levite.

Why is this not taught as part of the modern 'tithe' doctrine?

Because the modern 'tithe' doctrine is simply not found in the Bible.

If it was, it would have been spelled out, 'thus saith the LORD', chapter and verse. Instead, vague allusions mentioning the word tithe, or mentioning giving, are supplied, with no dEFINITIONS or EXPLANATIONS FROM SCRIPTURE as to WHAT, HOW, WHEN, WHERE, from WHOM and to WHOM, etc.

Ergo, the modern 'tithe' doctrine is a recent, unbiblical invention of men.

Which by the way, I PROVED in a previous post in this thread (that it was INVENTED in the late 19th century) and which was left untouched by any rebuttal.

Coins and Currency
In 600 B.C., Lydia's King Alyattes minted the first official currency. The coins were made from electrum, a mixture of silver and gold that occurs naturally, and stamped with pictures that acted as denominations. In the streets of Sardis, circa 600 B.C., a clay jar might cost you two owls and a snake. Lydia's currency helped the country increase both its internal and external trade, making it one of the richest empires in Asia Minor. It is interesting that when someone says, "as rich as Croesus", they are referring to the last Lydian king who minted the first gold coin.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...s_of_money.asp


I see you cannot answer the questions I asked either...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Coins and Currency
In 600 B.C., Lydia's King Alyattes minted the first official currency. The coins were made from electrum, a mixture of silver and gold that occurs naturally, and stamped with pictures that acted as denominations. In the streets of Sardis, circa 600 B.C., a clay jar might cost you two owls and a snake. Lydia's currency helped the country increase both its internal and external trade, making it one of the richest empires in Asia Minor. It is interesting that when someone says, "as rich as Croesus", they are referring to the last Lydian king who minted the first gold coin.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...s_of_money.asp


I see you cannot answer the questions I asked either...

Ah, so I guess Investopedia is right and the Holy Bible is wrong? I gave you the scripture showing the relationship between money and tithe. I see you ignored that.

As for the questions you asked, I didn't see any questions?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Ah, so I guess Investopedia is right and the Holy Bible is wrong? I gave you the scripture showing the relationship between money and tithe. I see you ignored that.

As for the questions you asked, I didn't see any questions?

Facts are stubborn things. You are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts.

It is a Historical archaeological FACT that currency as we know it did not exist until about 600 years before Christ.

The "scripture" you gave was a translation to help people who cannot read Hebrew.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pliny

I will try to get to this some time this week. I am very busy and I am sure you are as well. Since I am here and have but a couple moments I will ask this:
You have stated that money is used in the text of Genesis 32 times. The term used is a translation.

The term "money" for example is the Hebrew word keseph.
According to BDB
BDB Definition:
1) silver, money
1a) silver
1a1) as metal
1a2) as ornament
1a3) as colour
1b) money, shekels, talents

Also in Genesis it states: (Gen 43:21 KJV) And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.

The "money" was not currency. It was precious metals that was weighed out in bartering. Currency, as is known in the 21st century was not in existence until the end of the OT. The Bible was not written in a vacuum as you well know. It was written in a historical context. The context of money then is not even close to today.

BTW there is no need for you to get testy with me. I have been respectful of you.
(Your man-made description is irrelevant to me)

Abraham did not practice child sacrifice, temple prostitution or sodomy. Therein lies the difference. He did practice tithing.

Tithing once (on other people's possessions) does not constitute a "practice".

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Yeah, same ol drum beat. Abraham tithed on property that did not belong to him. Jacob tithed once on wealth/assets, not income.

God did not command either to tithe.

What do you not get about that?

The property actually DID belong to him. He refused to accept it and GAVE it back. It was his to do with. The kings of Sodom and Gomorrah even said so. Sorry. You are just wrong.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Tithing once (on other people's possessions) does not constitute a "practice".

Who taught Abraham to tithe?
Why did Jacob even mention tithing?
Where did it all begin?
Where does the bible specifically say it stopped?


Take Care